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#1: Families: The Russells Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:18 pm
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The Russells consist of parents Madge and Jem, and six children David, Sybil, Josette, Ailie and twins Kevin and Kester. Jem and Madge were also official guardians to Daisy and Primula Venables, Robin Humphries and Juliet Carrick. Unofficial members of their nursery were the Bettany children who they brought up until Mollie and Dick moved back to England.

So what do you think of the Russell family dynamics? Some possible starting points for debate might be:

Jem's authoritarian ways
Madge's juggling of career and family
Sybil's childhood and her accident with Josette, plus her attitude to beauty
the way the Russell children reacted with the Bettany wards
were Kevin and Kester needed in the plot or was Madge just trying to keep up with Joey!

But do bring up anything else you like in relation to the Russell family. Please join in Very Happy

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:49 pm
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I really like Madge and Jem early on, when they take on responsibility for Dick and Mollie's kids and the others: somehow I never find that annoying in the way Joey's collection of children does, probably because there are believable reasons for it. And I like the early nursery scenes when we see all the kids together at Die Rosen.

However, they - especially Madge - seem to undergo some sort of personality transplant later on. Some of the things they do are awful - that letter that Madge sends Joey, asking her to tell David and Sybil about staying in on Canada because she hasn't got time to, and the way they make Sybil and Josette give up their own plans to accompany them to Australia.

I wish we'd seen more of the Russell children: considering that they were the children of "the founder", the girls only really play minor roles at school, and the boys are pretty much ignored (apart from when David's a baby).

It's a shame that Madge pretty much gives up her work with the school, but not unrealistic given the standards of the time and the difficulty of getting between Die Rosen and Briesau in the early days. And I sometimes think that Jem's work is very underrated - he was a leading world figure on what was at the time probably the major threat to world health, and that doesn't really seem to come across as well as it could.

#3: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:14 am
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I also like the early family dynamics, although I would guess that the large number of wards early in their family life put a big strain on them, as they go from keeping an eye on Juliet and the Robin to about ten kids in a few years.

Later, their parenting seems oddly warped in some ways. There's Madge's 'no time to write' from Canada (although she's got lots of time to write to Joey), the spoiling and then shunning of the beautiful Sybil, Daisy's insecurities resulting from the fact that Madge can't show her wards open affection because of Sybil's jealousy, dragging Sybil and Josette to Australia against their wishes and career plans, and the fact that David seems to spend his time anywhere but at home. Plus there's Madge's repeated lamentations about how she wanted one sweet, gentle daughter - it could be regarded as a joke except that Sybil *is* sweet, gentle, patient and very domesticated. Jem seems to become more authoritarian, and Madge becomes less crisp and more submissive, particularly compared to her early days in the series.

Kevin and Kester do seem to be add ons. They're born in Canada, and we get occasional references to them, but Madge always leaves them behind when she visits Switzerland, and ther status changes randomly - at one point they're about to start at the kindergarten, and then they're in Australia, but also back in England.

#4: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:38 am
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I really like the Russells as a family and always thought that Madge got a raw deal by EBD with taking Sybil and Josette to Australia (hence the subject of my very first drabble Madge Fights Back)

I never found Jem particularly authoritarian just that he was so used to being in charge and taking care of people's health he probably did it so automatically cos he had to at work. He certainly comes accross as having a good relationship with the pupils at the CS in Tyrol and to open his home to all the kids he did is pretty impressive.

I would like to know which book it says that Madge can't show open affection with her wards because Sybil would be jealous otherwise because I've read every CS book and have never come accross it and have read that staement from a couple of different people. The Bettany's and Daisy are described as having a soft spot for their Aunty Madge so she must have showed them enough affection. I always wonder how the Russell children coped without their cousins after growing up with them, especially David being the only boy.

