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#1: Verity as a broken reed etc. Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:10 pm
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In which books, and by whom was Verity described as a 'broken reed' or similar? (In my head I have Joey or Miss Annersley saying something of the sort.)In my read-through I'm only at Mary-Lou where, if she is a mooner, or a girl of few words, she has a distinct personality, a certain steel to her, and more than one gift.

I know that the Verity of Three Go is flaked away at some point to become a weak figure (although I can see that she might easily have become someone you wouldn't/couldn't rely on in times of need as she is so used to being the one relying on others for practical matters). I just can't pinpoint the places where Verity as a character is (I feel) insulted.

Does anyone know off-hand? Even just with the book?

And has anyone written about Verity's stay at Freudesheim with the Maynards over Christmas while Mary-Lou is in the San and before Doris and Commander Carey come to Switzerland? (That's presuming this all still happens and there isn't some kind of turnaround to come - I'm not quite finished.)

Thanks, Catherine.

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:25 pm
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I'm not sure without looking, but it may be in Reunion when OOAO turns up.

It really annoys me how the strong character Verity is at first, and even the character she is later when we're told that she and Mary-Lou are good for each other because of their different personalities, is turned into a "broken reed" - or at least described as such!

Last edited by Alison H on Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

#3: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:26 pm
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The "broken reed" episode is in Joey & Co in Tyrol:

Quote:

“If,” said Madge with sudden gravity, “the worst happens where Roland Carey is concerned, at least Doris will have Mary-Lou to comfort her, as well as his girl, Verity.”
“What do you mean?”
“The old wound has flared up again and Doris and the girls are taking him to Glasgow for MacKenzie to see him again. You know what he said last time. If it should come to amputation, well, Roland is much frailer than he was last time. Jem says he doubts if he can come through.”
“Oh, Madge! Poor Doris!—and poor Mary-Lou, too, for if Doris is left alone, it’ll probably mean that Mary-Lou must give up her wish for archaeology as a career and she’s stuck to it that that’s what she wants to do for years, now.”
“I hadn’t thought of the effect on Mary-Lou; but you’re right, I’m afraid. She won’t leave her mother alone—that’s certain. And though Verity is a dear girl, she’s a broken reed when it comes to support. She’ll need support herself. Oh lets hope it won’t come to that, for everyone’s sake!”
There’s one thing,” Joey said, sitting up. “Mary-Lou is fine enough not to let it spoil her life. If she can’t have what she wants most, she’ll look about for the next best thing and go all out for it. But it is hard lines if that happens.”

There's also a bit in Wins the Trick:

Quote:

Len saw further into the future than she did. "I'm sorry for Verity and Auntie Doris," she returned in the same low tones, "but the one I'm sorriest for is Mary-¬Lou. I'll explain later."
There was no time for more. The second bell rang as she ended and silence fell. But the girls prayed very earnestly as they had been asked.
Later, when the younger ones had gone to bed and the Seniors were out in the garden, Len's own clan gathered round her and Con asked what she had meant.
"I know she'll be sorry, but after all, it isn't as if Uncle Roland had been her own father," she said. "I think it's worse for Verity."
Len stared at her. "Oh, don't you see?" she burst out. "This may mean the end of Mary-Lou's career!"
"But how?" Rosamund asked in puzzled tones.
"Of course it may – very likely will. What was she going in for?"
"Archaeology – after she was through with Oxford," Ruey Richardson said.
"Exactly! Well, that would almost certainly have meant that she had to go abroad. She's often said so. How can she do it now? Auntie Doris will want her. What's more, she'll need her. So, for that matter, will Verity. You know yourselves how Verity's always hung on to Mary-Lou. I'm awfully afraid this is going to mean that she must give it up altogether. She won't leave those two to struggle along as best they can while she's sporting about in the Middle East or Egypt or wherever else it would be."
"No; you're right there," Margot agreed. "Some folk might – but not Mary-Lou. Oh, Len! I do hope you're wrong! She's wanted it for such ages!"

