The CBB :: View topic - The Chalet School and Jo

#1: The Chalet School and Jo Author: Josie, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:20 am

Synopsis here if anyone wants it...
http://www.newchaletclub.co.uk/library/synopses/synop_chaletandjo.htm

What do you think of Joey in this book? Is her initial reluctance to be Head Girl understandable, or a little childish? Did you empathise with her reluctance to grow up? How does she get on in her first term as Head Girl? Is she really a true 'leader'? What about the fears for the Robin and her blaming it on Stacie? Do the middles pranks amuse or irritate? Do you like Biddy's appearance inthe series? Does the description of the Passion Play insire you to want to see it or bore you? What about Juliet and Donal?

#2: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:20 am

I have to say (and I think I said this first time round, too), this is not one of my favourite Tyrol books, mainly for the antics of the middles and in particular what they get up to just before the Passion Play (see, I'm not even going to TRY and spell the place they're in - call me a coward if you like, I haven't had my caffeine yet!). I just cannot buy 14 and 15 year olds deciding they're going to dress up and play at Red Indians and I particularly cannot buy them doing it on a school trip.

Having said that, the rest of the book, and in particular Joey's reactions to most things, are some of the better reactions in the Tyrol books. Although it IS childish of Joey to not want to take on the role of Headgirl, it's an entirely realistic reaction too: How many of us, if we're honest, REALLY wanted to grow up and become adults? And for Joey, particularly, her only options once she left school were look after children, write and get married. Considering how active she was IN school, you can see her rebelling a bit at taking the penultimate step towards that! I think, too, her reactions to Stacie over the fears for Robin's health are quite human and believable. Not very nice or admirable, but believable.

Juliet and Donal's situation is also all too believable. A man like Captain Carrick was bound to have left some sort of reputation behind him and for the more snobbish element of society, anyone connected to something like that is to be avoided. That said, if I'd been Juliet, I'd have probably socked Donal one for being a complete wuss and not being able to make up his own mind... (I'd have never made a terribly good Chalet girl!) Having said that, I do rather like Joey's treatment of Donal (I guess that would be the verbal equivalent of socking him one), so overall, I think this little subplot does work out quite nicely. I just wish we'd subsequently seen more of Juliet later in her life.

As stupid and is silly as the middles behaviour is over Biddy, Biddy as a character is interesting and a good addition to the series. As compared to EBD's other Irish characters, she actually comes across as a rounded and real person as opposed to a complete jumble of stereotypes. I'm not quite sure how her attending the local school would have worked (perhaps EBD wasn't, either, and that's why Biddy becomes a Chaletian!) and though perhaps the idea of her becoming a Guide project is a little on the patronising side, what better way of keeping her in line than by having her reports going to Miss Wilson!

The description of the Passion Play itself neither bored me nor inspired me to ever want to go. It's always interesting to read it, but beyond that it doesn't leave an impression on me one way or the other. Perhaps I'm just a philistine at heart!

And actually, not really leaving an impression on me one way or the other is a good way to sum up the actual in-school doings in the book. Joey's unquestionably a leader - but I don't recall anything in this particular book to suggest it and mostly because of the middles activities out of school I seldom have the desire to reread and see what I've missed.

Ray *semi-apathetic and longwinded about it too*

#3: Author: Steph, Location: Blackpool, Lancashire

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:18 am

I quite like this book. It's interesting to see Jo resign herself to growing up even though she doesn't want to and she does try to make a good job of being headgirl once she is back at school, when she could have so easily not cared about her position (although that wouldn't be very likely). Her reaction to the news about the possibility of TB for the Robin is realistic to me and shows just how much she loves and cares about her, especially as Jo is not one for crying usually.
I think the situation between Donal and Juliet is realistic and adds a more 'grown-up' element to the story, especially when Jo sees how bitter Juliet is and nothing she can say can change that. I love the bit when Jo insults Donal- I wanted to shake him for the snobbish way he and his sister treated Juliet.

