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Themes: Writing for the Young
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Author:  Róisín [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Themes: Writing for the Young
Writing for the young is quite a different activity to writing for adults; EBD wrote purely for children excepting that one Jean of Storms.

But are the Chalet School books really books just for children? If so, what is their great appeal for adults? Are they, as children's books, moralistic or didactic, rather than reflective of reality? Did she stick rigidly to those plots and themes which she knew would sell to an audience made up of children? If she had written this series for adults, what would be different?

Please join in the discussion below with any opinions at all on how EBD belongs in the sphere of children's writers, and how her books are children's literature. :D

FYI there is a page in wiki on Children's literature here.
Author:  Emma A [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Róisín wrote:
But are the Chalet School books really books just for children? If so, what is their great appeal for adults? Are they, as children's books, moralistic or didactic, rather than reflective of reality? Did she stick rigidly to those plots and themes which she knew would sell to an audience made up of children? If she had written this series for adults, what would be different?

An interesting point. They are children's books, though adults can enjoy them because EBD did write believable adult characters, and showed many things from their viewpoint. Blyton, for example, rarely did this, and as a result, her adult characters tend to be cardboard cut-outs, only there to further the plot. As an adult, one can also read to immerse oneself in a bygone age when sin was punished (unless you were were a Maynard!) and the good triumphed. They also contain darker themes that give more depth to an adult reading - though children may not notice these undercurrents (the hints about Margot Venables' marriage, Grizel's general unhappiness).

The sheer length of the series also hooks the reader, and gives a lot of pleasure in growing up with so many girls. Reading as a child there's an element of wish-fulfilment: going to a school in the Alps, and finding super friends, and going on exotic trips, and learning to be trilingual are all things far from most children, even nowadays.

If this had been a series for adults, she might have focussed more on the San, and told stories about the patients, and developed the nurses more from mere names. It's hard to imagine that she'd have been able to sustain a series of this length for adult readers unless she'd turned to writing sci-fi or detective fiction, both of which genres seem to gather adult series devotees. I don't think adult readers would really want to read about the school and staff - mainly because there wouldn't be the sense of growth and development. New Mistress shows us that, but it works because it's unusual.
Róisín wrote:
Please join in the discussion below with any opinions at all on how EBD belongs in the sphere of children's writers, and how her books are children's literature.

She belongs to a certain school of children's writers, who are careful to be responsible. Hard work and good manners are seen as important, whereas selfishness and rudeness are not. Bad characters reform, thanks to the school (or Joey), and her bad girls are rarely allowed to leave school without being changed for the better. If writing for adults I think there would be more moral ambiguity (and even so, EBD occasionally shows us incompletely redeemed pupils - though they're not seen as ideal Chalet girls).
Author:  Cel [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
This is an interesting topic. I was listening to a radio show the other night on which children's authors were discussing children's literature and specifically 'crossover' fiction - writing which appeals to both children and adults. They didn't specifically mention EBD, although Enid Blyton was discussed and generally deemed to not fall under the crossover category, mainly due to the lack of depth of character and plot in her stories. They did draw a distinction between children's books which are re-read by the original readers as adults for nostalgic reasons (such as EB), and books which can be enjoyed for the first time as an adult reader (the Harry Potter books seemed to be the prime example of these). Although you get the sense with the Potter books that JK Rowling was very deliberately writing for both a child and adult audience (though that's only my own sense of it, could be completely wrong!).
Another thing I remember thinking recently is that there seemed to be far less of a divide between children's and adult literature in 19th/early 20th century writing. Lots of very popular books for children - the Katy books, the earlier girls' and boys' school stories like Angela Brazil's or the Billy Bunter books - have a complexity of language that you just don't find in most children's books today. Which probably explains why these ones have endured...
Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Slightly OT, but there's an interesting article, on the subject of buying suitable books for children, called TEN SECONDS: Running the Hurdles with Harry Potter (you have to scroll down the page a little to read it).

