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Girls: Upper Class Girls and Heiresses
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4155
Author:  jennifer [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Girls: Upper Class Girls and Heiresses
For example: Elisaveta, the von Escheneaus, Jesanne Gellibrand, the Raphaels, the von Rothenfels, Thekla von Stift, Jose Helston, Deira O'Hagan, the le Cadoulecs, Maria Balbini, Elaine Gilling (very upper class and nobility) and Cornelia Flower, Evadne Lannis, Emerence Hope (the extremely wealthy).

What do you think of EBD's portrayal of girls who were upper class socially, or just very, very, wealthy? What about their interactions with more lower class girls? Is high class or money seen as a good or bad thing?
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Is Elaine Gilling (the Saint?) an aristocrat? I have no memory of this at all, beyond a faint recollection that she's something of a snob in her response to some of the CS girls' impressive lineages.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:04 am ]
Post subject: 
I think EBD is very clear that being well-born or wealthy does not make you a good person. It's upbringing, and a girl's own actions, that make her what she is.

EBD tells her readers, through Madge and Joey, that people aren't to be admired solely for their rank or wealth. At school, it's the school hierarchy that matters - mistresses, prefects, girls - and girls are leaders because of their own personalities, not because their fathers have money or titles.

Elisaveta, Wanda and Marie are delightful girls, Thekla and Elaine aren't. Thekla's behaviour towards bank manager's daughter Frieda and shopkeeper's daughter Sophie is condemned.

Cornelia and Emerence have problems when they first come to the school, but not because they are wealthy. They and Evadne do flaunt their wealth at times, but because they want to give pleasure to their friends, not just to show off (Emmie buying the clock for Margot, for example).

Diana Skelton is a girl from a wealthy family, but again it's made clear that it's bad training from her mother and her previous school that have made her what she is, not her wealth - her father, it's emphasised, is a decent self made man.
Author:  jennifer [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:19 am ]
Post subject: 
It's mentioned that Vera Smithers idolizes Elaine because her father was a baronet - Vera was the one most impressed by titles.
Author:  Laura V [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I would like to have seen more aristocratic girls in the later books and it seems strange that there were so few ( can only think of Jose Helston) considering the Chalet School's location and reputation.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
The von Eschenaus and Wertheims were aristocracy, but I think EBD gets them all very mixed up and forgets their aristocratic origins. And given her insistence that everyone is equal at school, there really isn't any need to mention a girl's lineage anyway, unless it's for plot purposes, as with Elisaveta. So there might have been some that we just don't hear of because it's not relevant to the story EBD is telling. She doesn't make a big thing of Jose's origins, does she - it's just something thats mentioned in passing. Her status in school is that of the daughter of an Old Girl who is a close friend of Joey's, rather than the granddaughter of the former king of Belsornia.
Author:  Ex-Admin-Liss [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
She doesn't make a big thing of Jose's origins, does she - it's just something thats mentioned in passing. Her status in school is that of the daughter of an Old Girl who is a close friend of Joey's, rather than the granddaughter of the former king of Belsornia.


There is that slightly closed, almost incestuous feel to the later books, where status has nothing to do with independent characteristics (wealth, class, whatever), and is everything to do with one's connection to the school, both in how closely one is involved (being a real Chalet girl, bopping around being form prefect etc, conforming like crazy), and in the family connection: all the 'best' girls have family members who were at the school. I think class/wealth etc were far more noticeable and noted in the earlier books, and though it wasn't important inside the books - the school structure was the important thing even then - EBD did make a point of it to show that it wasn't important (sorry - that got away from me a bit!!).
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
She doesn't make a big thing of Jose's origins, does she - it's just something thats mentioned in passing. Her status in school is that of the daughter of an Old Girl who is a close friend of Joey's, rather than the granddaughter of the former king of Belsornia.