Also in Reunion:

Quote:

"Oh, I know. Just at present, when there's so much to do and I'm so glad Mother's well and happy, I haven't much time to think about me. But I know that later on it'll come home much more sharply. But I'm not going to be a selfish ass and fret. I'm not utterly alone though I haven't any real relations left. You can't really count Verity and she'll be married in June, anyhow. But there's still Clem and Tony Barrass. They're almost as good as brother and sister to me. And there's Auntie Joey and Uncle Jack and all their crowd. Oh, I shall miss Mother horribly. I've had to look after her for so long now, for Dad was often too ill to do anything about it. And Verity, bless her, is a clinging vine, so I've just had to be an oak. It's going to be jolly lonesome sometimes. But I'm not going to be a selfish pig and make other folk miserable just because I'm not so awfully happy myself."

And in Triplets:

Quote:

“ You'll have to go, Joey,” he [Jack] said. “ We can't leave those poor girls alone at a time like this. Mary-Lou may be nearly twenty and out-of-the-way capable, but it's asking too much to ask her to cope with a situation like this unaided. As for Verity, she'll be no help - more like another liability.”

Quote:

“ At once - this morning, if possible! I left Jack hunting up planes for me. The sooner I get there, the better. Mary-Lou may be the last word in capability, but she is only nineteen. Verity will be no use - she's a leaner! I can't leave our one and only Mary-Lou to face such awful responsibilities alone. She knew that when she appealed to me like that.” Joey's tone suddenly changed.

Quote:

“ What about young Verity?” Con asked. “ She's a clinger, you know.”
Len looked thoughtful. “ She is -- but somehow I don't think it's Mary-Lou she'll cling to - or not for long.”
The other two turned startled eyes on her.
“ But, my dear! What do you mean?” Con queried.
“Just what I say. Verity's a clinging vine all right, but it won't be Mary-Lou who has to be her oak-tree.”
“ Do you mean that Verity will marry early?” Margot asked slowly. “ But, Len, she's not much more than a kid.”
“ She'll be twenty in May. Mamma wasn't much more when she married. And I rather think there's someone already. In her Christmas letter to me Mary-Lou talked of a girl she'd met at the Royal College. This girl - Enid Trevor, I think is her name - has a brother with a job in London. Verity and Enid are in the same hostel and they got pally. The brother - his name's Alan - took her to concerts and theatres and so on sometimes, and they included Verity. During the vac, the Trevors came over often to Carn Beg - they live near Monmouth - and Mary-Lou said they were all very good pals. By the way, she also said she liked them both herself. She didn't make a definite statement, but I could see that --- ”
“ That it won't be too long before Verity becomes Mrs Alan Trevor? That it?”
Len nodded. “ I'm almost positive. I only hope it works out. It would be the best thing all round for everyone. Verity would have someone decent to look and after her - Mary-Lou seems to think they're awfully nice people - and it would leave Mary-Lou herself free to do as she likes. And Auntie Doris would be glad, too, I should think, for both their sakes.”

#4: Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:34 pm
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Goodness, the poor girl does get a pounding, doesn't she? That's wonderful, just what I was after. I knew I had a build-up of resentment because of the Verity-bashing I'd read, and now I know why - it's pretty relentless and consistent defammation. Now I'm cross! Very Happy

#5: Author: Tan, Location: London via Newcastle Australia

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:02 pm
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The strange thing is that in Three Go she is such a determined and stubborn girl, so I can't understand the character change. Also, there is no mention of her being a 'mooner' in this book either.

#6: Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:22 pm
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No, I'm just at Mary-Lou now and she has been a mooner for the last couple of books, but I've been reading a bit lazily (and very slowly) and I can't recall quite when that started. In Mary-Lou I still find her quite a determined little character, though even then she gets the odd undermining slight in the narrative.

#7: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:05 pm
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Reading all of that is really relentless, isn't it? Especially as you have girls who are three years younger (triplets) saying the same. It was an exceptionally nasty piece of character assassination - after her initial outing in Three when she comes across as a very determined young person - setting herself against the entire School and Joey over the German thing.

Personally I like the drabble Jennie wrote that explains it all so well!

Edited to correct terrible spelling and typos!

Last edited by Lesley on Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total

#8: Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:35 pm
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Could you point me in the direction of the drabble, please? I dip in and out of them very occasionally these days, as I fear if I start reading them all I'll get hooked and the house will become even more chaotic. I like to read those I've heard of for a particular reason, like this.