The Middles are funny- isn't this the book when a couple of them get their heads trapped in the chairs? I like the way they 'adopted' Biddy and the way Biddy eventually tries to escape, sick of being in the games shed Very Happy

Jo's reaction to this seems believable- she makes some good points such as how would Biddy have got on in the Winter, she lays down the law well and I agree with her in this book, unlike later on when her tirade against Joyce etc when they had a 'midnight' seems very harsh and excessive...but that will have to wait!
Like Ray said, I find it a little unbelievable that 14 and 15 year olds are wanting to adopt Biddy and play Red Indians- I could believe it of the Juniors but they seem a little old for it Rolling Eyes

The Passion Play was interesting and another one of those scenes which add local colour to the books. The reactions of the girls made more of an impression on me. Joey fainting seemed a tad unrealistic but I suppose when you take into account the length and strain of the play, plus the hot weather and the fact Jo is a 'highly-strung' girl, maybe it's what I should expect.

One of my favourite scenes in this book is towards the end when Jo, Grizel, Wanda etc are sitting in the garden of Die Rosen- it's nice to see old girls there and I can always imagine the summer's day and how they are discussing the term's happenings. It always seems more poignant to me when I think of what happens in Exile, and they are there making plans for the future with no idea what will happen. Not explaining it very well but it's a lovely scene to me.

Umm...think that's about it! Very Happy

#4: Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:27 pm

I agree with Ray that the behaviour of the 14-15 year old middles is quite unbelievable. I was considerably younger than them when I read it and didn't know what age 'middles' were so I thought they were about 7!

Jo's reaction still struck me as quite understandable when I was 16 - I didn't want to grow up either. I actually enjoyed school and couldn't see how being 'grown up' would confer any advantages.

One thing that did jar was that Jo was so incensed at the snobery shown by Juliet's Donal but took a similar attitude to Biddy! I really felt the school was patronising to her. EBD, presumably, thought twice about it and turned her into a major character and good CS girl - perhaps she just had to follow where the bunny led Wink

At the time, the Passion Play (Unlike Ray I've had several doses of caffeine but am still not going to spell it!) was very moving. I was educated by Nuns with a deep and simplistic approach to religion and so thought it marvelous - not so, now.

Like Steph I did enjoy the scene in the garden, though I'm not sure now whether I did when I was young.

#5: Author: Chair, Location: Rochester, Kent, England

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:10 pm

I did enjoy this book. Reading this discussion, it has made me want to reread the book but the only time I have seen a copy of it was in my School Library. Maybe I'll have a look on the Transcripts website.

The book didn't especially inspire me to go and see the Passion Play but I really enjoyed the Passion Play when the BBC showed the play a few years ago with Gina McKee and Paul Nicholls.

#6: Author: Changnoi, Location: New Mexico, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:16 pm

Overall, I like this book.

I think that, in many places, Joey is presented as very well-rounded. She's no longer a constantly ill child, nor is she a do-gooder of the worst order. Instead, she's an adolescent who faces her challenges in a very real way--she doesn't want all the responsibility of being HG and she complains about it, but she does it. She misses the Robin (she has rarely been seen to miss Madge in the same way). She gets passionately angry at other people's snobbishness.

I did think, however, that Joey's anger over Robin's illness was somewhat misguided. I know that the attitude of the Chalet School authorities is that, for someone like Robin, if someone looks at her wrong, she'll get TB. And from that point of view, I suppose it's realistic that Jo should pin a lot of blame on Eustacia. But regardless of what Jem might have been saying, I can't work up enough willing suspension of disbelief to think that Jo might have honestly believed that stress caused TB. So then I can see Jo's anger at Eustacia in this book as being a further example of immaturity, as Jo develops a lot in this book, or as simply nonsense. (Note: if it is documented that mild stress does cause TB, I retract this paragraph.)

I very much enjoyed the Passion Play. It inspired me to look for cheap plane tickets to Oberammergau, visit the Oberammergau website, research Anton Lang, and read Anton Lang's little autobiography. He seemed like a nice man, by the way. A bit confused about how he was flung into the limelight, but very nice all the same. I'm also not sure about Joey fainting. I'm going to charitably assume that it was really because they'd been sitting in the hot sun for ages, apart from the small rest, and the heat and the light and being tired of dealing with people dressing up like Indians got to her.

