EBD and children
The CBB -> Anything Else
#1: EBD and children Author: Sam a guest,  PostPosted: 04 Feb 2004 11:12 pm

Until I had a baby, I didn't notice the EBD depiction of small children. Does anyone else think that her fictional babies/toddlers are unnaturally well behaved and frequently unnaturally advanced (especially speech)?

 

#2:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 04:55 am

I think it's certainly very idealistic, but I suppose EBD had so little to do with small children that she could only guess at their progress.

 

#3:  Author: Chelsea, Location: Your Imagination PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 05:07 am

I agree that EBD description of young children is generally quite off base. Usually they are prodegies, but occasionally they act much younger than they should.

 

#4:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 05:08 am

I wonder if she realised her errors or whether she was blissfully unaware of them...

 

#5:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 10:32 am

Some of the illustrations don't help either. Even older girls are made to look very young.

 

#6:  Author: Katarzyna, Location: Preston, Lancashire PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 10:34 am

I would probably guess on blissfully unaware

If she had so little to do with children then she probably wouldn't realise that she had portrayed them inaccurately, particularly as they never feature as a major role in the books.

I doubt that the people who read the books when they first came out would have been the sort to write to her to tell her

 

#7:  Author: Rachael,  PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 10:52 am

LOL!

But don't forget they've all been trained from babyhood to "instant obedience"!?! Wink

*wondering whether there's any handbooks out there for aspiring parents!*

 

#8:  Author: Angel, Location: London, England PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 11:11 am

I wonder.

I'm wondering how much babyhood differed with the change of pace. What I mean - relatively few additives, mothers who didn't work, wireless but relatively little tv and mothers who prayed regularly. The latter, because prayer can have an effect like yoga leaving one chilled out. As well, there were experienced nannies, who had some idea of what to expect.

If you compare the obedience in the von Trapp family (which is based on a true story) and other eastern european stories of the era, it's a more common pattern in that class.

There's also a massive dose of unrealism in there, but it may be mitigated by the above.

 

#9:  Author: PatMac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 11:23 am

Rachael wrote:
*wondering whether there's any handbooks out there for aspiring parents!*


Quote from "I can't see what all the fuss is about" By Josephine M Maynard

'to impress your friends, play slidies in the hall with them. When the children get overexcited, ring for a faithful factotum to take them away before they are sick.'

'Start off with triplet girls so you have plenty of help later.'

' to cut down on the laundry, send the boys to boarding school as early as possible.'

 

#10:  Author: Kathryn, Location: Melbourne/Hamilton until 11 September PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 12:03 pm

Wasn't there a scene where someone says that the Triplets looked so cute with cups and spoons and they were only six months old! So while EBD may have had experience with older kids, babies and toddlers were out of her sphere.

 

#11:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 12:33 pm

Yes it's in 'Goes To It' (War for those with later editions) when they have been rescued from the boat. I alway think it's a weird scene that one. EBD never mentions personal habits (going to the loo etc.) why suddenly cos Jo's been ill a couple of days say this to show the triplets are on to solid food. It's the other reference that's part of this scene that bugs me 'Jo discovered she had to cast her babies.' As a youngster it took me ages to work out what this meant why did she did put it in?

 

#12:  Author: Rachael,  PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 12:56 pm

So that's nothing to do with knitting then?

*assumes innocent expression*

*Makes mental note to buy "I Can't See What All The Fuss Is About"*

 

#13:  Author: Katarzyna, Location: Preston, Lancashire PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 01:06 pm

Do you reckon we could use pester power to get PatMac to write "I can't see what all the fuss is about" as a drabble?

anyone got any suggestions for the chapter headings for her

 

#14:  Author: PatMac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 01:25 pm

Willing to try! I'm wrestling with my first attempt at something more serious at the moment and I know where I start and (I think) where I end but the middle is only there in odd bits. I'm beginning to think I bit off more than I can chew at present Sad , so some light relief would be good!

 

#15:  Author: Katarzyna, Location: Preston, Lancashire PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 01:31 pm

*extremely excited at prospect of new drabble*

I wouldn't worry too much about the route your characters take to get them from start to finish. Bear in mind though that this is simply because that is how I write - with no clear idea of where i'm going or what's going to happen!

Will look forward to both that and the handbook!!

 

#16:  Author: PatMac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 01:42 pm

OK, Kate, I'll have a go. On the serious one, it needs to tie in with the books rather closely and I'm having to read some of them rather carefully because the bits I'm looking for don't get a lot prominence and although I can remember them being somewhere, I can't recall where! Crying or Very sad

 

#17:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 02:01 pm

The handbook sounds great. It's a shame Madge never read it with regards to Sybil

 

#18:  Author: Nell, Location: London, England PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 02:51 pm

Please try the handbook it could be very amusing...

