The CBB :: View topic - Families: The Next Generation

It seems odd to me that EBD, an independent woman who'd had two successful careers, nevertheless seemed to think that marriage and babies was the ultimate ambition for all women.

Perhaps EBD was writing some wish-fulfillment.

I have met women in their thirties and forties who've deeply regretted - and in some cases, bitterly resented - the fact that they never married. Successful careers they may have had, but it wasn't what they wanted ...

And I do think Peggy and Giles are a good match - they share a certain priggishness. I just hope they don't gang up on Polly and Lala in an attempt to improve them.

Isn't the prime contender for Beth's husband a Willoughby/Atherton? I can't remember which though.

Once a woman gets married she instantly quits her job, of course!

I can't remember for the life of me who Beth Chester marries, but the beginning of 'Barbara' always annoys me - the bit where Miss Dene (an apparently happy single woman), wonders why Beth isn't married yet because she is so 'choice' looking - 'What can the men be thinking?' This seems fairly retrograde, and puts Beth (who did to go Oxford, and clearly has had some ambition in the past, at least) back in the traditional box of pretty passive object to be selected for marriage by someone else.

But this is still a view held today, if not about marriage, at least about the ease of finding a boyfriend/partner. During my far-too-long years of being hopelessly single, I had that sort of comment more than once: "But you're pretty, it can't be hard for you to find a boyfriend!" As if that was all there was to it!

Does anyone at the CS ever turn a marriage proposal down, or - other than Joey with Dr Hunter, and that was off-stage - discourage any male attention :lol:

Does Gwensi Howell become a successful author, or have I dreamt that?

Stacie Benson becomes a successful academic, although she also then ends up teaching at the school. And of course there's Tom Gay - Tom is great

Even today, we are not far from those beginnings of feminism, and people will still ask a single woman whether she does not want to marry and have children.

Sophie Hamel seems to be doomed to hang around not doing very much, which is a shame because she's so nice

Alison H wrote:

Stacie Benson becomes a successful academic, .

Was Stacie just temporarily there?

(I wish someone would enlighten me as to how to highlight someone else's words)

I have to say that I've always found the extreme interest of the entire school in old girl marriages and babies (and who the babies look like and what their names are) a bit weird. I can understand the staff being interested, but a bunch of fourteen-year-olds?

On the issue of giving up work, the person who really annoys me is Daisy Venebles. One minute she's a paediatrician and the next she has to wait for Laurie when help is needed. What happened to all that training? did it just evaporate!!

kirstyb01 wrote:

As a nurse it's amazing how much of your skill (and confidence) you lose when you're not using it. My guess is it would be the same for a doctor. Daisy has been out of it for at least 4-5 years so probably as either forgotten a lot or lacks the confidence in her medical skills

kirstyb01 wrote:

I know that you have to maintain a registration with the GMC to practise medicine now - was there any such requirement then? Might Daisy not have been licenced to practise medicine at that time? Or would that even have been an issue in an emergency situation?

Author:	jennifer [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:08 am ]
Post subject:	Families: The Next Generation
The various marriages and engagements in the younger generation - Peggy and Giles, Bride and Simon, Josette and Sybil and their Australian husbands, Julie Lucy and Nancy Chester and their husbands, Beth and Noel?, Primula and Nick, Verity and Alan, any others I've forgotten... We don't see much of these relationships on screen, but get occasional mentions of engagements, marriages and kids. What do you think of the any of these relationships? Did Peggy and Giles deserve each other? Is Verity properly taken care of? Did Josette and Sybil marry to get away from their mothers? Who did Beth marry, anyways? [Len and Reg and Daisy and Laurie are discussed separately]

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:06 am ]
Post subject:
I can well imagine Peggy marrying "the boy next door" (or near enough!) - she always seemed like someone who would marry early, and in a quiet area with possibly not much social life it would always've been likely that she'd've married the son of family friends. Even if Giles was a pain! I do feel that EBD seems to go through phases of just marrying people off for the sake of it, though. Especially when the engagements occur in "pairs" - Peggy and Bride get engaged within a few months of each other, and so do Sybil and Josette. OK, most of the CS Old Girls would have been expected to marry at some point, Joey and co would've been expected to mention when close relatives got engaged, and she couldn't've kept all the Old Girls in the main storylines, but the announcements just occur in no particular context - and we never get any mention of Bride, Primula or Josette's weddings actually taking place.