Back on topic, I pretty much agree with everything Emma A said. EBD was definitely writing for children, but her books - moreso the earlier ones than the later - are well-crafted. Although readers have to suspend their disbelief a little (just how many times can you get stuck up a mountain? and so on...) EBD's characters are alive, and right from the first book adult readers are given adult characters with realistic adult problems - Madge has care of a younger sister, and little to no income; she struggles with doing what is practical and what is compassionate when she takes on Juliet; she has to choose between her newly-established school and security when she's given an offer of marriage.

The fact that the adults in CS land are so involved in the lives of the children is, I think, another mark in its favour. Lots of children's books revolve around children not telling adults what's going on in their lives which as an adult I find pretty irritating - but in the Chalet School students can usually find a sympathetic adult, whether it's Miss Annersley or Joey in the later books, or Madge and Mademoiselle in the earlier.
Author:  Mel [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
I would say that EBD definitely begins with an adult slant. The series starts with Madge Bettany starting a school, not Joey going to her sister's school. EBD thinks she is writing books for girls, but is in fact simply writing novels. These books are her forte. If you read Jean of Storms, her only deliberately 'adult' book there is very little difference in tone. It is the usual theme of a single woman landed with orphaned relatives. The only bit that might not be in the CS books is a rather dire lovers' tiff, with much flashing of eyes and hair-tossing (takes place on a train!)
Author:  abbeybufo [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Nightwing wrote:
Slightly OT, but there's an interesting article, on the subject of buying suitable books for children, called TEN SECONDS: Running the Hurdles with Harry Potter (you have to scroll down the page a little to read it).

Thanks for that link Nightwing - very telling.
Author:  Róisín [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Mel wrote:
If you read Jean of Storms, her only deliberately 'adult' book there is very little difference in tone.


Yes! I was absolutely struck by this the first time I read JOS. I bought it thinking 'ooooh, EBD doing adult' but it's no different to Maids, or Joey Goes, really.

Cel wrote:
Another thing I remember thinking recently is that there seemed to be far less of a divide between children's and adult literature in 19th/early 20th century writing. Lots of very popular books for children - the Katy books, the earlier girls' and boys' school stories like Angela Brazil's or the Billy Bunter books - have a complexity of language that you just don't find in most children's books today. Which probably explains why these ones have endured...


And then there are the 'classics' of course which are regarded as children's lit. now but weren't then. I think I remember reading an interview with LM Montgomery where she said something along the lines of her audience being college age girls.

On another note, of course, just because a book features a child, or the story of a child, it doesn't follow that the book is 'children's literature' or even suitable reading for children.
Author:  LizzieC [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Cel wrote:
I was listening to a radio show the other night on which children's authors were discussing children's literature and specifically 'crossover' fiction - writing which appeals to both children and adults. They didn't specifically mention EBD, although Enid Blyton was discussed and generally deemed to not fall under the crossover category, mainly due to the lack of depth of character and plot in her stories.


This is a particularly interesting quote in this discussion because it pretty much describes how I came in to the Chalet School. My favourite books for a long time were Blytons - the Secret Seven and Famous Five, moving on when I was a bit older to her school books - the Naughtiest Girl, Mallory Towers and St Clare's. It was only as I was finding her books unsatisfying and beginning to grow out of them and leave them behind that I came to EBD and the Chalet School. This was despite having had the 2in1 School at/Jo of in my book case for as long as I had been reading school stories, it having been purchased for me by my mother from a charity shop. I had tried reading it many times, but always gave up by the third or fourth chapter in. It was only when I was leaving primary school and finding Blyton unsatisfying that I could get into the Chalet books.

Wow. That was a rather long winded way of saying not very much! :mrgreen:

ETA:
Róisín wrote:
I think I remember reading an interview with LM Montgomery where she said something along the lines of her audience being college age girls.


That's also really interesting. I first read AOGG when I was 9, and read it over again several times after that but I didn't really get it and truly enjoy it until I was in sixth form college (16+), which was when I finally bought all the other Annes - and loved them.
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
I completely agree with what everyone else has said about there being less of a defining line between "children's" and "adult's" books in the past. Also, I think that when I read some of the well-known children's books as a young child, perhaps younger than the audience originally envisaged by the author, I missed some of what they were getting at - for example, the first time I read The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe I just thought it was really great that Aslan'd come back to life by magic and it never occurred to me for a second that it was some sort of Resurrection allegory.