Yes, in fact there's plain old aristocracy, which makes no difference inside the school, and there's CS aristocracy - are you related to the Founding Family? Or one of the original pupils? With the school in Tyrol? Daughter of an Old Girl? One of Joey's offspring, many, many adoptive nieces or god-daughters or wards? Then you are CS aristocracy. - the closer to Joey, the closer to the Throne.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thekla and Vera were the only 2 people who really seemed to make an issue of it. It becomes an issue in other ways, e.g. that some people don't need to work for a living and others do - Rosalie Way is mentioned as being the only one of her group of friends who's going "into society" - but it doesn't really seem to affect the girls' friendships.
Author:  Tor [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
hat struck me (just re-read Bride) was that despite EBD's insistence that people at the CS *are not snobs* many, many times, that Diana Skelton did come in for a wee bit of snobbery.

I accept that this was mentioned to make her seem less likable, but the continuous assertion that she didn't have a right to her airs and graces because she was the daughter of a self made man really rankled.

I know that EBD would also have said that a girl of less humble origins also wouldn't have the right to turn her nose up at x,y or z as well, but really. There is even a line - can't remember it exactly - in the staff room that starts with the assertion that the CS abhors snobbery, goes on to praise Diana's dad for working his way up from nothing, to then saying that Diana really was a nobody, given who her father was!!! Some weird logic there :roll:

I think this might give some hint to EBD's own mixed up view towards class. Hell maybe most of us British have the same issues - proclaiming to ignore the class system, but being so so very attuned to it!!!

I also hate the continual references to accents. Diana had a displeasing faint cockney twang, despite all her upper class schooling. Marked her out as 'other'! Of course this is a very realistic of reactions of people even today in the UK. There are definite connotations of class (all the in-group/out-group identification) that go alongside accent, and can make a real difference.

Tor (stepping down off soap box, suspecting her own displeasing, faint cockney twang comes out when angry :wink: )
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think EBD would have found it difficult to write the world of the extremely wealthy from the inside - even the 'ordinary' CS girl generally comes from a more socially elevated background than her own. And I imagine half of the board has already heard my opinions on EBD's own class anxieties and how them come out in the treatment of Joan Baker and Ros Lilley, so I won't start on it again...

The CS I suppose does act as a leveller, as I suppose schools or educational institutions often do - it's later you realise that other people have trust funds and titles! (Yes, I am bitter!) Mind you, even when we see (briefly) Elizaveta at home at the palace in Belsornia, we see her pouring out tea and 'playing mother' for her father in her sitting room in a very ordinary middle-class way - and then of course she's removed, very happily, to the CS almost immediately, and turns up after the war as a woman who has to work with her hands to feed her children.

Do the von Eschenaus ever get their estate and wealth back after the war, incidentally? I was about to say that EBD is interested in aristocrats/royals who lose their status through war, but then it occurred to me that Simone, the only one of the Quartette who needs to work for a living, makes the opposite journey when her husband inherits a chateau - though presumably no title! I always find it hilarious (and wonderfully 1950s) that the interior of the chateau is portrayed as ancient and hideous and in need of serious renovation, which has to wait for Joey's advice. Which is to burn or sell most of the contents, flog the family jewels, board over the stone floors, buy an Aga, rip out all old features and make everything 'fresh and dainty' - ie. reinvent your ancestral chateau as Freudesheim! The ideal family and family home for EBD will always be essentially middle class and shiny, with wicker chairs and flowers and dainty cretonne - she doesn't appear to much care for mouldering tapestries and four-posters.

One thing that occurred to me -- are we to assume (given that Madge at 24 doesn't appear to have ever worked before, until starting the CS because their guardian lost all their money) that having to work for a living is a bit of a comedown for Madge? Was she one of the ones who left school to 'be' at home, essentially looking after Joey and/or the guardian and is now having to get her hands dirty a bit?
Author:  Tor [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
burn or sell most of the contents, flog the family jewels, board over the stone floors, buy an Aga, rip out all old features and make everything 'fresh and dainty'


That always makes me flinch! All the historical features gone and not a whiff of conservation! Thank heavens Pretty Maids got handed to the National Trust... Still, I guess needs must and all that.

I think I did read a reference to Marie being back in the castle - possibly also in Oberland? That's where she was and so couldn't be visited en route? Could be imagining it though.
Author:  JB [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I think I did read a reference to Marie being back in the castle - possibly also in Oberland? That's where she was and so couldn't be visited en route? Could be imagining it though.