I also don't have an issue that Madge asked Joey and Dick to break the news to Sybil and David. I thought in part it was a kindness for them to be told by a sympathetic person who can meet them at where there reaction to the news is and comfort them as needed rather than not having someone there when the read the news in a letter and quite possibly be upset by it. And the woman did just have twins and was probably exhausted.

I always read the whole ladylike daughter comment as an in house family joke. When Madge first started it none of her daughters were ladylike or domesticated though by the end Sybil is very much that way inclined. The first instance I ever read that was in Three Go when the kids paint themselves into Red Indians

#5: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:14 pm
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Fiona Mc wrote:

I never found Jem particularly authoritarian just that he was so used to being in charge and taking care of people's health he probably did it so automatically cos he had to at work. He certainly comes accross as having a good relationship with the pupils at the CS in Tyrol and to open his home to all the kids he did is pretty impressive.

Me either, Fiona. He's an absolute product of his time and his creator - what with EBD's reverence of doctors and all. I actually really like the way he takes care of Madge and Joey - yes, he is in charge at home, and yes, it's somewhat galling to our modern views to see Madge deferring to him, but I get the feeling she likes having someone to look after her for a change, and actually I think they make a good partnership.

Fiona Mc wrote:

I would like to know which book it says that Madge can't show open affection with her wards because Sybil would be jealous otherwise because I've read every CS book and have never come accross it and have read that staement from a couple of different people. The Bettany's and Daisy are described as having a soft spot for their Aunty Madge so she must have showed them enough affection. I always wonder how the Russell children coped without their cousins after growing up with them, especially David being the only boy.

It's in Lavender. Daisy is upset because Jo hasn't asked her and Robin to visit since Stephen's birth (not realising it's because she's dyed herself green) and wonders if Jo has stopped loving them as much as she did. Robin reassures her (and BTW Daisy sounds really hormonal and over-react-y Very Happy

)and then we get:

Quote:

“It's just - it's such a relief to hear you say that,” sniffed Daisy. “It came into my head a few days ago, and I've been thinking about it ever since. If such a thing were to happen, Rob, I don't know what I should do. Jo is so - so special, somehow. Auntie Madge is a darling; but - well, she has her own children, and dozens of other things to think about.”

“So has Jo, if you come to that,” said Robin.

“I know. But the Triplets aren't like Sybil. Sybs hates having cousins so much older than she is living with them. And then she's always been such a picture, and you know what idiots some folk are! When she was at the Sonnalpe the crowds of visitors that used to say - and quite loudly, too, so that she couldn't help hearing! - "Oh, what a lovely child!" Or, "Just look at that exquisite little face!" The only wonder is that she isn't more of a trial than she is. And, of course, she was baby for so long. Josette isn't four till the summer, and Sybs is five years older.”

“I know,” agreed Robin. “There's a lot in what you say. All the same, Sybil can be unbearably rude sometimes, I know. She's got to learn to get over her vanity and her jealousy. But Madge loves you and Prim very dearly, Daisy. And I know she loves me, too.”

“Yes; but because of Sybs, she daren't show it - or not much. I was jolly thankful when it was arranged that Prim and I were to live with Jo. I can't tell you how sorry I've been for Bride and Peggy, many a time. And Jo knows what Sybil is, and told me once that that was one reason why she had us with her.

Fiona Mc wrote:

I also don't have an issue that Madge asked Joey and Dick to break the news to Sybil and David. I thought in part it was a kindness for them to be told by a sympathetic person who can meet them at where there reaction to the news is and comfort them as needed rather than not having someone there when the read the news in a letter and quite possibly be upset by it.

I really agree with this, too. Madge's letter does come across slightly strangely, but right before she says she hasn't time to write to them, she says she is writting to them both on Sunday and they will get her letters very soon. I can't imagine having the news broken to me by letter - that would be awful! - and so thought the concept of Jo / Dick breaking the news gently and then Sybs / David getting a letter from mother a few days later was about right. I wonder if there's a subtext that Madge can't quite bring herself to break the news herself - she must miss her older children dreadfully, after all.