As other people have said, EBD was definitely writing for children, and some of the more unlikely coincidences seem a little bit silly when reading the books as an adult, but her characters and plots are far better developed than Enid Blyton's and even DFB's, and unusual in that the adults play such an important role.

There are also things which interest adults now whch wouldn't have been applicable at the time they were written (if that makes sense!): as time goes on and society changes then the social context in which the books were written becomes interesting. (I got SO depressed when I saw items from the 1980s in a museum once!)
Author:  Abi [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Alison H wrote:
(I got SO depressed when I saw items from the 1980s in a museum once!)


I went in a museum a while ago and they had my hoover :shock: .

On topic, I agree about finding the social context of the books interesting. I especially like this with the War books, as attitudes have changed quite significantly since the time of the War (though of course EBD actually treats it in a far more mature way than many GO authors).

I must also admit that there's quite an element of escapism and fantasy in my reading of EBD's (and other GO) books - the feeling that you know everything will turn out ok, that you can predict the storylines and can always tell who the bad guy is and will always get his/her comeuppance in the end.
Author:  jennifer [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
I went back to Blyton recently, and found the language much, much simpler than EBD or EJO - a smaller vocabulary, simpler grammar and so on.

The more enduring kiddie lit has two things going for it. First, it's generally written at a high enough level that it can be enjoyed by adults, with a reasonably high vocabulary level and writing style, and interesting plots and themes. The second aspect is the cultural context. Even as a kid, I loved reading older kids books, like AoGG and Little House on the Prairie, but had no interest whatsoever in reading modern books set in those times, as the flavour was totally different.

As an aside, I find that in modern literature, Fantasy is one of the areas where there is a lot of crossover. There are a lot of adult fantasy authors that can be read by children and adolescents - Terry Pratchett as a prime example. There are also a lot of nominally YA or children's authors that I'll still happily read - Robin McKinley, Tamora Pierce, Philip Pullman, JK Rowling and so on.
Author:  Kathy_S [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Madeleine L'Engle, who published in a variety of genres, wrote extensively on what she considered the absurdity of pigeonholing writers as "children's writers" or books as "children's books." For example, in her workshops, she asked participants to write something about an incident from childhood without targeting a juvenile audience--to show that the writers produced better "children's literature" if they didn't think they were writing only for children. She also had a few things to say about the evils of an impoverished vocabulary, opinions on why some "children's books" had endured better than others, etc., but here are a few more general quotes from Chapter 7 of her Walking on Water:
Quote:
Whether a story is to be marketed for grown-ups or for children, the writer writes for himself, out of his own need, otherwise the story will lack reality.

Quote:
Added to the assumption that if you don't have enough talent to write for adults, you might try writing a book for children, is the further insult that if you really work hard, and discover that you have more talent than you thought you had, you might advance enough to write a book for adults. If you are not good enough to write a book for adults, you are certainly not good enough to write a book for children.

Quote:
The techniques of fiction are the techniques of fiction. They hold as true for Beatrix Potter as they do for Fyodor Dostoyevsky. Characterization, style, theme, are as important in a children's book as in a novel for grown-ups. Tastes, as always, will differ (spinach vs. beets again.) A child is not likely to identify with the characters in Faulkner's Sanctuary. Books like A Wrinkle in Time may seem too difficult to some parents. But if a book is not good enough for a grown-up, it is not good enough for a child.

Quote:
A children's book is any book a child will read.
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
I remember reading that in one of her books and she used Peter Rabbit as an example and how Beatrix Potter used the word sporific (I think thats how you spell it) to describe Peter Rabbit after having eaten all the lettuces and said these days it wouldn't have been used as it was too hard for children to understand according to critics and publishers.

She also said that many of her books weren't published when she first wrote them such as Meet the Austens because she dealt with themes such as death and so she was told kids wouldn't want to read that.

