The CBB
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Books: Theodora and the Chalet School
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5174
Author:  jennifer [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Books: Theodora and the Chalet School
A synopsis can be found here

Some interesting stuff in here. What do you think of Ted and the way she settles into school, given her background? What about Margot and her 'devil' (plus the eavesdropping, attempted blackmail and other nefarious doings)? Do Mary-Lou and Joey interfere to good effect, or do they make things worse?
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:27 am ]
Post subject: 
It's good to see Len, Ros and Ted forming a trio in this, and good to see Con making friends with Ricki and Odette - shame that that doesn't last. BTW, I don't know why there was such a fuss about the clock, seeing as Emerence could well afford it and her parents had sent her the money specifically for the purpose of buying presents for her friends.

I think Joey did help Ted, but why did Miss Carthew have to write to her in the first place, rather than to Hilda? Why does Joey always have to be involved?!!! And what were she and Rosalie (was it Rosalie?) doing gossiping about Ted? OK, she wasn't to know that Margot was listening, but they shouldn't have been gossiping like that anyway. The bitching about Ted needing to pluck her eyebrows was particularly annoying!

Mary-Lou was also trying to help, but I find it quite worrying that it was left to another pupil - Head Girl or no - to sort out a serious feud between several other girls. I know she told Kathie and Mlle about the problem in confidence, but was it really right for them to let he get so involved in it all? And shouldn't Kathie have noticed that there was a problem in her form in the first place?

The one who comes out of it all worst though, I think, is Jack. His idea of dealing with a difficult situation in which one of his children has behaved very badly and two of his other children are amongst those affected is to refuse "to have anything to do" with Margot for two weeks :shock: . In some ways he's as bad a parent as Ted's mother is.

Edited to correct typo :oops: .
Author:  Emma A [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:59 am ]
Post subject: 
This is actually one of my favourite CS books, partly because I've re-read it more frequently (though in the cut version). I really like Ted, and her growing friendship with Len and Rosamund - you actually feel, by the end of the series, that they are real friends (unlike Prunella or Ricki).

I think Mary-Lou comes over at her most interfering here. Kathy did spot something up with members of her form, but had felt that she couldn't barge in and ask them questions about it - "interfering with the girls' friendships", as I think she calls it. I think Kathy's inexperience shows here - she should have been more confident that she could sort it out herself, and I think it might have helped if they'd not left the situation to fester over the trip, but that she'd demanded to know what was wrong as soon as Mary-Lou came to her with her suspicions. Her comments to Len are completely hypocritical, and - like Joey - she functions as plot commentator, by giving out personal information about Odette and her mother that Odette herself doesn't even know - which really annoys me (even if EBD does have realise a second after she's said it that she shouldn't have done - but more because of how Margot might react than because she's betraying a confidence).

The comments about Ted's appearance are considerably toned down for the pb version - when I read the transcript, they surprised me considerably!

I think it's actually reasonable that May Carthew (as was) would write to Joey about her cousin - Carty wasn't long at the school and I think Joey would have been the natural person to contact, rather than, say, Miss Annersley. Given Joey's involvement in Ted's admission to the school, I think it's natural that she should ask Rosalie how she was settling down, and hence be overheard by Margot. I do quite like the way she persuades Ted to accept the nickname and with it, a new chance - though I think that Miss Annersley could have done the same thing (in a slightly more dignified manner, possibly!). Hilda shows later that she's quite capable of dealing with Ted (the hairdressing, and form remove discussion).

I like the trip to Zermatt, too - and the adventure with the pig is funny.
Author:  JayB [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:25 am ]
Post subject: 
This is one of my favourites of the Swiss books - I like the books that feature the triplets and their friends in their early-mid teens.

I think Margot's jealousy and all the interaction between the Vb girls is realistic. ML's involvement didn't bother me when I read the book as a teenager myself, I took the characters as EBD intended us to. But it does annoy me now.

I think she actually handled Margot quite well - making her see how bad her behaviour really was, getting her to the point where she was willing to own up, and supporting her through it.

But I think she was way out of line in her dealing with the others. Len and Con had done nothing to deserve the ticking off she gave them - and their concerns were about how their parents would react, so that was really none of ML's business in any case.