#9: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:40 pm
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It's here, Catherine Very Happy

#10: Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:41 pm
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Thank-you. I shall explore tomorrow, now, I think. Smile

#11: Author: Ruth B, Location: Oxford, UK

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:48 am
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Quote:

I haven't any real relations left. You can't really count Verity and she'll be married in June, anyhow. But there's still Clem and Tony Barrass. They're almost as good as brother and sister to me.

After years of drilling into people that she and Verity were "Sisters-by-marriage" that seems really rather harsh!

#12: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:17 am
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I wonder if EBD was leading to a huge plot development relating to Mary-Lou - she seems quite determined to isolate her from everyone, but then didn't get chance to go through with it??

#13: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:34 am
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Lesley wrote:

Reading all of that is really relentless, isn't it? Especially as you have girls who are three years younger (triplets) saying the same. It was an exceptionally nasty piece of character assassination - after her initial outing in Three when she comes across as a very determined young person - setting herself against the entire School and Joey over the German thing.

She does have a brief resurgence of obstinacy in Trials when they're trapped in the hut and she insists on squeezing through a gap to get snow to make hot chocolate - or something. I don't temember it very clearly. But overall, EBD sems to have done a complete character transplant on Verity.

Jay B.

#14: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:56 pm
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Just to act as devil's advocate for a moment, I do feel very sorry for Mary Lou when her mother dies. Although people immediately feel sorry for her, they are quick to talk about Verity and the fact that she will have someone to depend on in her future husband. Mary Lou has to be strong and brave, always leading the way forward. It's interesting to compare the quote Grizel uses and the one Mary Lou herself puts foward when they meet in Reunion:

Quote:

"'One who never turned his back but marched breast forward'," Grizel quoted.
"That's Browning, isn't it? And there's that bit out of 'Invictus' – you know: 'I am the master of my fate'."

So Verity is allowed to get upset and mourn, but not our Mary Lou! Oh, no! She has to be strong, to support everyone else. But then they are almost circling and waiting for her to fall over, with even notoriously unsympathetic Grizel seeing that she is suffering. Why shouldn't she suffer? She's been watching her mother die for months while Verity has been away getting engaged and preparing to marry. I think it's pretty reasonable if she points out to a few people that actually she's totally alone and perhaps not coping with it all quite as well as they might have expected.

*shoos off plot bunny that is suggesting OOAO has actually been jealous of Verity for years and is now on the verge of a mental breakdown*

#15: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:16 pm
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*sends bunny food to Australia*

#16: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:44 pm
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The bit in Trials was when they were stuck in one of those huts that they always conveniently found during avalanches etc, and Verity insisted on leaning out of the window to get some snow for them to make hot drinks with. Mlle and Kathie were worried that she'd fall out/hurt herself, so Mary-Lou told her to stop and she did - but there is a comment about how stubborn Verity can be.

Considering how often people in the books say that Mary-Lou is Joey's spiritual heir or whatever, the 2 of them react totally differently when push really comes to shove. I'm not OOAO's biggest fan but I can't imagine her getting hysterical and being no help with the younger girls if she'd been involved in a situation like the escape across the Alps in Exile, or collapsing during a Channel crossing whilst her friends looked after her babies. It's quite interesting how the 2 main "heroines" are so different in that respect Rolling Eyes

#17: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:54 pm
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Pat wrote:

*sends bunny food to Australia*

*precipitately moves elsewhere*

#18: Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:11 am
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When it comes to Mary-Lou, I have no problem with her up to her book's name-sake. I'm not against the girl (anymore), though she's a very different type from me or the other characters with which I naturally identify. She isn't even the girl I would have, as a girl, aspired to be. But I didn't have a problem with her when I read the books as a child, or even during this read-through (though I'm not really at the most problematic parts yet). I think I may have been caught up in some anti-Mary-Lou stuff on the board before. For all her brazenness, she has a sense of what is good and is trying to act on it. I hate the word proactive, for all the bl**dy job adverts it was in at some point, but that's what she is. (Forgive my clumsy writing. It's freezing in our flat right now, I'm shivering, and also drank too many beers while my mother babysat both children for us for the first time.)

