I haven't been well these past few days and can concentrate on nothing more strenuous than Girlsown literature - so I'm having an EJO-fest. Was very amused, on reading "Sylvia of Sarn" to find that the "big house" there was called Plasgwyn (all one word). So that's where EBD got the name from!

There are plenty of other examples of EBD plagiarising EJO, most notably the Swiss sanatorium/school(s). Can anybody else who knows both authors think of any other specific examples? Folk-dancing and Guides, of course, but then most GO authors of the day used them.....

To be fair, Plas Gwyn is a very common name in Wales, so it could just be a coincidence .

I'm sure I read somewhere that Lilamani was the name of the heroine of a popular book in EBD's time, but EBD probably wouldn't have been very familiar with Kashmiri names and would've had to get one from somewhere .

With a lot of things, I think it's a case of tropes more than plagiarism, although the sheets and pillowcases parties are apparently straight out of a book by Mrs George de Horne Vaizey!

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We really must stop eating like this ...

Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

It's not plagiarism, exactly, but in The School by the River she does a kind of crossover with some of the characters from the much-maligned Elsie books. It's very obvious that that's who she's talking about and there's no sense she's trying to pass these characters off as her own - she's just having a bit of fun. It's very meta for EBD...

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http://www.tryingtobegrownup.com

EBD also uses the Judgement Day story from LMM - either Story Girl or Golden Road, can't remember which - in one of the Guernsey stories - Seven Scamps, I think.

I think Plas Gwyn could just be a coincidence - it means the White House, ewhich is a pretty common name.

Plas Gwyn was the name of Elgar's house which was in and around the Hereford area, and we know EBD was a bit of a fan of his Pomp and Circumstance... so I've always thought she got the name from there.

And i'm sure you know that EJO based a number of her Cheltenham characters on perfectly real people, only barely disguised? My Gran worked for Cecil Sharp House in the '60s, and knew some of them. (that's also where we got a large amount of our Abbey School collection when they cleared out double copies... ) I see to remember Granny saying there were a few of them who didn't totally appreciate being fictionalised! "The Pixie" was completely real, back story and all - and Granny worked with "Madam"! Whereas I get the notion EBD using Miss Durrant to tell the girls about the Cambridge Folk School (it is the Cambridge, isn't it?) was certainly inspired by EJO if not really plagiarism...

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"...but remember for your guidance in hours of peril, that the soul of man is unconquerable; no pain, no ignominy from without, can ever crush or smirch it, however much spirit and flesh may suffer." Far Away Moses

The EJO Society published The Fine Companion, Hilary Clare's brilliant book on 'The Pixie', last year - see their Publication News page - and copies are still available.

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to be nobody but yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting.
e.e.cummings
http://stitchwords.blogspot.co.uk

In defence of EBD, it's only plagiarism if a writer copies chunks of text without acknowledging the original author, which I don't think EBD ever did. The worst she can be accused of is lack of originality in some of her ideas - but no more so than many other writers, and she was very original in other areas of her work.

There's no ownership of ideas (and aren't there supposed to be only seven distinct plots anyway?) Someone tried to sue JKR on the grounds that she - the other author - came up with the idea of a school for wizards first, but lost on the grounds that anyone can have an idea - and I think JKR was able to show that she'd come up with the idea independently.

It's why fanfic is such a grey area.

You can copyright the expression of the idea but not the idea itself.

*nods sagely and tries to look like she knows what she's doing for that exam*

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"His distinguished air, his handsome dark face, his composed attitude - for he stood perfectly still with one hand at his side - gave singular effect to the circumstance of his being without a hat." - 'Tales of Angria'

Yes, I did know that - The Abbey Girls Go Back to School is dedicated to "Madam" and "The Pixie" under their real names. I gather they didn't really appreciate being fictionalised which is why in later books she just refers to "Headquarters" and it's Tazy Kingston, now Thistleton, who comes and teaches the next generation of folk dancers!

My daughter has been to a couple of ceilidhs at Cecil Sharp House and loves them - I keep meaning to go, but somehow never know when they are on.

I'm not surprised they weren't very pleased . I'd be horrified if anyone put me into a book without asking - although I might forgive them if I got to be the heroine and save everyone else and marry the top doctor . A lot of characters in books must be loosely based on people whom the author knew, but I gather that it was blatantly obvious whom the EJO characters were based on . In one way it'd be very flattering, but it'd also be rather embarrassing.