Author:	JayB [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:20 am ]
Post subject:
I think the occasional mention of an Old Girl's engagement, marriage and babies is fine. What annoys me somewhat is that EBD seems to marry off virtually every girl who's played a significant role in the series within a few years of her leaving school, even if it goes entirely against the life the girl has planned for herself while at school. It doesn't seem possible in CS land for a woman to be a happily single career woman - unless, of course, she is a mistress at the CS. (Eustacia, who has a successful academic career, is said to be lonely and in poor health when she reappears in Challenge.) Peggy I think was always likely to marry early because she was fairly domesticated and had no particular plans after leaving school, even before Mollie's illness. Bride, on the other hand, was clever, seemed far more adventurous than Peggy, and did have career plans, so I was sorry that virtually the last we hear of her is that she's engaged. Julie and Nancy, Sybil and Josette, all worked hard in pursuit of longstanding ambitions, then suddenly gave it all up in favour of marriage. Sybil and Josette's fates seem more like punishments than rewards, Sybil's especially. It seems odd to me that EBD, an independent woman who'd had two successful careers, nevertheless seemed to think that marriage and babies was the ultimate ambition for all women.

Author:	Travellers Joy [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:13 am ]
Post subject:
JayB wrote: It seems odd to me that EBD, an independent woman who'd had two successful careers, nevertheless seemed to think that marriage and babies was the ultimate ambition for all women. Perhaps she regretted never having married and having the family life. I have met women in their thirties and forties who've deeply regretted - and in some cases, bitterly resented - the fact that they never married. Successful careers they may have had, but it wasn't what they wanted ... Perhaps EBD was writing some wish-fulfillment.

Author:	JayB [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:05 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: Perhaps EBD was writing some wish-fulfillment. Oh yes, I'm sure there's an element of that. It just irks me slightly that EBD seems to round off so many CS girls' stories with the equivalent of 'and they married and lived happily every after' when she knew (as her writing shows) that marriage doesn't necessarily equal 'happy ever after', and that that it isn't the only way to achieve happiness. I just wish she'd allowed some girls to pursue the careers they worked so hard for. I feel especially resentful on Sybil's behalf. But I'll get off my soapbox now. I did like the description of Peggy's wedding, incidentally, the first among the younger generation. A typical family wedding, by the sound of it, with everyone sitting around eating the leftovers afterwards.

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Author:	Sunflower [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:34 am ]
Post subject:
Mary Lou went on to have a career, she is the only one I can think of, but she was a very major charater. (I would quote the comments above if I knew how)

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:46 am ]
Post subject:
That always pleases me! No doubt EBD planned to fix Mary-Lou up with Rix, David or some other nice doctor at some point in the future, but I'm so glad that she allowed her to go ahead with her plans to become an archaeologist, and also that she didn't marry her off at a very early age - especially given that Len was paired up with a doctor before even leaving school.

Author:	Emma A [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:19 am ]
Post subject:
I've always liked the idea that Sybil and Josette married Australians to spite their mother - as in Jennie's drabbles, for example! We never hear, do we, what their names are, apart from one is in the Navy - that would have been a lonely life for Josette - married to a chap who would be away for much of the time, and in a country to where she had only recently moved. I do agree that EBD was writing conventional happy endings for a lot of the girls, perhaps because she couldn't remember what she had originally planned for them. It was probably too much bother for her to keep up with their activities outside marriage, and easier just to say that they were married. Tom's work with her boys' club is one of the few that is, mainly through her letters arriving with each house for the Sale. I've always been rather annoyed by EBD's treatment of Stacie - yes, she did get the DLitt, and is successful with her book on Aeschylus, but as JayB wrote, is not allowed to be happy, contented, and fulfilled outside the confines of the Chalet School, and happily returns to teaching there. For anyone who has taught at a first-rate educational establishment (and I assume Stacie had taught at Oxford - perhaps erroneously), coming down to teach children would have been quite a shock for her. Which book contains the description of Peggy's wedding?