What I object to is the sniping at Verity by other characters, especially Len. It makes me dislike Len, supposedly so good at getting under people's skin, like her mother. I know these are children's books, and they can't cover everything or cater for all, but I personally would have liked to see the later Verity in more sympathetic tones. At least we could have had a little counterpoint to the criticism. I don't think the character was settled in EBD's mind. On one hand she does create a strong character in Verity that we can get our teeth into, like or dislike; and on the other she uses Verity as a tool in the Mary-Lou storyline. The two don't marry. I'd like to have seen Mary-Lou used, for once (not to diminish her strong character too much), as a device in a later Verity plot by EBD.

I haven't had time to read the relevant drabble yet. Maybe this will answer.

ETA: But then I would have liked to see more of Vi Lucy and others, too. I suppose you can't have it all.

#19: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:53 pm
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What I find incomprehensible in the quote from Wins the Trick is that Verity has just lost her father (and Doris her husband) and Len and the others are more concerned about Mary-Lou's career! Also a quote in Triplets says much the same thing (this time about Mary-Lou and her mother):

Quote:

“ Looks to me as if Auntie Doris wasn't going to make it this time,” Margot said bluntly. “ I'm most awfully sorry for Mary-Lou - and Verity, too.”
“ I'm sorry, too,” Con said meditatively. “ All the same, once the first shock is over, don't you think it'll be better for Mary-Lou?”
“ Better to lose her mother!” Margot cried. “ Con! What are you saying? How could it be better?”
But Len nodded. “ I know what you mean. I saw it myself at once.”
“ What are you talking about! I think you two are bats!” Margot said despairingly. “ Mary-Lou'll have no one left and no home to go to. I think it's horrible for her!”
"She knows that she'll always have a home here,” Len replied instantly. “But don't you see, Margot? If Auntie Doris dies she can go ahead with her career. And it's pounds better for Auntie than living on as an invalid - perhaps realising that she's spoiling Mary-Lou's life. That would be ghastly!”
Margot nodded. “ Oh, I see now. I hadn't thought of that.”

Putting myself in Mary-Lou or Verity's position, I can't imagine any sort of career, no matter how much I would love to do it, that could make up in any way for the loss of my mother or father. I just can't relate at all to that mindset.

#20: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:25 pm
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macyrose wrote:

I just can't relate at all to that mindset.

I can't either, but if you think about the historical context (ie. not long after major loss of life from two world wars) then it was quite common for people to embrace the stiff upper lip, life goes on mentality so a lot of people would think like Len (and EBD). This is how I try and reconcile it to myself, I spose!

#21: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:32 pm
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Perhaps it's a class thing then - my parents are of the same age as Len and the Triplets - but I cannot see them ever feeling that. Not even in the mid-Fifties,and certainly not in 1963 when Triplets was published.

#22: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:33 pm
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macyrose wrote:

Maybe you could argue that sooner or later Mary-Lou would have to suffer the death of her mother whereas it was possible that she might or might not be able pursue archeology. I can see that if she was obliged to stay with a sick mother for many years that there would be a shame in that and there's always the argument that you don't want someone (in this case Doris) to suffer.
I suppose in some ways it links in with the discussion in Anything Else about being 'Needed At Home' where we talkec about girls being expected to look after their parents at the expense of their own lives.
It's interesting that it's seen as preferable for Mary-Lou to lose her mother, and thus be free to pursue her career, rather than for her to say 'I have my own life to lead' and leave her mother.
Not sure there are ever any easy answers with that sort of situation.

#23: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:35 pm
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Quote:

It's interesting that it's seen as preferable for Mary-Lou to lose her mother, and thus be free to pursue her career, rather than for her to say 'I have my own life to lead' and leave her mother.

I think one has to bear in mind that the characters are all Christians who truly believe that when Doris dies she will be going to something better, especially as compared with being a permanent invalid in this life. The same attitude is seen when Rosamund Sefton dies, and I think on other occasions also. From that perspective, it is better that Doris dies, both for her and for ML who is then free to pursue her career without guilt.

Jay B.

#24: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:22 am
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I think Mary-Lou does have a mini-breakdown when Joey gets her to cry after her mother dies, when she's been stiff upper lipping it a bit too much. It is also rather callous when the others assume that her mother's death is a good thing, because it gets her out of the way of Mary-Lou's career plans. I still can't figure out why Doris and Verity couldn't live togther in England, even before Verity's engagement, and support each other.