 

#19:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 02:57 pm

Rachael wrote:
So that's nothing to do with knitting then?

*assumes innocent expression*

*Makes mental note to buy "I Can't See What All The Fuss Is About"*


I always thought it had to do with fishing

assumes even more innocent look Rolling Eyes

 

#20:  Author: Kat, Location: Swansea PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 03:47 pm

Im very confused - what exactly does this mean??

'Jo discovered she had to cast her babies.' ?

*A very confused Kat*

 

#21:  Author: Katarzyna, Location: Preston, Lancashire PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 03:54 pm

Maybe she felt that they would need parts in the next christmas play Joey was writing!

 

#22:  Author: Rachael,  PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 04:21 pm

Kat - I've never even heard the epxression before (assume it's used in the HB, not PB, or I'm just unobservant) but I've interpreted it as "weaning" i.e. casting off the breast ...............

 

#23:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 04:26 pm

I certainly don't remember it in the pb, but I took it to mean weaning, too.

 

#24:  Author: Chloë, Location: London: when away from home planet! PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 06:06 pm

But lots of books and tv shows seem to idealise children and babies in the time EBD lived

 

#25:  Author: claire, Location: SOUTH WALES PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 08:25 pm

I've only heard it in EBD books, Janie casts Vi in one of the La Rochelle books, but it's definately stopping breastfeeding there's something in exile about Jo not wanting to but being told that she can't even feed one of them - I can just imagine the pain Jo would have been in at that point, it hurts enough if you completely cut off the feeds with only one baby, with three she must have exploding all over the place - literally

 

#26:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 08:32 pm

I think that was because she probably had to take medication to bring down her fever and there would have been fear that it would go through the milk to the babies.

 

#27:  Author: Ianswythe,  PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 08:55 pm

To get slightly of the topic of casting? babies what always amazes/amuses me is that EBD had girls of 16 picking up girls of 12 as if they were babes of 3. It is like when Hilary has Robin up on her shoulders in Exile and then Robin jumps from there to the ledge! I know Robin was a slight, petite child but she must have been about 13 at that point and Hilary was only 16 or 17. I wouldn't like to horse a 13 year old about the place now far less when I was 16.

 

#28:  Author: Angel, Location: London, England PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 09:44 pm

Then again, Su used to do that regularly at school. We had some small 12-13 year olds in the boarding house, and they'd regularly be manhandled, and we'd play piggy-back-polo and things like that in the gardens. If you've always done it, it's not nearly so noticeable, hence Nina having the trouble in 'Genius'. (Armada should be massacred for Genius/Fete)

 

#29:  Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 09:53 pm

The references to breastfeeding are interesting. Also an oblique one to menopause, in the HB/ transcript of Ruey, when Evvy announces her pregnancy and she adds a commment about being relieved cos she thought she was too old. In the late 30s?!

The other thing is I was flicking through an NCC journal last night and it was talking about memories of EBD and it said that a young unmarried friend of hers discovered that she was pregnant, and was cut off from her family, and EBD supported her financially for a time. Thought that was rather sweet!

Re kids- look at the trips in Gay. They can't pronounce an 'r' but then if you compare them to Ramses in EP Curse of the Pharoahs/Mummy Case they suddenly look a lot more normal.... Laughing

 

#30:  Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England PostPosted: 05 Feb 2004 10:52 pm

She seemed to have no idea of the normal milestones in general development and rushed the babies and toddlers through them, but then kept them childlike for far too long, they all seemed to act as babies until they were at least 11/12 and old enough for III form.

 

#31:  Author: Vikki, Location: Possibly in hell! It's certainly hot enough....... PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 02:08 am

She did seem to have some rather funny ideas!!!

 

#32:  Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 02:14 am

I take it you mean funny-peculiar..
*jumps with joy* I've passed 400 at last!

 

#33:  Author: Vikki, Location: Possibly in hell! It's certainly hot enough....... PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 02:58 am

Congratulations Lisa, and yes, I meant funny peculiar!!!

 

#34:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 07:43 am

Well done, Lisa!

But are we comparing our society to theirs? Children were considered to remain children for a lot longer than is normal now, so perhaps they fulfilled expectations by acting that way too.

 

#35:  Author: Sarah_L, Location: Redcar PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 01:11 pm

For a good example of how children were supposed to behave, I'd recommend reading Anne Frank's diary. In some ways she seems more like a modern girl than a 1940s girl, but in other respects she remains childish, and the adults do think of her as a child.