In Coming of Age, Simone has been staying at the Chateau with Marie before their arrival at the Tiernsee.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Regarding Madge - I've been thinking about this issue for my current drabble - the impression I get is that she had never intended or expected to have to work, and that she only had to go out and earn a living after her guardian mismanaged her finances. Also, she'd spent her early years in India, where it would have been very unusual for British women to work.

We're not told much about whom she and Joey lived with before School At, but I would think that they'd lived with their guardian and Madge had acted as housekeeper as well as looking after Joey. It's a common enough theme in books that a young woman from an upper middle class or even a gentry family has to find a job after a reversal in the family fortunes - had she not had Joey to look after maybe she'd have followed the traditional route of becoming a governess.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
had she not had Joey to look after maybe she'd have followed the traditional route of becoming a governess.


Didn't she say that if she hadn't had Joey to consider, she might have gone out to India with Dick and started her school there, or she might have looked for a post in a school? Madge as she was in the early books would be wasted as a governess in a family - she had far too much drive and energy and ability.
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
One other thing that occurred to me in relation to the 'levelling' effect of the school in class terms - would it be fair to say there are any suggestions that the CS is quite selective in the kind of girl it takes? The school doesn't appear to do anything as vulgar as advertise, ever, and huge numbers of the girls already have some connection to the school or the San before arriving, so it's a kind of word of mouth situation within a set of comfortably-off social networks.

Miss Annersley and Bill are quite concerned at the beginning of Problem when Joan Baker's grandfather writes to ask if the school will take her, and on a surface level, their dubiousness is because the term has already started. But it's also interesting in terms of how they respond to having a complete stranger, who sounds as though she may not be socially OK (name Baker definitely suggests this, as does Joan's grandfather's over-elaborate prose, and the suggestion of changed circumstances in the family), offered to them:

You certainly can't go round asking all the girls who have come to us between then and now if they know a girl from Worthing possibly named Something Baker. And we don't even know if he's her paternal or maternal grandparent. The name may be quite something different."

"I know that. That's what helps to make it so difficult. I'd write to Madge Russell, but she's up to the eyes at present and anyhow, Worthing is a long way from Llan-y-penllan and the chances are she couldn't do anything about it." Miss Annersley frowned as she skimmed through the pages once more. "I think this is where we consult the others. They may have some ideas on the subject. What's the time?"

And then, later:

"Well, whoever Herbert William Baker may be, he doesn't give you much information about his grand-daughter," she commented when she had finished. "Do you want us to say whether we think you ought to take her? Because it strikes me as a very chancy thing.'

What I get from this is that it's somewhat unusual for someone who hasn't some connection to the school to write offering a pupil, and it's enough of an issue for the Heads to consider contacting Madge in England and asking her to 'do something about it' - what do they mean? Find out who the Bakers are and OK them? Someone, I think maybe Polly Heriot's guardian offers references, when he asks the school to take her - would that have been normal procedure for the CS?
Author:  Tor [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
It is interesting about the admissions aspect. Obviously it is a useful plot device to sometimes be able to accommodate an entire school, whilst at others only really have room because some of the maynard/bettany's have gone to canada, or the right M.K. Gordon didn't turn up, but even so....

Most successful public schools today seem to require you to pay for the privilege of putting your child down on their waiting list, and by the later years I get the impression that the school is supposed to be seen in the exclusive, successful category (someone, somewhere says the fees don't come cheap).

On the same score, though, there has always been family traditions in public schools. Son's going to their fathers old school, the old school tie etc, and all the affiliated networks that centre around this sort of thing (still remember freshers week many years ago where my new chum who was from Rugby charging across the union to shake hands with someone wearing his school tie. And the other bloke responded positively... I'd have been horrified if a stranger had done that to me even if they had gone to my old school). So maybe that incestuous aspect isn't that unusual.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
They had a prospectus, so presumably parents would write to the school and request one ... although no-one ever seems to've read it properly :lol: .

There are a lot of girls who have connections to Old Girls, but it would have been fairly usual for people to send their children to their own old schools. Also, I suppose if you were sending your child to a boarding school, especially one abroad, you'd prefer one that either you knew or that'd been recommended rather than sending the kid into the unknown. And there are still plenty of girls who arrive there without having any previous connection with the school. It just gets silly when Melanie and Adrienne turn out to be long-lost relatives of Old Girls without it having any relevance to the storylin!