I think some of the most enduring children's books I've read have been the ones who deal with those kinds of themes and who are afraid to write about difficult topics.

I think Roald Dahl once said that you know if a children's book is good because adults like to read it too. And I think there will be very few enduring children's books from this generation, especially American ones because they are oversimplified so much. I don't think adults credit children with the depths of understanding that they are capable of or of growing into.
Author:  Róisín [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Kathy_S wrote:
Quote:
Added to the assumption that if you don't have enough talent to write for adults, you might try writing a book for children, is the further insult that if you really work hard, and discover that you have more talent than you thought you had, you might advance enough to write a book for adults. If you are not good enough to write a book for adults, you are certainly not good enough to write a book for children.


This was exactly Antonia Forest's plan, wasn't it? :lol:
Author:  Emma A [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Jill Paton Walsh, for example, was a well-known and respected children's author - I think she won the Carnegie Medal for one of her books - and yet hawked her first "adult" book around publisher after publisher before it was taken on (and then won the Booker Prize, IIRC).
Author:  MJKB [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
When I was starting to grow out of the Enid Blyton books, specifically the school stories, I felt fraustrated that the characters were not futher developed. I wanted to know more about Darrell et al at home, and I'd have loved to know more about the teachers' lives, their ages, families etc. THat was essentially the difference I saw between the CS and other school stories. For me, it is the reason the CS hooked me into adulthood. I derive fantastic fun out of discussing Joey and Madge and the rest of the cast in this forum and look forward to new topics to discuss - there seems to be an endless supply of material too!
Author:  Kirsty [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
The thing that I find interesting about books for the young, but having the ability to "cross-over" to an adult readership, is that adults are embarassed to be seen reading them. For me, a good book is a good book, no matter who it is targetted at. And the best writers can write at a number of levels - at a basic plot level (bad girl makes good), and then the potential reasons behind the reason for the "bad" girl which will interest older readers, but will go straight over the head of younger readers without spoiling the enjoyment of the story at a whole.

But I agree with others that there aren't as many "classics" being written now, and I'd recommend LM Montgomery or Arthur Ransome before newer authors to people who are looking for "good" books for their kids to read (I also recommend EBD of course - but she's not as easy to find in libraries nowdays :lol: )
Author:  Nightwing [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Fiona Mc wrote:
And I think there will be very few enduring children's books from this generation, especially American ones because they are oversimplified so much. I don't think adults credit children with the depths of understanding that they are capable of or of growing into.


I don't think that's entirely true. Publishers and marketing these days push a lot more for writing for very specific age ranges, which means a lot of authors are very limited in what they can actually write. I think American authors suffer from this more than those from other countries - and at the same time, there's been almost a Renaissance of British authors in the wake of Harry Potter, with writers like Dianna Wynne Jones suddenly becoming very popular even though they've been writing for decades.

Having said that, there are still American children's and YA authors who manage to write very good books: Sherman Alexie, Trenton Lee Stewart, David Almond, Katrina DiCamillo and Jacqueline Woodson, to name a few. There's also authors whose books have probably been around long enough now to start considering them heading towards 'classic' status - Katherine Paterson, Beverley Cleary, Louis Sachar and Lois Lowry.
Author:  MJKB [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
I must make a point of reading some of the books Nightwing mentions. So far I've stuck to the classics - the Anne books, CS Lewis, LMA,Susan Coolidge etc. They simply make me feel happy and cosy. I like Jacqueline Wilson and admire Raold Dahl. I gobbled up the Harry Potters and was a happy woman when number seven ended so satisfactorly (could have done without the epilogue). Pullman's books chill me to the bone though I aknowlege their depth and, I suppose, greatness.
Author:  abbeybufo [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Do try Katherine Paterson, MJKB, whoever else you don't. Not sure where to say to start, but the loosely connected pair 'Lyddie' and 'Jip' are New England historical, 'Bridge to Terabithia', 'Great Gilly Hopkins' and 'Park's Quest' about 'modern' children - but of course some of the 'modern' ones must look a bit historical to children now, being set in the 1970/80s! Of course this only scratches the surface of her writing, but may be a way in :D
Author:  Sunglass [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Róisín wrote:
Writing for the young is quite a different activity to writing for adults; EBD wrote purely for children excepting that one Jean of Storms.