And I find ML especially out of line with Ted. Ted was assured when she arrived at the CS that she was starting with a clean slate and her past wouldn't be held against her. She is the victim in all that's happened - she hasn't done anything wrong. Then ML drags it all up again.

Quote:
BTW, I don't know why there was such a fuss about the clock


I think the point was that Emerence knew she should have handed that money in to Bank, so she was breaking School rules, and Margot knew, or suspected, that her parents wouldn't allow her to accept such an expensive gift, so she was being deceitful - we see her planning how she's going to smuggle it back to Freudesheim and hide it in her room. If they'd both been honest about it, it probably would have been all right, given that it was Emmy's leaving present to her - she was allowed to keep it in the end, after all.

(By the way, is this the first time we get a hint of Margot's hopes for the future? And is it obvious what Margot is talking about? I think it went over my head, unitl I read the later books where it's made clear.)
Author:  Lesley [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
I like this book a lot though there are any number of things that, away from reading the book, really annoy me. Firstly, why should ex-Miss Carthew write to Joey??? From the letter it is obvious that she's had no contact with the School for years, at least since before New - more likely since she left the CS at the end of Head Girl - at that time Joey was 15, not even a sub-prefect and certainly not someone that appeared to be at all friendly with Miss Carthew. If she had to write to someone surely it should be Madge Russell? She would know Madge and feel able to relate to her. Miss Carthew would have no idea how Joey had turned out or if she could help Ted.

Okay, rant over - of course the reason she wrote to Joey was so Joey could tell the Staff and therefore us her story - it was a plot device - something I can appreciate more the more I write a series. I just wish EBD's were logical!!!!!

Joey's welcome to Ted and change of name are good and it's so nice to see Ted seizing the opportunity. It's also lovely that she, Len and Rosamund are friends. Also love Hilda's spot of hairdressing!

The BIG ROW and it's aftermath - well Margot's behaviour was very nasty, attempted blackmail is serious, though I accept she didn't realise it. But why was it left to Mary Lou to butt in? The Mistresses were aware there were problems, they shouldn't have left it - suppose it had all gone wrong? I also did appreciate how she helped Margot but her comments to Len, Con and Ted were completely unreasonable. Len was hardly interfering as much as Mary Lou herself, Con had purely given her opinion as to the clock and poor Ted had done nothing wrong but had to endure a lecture about how terrible her previous behaviour had been.

I feel Jack's response was very over the top - and continued in the next book when he did something similar to his seven year old son for simly acting like a normal boy. He really needs to control his temper - and appreciate just where Margot gets her one from.
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:45 am ]
Post subject: 
This is definitely one of my favourite books! :D

Ted is a really appealing character, and I think she complements the friendship that Rosamund and Len have really well - all three of them are leaders in their own ways. It's also nice to see more of Ricki and Odette, and to see Con finally opening up to other friendships.

The way Mary-Lou tells off not only Margot, but her sisters and Ted as well, is kind of weird - but it does seem to happen a lot in the series. I wonder if the theory was, "Character X has done something really bad, but we don't want Character Y to feel superior / hold a grudge so we'll remind them of their own faults"? It seems especially unfair that Mary-Lou brings up Ted's past deeds, considering how well she's been behaving at the CS.

Having said that, I don't know that Mary-Lou's interference is so very awful - she's known the triplets for a very long time, and she's worried about what the oncoming storm could mean for Jo, who Mary-Lou herself is very close to. Mary-Lou's wish to avert catastrophe is completely understandable - less understandable, in my opinion, is why the staff let her! But I don't know that she handled it any differently than most staff members would have, and she knew her limits when it came to Margot.

Jack really does come off as awful - he's never learned to control his own temper, and yet he doesn't seem to have any understanding of how hard Margot struggles to control hers. Considering that Jo's temperament is completely different from Margot's, she's the much more understanding parent.
Author:  Emma A [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:11 am ]
Post subject: 
There's mention of Miss Carthew in Gay from China, more as a name mooted to take over some of the teaching after the bus accident, and it's evident that they (Joey and Madge, I think) have heard from her recently, because they cite the reasons why she wouldn't be able to step in. So it's reasonable to infer that Carty corresponded with people from the school for long after she left, and lost touch some time after the end of the war.
Author:  jennifer [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:24 am ]
Post subject: 
I think Mary-Lou's interference is well meant, but it illustrates why handling a matter like this should have been addressed by a staff member rather than a fellow student. She comes across as very heavy handed to Len and Con, who have already been suffering due to Margot's jealousy, and to Ted as well. At this point, Ted has behaved perfectly during her time at the CS, and has been guaranteed a new start - having the head girl chastise her for past misdeeds is not fair, when she's not supposed to even know about it.