Considering how popular the school was meant to be, there's never any mention of a waiting list or of people putting children's names down at birth, though ...

Regarding references, it's understandable that they'd have wanted assurance that the parents could afford to pay the fees - or even that the parents weren't likely to abandon their daughters like the Carricks did! Also, they presumably asked for letters from previous head teachers so that they'd know if the girl in question was likely to be a problem in any way, and Joan's grandfather didn't mention the name of her old school in his letter (although they could just have written back and asked him!). The way Miss A puts it does sound snobby, though :? .
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Oh, I can see all the reasons for the parents to want to send their daughters somewhere that came thoroughly recommended, I just find it a bit odd that a pupil who didn't come with that kind of link should be regarded as such an oddity by the school, when things are only at the stage of an exchange of letters. (Especially if, as you say, they will send out prospectuses to anyone who asks for them - even if they are never read!) And I can quite understand the school would eventually need a financial reference for fee purposes (especially post-Juliet!), and something from the girl's former school, if she had one - but surely Miss Annersley/Miss Dene would simply have written back and asked for those as a matter of course.

What I find weirdest about that scene - and the only thing that really screams 'exclusivity' at me - is what Madge, in Wales, might be expected to 'do' about it. It's the only thing that can't really be explained away by financial references or information about Joan's education. Or maybe I'm misreading that - but I can't see what Madge might be being asked to do other than snoop.

I get this vision of Madge setting off to do social detective work on the Bakers, and her telegraph saying NO BAKER STOP COMMON STOP getting to the CS just too late as Joan starts unpacking her lipstick.

If Thekla von Stift was horrified that the CS took in the daughters of bank managers and owners of department stores (trade), you can imagine what she'd have made of Joan. I'm sorry they weren't at school togehther...
Author:  jennifer [ Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:24 am ]
Post subject: 
In the early days there are more aristocratic members, which is also when the school was much more cozy and homelike. I am a bit surprised that with the exception of Thekla all the aristocratic and wealthy girls settle down happily into upper middle class small boarding school life with no problems at all, including sports and dormitory chores and gym tunics. The school was still pretty basic then.

It's an interesting point about the school aristocracy. They still have a very, very strong class system that others challenge at their peril, but it's not based on social class or wealth. We could rank the classes :D

Royalty: The Bettanys and their offspring, plus Robin, with Joey as Queen in the later books.

Nobility: Wards and adoptees of the Bettanys, daughters of old girls from the early Tyrol days, or daughters of previous head girls.

Lesser Nobility: daughters and relatives of old mistresses, or later old girls, plus close connections of current mistresses or friends of the Bettanys.

Middle Class: People who came to the school on the recommendation of current or previous Chalet School people, San connections.

The Commoners: People with no previous ties to the Chalet school.

The Lower Class: People who don't acknowledge the superiority of the royalty and nobility in the scheme of the school + most of the school's household staff.
Author:  NineLivesBurra [ Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
I wonder if Class and money were more known about in the early books because of when they were set. They were all pre-war and during a time when the Great Depression was going on in many parts of the Western World.

Class was still an enormously important thing for people during this time whereas post-war the class divide seems to have largely disappeared in many areas.

Perhaps that is one reason why Class distinctions are not really discussed in the later books?
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
jennifer wrote:
In the early days there are more aristocratic members, which is also when the school was much more cozy and homelike. I am a bit surprised that with the exception of Thekla all the aristocratic and wealthy girls settle down happily into upper middle class small boarding school life with no problems at all, including sports and dormitory chores and gym tunics. The school was still pretty basic then.


Absolutely - we hear a lot about some new girls encountering their cubicles and bathrooms etc for the first time, but nothing about aristocratic horror at the lack of privacy and comfort!

