#1: The Fifth Form Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, EnglandPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:20 pm I did try and post this on Sunday. Given it's really, REALLY not shown up now, I think I'm safe to try posting it again...
Is it just me, or does EBD rather arbitrarily switch where the senior school begins somewhere around about the point they move to Switzerland?
In the Swiss books, lower fifth is the lowest senior form until Inter V is created in New Mistress.
Yet in, I think, Carola, Lower V is defined as being senior middles, and not just once, but repeatedly throughout the book, AND, from what I remember of the rest of the Island books, that definition is fairly consistant throughout the time on the Island.
Is it the Swiss books that are 'wrong', or is it just a gross EBDism on the Island and it doesn't apply to any other section of the timeline? Are Lower V seniors or middles?...!
Ray *been saving all her questions up...*
#2: Author: Angel, Location: London, EnglandPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:21 pm Weren't a lot of seniors lost at the time of Island, thereby leading to a wholesale re-jigging of forms? I thought that was why Vb were senior middles at that time.
#3: Author: claire, Location: South WalesPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:43 pm Maybe Senior Middles was defined by age rather than form and they were a young form (OK I know I'm grasping at straws but in Changes (I think) you went from Junior Middle to Senior Middle on your Fourteenth birthday)
#4: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, EnglandPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:46 pm Hmmm. It could be. But then, on THAT definition, how would you define the Triplets in the mid-Swiss books (eg New Mistress), where they're seniors by fact of being in Inter V despite not being 13 (?)
Ray *ebdism*
#5: Author: Amanda M, Location: WakefieldPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:35 pm Maybe there were different criteria for Joey's children
#6: Author: Susan, Location: CarlislePosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:04 pm Jo's children were definitley treated differently to all the rest of the school.
#7: Author: catherine, Location: YorkPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:00 pm I have a feeling the Senior/Senior Middle status was defined by age in the English books but it changed in the Swiss Books to be defined by form. Possibly because the girls who made up the forms were all of an age to be the right status - if you see what I mean!!!
As for the trips - it seems to come down to the fact that they were advanced for their age and their time in Canada had given them an older outlook on life. Can you imagine what that form would have been like if it had had Senior Middles and Seniors in it?!! If it had then you would have had to say that Yseult Pertwee was a Senior - yet Len and Con, at least, were ten times more responsible than she was!! And what about Emerence Hope?! She'd have been counted as a Senior too while some of the more responsible girls had a lower status!
#8: Author: Lisa_T, Location: BelfastPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:06 pm This question was discussed when they talk about setting up Inter V- Nell says, if I remember rightly, that you 'can't have children of twelve in any Fifth...' and while Inter V is a senior form, it seems to be rather hybrid and there are references to being in Vb and 'definitely senior.' perhaps it was the establishment of Inter V that altered the definition permanently? Cos that happens quite early in the Swiss books.
#9: Author: Jennie, Location: CambridgeshirePosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:16 pm Va and Vb are senior forms, whilst Inter-V is a middle form.
#10: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, EnglandPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:21 pm Inter V isn't a middle form, though; it's explicitly said on several occasions that it's the lowest senior form. It's defined as such in New Mistress when it's set up, it's repeated in Ruey and I'm sure it's repeated elsewhere, too.
Ray **
#11: Author: catherine, Location: YorkPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:24 pm It is definitely a Senior form and I'm sure it's said almost every time the form is mentioned. In some ways, I suppose, it was between 'Senior Middle' and 'Senior' - a form in preparation for being a Senior but not quite real Seniors.
#12: Author: Angel, Location: London, EnglandPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:39 pm I always got the impression that Inter V could lose its privileges far more easily than any other Senior form, and that they could have easily been re-ranked as Middles. I also get the feeling they were more closely supervised.
#13: Author: claire, Location: South WalesPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:02 pm Weren't the girls told at one point that if the form as a whole didn't improve they would be renamed Inter IV and be a middle form instead of senior?
#14: Author: catherine, Location: YorkPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:41 pm Yes but I think that only ever applied to the first Inter V. I don't think it ever happens again.
#15: Author: Lisa_T, Location: BelfastPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:58 pm Yes that's right, that's what i meant. They were a senior form, but because of the average age of that first cohort, they were really more like Middles than Seniors and it was feasible for the Head to make that threat. I doubt she would have done it with an Inter V whose average age was 15/16.
#16: Author: Lesley, Location: Rochester, KentPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:47 am In New Mistress, when Kathie Ferrars is taking Inter V for prep and Miss Annersley appears and lectures them, she later speaks to Kathie and says that although Inter V is a Senior form, many of the girls still think of themselves as Middles.
#17: Author: Jennie, Location: CambridgeshirePosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:13 pm I just wish EBD hadn't created quite so many EBD'isms.
#18: Author: catherine, Location: YorkPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:18 pm LOL Jennie! Don't we all?!!!
#19: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West YorksPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:17 pm
Jennie wrote:
I just wish EBD hadn't created quite so many EBD'isms.