Jack's also pretty scary here, and we have more examples of the cosseting of Joey. I can understand not upsetting her when she's very pregnant with a difficult twin pregnancy, but Jack (and Miss Annersley) refuse to even tell her what happened. If I had my husband and the school principal co-operating to hide important information about my child from me to protect we'd quickly have both a new school, and marriage counselling! Between Jack's shunning of Margot, and his even more reprehensible behaviour towards Mike in the next books, he comes across as a pretty frightening man.

I do like Con in this book. It's telling that while Len is concentrating on hiding the dirty laundry from others, and making excuses for her triplet, Con has a much clearer view of the situation, and recognizes that they need outside advice. Len's more focussed on keeping up appearances, while Con is concerned with the actual problem.
Author:  JennieP [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:31 am ]
Post subject: 
I am always appalled byt the fact that the staff abnegate all responsibility for a tricky pastoral sutuation to a 17/18 year old in this book. Ted is known to have a history of problems at schools, and Margot likewise is known to be a difficult character - it's something that I would say even an experienced memeber of staff would have qualms about their ability to resolve. But not even trying to - that's just irresponsible.

And don't get me started on OOAO's arrogance, interferance and lack of self-knowledge. How dare she tell Len that she'll be a bossy interfering woman by the time she's thirty? She's one all ready and she's only a teenager! And as for dragging up all of Ted's past history, who the dickens does she think she is to do that when it's all been set aside as bygones? It's only Joey's carelessness and gossiping that caused anyone to find out, as it is!

Rant over...
Author:  JayB [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 
jennifer wrote:
I do like Con in this book. It's telling that while Len is concentrating on hiding the dirty laundry from others, and making excuses for her triplet, Con has a much clearer view of the situation, and recognizes that they need outside advice. Len's more focussed on keeping up appearances, while Con is concerned with the actual problem.


I'll have more to say on this when we get to Triplets - but it's interesting that while EBD repeatedly tells us that Con is the dreamy one, detached from real life, the least grown up, etc., etc., what she often shows us is that Con is one who sees most clearly, who is able to grow a lot very quickly in the right circumstances. I wonder if EBD herself was aware that she was doing this?
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:56 am ]
Post subject: 
She's inconsistent with Con - she lets her grow up, then seems to want to make her revert to how she was before.

In Theodora and some of the other books, Odette and Ricki are described as being "great friends" of hers, and then in (I think) Althea Joey and Hilda have a conversation about how Con's never had any close friends.

Also, we see in this book how clearly she sees things, and we see her trying to help Odette, and in Problem we see her being the one who realises that Ros is nervous of Mlle ... and then by Two Sams (?) she's been relegated back to being so detached from reality that she's inadvertently responsible for a ski-ing accident .
Author:  Cat C [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have to say I remember being really pleased when I tracked down a (pb) copy of this, since it's one of those books that gets referred to a lot in subsequent books - the whole thing about the clock, and all the trouble Margot gets into. Definitely one of the better Swiss books in terms of plot and character development, and I remember being entertained by one or two of the stunts that Ted pulled at her previous schools - bareback horse-riding for instance :lol:
Author:  JS [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think this was one of the last books I found so probably read it first in my twenties. Like Cat C I was glad to track it down because it cleared up a lot of things from future books.

Ted always seemed okay in the future books but I didn't really like her in her 'own' book, not sure why. The whole discussion over whether to take her and whether she'd been really bad (ie dishonest) or just naughty (therefore redeemable) also annoyed me - it's like the CS only helps 'deserving' cases when often it's the undeserving ones who need more help. And who's to say who is and isn't deserving? (oops, sorry, answer is obviously Joey and Mary-Lou).