I'm charmed by the idea of the CS having different classes of boarder, as in various 19th/early 20thc novels - like Sara Crewe in 'A Little Princess' being a 'parlour boarder' with her own French maid and suite of personally-decorated rooms. Thekla could have been a parlour boarder, and been shocked at Marie, who is busy being a jolly, ordinary muck-in-with-the-rest CS girl, choosing to be in the Green dormitory with her friends...
Author:  JayB [ Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I am a bit surprised that with the exception of Thekla all the aristocratic and wealthy girls settle down happily into upper middle class small boarding school life with no problems at all,


The von Eschenaus knew the Maranis (and the Mensches?) before they came to the school, didn't they? So it wasn't as if they'd never mixed with ordinary business people before (and Kurt von E. himself worked for a living, so it wasn't something they considered beneath them.) And Wanda and Marie had very probably read the same English school stories that Gisela had read, so they'd have had some idea what to expect.
Author:  Katya [ Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Yes, in fact there's plain old aristocracy, which makes no difference inside the school, and there's CS aristocracy - are you related to the Founding Family? Or one of the original pupils? With the school in Tyrol? Daughter of an Old Girl? One of Joey's offspring, many, many adoptive nieces or god-daughters or wards? Then you are CS aristocracy. - the closer to Joey, the closer to the Throne.


All Chalet Girls are equal, but some are more equal than others? :wink:
Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:18 am ]
Post subject: 
In regards to Joan and the letter between Hilda/Nell and Herbert Baker, I don't think Hilda/Nell meant it on any snobbish basis but more that they didn't know anything about him. Hilda appeared to have met all prospective clients or at least a lot of them because in Does it Again, Hilda can't meet the parent of 2 prospective due to the flu epidemic; and there isn't a hope she can fly out and meet this gentleman within the next couple of weeks so Joan wouldn't miss much of the term and Madge might. Hilda even meets Mr Barass in regards to Clem Barass and Richenda's father when conducting interviews.

In regards to the Von Eschenau's and Elisaveta, maybe they wanted to be treated like everyone else and have friends. Elisaveta did live a very lonely life and the Von Eschenau's were very egaliterian. and Joan showed there is snobbery in every class especially with her attitude towards Rosamund.
The other thing I've found it's often the people who have the money, class etc and for umpteen generations tend to be less snobby than those trying to attain it and so I could see the middle class girls being snobbier than the upper class ones.

In regards to Di Skelton, the staff respected her father but found Diana conceited and snobbish and Hilda didn't want her family story getting out because the girls would be unkind over it especially as Diana was being snobbish towards the girls
Author:  macyrose [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fiona Mc wrote:
Quote:
In regards to Di Skelton, the staff respected her father but found Diana conceited and snobbish and Hilda didn't want her family story getting out because the girls would be unkind over it especially as Diana was being snobbish towards the girls

I'm not really clear why Hilda is so adamant about keeping Diana's background a secret. She says that children can be heartless and might make cruel use of that information. But aren't the girls taught that it's what they themselves are that counts and not what their parents are? Also Diana's father made his fortune through hard work and there's nothing wrong with that - it's not like he made it through criminal activities or shady dealings. I can certainly see why the other girls would object to Diana's snobbishness and want to take her down a peg or two but surely a proper Chalet School girl wouldn't go about it by being mean about her background and if some girls did (I guess by saying her father is a self made man so she has no reason to look down on the other girls) surely they would be thoroughly told off for it (like Thekla was earlier in the series)? It's so different from Problem where Rosamund is encouraged to be open and proud of her background but by trying to keep Diana's background a secret it's like it's something she shouldn't be proud of.

In the early years of the school Jo suggests that Elisaveta come to school as an ordinary girl so that the girls might only think of her as hochgeborn since some of the Continental girls (why only the Continental girls?) have an exaggerated idea of rank. Though when her lineage is revealed (at the SSM meeting) the girls are suprised but it doesn't seem to make any difference to them. But the whole princess in disguise scenario seems to suggest that matters of rank/class might matter to some of the girls.
Author:  LizzieC [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
macyrose wrote:
(why only the Continental girls?)


Probably for the same reason that only servant girls were silly enough to believe in superstitions.

I suspect it's some sort of steriotyping on EBDs part and I suspect she wasn't even aware she was doing it.
Author:  JayB [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
LizzieC wrote:
macyrose wrote:
(why only the Continental girls?)