Author:	Caroline [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:33 am ]
Post subject:
Ruey Richardson, I think. I'm in full agreement with the "nice happy endings" thing - I think one of the strengths of the Chalet series as a whole is the connectedness of it all - we hear about old girls, their daughters come to the school, there is a real sense of history and community surrounding it. But when we get to the marriages of the second generation, the cast list is too big and the school is too isolated on the Platz for EBD to introduce potential husbands for all the old girls she would like to marry off. Hence the rather production line nature of it. And even in the early days, Joey's contemporaries married either (a) a doctor from the San or (b) the brother of a friend or (c) an old family friend.... So, yes, EBD gave her characters nice conventional (for the time) happy endings. Noting wrong with that in my book....

Author:	jennifer [ Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:10 am ]
Post subject:
I think that in the early books, we saw more of the married former students or mistresses. Gisel, Bernhilda, Wanda, Simone, Marie, and the like were living near the school, and stopping by for visits. With the next generation, it's mainly a case of "Julie is engaged" "Julie has a son and daughter" with no context. I do like the idea that Josette and Sybil married to get free of their mother. It is a sort of karmic justice when Madge is regretting the fact that her daughters are marrying so far away from home, when if she hadn't insisted on dragging them their they would either have met someone in England, or still happily be studying. And I do think Peggy and Giles are a good match - they share a certain priggishness. I just hope they don't gang up on Polly and Lala in an attempt to improve them.

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:
Travellers Joy wrote: I have met women in their thirties and forties who've deeply regretted - and in some cases, bitterly resented - the fact that they never married. Successful careers they may have had, but it wasn't what they wanted ... That seems a little early to me to give up on all ambition, matrimonial or other! I agree with other people that the later books set up what amounts to an Old Girl marriage production line. I always find it rather depressing, both because, along with the increasingly silly or repetitive plots of the later Swiss books, it suggests EBD's imagination is running out, and also that she's not pushing ahead with the more feminist and modern implications of the CS series - that single women can lead happy and fulfilled lives and have meaningful careers. Hilda Annersley and Nell Wilson, and Sally Denny, Rosalie Dene, and Matey etc etc - where are their younger equivalents, other than Mary-Lou, whose singleness is interesting, because it's so unusual? I mean, I can think of large numbers of old girls we don't hear about after they leave school, and whom we could presume to be happily unmarried, but my point is that their doings are not reported around the CS. Marriage trumps career for EBD, it seems. Presumably, statistically, it's far less less likely by the end of the series that young women would marry very young, only a few years out of school - is EBD simply behind the times, or is she consciously being conservative and essentially keeping her school in an earlier era? I have to say that I've always found the extreme interest of the entire school in old girl marriages and babies (and who the babies look like and what their names are) a bit weird. I can understand the staff being interested, but a bunch of fourteen-year-olds? I can't remember for the life of me who Beth Chester marries, but the beginning of 'Barbara' always annoys me - the bit where Miss Dene (an apparently happy single woman), wonders why Beth isn't married yet because she is so 'choice' looking - 'What can the men be thinking?' This seems fairly retrograde, and puts Beth (who did to go Oxford, and clearly has had some ambition in the past, at least) back in the traditional box of pretty passive object to be selected for marriage by someone else. Or is there a suggestion of an unwritten subplot - was Beth disappointed in love at home, and is withdrawing to Joey's nursery to lick her wounds? But I remain absolutely delighted that the smug Peggy and Giles marry - talk about deserving one another....

Author:	Róisín [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:
Isn't the prime contender for Beth's husband a Willoughby/Atherton? I can't remember which though.