Anyway, I'm sure I'd have liked it a lot more had I been ten or more years younger when I first read it!
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've always liked this one, maybe partly because it's one of the only Swiss books that really seems to get to grips with Switzerland enthusiastically. Although Ted, though likeable, sounds more interesting in the abstract - a fascinating maverick loner with an irreparable relationship with her silly mother - than she turns out to be in reality, because she never behaves other than perfectly from the start at the CS.

Lots of things I thought were odd or interesting, though. Joey and Rosalie's remarks about Joan Baker not having become a real CS girl really irk me, especially when Joey outrageously remarks that this is because they've had to deal with 'heredity as well as environment', which is more or less eugenicist - Joan is the way she is because of 'bad' inherited traits, not just because she's had bad examples from her immediate family environment!

And it's clearly no accident that Joan as bad example is brought up at the start of the book, when Joey and Rosalie are discussing whether the CS should accept Ted - they are compared as different 'types'. Rosalie specifically says of Myra's account of her misbehaviour 'I think I’d rather deal with mischief any day than the sort of nonsense that is Joan’s besetting sin.'

The same claim that Ted is not really 'bad' comes up again and again - in Carthy's letter:
I don’t know what Myra may have said in her letter to the school, but she isn’t a bad girl. She’s honest and truthful and she is, thank goodness, free from silliness and the kind of unpleasantness that to me constitutes a really bad girl... In short, she is thoroughly naughty, but she is not bad!

The thing that strikes me is that EBD is vague about the 'kind of unpleasantness' and 'silliness' she associates with the 'really bad girl' - what exactly does she mean here? She's not talking about dishonesty, as Carthy mentions that separately - does she mean Joan Baker-type behaviour/sexual knowingness?

The other thing that drives me crazy in this book is the cosseting of Joey, not because she's having a difficult pregnancy, which would be understandable, but because

She had had quite enough already this year, what with Naomi’s accident last term and the smallpox scare this! Anything to do with Margot would certainly be a worry, so she [Len] must just keep it to herself for the present at any rate.

For heaven's sake - Joey barely knew Naomi, even if she was kind enough to be concerned about her until her aunt arrived! And the smallpox scare was exactly that - a scare! Len was vaccinated immediately and never got ill!

Also, I find it really weird that Margot's entire family and school accept her 'devil' and discuss him as if he's a separate entity - I can understand that when Margot was a small child, but surely it can't be helpful that the staff and headgirl of the CS buy into her original child's excuse that her bad behaviour wasn't really her fault, but that of a 'bad' other person... But given Jack's behaviour after he discovers her behaviour to Ted, and Joey's apparent bafflement before it, and everyone's continual discussion of her badness, Margot's nightmare about standing in the desert with her entire family looking at her with reproach becomes understandable...

Oh, and two questions - what exactly would the 'sunsuits' the school lounges about in on one of the hot days have been? And when Joey says 'My goodness! My coffee!' we're told she's misquoting a coffee ad - what was the ad?
Author:  Maeve [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sunglass said:
Quote:
Oh, and two questions - what exactly would the 'sunsuits' the school lounges about in on one of the hot days have been? And when Joey says 'My goodness! My coffee!' we're told she's misquoting a coffee ad - what was the ad?


I've always wondered about the sunsuits too :) Does anyone know?

I thought the "My goodness! My coffee!" was a play on the "My goodness! My Guinness!" ads. Which I think Dorothy L. Sayers had a hand in -- is that right?
Author:  delrima [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  sunsuits
adult style http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?li ... d=12040566

kiddies http://www.thefind.com/apparel/info-red-sunsuit

http://www.antiquemystique.com/pages/3710_jpg.htm

and a selection as I seem to remember them....

http://www.sewingpalette.com/clothing/sunsuits.html
Author:  jennifer [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Alison H wrote:

Also, we see in this book how clearly she sees things, and we see her trying to help Odette, and in Problem we see her being the one who realises that Ros is nervous of Mlle ... and then by Two Sams (?) she's been relegated back to being so detached from reality that she's inadvertently responsible for a ski-ing accident .


I can actually see that - Con's very perceptive when she is paying attention, and has always been so (down to winning one of Tom's dollhouses as a child). But when she's pre-occupied with something, she doesn't pay attention, and doesn't notice anything.

The problem is that it's the latter tendency she's known for. Her perceptiveness seems to be totally discounted by her friends and family.