Probably for the same reason that only servant girls were silly enough to believe in superstitions.

I suspect it's some sort of steriotyping on EBDs part and I suspect she wasn't even aware she was doing it.


It was because of the recent history of Austria. Madge was thinking specifically of girls who
Quote:
came from Austrian families which were strong Imperialists

Austria had ceased to be an Empire and become a republic (and lost huge amounts of territory) in 1918, less than ten years before Princess was published. Many people deeply regretted the change. Madge might have thought the girls would see Elisaveta as a symbol of what they had lost and treat her with exaggerated reverence as a result.
Author:  Tor [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
m not really clear why Hilda is so adamant about keeping Diana's background a secret.


I agree macyrose - that's what I meant about the fact that I felt Diana did come in for some snobbery, despite protestations to the contrary form all and sundry that they weren't snobs.

Still, it is a pretty common thing for people to believe they aren't (insert prejudice as needed), so I guess it makes sense. But it did rile me, as I posted earlier. And I guess realizing that a prejudice is wrong/unsavoury and aspiring to not have it, yet succumbing to it anyway is vastly preferable to thinking it is perfectly ok to think, act and say certain things.

That is the general take home message of the CS - snobbery is bad, even if EBD doesn't quite manage it herself or for her characters all the time. And that is to be applauded. I do wonder if she was actually trying to portray the reality of peoples actions vs ideals or if it was just an extension of her own issues on this (and other subjects).

Very interesting about Austria and loss of empire, JayB. I always forget that when reading the Tirol CS books, when it really is very relevant to the series.
Author:  Kate [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
I suppose with Diana, the girls wouldn't be so much snobby about her background as conscious that she would be. And if Diana was being horrid about other people's backgrounds, the obvious thing would be to hit her where it hurts - her own. It wouldn't necessarily mean that the girls were prejudiced, just fed up with her and wanting to get their own back. It wouldn't be right and they'd be told off, but I can see that Miss A would want to prevent it rather than cure it. Whereas if Diana was a more sensible girl - like Sophie Hamel for example - it would be common knowledge and that would be fine.
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fiona Mc wrote:
In regards to Joan and the letter between Hilda/Nell and Herbert Baker, I don't think Hilda/Nell meant it on any snobbish basis but more that they didn't know anything about him. Hilda appeared to have met all prospective clients or at least a lot of them because in Does it Again, Hilda can't meet the parent of 2 prospective due to the flu epidemic; and there isn't a hope she can fly out and meet this gentleman within the next couple of weeks so Joan wouldn't miss much of the term and Madge might. Hilda even meets Mr Barass in regards to Clem Barass and Richenda's father when conducting interviews.


I was pretty sure I remembered references to interviews between Head and parents, but couldn't think where - thanks. But I still think it indicates a certain amount of CS exclusivity. Partly, the suggestion is that Hilda is interviewing the parents, rather than vice versa, which may sound a little odd to our modern consumerist ears - that putting down the cash and there being a place available might not be enough to get your offspring into the CS? On what grounds might a girl be refused a place, given that we've seen the CS accept girls with very poor or unorthodox educations, and, very frequently, girls with no French or German (which you might think would be adequate grounds for refusal)? Again, you might think that the Head would be explaining to prospective parents exactly what goes on the CS (triliingualism etc), but if so, like all those unread CS prospectuses, they don't appear to pass it on to their daughters much!

I'm not sure I would characterise Hilda and Bill's reponse to Herbert Baker's letter 'snobbish' exactly, but I do think, they are reading social cues from his name, address, language, the fact that he doesn't appear to know what he should be telling them, and what he says himself about the alterations in his family's circumstances - and this is followed up by the rather offhand way in which Mademoiselle (or some other member of staff) refers to 'Herbert William Baker, whoever he might be'. I think they are registering class difference, not necessarily personally judging it.
Author:  JS [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Don't the heads also say something about having enough problems with Rosamund Lilley? I didn't take that as being particularly snobbish, but more a practical thing - she hadn't been to through the pre school/high school education system and needed a fair bit of coaching in subjects the CS thought were important (as well as losing her accent!)

