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#1: Families: the Venables Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:04 am
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While we don't actually meet most of the Venables family, we do get a full description. Margot ran off to marry Stephen Venables, of whom her family disapproved, and moved to Australia, estranged from her family. Stephen, a not very successful farmer, turned out to be a wastrel, with jealous tendencies, and a drinking problem. Margot had five children, Jimmy, Daisy, Frankie, Steve and Primula. The three boys died of illness when Primula was an infant, followed by Stephen, by snake bite, leaving Margot destitute and with the two girls. She eventually made her way to Austria, where, with help from Joey, she reconciled with Jem. After a few years as a matron at the school, she died of general decline around the time of the move to Guernsey. Daisy and Primula were left to the care of the Russells (but spent most of their time with the Maynards). Daisy trained as a doctor, married another doctor, Laurie Rosonom, and had three kids. Primula married a young solicitor.

What do you think of the Venables family? This is one of EBD's only descriptions of an unhappy, dysfunctional marriage: why do you think she chose to introduce this situation? How do Daisy and Primula adapt to life after their mother dies, and what do you think of their guardianship situation?

Any other comments on the family?

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:55 am
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There don't seem to be many unsuccessful marriages in GO books generally - I suppose it wasn't considered a suitable thing to write about, even though EBD's own parents' marriage failed - and Stephen Venables certainly stands out as the only really "bad" husband and father in the series. Captain Carrick is a very bad father and Mr Cochrane isn't great either, but there's no suggestion that they were violent as is hinted at with Stephen.

Poor Margot really does suffer - I wish EBD had let her be happy with her daughters once she'd been reunited with Jem. She's a very interesting character whom we don't hear enough about - contrast her going to work as matron at the CS, when Primula was only 2, to Joey's plan to hang around at Die Rosen after leaving school and presumably be supported by Madge, Jem and Dick.

Daisy and Primula seem to be passed around between the Russells and the Maynards at random later on, and Primula is pretty much forgotten about for much of the time. I wish that more had been made of Daisy's achievements: there were few female doctors at the time and she deserved more recognition from the School than she got. Primula is a wasted character, really, which is a shame.

#3: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:02 am
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Alison H wrote:

Poor Margot really does suffer - I wish EBD had let her be happy with her daughters once she'd been reunited with Jem. She's a very interesting character whom we don't hear enough about - contrast her going to work as matron at the CS, when Primula was only 2, to Joey's plan to hang around at Die Rosen after leaving school and presumably be supported by Madge, Jem and Dick.

Do you think that's a fair comparison? I'm not sure I do - Jo is a 17 year old minor, who probably wouldn't have been allowed to get a job outside the home even if she wanted to (assuming there was any job she was capable of doing), whereas Margot is a 38 year old mother of five who has lived independently for the last 20 years and is a fully trained nurse (I think?). It's to her credit that she wants to work (maybe working helps her keep busy and not to dwell on her experiences too much?), when I'm sure Jem would have been happy to support her and her children, but I don't think the fact that she chooses to do so should have any bearing on Joey's life choices.

But I digress into Joey-bashing-makes-me-cross-mode.

I like the Venables women very much. Margot is frail-of-body but strong-of-spirit; Daisy is bright, determined and a good friend; and Primula is ... not really very well developed by EBD, unfortunately.

It is a shame that Margot was killed off (IMO) - it would have been interesting to have her continue to be assistant Matron through the series, and have her girls have to cope with the parent-on-the-staff thing. Can you imagine Matron-Mother catching the triumvirate having a midnight feast, say?

For some reason, I have always blithly accepted the transfer of residence of Daisy and Prim from Madge to Joey as perfectly normal. I think it's the fact that Daisy and Rob are such good friends from Exile onwards that really sells it to me. That and the fact that the school just restarts on Guernsey with Daisy in place at Les Rosiers - no discussion, no debate, she's just there and happy to be there. So it all seems quite natural. Prim is the one for whom it should seem odd - Madge is practically her mother, as she is so young when Margot dies, and David is (allegedly) her best friend, so her move to Joey's seems stranger.