I also don't mind Mary-Lou up until the after the first few Swiss books - I've known people with that sort of forceful character and need to be the centre of attention. The staff and prefects also make an attempt to rein her in when she gets too bossy or pert. In the Swiss books though, the Staff and prefects seem to give up on calling her on her behaviour, and the staff and Joey keep dumping special responsibility on her and telling her she's the only one who could possibly manage it do it. When someone dislikes her or reacts badly she's told her forward manner might be a factor, but it's expected that the other person will give way.

I can see her reaction after the death, though. Mary-Lou is one of those people who's always the strong one, the leader, the one others depend on, the one who helps others. She's a naturally hardy personality, and fairly self sufficient, and is not used to being helped by anyone else. When her father died and she was ten, all she needed was to be told that it was okay that she didn't miss a man she didn't know, and then she went on to help her mother and grandmother and Verity.

In the books, the closest she ever comes to needing help is when she gets advice about how to help other people. I think in some ways she was being taught that help and comfort was for *other* people, and that for her to break down and need help was a weakness.

----

Interesting thoughts on comparing Mary-Lou and Joey. I think with Joey a lot of her reputation was in retrospect and coloured by her adult behaviour. As a girl she was gregarious and loved being the centre of attention and tended to act without thinking, and she was very loyal to friends and family, but she didn't exert herself particularly for people she wasn't fond of, and even into adulthood *she* was the one who needed to be cared for in a crisis, not the one others leant on.

#25: Author: kimothy, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:28 am
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i think one of the reasons most people liked Joey at school and not mary-lou at school was because Joey had her faults, she got into trouble, into scrapes. She made the wrong decision sometimes and was problematic.

Mary-lou was so perfect with no faults, all anyone could do was ever praise her, and i think its harder to endear yourself to Mary-lou because she iscompletely lacking in faults, she never went through the troublesome middle stage, or wasn't good/didnt try hard at any of her lessons.

*hopes that makes some sort of sense*

#26: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:03 pm
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I agree that ML became irritating in the Swiss books, but she was in trouble as a Middle, for tilting, fighting, passing on whispered messages (Bride?) etc. To me Len was always the perfect one, event hough her eyes might 'twinkle with mischief' she never demonstrated any! Sorry - this is off topic.

#27: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:45 pm
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Actually I agree Mel - I can't think of any time when Len did something naughty - she really was the most goody-good ever! Laughing

#28: Author: Gem, Location: Saltash/Aberystwyth

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:00 pm
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Thinking about it, though, how many children, particularly the eldests of large families, do do really naughty things? Len does things like whistling in the corridors, accidentally stamping on a tube of toothpaste (showing carelessness) and has a habit of trying to 'look after' her siblings when they don't really need it. I willingly admit (and Cath will vouch for me!) that most older sisters try and do the same, generally with problematic results! After all, Con's just as good, except for the dreaminess, and that's not naughtiness. We never see, for example, Mary Burnett (although she's older when she comes to the school) misbehaving or... I can't think of another oldest sister, except Yseult or Sybil, and they don't really support my theory Laughing

Have gone completely off topic here (sorry everyone!) but I never really saw Len as a goody two-shoes. She just seemed like a sensible girl who was the eldest of a large family and behaved that way. I particularly like her not wanting to help Rosamund, and Jo asking her to take her on anyway. She just had an over-developed sense of helpfulness... The only time I didn't like her was when she said particularly nasty things about Verity, who only seemed to become a broken reed as a comparison to Mary-Lou. And that always seemed very out-of-character to me, and EBD simply trying to find a voice for her own particular thoughts.

#29: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:21 pm
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I also agree with Gem. At least, as the oldest of 8, I found the portrayal of Len, and the assumption that birth order confers responsibility, quite realistic. That doesn't mean either of us always accepted it gracefully, though!

For another fictional example, see Anne in Cheaper by the Dozen/Belles on Their Toes, books now under discussion in Recommendations.

ETA I do actually see Verity as requiring emotional support, and think her early behavior in Three Go symptomatic rather than a show of strength in that area. However, I have to admit that the one time I was annoyed with Mary-Lou, whom I normally admire once she gets beyond the generic wicked middle, was when she claimed that Verity didn't really count as family. Grrrrrrr. Had to make allowances given ML's grief at the time, but still.