Having said that, I agree with whoever said that the 'take home message' from the series is that snobbery is bad, but accept that there are plenty of inconsistencies in there, which is probably a fairly realistic representation of real life!

Just another thought - church 'aristocracy' is a bit of a theme too. Fair number of the more 'important' characters are related to high up churchmen, eg Frieda Mensch, Tom Gay and Rosalie Dean.
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Ros Lilley comment is just about her being a problem because of her lack of languages - although I find that slightly odd, because (a) the Gays specifically chose her as their scholarship recipient, and presumably the CS okayed her in advance without French and German (and if the point is to give a chance to a poorer girl, then you need to take on board that she won't be up to scratch in some subjects) and (b) a hell of a lot of the new girls from whatever educational background who arrive at the CS have little or no foreign languages, and the school takes them anyway, and expects them to catch up! (In the Tyrol days, there are some girls who don't speak ANY of the main languages - I think there are references to two Norwegians who only speak their own language! The mind boggles - could any of the staff speak Norwegian? What they did they do - sign language?)

Wouldn't it have made more sense, say, after they moved to Switzerland, to have made a rule about accepting girls over a certain age without a grounding in at least two of French, German and English?

But, to come back to issues of class and exclusivity at the CS - for girls during the CS era, it isn't possible in any case to map class straightforwardly onto education, in terms of how much education a girl arriving at the CS would have. Boys would have been straightforward - a tutor or a good prep school, and then onto their father's public school. But lots of upper-class girls would have had virtually no real education, just an ill-educated governess (who would often have had no qualifications herself) and maybe some classes in accomplishments like music and sketching. Do we ever hear anything about the lack of previous education of the wealthiest or most hochgeboren of the CS girls?
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:04 pm ]
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Sunglass wrote:
(In the Tyrol days, there are some girls who don't speak ANY of the main languages - I think there are references to two Norwegians who only speak their own language! The mind boggles - could any of the staff speak Norwegian? What they did they do - sign language?)


Thyra and Ingeborg Eriksen. They were juniors - the poor little kids must have been terrified, being left with people they couldn't communicate with :( ! Their parents were friends of Mr and Mrs Stevens. We're told that they "spoke very little other than their native Norwegian" - maybe a few words of English and German but surely not enough to understand lessons, or to be able to explain if they felt ill or anything.

Bianca di Ferrara only spoke Italian, which wasn't one of the official languages of the school although Madge and Miss Denny spoke it.

I don't know how they were supposed to manage!
Author:  jennifer [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:59 pm ]
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I can certainly see the CS vetting new students, and I can think of some good reasons for doing so.

- Making sure a single form doesn't get too many problem students at one time. One new girl with a problematic background could be an irritation to the mistress. Getting a few in a single term could seriously throw off the form's progress and affect the other students. Similarly, they have a limited amount of resources for special tutoring of new students.

- Not taking a girl who is too old, who wouldn't be able to get up to speed in the languages before she was supposed to graduate

- Not taking a girl who has problems the school isn't equipped to deal with.

- Making sure the parents having the same ideas as the school about both the course work and the ethics of the school.

They seem to apply their regulations pretty haphazardly, though.
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:34 pm ]
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jennifer wrote:
They seem to apply their regulations pretty haphazardly, though.


I suppose this is where the distinction (a) between How One Might Actually Run a Boarding School and (b) The Demands of Fiction come into conflict.

Even if you exclude girls who come to the CS in an unusual manner, you still have the multiply-expelled, the precociously-sexual, the aristocratic thug, the products of 'dysfunctional' families, the brought up like a boy, the mother's precious pet who's never spent a night away from home, the under cover royal/policeman's daughter, the girl traumatised by parents in danger/missing abroad, the neglected, the extremely physically or mentally fragile etc etc. Who are obviously needed for the story, but would presumably have been, if not actually weeded out, then at least seriously reconsidered at a parental/guardian interview if EBD were applying any kind of RL standards.