#6: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:57 pm
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Caroline quoted

Quote:

"But Madge loves you and Prim very dearly, Daisy. And I know she loves me, too.”
“Yes; but because of Sybs, she daren't show it - or not much."

It must have been hard with so many children in the house, all the other demands on Madge's time and attention, plus wartime making everything more difficult. I can also understand Sybil being resentful at always having to share her mother with so many others.

But I think allowing an eight year old to dictate how she treated other members of the family shows serious weakness on Madge's part. What happened to Miss Bettany who could always be firm and tough when necessary?

I think one of the problems with Sybil (and some of the other children, Mike Maynard, for example) is that she was kept in the nursery too long. I think she would have grown out of her childish faults quite quickly if she had gone to school at five, had more to think about than her place in the family, and learned to share.

#7: Author: Sarah_K, Location: St Albans

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:35 pm
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Caroline quoted

Quote:

"But Madge loves you and Prim very dearly, Daisy. And I know she loves me, too.”
“Yes; but because of Sybs, she daren't show it - or not much."

Of course that only says that Daisy (and Joey) thought Madge daren't show affection to her wards because of Sybil, not that Madge herself thought that. Sybil does react badly to her cousins at first but I can't help feeling Daisy and Prim spend so little time in Madge's nursery that this is more a case of them being told it than it being an issue. After all the Sybil we see in the books is almost always very aware of how she has to behave once she's stopped being a toddler/very little girl.

#8: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:17 pm
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I think the nursery politics of the Russell's Die Rosen home are fascinating - a mixed brood of wards, cousins and children, ruled over by a combination of Rosli (or is it Marie?), Joey (in holidays) and what sounds like a fairly busy and distant Madge (and an even busier and more distant Jem). Don't forget that Marie's children also formed part of that nursery - in a later book we are told that the Lemesurier (sp?) children were the Russell's earliest playmates. No wonder Sybil felt as if her family nursery was under invasion by non-Russells! Especially once (if) she started to socialise among other children on the Sonnalpe, or read books about other children, and saw how their nurseries operated.

Might be interesting to do a count of what children were in the Russell nursery in its busiest year and compare ages. In what book is it that Sybil challenges Bride as being 'just a cousin' does anyone know? Very Happy

#9: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:45 pm
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Well, by Jo Returns to the Chalet School there is

Joey (18 ), Robin (12), Daisy (8 ), Peggy and Rix (4), Bride (3), David (2), Primula (2), Jackie (2), Sybil (baby), Marie's eldest (2 or 3) - one teenager, two children and eight toddlers. On the adult side, Juliet, Grizel and Ted Humphries all make their home with them, and Madge and Jem are looking after Gillian (16), Joyce (15) and Biddy (12) during the holidays.

So Sybil shares her home with two parents, one Aunt, six cousins, one brother, five under-age non relative who have Die Rosen as a temporary or permanent home, and three non related adults. That's a household of 19 people, all of whom are older than her. Then there's the household staff - Marie, Rosa, Andreas, and a Mamsell.

#10: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:51 pm
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Thank you Jennifer! You are like a chalet-machine Very Happy

Well. All that considered, I too may have kicked up a fuss. Of course Sybil had no right being mean to Bride, but her home must have felt like a drop in hotel sometimes.

#11: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:49 pm
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Yes, Sybil was entitled to have her mother to herself sometimes, even if only for a few minutes each day. It's not as if Madge had no-one else to look after the other children while she took Sybil (and David, together or separately) for a walk or story time or something.

#12: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:08 pm
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How on earth did Rosli cope? Madge seemed to pop in to read the odd story (Exile), Marie seemed to be Housekeeper, Jo didn't do much, so the poor girl who started as David's 'little nurse' really had her hands full. Cheap labour for the Russells.