I think EBD, like other GO authors and someone like LM Montgomery, Susan Coolidge, Laura Ingalls Wilder and Louisa M Alcott (who all write about girls from childhood/adolescence through to adulthood), is writing more for girls than 'children' - and by 'girls' I mean (judging by what EBD seems to mean by it) anywhere from around ten till somewhere in their 20s. There doesn't seem to have been so much anxiety in her day about issues being of 'relevance' to child readers, and as someone else said, the strict age bracketing for children's books didn't exist.

Certainly the girls' classics she seems to have drawn on a lot didn't see that there was anything unusual in expecting their readership to be equally interested in adolescent mishaps and newly-marrieds. I think she's able to lean on the genre of the school story, but she uses it (and the various 'holiday books' involving the Maynards) to stuff in all kind of characters and situations which she thinks will be of interest to the 'girl' - which is maybe a category we don't really have a sense of any more..?

Róisín wrote:
But are the Chalet School books really books just for children? If so, what is their great appeal for adults? Are they, as children's books, moralistic or didactic, rather than reflective of reality? Did she stick rigidly to those plots and themes which she knew would sell to an audience made up of children? If she had written this series for adults, what would be different?


Personally, I read them as comfort books, often in the bath - Eustacia is currently propped up by the taps - the way I eat porridge when I'm feeling fragile. I have other friends also for whom the CS is Preferred Bathtime Reading and continues to exert a strange fascination, despite the fact they acknowledge that in some ways EBD is a terribly formulaic writer. I'd be the first to admit they are limited and moralistic and repetitive, and I wouldn't even consider picking up 'adult' books which are that formulaic, like Mills and Boons. But I feel an enormous affection for the CS books. If I try to analyse it, it has something to do with the relentless detail of her depiction of the CS, and the variations on the same theme - there's something soothing about it. Plus another part of me is genuinely interested in what you can learn about changing attitudes to illness, social class, or to girls and education/marriage etc, and social history in general from them.

I've never read Jean of Storms, or any of the non CS books, apart from The School by the River, which I thought was much poorer than the weakest CS novel, so I suspect familiarity is the heart of the matter for me...

Oh, and I wouldn't discount the appeal of the CBB either, for giving a sense of an adult fan community all reading the same author! As someone who is continually astounded that my students find it so difficult to remember character names and subplots in a couple of novels they've just read, I am always impressed by the sheer detailed knowledge with which many people here engage with a lot of novels, which beats the hell out of my undergraduates and any reading group I've ever attended! I'm sure there must be people here who would read EBD less often if there weren't regular discussions oon here...?
Author:  MJKB [ Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Thanks, Abbetbufo, I will.
Author:  Tor [ Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Quote:
I have other friends also for whom the CS is Preferred Bathtime Reading and continues to exert a strange fascination, despite the fact they acknowledge that in some ways EBD is a terribly formulaic writer. I'd be the first to admit they are limited and moralistic and repetitive, and I wouldn't even consider picking up 'adult' books which are that formulaic, like Mills and Boons.


Agreed! I also read the CS in the bath (often a bubble bath... the horror!). And, as much as I love them, I have to say I do not think I'd recommend them to children (or their parents) unless the child had already expressed an interest in boarding school/GO literature. Whereas I would push Little Women and Anne of GG. And I will always trumpet on about Diana Wynne Jones (MJKB, make sure you check out her stuff... I sense you would share DWJ sense of humor!).
Author:  abbeybufo [ Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Themes: Writing for the Young
Tor wrote:
And I will always trumpet on about Diana Wynne Jones (MJKB, make sure you check out her stuff... I sense you would share DWJ sense of humor!).


Oh yes! DWJ is one of my all-time favourites :D Cannot reccommend her highly enough 8)
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