 

#36:  Author: Vikki, Location: Possibly in hell! It's certainly hot enough....... PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 06:09 pm

Yes, definitely in the pre war years, adults regarded anyone under the age of 18 as a child! There were no such things as teenagers!!

 

#37:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 06:25 pm

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the word 'teenager' only made it into modern language in the 1950s.

 

#38:  Author: claire, Location: SOUTH WALES PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 08:55 pm

If Evvy felt too old in her thirties what must she have thought of Madge? She must have been well into her forties when expecting the twins.
All the girls seem really happy that their mothers are having/or have had a new baby - most teenagers nowadays (no matter how thrilled they are afterwards) would have the initial thought of 'oh no my parents are still having sex'

 

#39:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 09:10 pm

But Madge had had children before.

 

#40:  Author: Jennifer, Location: Sunny California PostPosted: 06 Feb 2004 10:01 pm

By modern standards the whole maturity progression is odd. Joey (among others) comments that they like to keep the girls young as long as possible - Mary-Lou blushes and stammers over the mere concept of 'talking about boys' in Problem. Joey herself doesn't even notice her sister's pregnancy when Sybil is born and she was in her teens then.

However, they seem to be expected to go from a complete child to married and having babies within a year or two of finishing school. Joey doesn't have any problem with Len being engaged to a man ten years older while still in school, even though she's deliberately kept the girls very sheltered growing up. Letting your daughters and students get engaged and married while they still have the outlook and experience of a child just seems dangerous to me, particularly as they've grown up in an environment where they very rarely encounter boys other than their brothers and cousins.

Even compared to other books I've read set in that era or earlier it seems odd. In Cheaper by the Dozen (the book, not the movie) the girls are arguing with their father about dating while in high school, and this is set pre World War II. Even in books like the Anne of Green Gables series which were set pre World War I, the school kids talk about crushes, and who likes who, and have boys walking girls home from school. All very innocent by today's standards, but it's still there.

 

#41:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 05:49 am

I really think it all comes down to how much EBD herself knew. She was obviously fairly naive as to these matters, hence the errors.

 

#42:  Author: Sarah_L, Location: Redcar PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 01:26 pm

How much do you think the tone of the CS books would have changed if EBD had got married and had children? Would her increased life experience have reflected on her characters?

 

#43:  Author: PatMac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 02:46 pm

Jennifer wrote:
In Cheaper by the Dozen (the book, not the movie) the girls are arguing with their father about dating while in high school, and this is set pre World War II. Even in books like the Anne of Green Gables series which were set pre World War I, the school kids talk about crushes, and who likes who, and have boys walking girls home from school. All very innocent by today's standards, but it's still there.


I loved Cheaper By the Dozen! I hadn't thought about either of those in the context of comparison with CS, but you are quite right. Is the difference due to the fact that in the CS, the children are isolated in a single sex school and even at home live in 'The Big House' outside a village and, even if allowed to mix with the village children would have nothing in common with them. In fact, you'd probably get reverse snobbishness because the local children would make fun of the 'posh' accents.

 

#44:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 02:46 pm

But would she have any time to write so much as she did?? What would have happened if she could not find her own Anna?

 

#45:  Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 04:52 pm

claire wrote:
If Evvy felt too old in her thirties what must she have thought of Madge? She must have been well into her forties when expecting the twins.
All the girls seem really happy that their mothers are having/or have had a new baby - most teenagers nowadays (no matter how thrilled they are afterwards) would have the initial thought of 'oh no my parents are still having sex'

Yes, but they wouldn't kow about sex in those days! probably thought babies just happened after you got married! Mum says that she had to tell her mother what the connection was! So there wouldn't have been that mebarrassment for kids then!

 

#46:  Author: Catriona, Location: South Yorkshire PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 05:36 pm

Felt I had to go and look at my copy of CS at War (p/b, 1988) where it says "......she must stop feeding her babies herself at once." How had she managed to breastfeed triplets for almost 6 months, given she had been out and about, singing away, and visiting people all over the island? Am also wondering how big these prams/cradles were which could contain three babies at once. Also think that she must have had a large amount of Matey's sedatives to hand as her children seemed to sleep inordinate amounts (except when they were teething, of course).

 

#47:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 06:03 pm

She was obviously very talented, Catriona! Wink

 

#48:  Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 10:19 pm

Joey was supermother!!

Actually the pram was probably one of the large coach built things and would fit trips at least while babies.

The feeding escapes me, although lots of people say ot's perfectly possible top totaly breastfeed twins so maybe it is tris as well, although I can't see it would leave any time or energy for anything else, even with an Anna. Being unable to do it for a single child I'm very jealous.