#13: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:23 pm
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Róisín wrote:

In what book is it that Sybil challenges Bride as being 'just a cousin' does anyone know? Very Happy

It's in Exile:

Quote:

Peggy had unbounded belief in school as a reformer. She herself was a gentle, sweet-tempered little soul, most obliging, and quite motherly with the younger ones — though red-headed Sybil sometimes resented the mothering, having a great opinion of herself as the only daughter of the house. She had been known to madden Rix by chanting, ‘You’re only a cousin! David an’ me belong!’

#14: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:03 pm
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Thanks KB. I mixed up the Bettanys. It's hard to see Sybil as misunderstood from that quote! Laughing

She sounds like a right little madam, happiest when queening it.

#15: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:57 am
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The dynamics of the nursery are really interesting and it's a shame that we don't see more nursery scenes - Rix as the leader, Peggy as the doormat or at least as the one who follows everything Rix says, David following Rix about early on but then becoming more independent and palling up with Primula, Sybil feeling resentful, etc.

IIRC Jackie Bettany was born at Christmas, Marie and Andreas's Gretchen in the January and then Sybil in the March, so all 3 of them are very close in age. Likewise, Primula, Bride and David are also very close in age.

#16: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:13 am
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Róisín wrote:

Well. All that considered, I too may have kicked up a fuss. Of course Sybil had no right being mean to Bride, but her home must have felt like a drop in hotel sometimes.

And yet when I read bits and pieces of the transcript of Lavender, there was something Bride said that the two got along well and were close when Sybil forgot she resented her cousins living with them.
Part of me thinks it started because Rix was so bossy and Sybil was trying to retaliate the only way she knew. I think in Exile there was some argument between the two that Robin tries to sort out and Madge does and thats how the argument had started.

#17: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:40 am
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KB quoted from Exile that Sybil

Quote:

had been known to madden Rix by chanting, ‘You’re only a cousin! David an’ me belong!’

which is fairly mean, but also just the sort of bratty things children do say to each other. In LMM's Anne of Ingelside, the oldest child, Jem, is the only one not born there. Having a bad day, he reflects that

Quote:

Everybody picked on him. Hadn't Nan that very morning said, "You weren't born at Ingleside like the rest of us."

So Sybil's remarks seem par for the course to me - and she says this to Rix, not Peggy - maybe Rix, who seems to be rather a strong character, provoked her somehow.

#18: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:08 am
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I think Sybil's attitude is not that unexpected, given her early life - loads of cousins and wards, all older than her, and some of whom where fairly bossy. Then, the family has the move to Guernsey, which would be pretty traumatic, followed by the birth of a younger sister, who takes even more of her mother's time. Her looks, and nothing else, are what get her special attention from others.

What I find objectionable is Madge and Jem's helplessness in the face of this. A concentrated effort to spend some special time with Sybil as a child so she doesn't feel that she needs to compete, closer monitoring of the nursery dynamics (was she being bossed around and lorded over by Rix and David?), highlighting her non-beauty accomplishments and talents so she feels that she has something other than being pretty and a real daughter to identify herself with, nipping nasty behaviour towards others in the bud for all the kids - if the parenting had been different, Sybil may have turned out very different by age eight or so.

#19: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:44 am
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That has been my contention all along, that Sybil was trying to find a place for herself in an over-crowded nursery, and when she discovered who she really was, she made the most of it.

And it can't have helped that Jo talked about her behind her back, and was so anti-Sybil, and generally negative about the child.

#20: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:03 am
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Jennie wrote

Quote:

And it can't have helped that Jo talked about her behind her back, and was so anti-Sybil, and generally negative about the child.

Yes, that seems like very poor judgment on Jo's part, to tell Daisy something like that. Unless she considered Daisy, who is almost 16 in Lavender as a near adult.

If Daisy was almost 16, Sybil would have been almost 9 (I think) - I suppose a really spiteful 9 year old could upset a 16 year old, but it seems a bit weird. Of course, in that scene where the quote come from, Daisy is in floods because she thinks Joey has rejected her - Sybil is not the immediate source of her tears.