#30: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:41 pm
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So, those of you that are the eldest (and I am as well - though only ever of three, though I have three siblings) have none of you ever done something wrong? Been in trouble due to mischief? Disappointed/ annoyed your school mistresses/teachers? I think, rather than the sense of responsibility, it's that that makes Len somewhat artificial - she never does any of the normal 'Middle' stuff. Joey did, Mary Lou did. But not Len.

#31: Author: Gem, Location: Saltash/Aberystwyth

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:55 pm
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To be honest, Lesley, not that I can remember! I was incredibly colourless (and thinking about it, probably rather boring!) at school - the worst thing I ever did was keep losing things Embarassed

No-one ever really got into trouble besides not handing in homework at my school, apart from the 10% of every class which liked throwing chairs at teachers... Then again I was at a day school - mischief was more common at boarding schools, and particularly the CS, so I can definitely see the point that she doesn't do much of the 'naughty Middle' stuff. But then again there are a lot of CS characters who don't. It's simply that out of Mary-Lou, Jo and Len, Len is the one who doesn't do 'Middle' things. And again I think that's down to the fact that Mary-Lou was an only child and Jo was very much the youngest of the family and had no responsibilites as such - and it's just the way that Len was. Another example of how interesting it is to see other people's interpretations of the characters - with Joey, Mary-Lou and Len definitely being the talking points! Laughing

*Someone who actually likes Mary-Lou* Embarassed

#32: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:05 pm
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It just doesn't seem 'normal' that someone never did anything wrong. It was as though poor Margot got all three triplets' share of naughtiness.

#33: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:25 pm
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Lesley wrote:

So, those of you that are the eldest (and I am as well - though only ever of three, though I have three siblings) have none of you ever done something wrong? Been in trouble due to mischief? Disappointed/ annoyed your school mistresses/teachers? I think, rather than the sense of responsibility, it's that that makes Len somewhat artificial - she never does any of the normal 'Middle' stuff. Joey did, Mary Lou did. But not Len.

I don't ever remember being in trouble for mischief. The only things I was ever in trouble for were things like not paying attention or whispering - and once for running in the corridor. I did fight with my brothers a bit, but much less than they fought with each other. But Len probably did all those things, but they're so generic that they wouldn't be mentioned unless they were part of a bigger incident.

#34: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:53 pm
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Perhaps you're right, perhaps she did it and it was never mentioned - but it means she comes across as very artificial.

#35: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:11 am
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I think with Len it was the combination of the lack of badness plus the possesion of all virtues. I know lots of people who didn't get into much in the way of serious trouble at school. I know very few people who were also brilliantly clever, hard working, naturally good at languages, creative, musical, athletic, moderately artistic, extremely pretty, poised and graceful even as a teenager, insightful and empathic, responsible, contientious, good with children, incredibly mature for her age without being at all sophisticated, sweet tempered, scrupulously honest, instantly obedient to all mistresses *and* her parents and naturally self-sacrificing.

Her worst fault is being over contientious, plus a mild tendency to untidyiness.

Compared to that, Joey as a girl is friendly, gregarious, charming and a natural leader, very loyal to her friends, extremely musical, very good at writing, history and languages, and athletic. She's also scatterbrained, perpetually late, untidy, tends to act without thinking, tactless and quick tempered, terrible at math, science and art, hated sewing and most domestic tasks, and prone to trying to avoid responsiblity and maturity if possible, and is frequently in trouble. She's also not at all pretty.

Mary-Lou is very bright, hard working and ambitious, athletic, a natural leader and organiser, good hearted, responsible and contientious. She's also bossy, often cheeky, occasionally overly familiar, and tends to butt in where it's none of her business. She's not fond of math and is not particularly artistic or musical. She does develop really good looks, though. As a middle she's often in trouble.

#36: Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:36 am
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It's Len's sententiousness over Verity that gets to me. I'm an only child, and don't really know whether it's a realistic portrayal of an older sibling (it seems that, according to some, it is). I don't really dislike Len, I just find her pretty dull as a main character. I was going to write that I also found her improbable as Joey's daughter, but I've changed my mind, I think. Maybe with a mother still at times so childlike and excitable it would be a natural reaction to assume a more grown-up mantle.

