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War Timeline
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3676
Author:  brie [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  War Timeline
Does anyone know when Marie and Eugen got married?

Where did Frieda go before she turned up in Guernsey? She wasn't in the Concentration camp was she? But she still fled for her life?

What happened to Friedas parents?

During the early stages of the war (around Exile) what was going on in the real world, vaersus what was going on in the CS world. i.e. what CS events were taking place, when real events were taking place? Sorry if that sentence doesn't make any sense! :oops:

Oh and what was happening with Simone? She didn't turn up until Armishire did she? Was she still studying at the Sorbonne at the start of the war? Would her time in France have overlapped the Nazi occupation in France?

Thanks!!
Author:  Carys [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Marie and Eugen had been married for at least a year in Exile I believe as Wolfram had arrived on the scene.

I'm afraid I can't remember about Frieda at the present but Simone was teaching at the school when it was at Guernsey, she was Robin's form mistress.
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think that Marie and Eugen got married in the gap between United and Exile - the impression given is that it was pretty soon after Marie left school but IIRC the wedding isn't mentioned in New/United/Jo Returns. I am prepared to be corrected on that score, though! Marie's first baby was born early on in Exile and I think we're told somewhere that she was married a while (although by Joey's standards a year before having a baby could seem like a while!) before starting a family.

Bernhilda and Kurt were living in Italy at the time of the Anschluss: Frieda went to stay with them before coming to Guernsey, and I think that her parents did too. Later, Bernhilda, Kurt and the senior Mensches went to America.

During late 1939/early 1940, i.e. the second part of Exile, the main action of the war (sorry, couldn't think of a better expression) was taking place in Eastern Europe: Germany annexed Poland and the Soviet Union invaded Finland. France wasn't invaded until May 1940, by which time we're into War/Goes to It, so Simone had left the Sorbonne by then.
Author:  JayB [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have a vague impression that Marie's wedding was around the Christmas after they left school, but couldn't say where I get that from.

The CS reopened on Guernsey on 31 August 1939. The Germans invaded Poland, thereby kicking off WWII, in the early hours of 1 September. It was that morning that Miss Annersley, no doubt with that news in mind, said to the school:
Quote:
Madame gave us a watchword that last term at the Sonnalpe you may remember. It was “Be brave.” We may need to be very brave, and that very shortly.


Britain entered a state of war with Germany at 11.00 am on Sunday 3 September. You can find Chamberlain's radio speech annoucing it online.

The war at sea started immediately, with attacks on British Royal Navy and merchant ships. At one point Joey mentions the Germans claiming to have sunk HMS Ark Royal. They really did make that claim early in the war. (She really was sunk in 1941).
Author:  macyrose [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
I have a vague impression that Marie's wedding was around the Christmas after they left school, but couldn't say where I get that from.

That's from New House where Marie says about her wedding:
Quote:
But I know that Eugen does not with us to wait too long. I think it will probably be at Christmas time.

In Exile it says about Marie:
Quote:
Marie von Eschenau, had been wedded at the age of eighteen; and though she had had to wait three years before the arrival of her little son,

So Marie was probably one of the few Chalet girls who didn't have a child soon after the wedding.
Author:  KB [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
I did some hunting for information on Frieda and came up with the following:

Quote:
Lorenz shook her head. ‘Not a word. And she looks so grown-up and serious. Frau Marani is in Paris, you know. She is to come to England to live with Gisela and Gottfried. And the Mensches are there already. Papa brought me over last week, and we have been in London. We went to see Gisela, and saw Frieda there.


As for the rest of the family:

Quote:
And they insisted that Gottfried Mensch must join them. So far he had been let alone; but it was certain that this could not last. He must get away, and join his wife and parents in Genoa.