The middles' antics? Meh. The Indians thing...I agree that it's somewhat juvenile. But I think in a lot of ways even Joey shows a lot of vacillating between being adult in her outlook and being childish. I think that's pretty characteristic of teen years. So I tend to read this prank as the middles' having a flight of fancy that goes too far--they forget that they're surrounded by people at a religious place and just let their hair down. I think adopting Biddy is another example of this. They see Biddy and are concerned for her welfare (adult mentality) but choose to hide her in the shed (child mentality).

Biddy...I just don't know. I dislike the way EBD has to explain nice manners on characters from poor backgrounds by saying that they learned them from nobility (Rosamund Lilley, Biddy, Grandma in Gay). Biddy does have character, however, and I like some of the things she says. The decision that the school makes that she should be trained as a hairdresser seems completely random as well as snobbish.

As for Juliet and Donal, I like this subplot. I specifically like the discussion Juliet has with Jo about her (Juliet's) relationship with Kay. The subtext there is wonderful!

Chang

#7: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:49 pm

And just because someone's bound to have seen it before I can get rid of it: The post about Franco belongs to a discussion elsewhere on the board.

I SAID I hadn't had any caffeine!

Ray * Embarassed

#8: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:25 am

Jo’s reluctance to undertake adult responsibilities seemed perfectly reasonable to me, even without the rather mournful description of a future back home on the Sonnalpe as empty compared to school life. The only time I totally failed to empathize with her was during the irrational blame-Stacie-if-anything-happens-to-Robin incident, particularly given that one of her first impulses just before this had been to run up and talk with the poor girl. Even worse, Stacie seemed to accept the blame. Fortunately Jo does eventually accept Marie’s logic and pass it on to Stacie, and Jo does seem to mature significantly during the year.

I agree that the “Red Indian” prank seemed far-fetched, mostly because I didn’t think the Middles would be so easily distracted from exploring a new and exotic locale. I’d have had no problem accepting it back in the woods behind the CS – perhaps because my imaginary middles are younger than modern RL middles. It was amusing, though.

Overall, the Passion Play description didn’t make me want to run out and see it a quarter as much as the sequence in Betsy and the Great World (Maud Hart Lovelace), even though Betsy didn’t visit Oberammergau during the play itself. Too much of a blow by blow description, perhaps? I was also distracted by Juliet & Jo on the subject of ‘Americans trying to commercialize even this lovely, sacred thing.’ Lovelace handles the existence of loutish tourists much more sensitively, showing Betsy’s embarrassment over treatment of Anton Lang by a particularly annoying specimen. (“It is the first time you have ever admitted that anything American was less than perfect,” Tilda said.)

I pretty much agree with everyone on the subject of Biddy. She’s a great character – I’d hate to have missed her, even though the patronizing attitude is hard to swallow.

Probably my favorite part of this book is the way Jo settled Donal. He deserved every word, the cad! I’d have liked an apology from his sister, though. For Middles’ antics, I’d vote for Corney’s essay on Raleigh and Morse Very Happy

#9: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:20 pm

[quote="Kathy_S"
Overall, the Passion Play description didn’t make me want to run out and see it a quarter as much as the sequence in Betsy and the Great World (Maud Hart Lovelace), even though Betsy didn’t visit Oberammergau during the play itself. [/quote]

Oooh, I had forgotten about the Betsy-Tacy books. ....

Sigh, I just went off and spend $45 on the whole set from ABEbooks. I had read the first tw, and one of the middle ones as a kid, but had forgotten about them in the meantime.

It hadn't occured to me before, but the middles are a bit old for that sort of antic, poarticularly as it involved stealing somebody's paintbox to do it. Eight year olds, maybe. I have a soft spot for this book, as a double edition of this and Camp are the first CS books I found as an adult. I think Jo's reluctance to grow up is believable, as is her reluctance to take on the extra responsiblity of Head Girl.

I agree on the "blame Stacie" front. If the Robin was so delicate that an evening of worry would send her into a bout of full blown tubercleosis then she shouldn't have been sent on the trip in the first place, and she certainly would have been doomed anyways. Blaming Stacie at this point was just plain cruel, particulalry when you consider some of the dumb stunts Joey has pulled in the past. Sometimes I wonder if EBD understood the basic mechanics of infectious diseases.