It's that problem EBD keeps coming up against, which she talks about quite explicitly when she's describing Joey's school-story-writing philosophy - how do you make a genuinely gripping story without either giving your young readers crazy ideas about bad behaviour to emulate (as in Joey's 'Malvina Wins Through' or the schoolgirl weeklies), or depicting your fictional school as a boringly perfect model of good behaviour? That's at the heart of the snobbery issue, too, as other people have been saying - EBD wants to show the CS as rising above that kind of thing, as her perfect school, yet she sometimes uses it for story purposes, and doesn't always manage to exclude her own social prejudices.
Author:  JayB [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:37 pm ]
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Quote:
I can certainly see the CS vetting new students, and I can think of some good reasons for doing so.

On top of the reasons already suggested, with so many girls from distant countries, or with parents in remote places, there would be practical questions such as:

Who is this girl's legal guardian?
Who is paying the fees?
If the parents are out of reach, who do we contact in case of emergency?
What is this girl's medical history, and who is her regular doctor, in case we need more information?

One of the first things Hilda wanted to discover when Emerence was wished on them without warning was the name of her guardian in England.

Herbert Baker didn't give them basic information such as Joan's name and date of birth, her parents' names and address, and the name of her previous school. With so little to go on, they had no way of telling whether they could take her, or even whether her parents actually wanted her to go to the CS.

Although it turned out all right in the end, Madge did make a big mistake in her first term in taking Juliet without making enquiries about the Carricks or getting references. Understandably the school would want to take steps to make sure it didn't happen again. (Interestingly, that's one storyline EBd didn't re-use, that of the girl being dumped on the school and abandoned.)
Author:  Catrin [ Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:16 pm ]
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Did the CS ever turn away any students? At the beginning of every book they seem to be dithering over where to put all the new students in the (seemingly rather elastic) school, with extensions, new dormitories, etc.

Anyway, the CS always manage to completely reform any of the reprobates on Sunglass's horrendous list - so no need for any selection policy!
Author:  jennifer [ Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:07 pm ]
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The only case I can think of where a student was turned down, even temporarily, was the girls in Wins the Trick - there wasn't room for them until the next semester, which is why they were running wild on the Platz.

It's particularly odd, as they could easily have been day girls.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:44 pm ]
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I can't remember - was it that they didn't have dormitory space, or was it that the forms were all full up? They did have a rule about having no more than 25 girls in any form. And having four new girls in the summer term, at least three of whom probably would need a lot of extra help with the languages, would have made life difficult all round.

After Yseult they did say they would take no more girls over sixteen - then they accepted Evelyn Ross a few years later. Although since her mother was in the San, it would have been well-nigh impossible to refuse.
Author:  Katherine [ Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:30 pm ]
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jennifer wrote:
The only case I can think of where a student was turned down, even temporarily, was the girls in Wins the Trick - there wasn't room for them until the next semester, which is why they were running wild on the Platz.

It's particularly odd, as they could easily have been day girls.

In New Miss Annersley says they can’t take Maria Balbini that term but I think she agrees to take her the next term when they will have room (And she doesn’t particularly want to take her). Then, as far I recall, she fails to be mentioned again?
Author:  jennifer [ Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:59 am ]
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Aha! The school obviously has a strict policy about not immediately taking students who have sworn vendettas against the school. The following term is fine, though.
Author:  JS [ Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Aha! The school obviously has a strict policy about not immediately taking students who have sworn vendettas against the school. The following term is fine, though.


Made me smile, thank you!
Author:  jenster [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:04 pm ]
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I know that at my school, girls' boarding school, we always had loads of girls who arrived not speaking anything except their own languages. One in particular was a Thai girl, who literally didn't know a thing, and she was the only one - normally we'd have a few of each nationality so they could help each other. I always felt really sorry for her..BUT she did learn fantastic English very quickly!! I think its really common in English boarding schools for there to be a mix of nationalities and there's always an understanding that their language may hold them back and they have additional ESL lessones. We had Spanish, Italian, Hong Kong Chinese to name but a few, these days I suspect there's more Eastern Europeans.
Also, the head interviewed parents (it was a two way thing really) but there was a definite thing that it wasn;'t only about being a paying consumer and finding room.
We had loads of "troublesome" girls, that the school loved, as I think it felt sorry for them or just wanted to help, but I know that they refused some kids on the basis of "wrong sort of ideas in the parents. The head told my parents. Sorry typed an essay!
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