I'm waiting (with some trepidation) to see how I find Mary-Lou on this read-through. As I said, I still like her now, when she comes across to a certain extent as still trying to work out her own beliefs in her mind; again, it's when she starts moralizing that I have the problem. Other than that, I'm glad at least she wasn't married off (not of course that marriage is a bad thing) to the detriment of her career; she's allowed to remain, for a while at least, a strong, single, determined young woman focused on her own goals.

#37: Author: Gem, Location: Saltash/Aberystwyth

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:51 pm
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Hm. Thinking about it, and reading what everyone else has said, I agree that Len isn't realistically portrayed. But I like her anyway so tend to ignore that and humanise her a bit more myself! Embarassed

#38: Author: kimothy, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:22 pm
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despite all thats been said, and the obvious truth of it, i find that in the swiss books at least, i like Len whereas Mary-lou is just plain annoying. Lens butting in with ted, for example, doesn't seem as force/ unnecessary as some of Mary-lous butting-ins.

although i do admit that i haven't read all of the swiss books...

#39: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:29 pm
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CatherineS wrote:

I don't really dislike Len, I just find her pretty dull as a main character. I was going to write that I also found her improbable as Joey's daughter, but I've changed my mind, I think. Maybe with a mother still at times so childlike and excitable it would be a natural reaction to assume a more grown-up mantle.

Len as Saffy and Joey as Edina - I like that idea (Absolutely Fabulous, for anyone who doesn't remember it...). Who should we nominate for Patsy - Grizel?

#40: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:58 pm
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The thing is, from my point of view it's often the Middles' "mischief" that comes across as artificial, put in to make the books more lively. In RL there were occasionally students bold enough to risk detention, and some nasty bullies who managed to keep their activities out of the eyes of any authority, but a sorry dearth of amusing pranks.

For me, the appeal of Len is not that she's perfect -- I never saw that at all! -- but that she is portrayed as an attractive character despite being an ordinary, boring school girl who spends most of her time looking after siblings, slogging at schoolwork, and dealing with responsibilities. She does automatically take on more than is assigned, but that's the normal result of the outsize conscience that seems to be the goal of CS training (not to mention the average Catholic school). I've never quite forgiven Miss Annersley's

Quote:

Now please go away. I have too much to do to be worried by the need to soothe your conscience.

It seems silly to try to defend someone by listing faults, but we do know that she has to work to control a temper the size of Margot's, and is a very cranky patient.

Really her main problem for readers is that she IS rather boring and ordinary. When she gets a starring role, it's normally because of something done to her rather than something she does -- set on fire by Grizel, hauled up when hit by Francie's pellet, accused of shoplifting. Her school offices are given more because she's reliable and conscientious than because she's a flamboyant leader type. But without her sort, most of the world's work would never get done. The fact that she handles it all with good cheer and refuses to be a martyr (including the literal sort *g*) says a lot.

edited because Miss A would have spelled "too" correctly

Last edited by Kathy_S on Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

#41: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:35 pm
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I agree that Len is a far more believable girl than most of the CS middles - because most people, in my experience, don't behave like Jack & Co or Mary-Lou and the Gang etc. Either they are chavs or they are like Len, in that they don't do much to get in trouble.

When it comes to Mary-Lou saying that she hasn't any real family left, I always assume that EBD just phrased that speech very badly. I took it to mean that Mary-Lou hadn't got any blood relations left. Verity, though she is a 'sister by marriage' doesn't come under that heading. Verity is also marrying so she will necessarily be moving on with her life etc. Then M-L remembers Clem and Tony who if they are also not blood relations have been basically brought in the same family and aren't marrying so will be able to offer more support. It's not a disregard of Verity but an acknowledgement of the fact that M-L has no blood relations left and that Verity is marrying so will have to be a bit out of the picture.

That's how I read it - everyone comes off well that way.

#42: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:44 pm
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But even so, I still don't think it was right of anyone to make that sort of comment about Verity. I always admired her in 'Three Go' for her determined stand against Nazism implicit in her refusal to sing in German.

And in 'Problem' when OOAO offers to help Rosamund, she makes a gratuitously nasty comment about Verity to Rosamund. Surely it was very un-CS to say that sort of thing to a stranger?