 

#49:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: 07 Feb 2004 10:25 pm

Catriona wrote:
Felt I had to go and look at my copy of CS at War (p/b, 1988) where it says "......she must stop feeding her babies herself at once." How had she managed to breastfeed triplets for almost 6 months, given she had been out and about, singing away, and visiting people all over the island? Am also wondering how big these prams/cradles were which could contain three babies at once. Also think that she must have had a large amount of Matey's sedatives to hand as her children seemed to sleep inordinate amounts (except when they were teething, of course).


Goes to it was obviously updated when it was changed to War, makes it easier to know what it really means.

 

#50:  Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 03:57 am

I imagined the baby carriage to be about like the one we had when I was young -- big enough that one day at the playground when my sister the 3rd had an accident, at least 3 of us were loaded in so my mother could get back to the apartment fast without leaving anyone behind.

Interesting fact: the local day care near my house in Indy takes walks with a pair of 9-seat strollers. I doubt they existed back then, though!

 

#51:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 06:01 am

*wonders what nine babies at once would be called*

*wouldn't put it above Joey to try*

 

#52:  Author: claire, Location: SOUTH WALES PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 10:21 pm

I have heard of people breastfeeding triplets and the advice they are given is to express as much as possible as soon as possible so all three can be fed (one expressed milk from a bottle, one on either breast) would be VERY time consuming, even saying Jo gets them into a 4 hourly routine it would be about 2 hours by the time all three are changed, fed and sorted

 

#53:  Author: Chelsea, Location: Your Imagination PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 10:26 pm

KB wrote:
*wonders what nine babies at once would be called*

*wouldn't put it above Joey to try*


I think they'd be - nontuplets.

 

#54:  Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England PostPosted: 08 Feb 2004 11:08 pm

Chelsea wrote:
KB wrote:
*wonders what nine babies at once would be called*

*wouldn't put it above Joey to try*


I think they'd be - nontuplets.


I think they would be a medical marvel. Or a mother's nightmare.

 

#55:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 09 Feb 2004 07:06 am

*lol* Probably both!

 

#56:  Author: PatMac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: 09 Feb 2004 09:16 am

claire wrote:
4 hourly routine it would be about 2 hours by the time all three are changed, fed and sorted


But Joey probably just fed them and passed them over for the changing etc. Even so it would have taken an hour! Supermum, Jo.

I don't think we hear about the feeding of any later children, do we? the trips were born right at the end of a phase where breast feeding was advised. I bet all the others were bottle fed.

 

#57:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 09 Feb 2004 09:35 am

We do hear about it occasionally. I think there is a mention of feeding in "Richenda", for instance, but they don't specify whether it's a bottle that's being used or if Jo is breastfeeding.

 

#58:  Author: Vikki, Location: Possibly in hell! It's certainly hot enough....... PostPosted: 09 Feb 2004 04:27 pm

I think Cecil may have been breast fed, judging by the beginning of Problem, but Phil and Geoff seem to have had bottles, it's mentioned in Joey and Co.

 

#59:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 09 Feb 2004 07:08 pm

Which 'beginning of Problem' are you referring to?

 

#60:  Author: Vikki, Location: Possibly in hell! It's certainly hot enough....... PostPosted: 09 Feb 2004 11:00 pm

Oh yeah! Embarassed Embarassed It's not the first chapter is it? The first time we see Jo in that book, where she's telling Len about Rosamund.

 

#61:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 08:13 am

Well, I also don't have my book with me, and no one's typed it up for the Transcripts site, so I can't check. Crying or Very sad

 

#62:  Author: pim, Location: the place where public transport doesn't work properly! PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 06:37 pm

Chelsea wrote:
KB wrote:
*wonders what nine babies at once would be called*

*wouldn't put it above Joey to try*


I think they'd be - nontuplets.


Would they not be noisy?

 

#63:  Author: claire, Location: SOUTH WALES PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 08:53 pm

I'm pretty sure that Stephen at least is also breastfed (in Jo to the rescue doesn't she go upstairs to 'see to his supper' after Simone has got him ready for bed.

 

#64:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: 10 Feb 2004 10:46 pm

That is the impression I get too, but I think he had a bottle now and again.
It is also hinted at when Jo and co go to see Phoebe at the San. Something like 'Stephen is too little for me to be away from him for too long.'

 

#65:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: 11 Feb 2004 07:34 am

pim wrote:
Would they not be noisy?


I think the simple answer to that is - YES!

 

The CBB -> Anything Else


output generated using printer-friendly topic mod, All times are GMT + 1 Hour

Page 1 of 1

Powered by phpBB 2.0.6 © 2001,2002 phpBB Group