#21: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:58 pm
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I wonder how much Madge was upset by Sybil going missing for the day with Mystic M affected how she an Jem related to Sybil. Added to that Sybil was 6-8 prem and in those days that would have been a big deal. She would have been a 32-34 weeker and babies only learn how to such and swallow at 36 weeks though they can do it earlier they do get extremely tired and can't be feed. In saying that some do tend to survive anyway but it would have had an affect on Jem and Madge and she would have seemed that much more precious as a result.
(The half term was in March and Jem said Sybil was due at the end of April)

#22: Author: Sarah_K, Location: St Albans

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:09 pm
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That's an interesting point Fiona. If Sybil had at first been treated as a very precious child and fussed over and then, as time went on, became just one of the nursery children it would be even less surprising that she would want to claim specialness ("we belong").

#23: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:20 pm
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Madge had to be sedated when Sybil went missing, she was so distraught.

I always felt that EBD decided which girls were going to be portrayed as flawed, and then made them be as nasty and naughty as she could in a school story.

I always found Sybil far more attractive as a character than the Maynard triplets.

#24: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:52 pm
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I can't think that EBD would think through the fact that Sybil was premature. She would have heard that some babies mysteriously arrived early and wanted her to arrive at half-term for plot reasons. Hers was an easy birth compared with David's wasn't it?

#25: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:12 pm
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Ailie was premature - or arrived "earlier than expected" - as well, but nothing was ever said about her being small or anything like that.

#26: Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:16 pm
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I think Ailie was only 2-3 weeks early (so still term) - that said if I'd had a previous prem baby I wouldn't be suprised at going early again (I went at 38 weeks first time and was shocked to get to 41 with the second)

#27: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:56 am
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Fiona Mc wrote:

I wonder how much Madge was upset by Sybil going missing for the day with Mystic M affected how she an Jem related to Sybil. Added to that Sybil was 6-8 prem and in those days that would have been a big deal. She would have been a 32-34 weeker and babies only learn how to such and swallow at 36 weeks though they can do it earlier they do get extremely tired and can't be feed. In saying that some do tend to survive anyway but it would have had an affect on Jem and Madge and she would have seemed that much more precious as a result.
(The half term was in March and Jem said Sybil was due at the end of April)

To be honest, I think that when Sybil was a baby and a very small child, Madge probably pampered her whenever she could - in a house with so many children clamouring for her attention, I imagine that Madge's time was in great demand.

She clearly took a great deal of pride in Sybil's looks and her line in Highland Twins - "Sybil knows she's a daughter of the house." - suggests that on some level, conscious or otherwise, Madge is making a distinction between her own children and her nieces and nephews. It is highly unlikely that the tiny tot that Sybil was at the beginning of Exile would have been able to work out that the fact that Peggy, Rix and the rest were cousins meant that they didn't "belong" as she and David did, not without the idea being planted in her head, either by something that was said by someone else or from her own observations on differences in treatment.

Later, as Caroline quoted, Daisy feels that Madge can't show affection to her, Primula or the other cousins because of Sybil. It is also something that Joey has picked up on, and that she feels strongly enough about that she says so to Daisy. If Madge really did feel that her showing affection to her nieces and nephews was going to upset Sybil, then the solution was not to avoid showing them affection but to make sure that Sybil knew that she was loved, and that no matter how many other children were living in Die Rosen, whether they were siblings, cousins or no blood relation, Madge wasn't going to love Sybil any less. Setting aside time in the day just for her and Sybil, even if it was only for a story before bedtime, would also have helped because, as has been pointed out, her home life was far from normal.

I remember reading that children under two should not be made to share their toys, sweets, etc, with others because at that age, their concept of ownership is set in stone and the idea of sharing is utterly alien to them. It's a concept that has to be introduced very gradually, and that they should be encouraged rather than forced into.