But then, as others have said, EBD seems to forget she exists half the time, so her story isn't as coherant as Daisy's in many ways.

#4: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:09 am
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I just meant that Margot seems very independent, unusually so for the CS and for the times in general. I wonder if Jem offered to support her or not - surely he could have afforded to.

#5: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:12 am
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Stephen Venables really stands out in the series for me. He's the only alcoholic in the CS books, and the only time that EBD touched on the issue AFAIK. His and Margot's relationship is also one of the only really complicated couples. They were in love enough at the start to risk everything to run away together and start a new life in Queensland, half a world away from their families. So there is a huge passion there, that is continued through the having of five children fairly close to each other. But then it all goes wrong, life becomes hard and isolated and uncopable-with, and there is the terribly sad slide of Margot's sweetheart into drink and then death. I think that EBD handles the whole story in a very sensitive way; she lays the blame on the circumstances rather than the characters.

I do feel resentful towards Jem for the way he "welcomed" Margot at first - he seems more concerned with a. his reputation and b. giving out to Joey over engaging a sitting room in the hotel, than he is with actually interacting with his long-lost sister. But that is EBD showing us the other side of the coin, ie Jem's own anger and frustration that he's held towards the actions of his sister (and the knock on effect on his parents too) for the last 13 (?) years.

So yes, all very interesting, and one of the more difficult of families that EBD took it upon herself to describe.

#6: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:18 am
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Alison H wrote:

I just meant that Margot seems very independent, unusually so for the CS and for the times in general. I wonder if Jem offered to support her or not - surely he could have afforded to.

Ahh - fair point. I obviously misunderstood.

I think Jem would definitely have offered support - and presumably there was Margot's share of the Russell family inheritance... I'm guessing she was written out of the will after running off with hubby, but Jem would probably feel a moral obligation to share the inheritance with her, even if he didn't have to by law. Assuming he hadn't invested it all in the San, of course. Very Happy

In fact, I suspect that being off his time, Jem as head of the family would have expected to support his widowed sister, and she probably had to fight her corner to be able to go get a job. Her being a proud and independent type, when not worn down by illness and worry....

#7: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:42 am
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Just as another point (sorry for spreeing!), Margot's arrival is about the only time at which we're told anything about Jem's family - the impression given of his parents, in that they cut Margot off when she married an unsuitable man - not atypical of their generation and class but quite harsh all the same - perhaps goes a long way towards explaining some of Jem's less attractive traits.

#8: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:38 am
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Róisín wrote:

I do feel resentful towards Jem for the way he "welcomed" Margot at first - he seems more concerned with a. his reputation and b. giving out to Joey over engaging a sitting room in the hotel, than he is with actually interacting with his long-lost sister. But that is EBD showing us the other side of the coin, ie Jem's own anger and frustration that he's held towards the actions of his sister (and the knock on effect on his parents too) for the last 13 (?) years.

I really thought Jem was grossly unfair to Joey then Evil or Very Mad

. He was horrible and disbelieving when she told him who she had met, and disapproving of how she had handled the situation, which she had done well, with tact and generosity. All right, maybe it was Jem's money she was being generous with, but she can hardly have been expected to have the money herself for hiring hotel rooms!

Sorry, this is slightly OT as it's not about the Venables family, but I think anything I had to say about them has already been covered.

#9: Author: Joyce, Location: Hong Kong

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:48 pm
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She loses three sons, a husband and just as she gets her life back together, the war starts and she dies.

And THEN the prize named after her is renamed. Which frankly I think was a horrible thing for EBD to do. She could have had a Margot Venables prize as well as a Joey Bettany prize.

I wonder how Joey explained the change to Daisy and Primula. I'm guessing more than a simple "sorry" was required.

Cheers,
Joyce

#10: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:12 pm
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And after that, Daisy's achievements in becoming a doctor and a medal winner are subordinated into being praised and noted for having children. Really, apart from '& Co in Tyrol' she gets a very poor share of the attention, when I think she ought to be praised to the skies.

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