I like Biddy, and I the Middle's adoption scheme, although the attitudes towards her are very condescending. The mechanics of making a guide troup the legal guardian of a ten year old seemed rather far fetched. I could see them sponsoring her financially, but being a legal guardian? Speaking of which, what would have happened to Biddy in the year when the school was being relocated? She doesn't seem to be with the Bettanys or Maynards?

#10: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:05 pm

jennifer wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if EBD understood the basic mechanics of infectious diseases.

Remember that this was published in 1931 (74 years ago Shocked

) when the mechanics of infectious diseases were not understood as they are now

EBD was not a doctor so any medical knowledge she would have picked up came from her own understanding (her brother and her friend both died in childhood - IIRC) and no doubt a lot of that was based on old wives tales

After all many people still think now that if you go wet or very cold you will come down with a cold, even if you haven't been in contact with any cold germs at all

#11: Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:09 pm

I love this book, it always makes me think of perfect hot summers and if I sit in the garden and have nothing else to read I often pick this.

As someone who didn't want to grow up as a teenager I can see Jo's point about not wanting to grow up and to her being head girl would be the ultimate responsibilty she didn't want.

Donal needed a good slap and if I had been Juliet I would have accepted his apology and then told him to get lost - is a man weak enough to follow his sister's lead that way a decent man to marry? I do love the scene between him and Jo though.

Biddy is a wonderful character and brings a lot to the series. I think the guides were made responsible for her to teach the girls what was involved in bringing up a child. It was actually Miss Wilson who had overall responsibility for her (Biddy's reports went to Bill) but I think the guides would raise money to pay for things for her.

I loved the Passion Play scenes and would like to see it one day but don't suppose I ever will.

I think the middles were a bit too old to act the way they did with the painting as Red Indians even though they would be younger for their age then.

#12: Author: RuthY, Location: Anyone's guess

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:46 am

I really like this book. I think it realistically shows Joey growing up she is no longer really a child but she doesn't want to grow up either she matures over the course of the book. I think her attitude to Stacie when they are worried about the Robin although unfair was only natural. As she gorws up she does become a good headgirl! I think the bit about Julliet and Donal is really lovely and realistic, people have probably heard many bad things about Captain Carrick. The middles behaviour on the trip is very childish although I hadn't really thought about that till now. Not to sure about Biddy's entry into the series but I do think she is a great character. The description of the passion play doesn't really make me think I must see that but it does sound quite nice!

That's about all I've got to say Exclamation

Ruth

#13: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:11 pm

I wanted to see the Passion Play in 2000 (in 1990 my parents didn't consider me old enough to go abroad without them and they weren't interested in it!) but I didn't realise how far in advance the trips to Oberammergau that I'd looked into would have sold out so I didn't go in the end. I will try to book early enough for 2010! I always liked the summery garden scenes in this book, although I found some of the stuff about Biddy a bit patronising. Everything seemed so nice and happy then, in the pre-war days!

#14: Author: Róisín, Location: Galway, Eire

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:11 pm

There are a lot of things I love about this book and a lot of things that just irritate me. The middles' antics all irritate me as they come in quick succession and I feel like they are just fillers when she couldn't think of anything else to say.

I love the way the book is framed by conversations between Gisela and Gottfried - they're two of my favourite characters and I was delighted that they got married. The scenes with Wanda and Gisela at Die Rosen are beautifully written.

Biddy is my favourite thing about this book. She's my favourite character from here on in in the series and I love her entry. I first read this book when I was about eight and always remembered her advice about getting clothes torn and dirty - sure twill wash and twill mend! - and to my mother's despair I took the advice very literally! Laughing

#15: Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:29 pm

I reread this book recently. Looking at it from an adult perspective, the Juliet/Donal relationship is portrayed very idealistically. Donal had proven himself to be a weak and easily influenced man who had broken Juliet's heart. If I were Juliet, it would have taken me a long time to trust him again, and I certainly wouldn't have committed myself to marriage as quickly as she did. Saying that, as a child it was good to see Juliet made happy again.

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