Author:	Liz K [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:
jennifer wrote: And I do think Peggy and Giles are a good match - they share a certain priggishness. I just hope they don't gang up on Polly and Lala in an attempt to improve them. There's GOT to be a story there..............

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:
Róisín wrote: Isn't the prime contender for Beth's husband a Willoughby/Atherton? I can't remember which though. I think he's generally assumed to be Noel Atherton. Seems to be one of those areas where EBD assumed we knew whom she meant and forgot that she hadn't actually told us .

Author:	Pat [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:
I think some of the fixation with giving her characters happy marriages is due to the fact that so many of her generation couldn't marry because there literally weren't enough men to go around. Too many had died in WW1, and there were a lot of spinsters who had to earn a living for themselves when they normally wouldn't expect to have to. For that generation marriage was something to dream about.

Author:	Loryat [ Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:
I think, considering that in CS time the series never goes beyond the fifties, it is fairly believable that most of the girls with career plans end up getting married. It is a shame though that we didn't see more who weren't CS teachers but still had a happy career. IIRC Stacie doesn't go back to the CS to teach. She does teach when there are staff shortages but it's only to help out; isn't she mainly supposed to be doing her own work but in a healthier atmosphere? I think it's a shame Josette and Sybil didn't pursue their various careers but I think Madge is judged a bit too harshly. They have the valuable and (then) unusual experience of travelling to Australia and there's nothing to stop them from taking up their training the next year (if they hadn't decided to get married to two random Australians, the dopes). It's a bit hard on Josette not getting to go to Millie's, but after all going to Australia is just as exciting an experience. The Maynard triplets aren't allowed to go to St Mildred's either - was EBD dropping the finishing school idea, do you think?

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Marraiges
I think marriage to EBD was the apotheosis of a woman's life. She may have dreamed about a husband and 'long family' for herself but was stuck looking after her mother, a role which would have been regarded as the duty of a single woman in those days. In 'Erica', Joey makes explicit the point that neither she nor Jack would expect Len, as the eldest daughter, to give up her life to the care of the family if she, Joey, were to die in the train crash. Mind you, I could not understand why poor Julie Lucy's engagement to a prep school master meant her having to give up on a career in the law! And she was deleriously happy about it too! A different age I suppose.

Author:	Loryat [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:
Once a woman gets married she instantly quits her job, of course! Actually in Sex and the City there is a scene where Carrie et al are all looking at the marriage announcements and one of them (Miranda probably) remarks on how all the woman have quit their high flying, well paid jobs to get married. And after Charlotte marries Trey, she quits her job (then regrets it later on). And that's now!

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:
Loryat wrote: Once a woman gets married she instantly quits her job, of course! Very often, you had to - many, many professions had what was called a "marriage bar", which meant that married women were not allowed to hold a post. This lasted well into the 1950s, and many women who married in those years have never worked outside the home since. My mother has only followed her profession as an architect where it was needed to help my father.

Author:	Hannah-Lou [ Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Sunglass wrote: I can't remember for the life of me who Beth Chester marries, but the beginning of 'Barbara' always annoys me - the bit where Miss Dene (an apparently happy single woman), wonders why Beth isn't married yet because she is so 'choice' looking - 'What can the men be thinking?' This seems fairly retrograde, and puts Beth (who did to go Oxford, and clearly has had some ambition in the past, at least) back in the traditional box of pretty passive object to be selected for marriage by someone else. But this is still a view held today, if not about marriage, at least about the ease of finding a boyfriend/partner. During my far-too-long years of being hopelessly single, I had that sort of comment more than once: "But you're pretty, it can't be hard for you to find a boyfriend!" As if that was all there was to it!