And it is possible to establish some kind of a comparative timeline:

1938
February: Exile begins just before half-term.
March 11: Schuschnigg resigns as Austrian Chancellor under pressure from Hitler. This is mentioned at the beginning of Chapter 4 of Exile.
March 13: The German Anschluss of Austria (also mentioned in Chapter 4)
Mid-March (est): Joey and Jack get engaged
Early April: School meeting to sign the Peace League
April 9 (est.): Picnic to hide the League document
April 17: Easter Sunday
Approx mid-April: Juliet's wedding to Donal O'Hara
Late April: Jack is arrested by the Gestapo (presumed, as it is discussed as if the school has come back after Easter holidays)
Late April: Trouble begins in the Czech Sudetenland, which will lead to the Munich Pact.
June: Visit to Spartz and the flight by Miss Wilson, Joey, et al.
July 5: Evian conference
September 29: Munich Conference to decide the fate of Czechoslovakia
September 30: Munich Agreement/Pact is signed and Czechoslovakia is divided.
September: Josette Russell is born. This matches only with the details given in this book and not those in the rest of the series.
October 1: German troops march into Czechoslovakia
October: Margot Venables dies
November 7: After his family is left in limbo on the border of Germany and Czechoslovakia, Herschel Grynspan shoots Ernst vom Rath, who dies on November 9.
November 9-10: vom Rath's death sparks off what will eventually become known as the Night of Broken Glass (Kristallnacht). Several days later, Jews are ordered to pay 1 billion Reichsmarks for the damage that was caused on Kristallnacht.

1939
February 10: Pope Pius XI dies. His successor, Pius XII, will forever be tainted with the accusation that he assisted the Nazis.
March 16: Hitler declares that Czechoslovakia no longer exists. France and Britain do almost nothing in response.
April: Exile begins again after the ten-month gap. Saares is purchased to house the new school.
July: Joey's Bruno arrives back in England in the care of Jockel.
Early August: Germany begins placing the blame on Poland for a variety of 'crimes'. Accusations against Poland increase during August.
August 19: Negotiations for the Soviet-German pact intensify
August 23: German-Soviet Non-Aggression pact is signed.
Late August: Neville Chamberlain reinforces Britain's decision to support Poland.
August 31: The Chalet School begins its new term.
September 1: German troops cross over the Polish border
September 3: Great Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany. The Athenia is sunk by a German U-Boat.
September 7-9: French troops invade Germany in several places and face no opposition. They are ready to retreat at any time.
Late September: Betty and Elizabeth's gardening prank
September 28: The Polish Army surrenders. Poland is divided between Germany and Russia.
October: The Phony War begins.
Early October: Arrival of Gertrude Becker. Death of Mademoiselle LePattre.
October 14: A German U-Boat works its way into Scapa Flow and manages to sink the Ark Royal
November 5 (accepted): Joey's triplets are born
November 8: attempt on Hitler's life in Munch fails
Mid-November: the Seniors save the life of a man whose German aeroplane has crashed
Late November: Herr Marani's ashes are received. Jack returns unexpectedly.
Early December: Frieda, Bruno and Friedel return.

More later...
Author:  Laura V [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Carol Allen has Marie already married in Gillian. Didn't Frieda have to spend some time on the Isle of Man at the beginning of the war?
Author:  macyrose [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Don't Jo and Jack get engaged (off-screen) after the picnic and after the SLOC scene?
Author:  Pat [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I assumed that the half term that Margot & co left Austria was May to coincide with Pentecost. It would be mid-termish too.
Author:  KB [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
macyrose wrote:
Don't Jo and Jack get engaged (off-screen) after the picnic and after the SLOC scene?


Actually, there is this quote in Exile:

Quote:
The Robin, who had just given her the great news, flushed. ‘But it is true. She and Jack have been engaged for nearly a month now. Ask Madge if you will not believe me. Besides, she’s wearing her ring.’
‘Impossible!’ declared Grizel. ‘Why, she’s always laughed at that sort of thing, and said she would never marry. I don’t believe even Jack Maynard could make her change her mind. It’s a mistake.’
‘It isn’t,’ insisted the Robin, who had begged to be allowed to be the one to tell Grizel Cochrane and Juliet Carrick, now Juliet O’Hara. ‘That night we had the picnic up the Sonnenscheinspitze they were engaged; but Joey asked us not to tell anyone till after the holidays, as Juliet’s wedding was coming, and she did not want to spoil the excitement for her. But they really have been engaged for nearly four weeks. Jack gave her her ring the day the School broke up. She would not have it before, lest anyone should see it and guess.’