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We really must stop eating like this ...

Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

I've never read any EJO....should I bother?

Mrs Redboots - hope you're feeling better!

But don't discount the author's moral rights in the work, which can get you into trouble if you get TOO close to the line in satire/imitation. And, by the same token, there may be a cause of action in defamation if a character is TOO close to a real person and potentially harms their reputation (though that's a lot more of a stretch).

Definitely worth it, I'd say - they have quite a different atmosphere from the CS (lots of titles, country houses and folk dancing).

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"And I'm sure there was blood in the gutter from somebody's head, or else it was the sunset in a puddle."

So This is School! - Review: JP of the Fifth by Margaret Griffiths

I'd also recommend trying the Abbey books . As Abi says, they have a different atmosphere from the CS books - I find they have more of a period feel to them (she was about 15 years older than EBD), with much more of a "separate spheres" feel (the men hardly feature at all, and the women get to go off to country dancing weekends when they're young, free 'n' single) and most of the characters being higher up the social ladder than the CS folk.

I do actually prefer EJO's Swiss books, and it does have to be said that the theme of a boarding school close to a sanatorium for TB patients in the Alps does sound very familiar, and EJO's school/San link did come first .

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We really must stop eating like this ...

Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

On that note, I got a phone call from sister in law yesterday, to tell the most bizarre thing I've heard in a long while... In Belfast, there is an amazing crime/Irish fiction bookshop called No Alibis. It's run by a lovely chap, whose name I can't recall right now. Apparently, somebody has written, and published, a series of mystery novels, with this man as the central character. Not fictionalised at all - only the storylines are fiction.

If that were me, I'd be a wee bit freaked out.

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I would also recommend EJO, Pado, although I've only read the Abbey books, and only as far as the beginning of the second generation.

Abbeybufo - thanks for that, I might just see about getting it for Granny. (...not for me, at all, of course! )

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"...but remember for your guidance in hours of peril, that the soul of man is unconquerable; no pain, no ignominy from without, can ever crush or smirch it, however much spirit and flesh may suffer." Far Away Moses

I wonder how you'd prove that any given person in a book was based on you though? And would you want to admit it, if the writer had created a nasty character? Would you really want to stand up in court and say "I know it's me because I really am that mean/low/spiteful in real life"?

Well I think the clue is in the fact that he looks the same, speaks the same and has the same name, address and occupation...

From what SiL says, the guy knows about it and is at least fairly comfortable with it - which I'd say makes him unusual, but then I knew he was unusual, in a nice way, already!

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"...but remember for your guidance in hours of peril, that the soul of man is unconquerable; no pain, no ignominy from without, can ever crush or smirch it, however much spirit and flesh may suffer." Far Away Moses

I would never put anyone into a book. (Coughs.) I do, however, take snippets from a lot of people and make a patchwork character. That way nobody recognises themselves because the composite has so many other facets that are different. I often change the gender too, just to make sure. I did once put someone into a short story and wondered if she'd recognise herself. 'Goodness,' she said, 'you've got so-and-so (another acquaintance) off to a T.'

I've also had to pin a smile on my face when people smile archly and say, 'Oh dear, must watch what I say or you'll be putting me into a book!' (Not unless I want someone very boring, is the answer I don't give.)

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I think someone would be more likely to stand up in court and say "I know it's me because of physical description, name, occupation, striking similarities in personal history etc. - and I'm suing BECAUSE I'm not that mean/low/spiteful in real life". I can't see anyone thinking it's worthwhile going to court unless the book had a real negative impact on their life, either by including fictional occurrences that people might take as being factual, that actually damage their reputation or by implying a false fact that endangers their safety/quality of life.

And, just to play Devil's Advocate: I've read quite a lot of GO and other authors, and there has only ever been one writer whose books I've wanted to throw across the room: EJO. There are plenty of authors I don't personally enjoy, but only EJO has ever made me feel inclined to violence.



Actually, EBD did copy sentences and passages pretty much verbatim from Mrs George de Horne Vaizey, without any acknowledgement at all. It's really quite eye-opening.

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The Chalet School has done it again!