It's interesting that Len is always described as her mother's daughter, in spite of the fact that adolescent Joey and adolescent Len are practically polar opposites.

Joey: somewhat immature, emotionally uncontrolled, impulsive, tactless, academically erratic, only works hard at things she likes and is good at, untidy and bad at domestic tasks, very creative, extremely gregarious, loves being the centre of attention, charming, hates responsibility, tends to clash with other strong personalities.

Len: mature, extremely responsible and overly conscientious, well behaved, emotionally even tempered and controlled, bright and a hard, steady worker, a natural leader, gets on well with everyone but had a few close friends, a natural mentor, rather quiet, good at domestic tasks, mindful of what she says.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:07 am ]
Post subject: 
I wonder what Len would have been like if she hadn't been the eldest, or if she'd been the eldest by several years, and had just a couple of younger siblings, so that her natural personality had more opportunity to emerge and she wasn't so burdened with responsibility.

I think Len is driven by a need to please the adults around her. Margot and even Con put their own needs and wishes first at times, which isn't always a good thing, as EBD shows. But Len rarely puts her own needs first and on the rare occasions when she does (over the prefectship, for example) she's not allowed to have her way, and that's not a good thing either.

ML said she'd end up an interfering old maid. I think if she's not careful she'll end up being the family doormat, who'll drop everything and come running whenever anyone else calls, because she's never learned that it's all right to say 'No' sometimes.
Author:  Cat C [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Another reading of Len is that she's one of these people born with an extra 'duty' gene - and genuinely enjoys giving service - same sort of reason people volunteer with St John Ambulance, run Guide companies, become union reps, and in some cases join the Armed services.

I daresay at times she'd be in danger of getting put upon, and getting fed up with it, but she'd probably find that preferable to seeing things left undone.
Author:  Maeve [ Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:29 am ]
Post subject: 
About the sunsuits which the girls wear, delrima wrote:
Quote:
adult style http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?li ... d=12040566

kiddies http://www.thefind.com/apparel/info-red-sunsuit

http://www.antiquemystique.com/pages/3710_jpg.htm

and a selection as I seem to remember them....

http://www.sewingpalette.com/clothing/sunsuits.html


Thanks for these. I'm assuming they all wore something like the first one -- the others look a bit too juvenile :roll:

I like Mary Lou at the beginning of this book when she partners Ted on the ramble -- she comes across as very kind and friendly. Her remarks to the triplets during the "showdown" incident toward the end of the book do come across as a bit much, but as Nightwing said, she's known the triplets for quite a long time. Both inside and outside school -- in fact, outside school she's a pseudo-relation to them and has often lived nearby, so I can see that she may feel herself like an older sister to them -- and they, correspondingly, may have felt the freedom -- although we don't see this :) -- to roll their eyes at parts of her comments and just ignore them.

I like this book pretty well, especially compared to the rest of the Swiss books. And always especially liked how being in quarantine for 3 weeks or whatever it was, miraculously made Ted almost fluent in French and German. If only that could happen to me! :)
Author:  Abi [ Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
I really like this book, possibly because it was one of the first I read. I like Ted and I like the way Joey helps her at the beginning (though I agree Miss Annersley could have done the same thing perfectly well).

I don't think Mary-Lou is so much to blame as the staff - after all, she's always been encouraged to interfere and tell people what's good for them and the staff did more or less give her permission to do her worst. Also, she's still a child, really. At least, she's not fully mature emotionally. I think she did the best she could, but it was ridiculous of the staff to allow her to deal with such a situation. They should have listened to her report and dealt with it themselves. No one could expect a girl of eighteen (or is she seventeen?) to be able to sort it out herself, with practically no support and no guidance at all.

(Love the sunsuits, by the way!).
Author:  MJKB [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I liked this book alot and thought that the characters were well drawn. However, Margot's jealousy seemed to come out of nowhere. Len had always been pretty friendly with Ros Lilly from the latter's first appearance at the school and she didn't seem to mind. How was Ted's friendship a greater threat?
ML certainly suffers from a distinct lack of self-awareness. Is it possible that EBD did not see the huge irony of ML's warning to Len? As for Jack, who EBD appears to regard as the perfect father, what an appalling way to treat a vulnerable teenage girl.
All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/