You could read it as this that this conversation has taken place a month after the events of the previous chapter, but this seems a very long time for the secret to be kept from Grizel, who is almost living on the Die Rosen doorstep.

The way I reasoned it out is as follows: Juliet is to be married at the end of that term, before the Easter holidays. Therefore Jo and Jack must be engaged before this, as Jo says that she does not want to spoil Juliet's excitement. They are already engaged at the picnic (at least, considering the consequences of the first picnic, I can't see Madge letting them go off for a second time so soon). Jo only gets her ring in the holidays, and if she was wearing it when school began again, people would already have guessed, and I'm sure Grizel would have been one of that group. Therefore I reasoned that the engagement takes place a month before the infamous picnic, which makes it approx mid-March.

Laura V wrote:
Didn't Frieda have to spend some time on the Isle of Man at the beginning of the war?


Yes, but this takes place in Goes To It, and I've only got notes there for Exile. I will put up some more dates on the weekend when I have a bit more time.
Author:  macyrose [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
after the events of the previous chapter, but this seems a very long time for the secret to be kept from Grizel, who is almost living on the Die Rosen doorstep.
The way I reasoned it out is as follows: Juliet is to be married at the end of that term, before the Easter holidays. Therefore Jo and Jack must be engaged before this, as Jo says that she does not want to spoil Juliet's excitement. They are already engaged at the picnic (at least, considering the consequences of the first picnic, I can't see Madge letting them go off for a second time so soon). Jo only gets her ring in the holidays, and if she was wearing it when school began again, people would already have guessed, and I'm sure Grizel would have been one of that group. Therefore I reasoned that the engagement takes place a month before the infamous picnic, which makes it approx mid-March.


I'm confused. Robin says that they got engaged the night after the picnic which would be right after the SLOC scene, right? And that Jo and Jack didn't tell anyone (outside of the immediate family, I'm guessing, which would not include Grizel) for four weeks, which is why Grizel only finds out four weeks later when Robin tells her (and Jo has put on her ring) during which four weeks Juliet's wedding would have taken place. So how can Jo & Jack get engaged before the picnic when Robin says just the opposite?
Author:  Pat [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I only remember one picnic, when they tried to hide the Peace League document.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I only remember one picnic as well. The way I read it is that there was a four week gap between the SLOC scene and Robin's conversation with Grizel, and that Joey and Jack got engaged just after the SLOC scene but kept quiet about it for those 4 weeks to avoid stealing any of Juliet and Donal's thunder.

It was very nice of them to want not to divert attention from Juliet and Donal, but I find it very weird that Joey didn't tell Grizel and Juliet the news herself instead of letting Robin do it :roll: (sorry for being irrelevant!).
Author:  JayB [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Alison H wrote:
I find it very weird that Joey didn't tell Grizel and Juliet the news herself instead of letting Robin do it :roll: (sorry for being irrelevant!).


I suppose firstly, Robin wanted to be the one to tell them, and secondly, Joey probably guessed that Grizel, at least, would tease. She was evidently close by, listening to Robin and Grizel's conversation, because she intervened quite quickly.
Author:  KB [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:12 am ]
Post subject: 
macyrose wrote:
I'm confused. Robin says that they got engaged the night after the picnic which would be right after the SLOC scene, right? And that Jo and Jack didn't tell anyone (outside of the immediate family, I'm guessing, which would not include Grizel) for four weeks, which is why Grizel only finds out four weeks later when Robin tells her (and Jo has put on her ring) during which four weeks Juliet's wedding would have taken place. So how can Jo & Jack get engaged before the picnic when Robin says just the opposite?