Look at Sybil's case; from birth, she was sharing her parents' attention and affection with her cousins and with the Robin. When she was a toddler, she would probably have gone on visits to Gisela's family, and those of other Old Girls, and been present when they visited Die Rosen and she would have been able to observe that these other tots either had their mummies and daddies to themselves or only had to share them with one or two other children.

By about three or so, she would have grasped the differences between siblings and cousins and she would later have become aware of the fact that under ordinary circumstances, she would only have David and Josette to contend with, not Peggy, Rix, Bride, Jackie, Daisy, Primula or the Robin but at the same time, she would have been too young to be able to empathise with the fact that the latter three had lost their parents and that the other four couldn't be with their parents, she would just have resented the fact that they were usurping her own parents' attention and affection.

I think that a lot of children in Sybil's position would have reacted similarly.

Of course, when Madge finally does decide that Sybil is getting too spoiled, too conceited, etc, her course of action leaves a lot to be desired; she ends up erring in the opposite extreme, coming down on Sybil like a ton of bricks which is pretty much guaranteed to reinforce and increase her resentments.

I think it was in Lavender that Sybil complained that Madge always made a fuss over Robin, who wasn't really part of the family. Sybil was feeling jealous and insecure, perhaps afraid that her mother loved Robin more than her. Madge's reaction? To retort that Robin was part of the family before Sybil was even thought of. If her goal was to confirm Sybil's fears that Robin ranked above her in Madge's heart and in the family and to make her resent her even more, then Madge's response was likely to achieve this. If not, her words were poorly chosen.

#28: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:13 pm
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I think it's very easy to criticise all the characters involved but after all they are only human and they are doing their best. The Russell family dynamics are fascinating and it's a shame we didn't get more of them.

Sybil - she's felt neglected because she had squads of cousins to live with her, plus wards. It's completely natural that she'd feel that way and react badly to her cousins. At the same time I think both Madge and Jem must have been aware of how Sybil was likely to feel and tried to give her some extra attention, which probably led in part to the little princess act. And she always had starngers commenting on her beauty apparently, which wouldn't do any harm to some children (the Robin, for example) but in other cases can be damaging. I think Sybil goes through a phase of being a real brat (in some ways, understandably) but she then reforms. And I think the sweet gentle etc is a family joke.

Joey's attitude to Sybil - In the conversation between Robin and Dasiy we only have Daisy's word for what Joey has said and how the Russell family works. Robin tries to tone down Daisy's comments. Also we don't know how Joey has talked to Daisy about this. For example, she might have said 'it's not very nice for Sybil to have so mant cousins and wards hanging around the place' which Daisy interprets as Sybil being selfish of Madge's love (which she is) and Madge therefore being unable to show affection to Daisy. (There are other reasons why Madge might be afraid to do this - she might worry that Daisy would resent her as trying to replace her mother, whereas for Joey it's more acceptable since she's more of a big sister type.) Joey and Madge discuss Sybil's behaviour - only natural in two close sisters interested in child development. And Joey criticises Sybil because EBD is setting Sybil up as troublesome.

Madge's letter to Joey - IMO it's much nicer to hear that your parents won't be home from a loving aunt/uncle than in a letter (and Madge is going to write herself anyway). Also, I think the scene between Joey and Sybil shows a close and affectionate relationship. Also, Peggy's attitude to Sybil seems only concerned and caring, not resentful.

Sybil and Josette going to Australia - not as bad as it seems IMO. In those days it was acceptable to drag your kids about with you and expect them to put up and shut up. It's a shame that Josette doesn't get to go to St Mildred's but she does get the chance to travel - just as valuable as a finishing school - and there's no suggestion that her career plans be put on hold - she wasn't going to uni for another year anyway. The same goes for Sybil, although in her case she was ready to start her training. But she could easily have left it a year. It's the fifties equivalent of a gap year.

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