And what I can't stand is that Verity's genuine grief for Doris Carey is negated by these comments.

#43: Author: CatherineS, Location: Smalltown, West of Scotland

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:51 pm
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I'm going off topic again in response to my own question, sorry!

I don't find Len that unbelievable as a type. I think on my last read-through I found her a bit two-dimensional, that was all. I always found her potentially interesting, but was disappointed not to be given as much insight as I would have liked into her character. I never really felt that the titbits fed us by EBD, like her untidiness, and her reluctance to become a prefect, and her frustration at Jack, and her own temper (which was actually explained away by illness), let me get a grip on her as a living character. Perhaps because, as far as I recall, (I must admit I'm not almost the most observant of readers - I'll be paying attention this time!) we are always told about this in the narrative, rather than being shown it. Almost in the way that retrospectively Joey is described as always being the first to help out others, when that isn't actually the case in the early books. It irritates me to be told that a character is good at getting under someone's skin, when I don't really sense that when I see the character in action. As far as I remember this happens for me with Mary-Lou later, too. I always found Margot (who I don't like much), and Con (who I do), much more believable. Strange that I find Con more rounded as a character - but I suppose when you are told that she is a dreamer it gives you more scope as a reader to actually imagine her inner life. Maybe we're told a bit too much about Len to use our imaginations with her, yet not given enough hints to other possibilities for her, if that makes any sense. OK, so perhaps Len is a bit of a 'still point in a turning world', to badly misuse Eliot, or is shown to feel she has to be. I appreciate that and am sure in the Chalet world that I would like her to be my friend. It's just that when I see the character in action, I'm never quite as impressed as EBD seems to be.

Maybe I'll change my mind as I progress through the books this time and I should shut up until I do that and get all my facts straight! Very Happy

By the way, I don't think anyone answered the question about whether anyone had written anything about Verity's stay at Freudesheim during the Christmas between Mary-Lou and Genius. Does anyone know?

Thanks, Catherine.

#44: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:55 pm
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Jennie wrote:

I always admired her in 'Three Go' for her determined stand against Nazism implicit in her refusal to sing in German.

I actually thought she behaved slightly unpleasantly over the German carols, very nationalistic. Not really CS-ethos/Peace League type of thing.

#45: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:51 pm
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Quote:

When it comes to Mary-Lou saying that she hasn't any real family left, I always assume that EBD just phrased that speech very badly. I took it to mean that Mary-Lou hadn't got any blood relations left. Verity, though she is a 'sister by marriage' doesn't come under that heading. Verity is also marrying so she will necessarily be moving on with her life etc. Then M-L remembers Clem and Tony who if they are also not blood relations have been basically brought in the same family and aren't marrying so will be able to offer more support. It's not a disregard of Verity but an acknowledgement of the fact that M-L has no blood relations left and that Verity is marrying so will have to be a bit out of the picture.

That's how I read it - everyone comes off well that way.

Thanks, Loryat. I hadn't thought of that interpretation. Smile

#46: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:31 am
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It's a good point about middles pranks in general. From my memories of school, people got into trouble for things like rough-housing on the playground, not doing their homework, acting up in class, wearing inappropriate clothing, swearing, bullying, talking back to the teacher or stealing.

The mischevious, but it's a nice michief type of incident just wasn't there. I don't remember interesting plots, or clever pranks or stuff like that. The kids who weren't getting into the not nice mischief were generally behaving fairly well.

I like Len more than I like Mary-Lou. I get the impression that Len is weighed down by a pile of expectations, by her family and her mistresses and her peers. She's expected to look out for her younger siblings and her mother from a young age, she's known as the responsible, good triplet, she's expected to be several years beyond her agemates in school, and so on.

I would have liked to see Len go away from the Platz and experience life where she isn't the responsible triplet and the daughter of Joey, where people only know her, and have no preconceived expectations.

#47: Author: Ruth B, Location: Oxford, UK

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:26 am
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Quote:

By the way, I don't think anyone answered the question about whether anyone had written anything about Verity's stay at Freudesheim during the Christmas between Mary-Lou and Genius. Does anyone know?

I don't remember reading anything...

The CBB -> Joey's Trunk

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