Well, it depends how you read it! I read this:

Quote:
‘That night we had the picnic up the Sonnenscheinspitze they were engaged;


as that they were engaged before they went on the picnic. After all, she's calling him by his first name and falling all over him, which I'm sure propriety would forbid if they weren't engaged at that point!
Author:  macyrose [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:50 am ]
Post subject: 
I've always read it a different way, probably because at the beginning of the chapter Spied On (the start of the picnic) it says:
Quote:
The next day, after Mittagessen, a merry party set out, headed by Jo and the young doctor, who had agreed to come with them with delight. He had known Jo since her stormy youth; had seen her grow up from a mischievous imp of thirteen to charming young womanhood of nearly twenty-one; and, for the last two years, had been quite decided about what she meant to him. Whether Jo would look on things in the same light or not was another matter. She had always hated the idea that some day she must give up her childhood, and had clung to it even more than most girls.

Which indicates to me that while Jack knows what his feelings about Jo are (love), he hasn't yet made them clear to Jo, and it isn't known yet to Jack (and to the reader) whether Jo will feel the same way about him (and since she's an adult now, and they've been friends for so long, they would have been on a first name basis at this point). The stresses of the picnic caused the overwrought Jo to faint into his arms, and later after the shock of finding that Robin is safe she suddenly sees Jack in a different light, as a SLOC, and this leads to an engagement off-screen (and four weeks later, Robin's announcement to Grizel). :D
Author:  KB [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Hmm, could it perhaps be that EBD herself hadn't quite made up her mind on that point when she wrote it? :? :wink:

I promise to be more vague in the full version I am in the process of making up.
Author:  Elbee [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:15 am ]
Post subject: 
I've always understood it in the same way as Alison H and Macyrose, that they got engaged later that evening, sometime after Madge had left the room at the end of the SLOC scene.
Author:  Pat [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Elbee wrote:
I've always understood it in the same way as Alison H and Macyrose, that they got engaged later that evening, sometime after Madge had left the room at the end of the SLOC scene.


Me too. It was that whole thing around the picnic and Robin and Hilary going missing that opened Jo's eyes. It was after the picnic, but the same evening, that they got engaged.
Author:  Rosalin [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd always read it the same way as KB, and had never really picked up on that bit from the start of the picnic :?
Author:  Caroline [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
Alison H wrote:
I find it very weird that Joey didn't tell Grizel and Juliet the news herself instead of letting Robin do it :roll: (sorry for being irrelevant!).


I suppose firstly, Robin wanted to be the one to tell them, and secondly, Joey probably guessed that Grizel, at least, would tease. She was evidently close by, listening to Robin and Grizel's conversation, because she intervened quite quickly.


Count me in with the getting-engaged-after-Madge-(and the reader)-has left-the-room-on-the-night-of-the-picnic camp.

Regarding Robin telling Grizel, aren't we told that she begged Jo to be allowed to be the one that broke the news?

Yep - this is the passage:

Quote:
The Robin, who had just given her the great news, flushed. ‘But it is true. She and Jack have been engaged for nearly a month now. Ask Madge if you will not believe me. Besides, she’s wearing her ring.’

‘Impossible!’ declared Grizel. ‘Why, she’s always laughed at that sort of thing, and said she would never marry. I don’t believe even Jack Maynard could make her change her mind. It’s a mistake.’

‘It isn’t,’ insisted the Robin, who had begged to be allowed to be the one to tell Grizel Cochrane and Juliet Carrick, now Juliet O’Hara.
Author:  Travellers Joy [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I, too, had the impression it took place that evening, after Jo's epiphany - Jack was only waiting for her to grow up and realise that she loved him.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I, too, always thought they got engaged after the SLOC scene. After all, had they been engaged earlier, Madge mightn't have been quite so surprised....
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