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Hannah-Lou wrote: But this is still a view held today, if not about marriage, at least about the ease of finding a boyfriend/partner. During my far-too-long years of being hopelessly single, I had that sort of comment more than once: "But you're pretty, it can't be hard for you to find a boyfriend!" As if that was all there was to it! The difference for me is in precisely what you just said. People commenting on your looks (which must have been maddening) were at least assuming you were the one doing the looking/ were actively involved in choosing a partner. What irks me about what Rosalie Dene says about Beth Chester is that she seems to assume it's entirely a matter of a man doing the choosing, based on her beauty, rather as though she's a particularly splendid item in a shop window - rather than Beth herself wanting to marry someone. (For all Rosalie knows, Beth has turned down a dozen proposals from men she didn't like!) And yes, I realise R's is very much an attitude of its time, but it feels odd coming from an apparently happy single professional woman who lives in a community of other single professional woman - does Rosalie/EBD not think Beth should be allowed to make the same life choice as Rosalie (who is pretty, we are often told) herself? Or are we to assume that she and Hilda Annersley, Nell Wilson, Matey, Sarah Denny, Kathie Ferrars, Mademoiselle Berne etc etc would all have married if they were asked by a socially-suitable man...? And if this is the case, why did no one propose to them? I sometimes find it amusing that EBD, while she never allows a single character to express a wish for marriage (quite often they say the opposite!), she does sometimes have someone like Joey say something like Simone 'was too sweet to be a teacher all her life'. So marriage is best, but no single woman is supposed to know that, or, if she does, is allowed to say so...?

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
Does anyone at the CS ever turn a marriage proposal down, or - other than Joey with Dr Hunter, and that was off-stage - discourage any male attention ?

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
Alison H wrote: Does anyone at the CS ever turn a marriage proposal down, or - other than Joey with Dr Hunter, and that was off-stage - discourage any male attention ? Madge and that 'common little man' who offers her and Joey gooseberries on a train journey and subsequently writes to propose (in School At?)? But as he is presented as a completely unsuitable joke candidate, who hasn't the savoir vivre to realise he's not supposed to talk about 'ow 'ot the weather is to ladies to whom he hasn't been introduced, far less propose to someone several social rungs above him, I don't suppose he counts, poor man. He's just an excuse to show how charming Madge can be to the humbly born.

Author:	jennifer [ Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
I was reading some EJO recently, and did notice a big difference in the way courtship and marriage were written about. In EBD, the formula is nice man (probably doctor) meets CS woman. Four chapters later, they announce their engagement. As pointed out, there are very, very few cases of someone with an unsuitable suitor, or parents who don't approve (other than Margot Venables, who certainly pays for it). We rarely see much of the courtship process. In EJO the initial attraction is often just as quick, but we see a lot more indecision, where the woman isn't sure about her feelings and needs time to think, or parents who don't approve, or women pursued by men whom they aren't interested in even though they aren't terrible people, or crushes that don't lead anywhere. There are even a few cases of women who worry over giving up their career, or having to leave their own home. Plus there is more of the courtship process in the stories.

Author:	Catherine [ Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
Much of the news about marriages, kids etc. came from Joey who had received letters from family and friends and it's only natural that she would pass it on to those who remembered the girl in question. Also, in the newsletters, EBD often updated her readers on the activities of a particular character, mentioning that she'd received letters asking about that character. 'Marrying them off' and then reporting on it in her next book would also have been a convenient way of answering the questions that many of her fans wanted to know. She probably received a lot of letters from fans wanting to know what their favourite characters had been doing since they left school.

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
I'm just trying to think how many characters there are whom we hear about after they've left (i.e. several years later, as opposed to a few years later) who are doing anything other than being wives-and-mothers (or widows ) or teaching at the school. Robin is one, obviously. Margia Stevens is another. Sophie Hamel seems to be doomed to hang around not doing very much, which is a shame because she's so nice (I think EBD didn't give her much of a life because she was overweight, but that may just be me taking things personally ). Does Gwensi Howell become a successful author, or have I dreamt that? Stacie Benson becomes a successful academic, although she also then ends up teaching at the school. And of course there's Tom Gay - Tom is great .

Author:	JB [ Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
Quote: Does Gwensi Howell become a successful author, or have I dreamt that? Not sure. She has a book accepted in one of the fill-ins when she's still at school. In Oberland and Problem, she's living with her brother Ernest and I don't think there's a mention of a career.

Author:	jennifer [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Hannah-Lou wrote: But this is still a view held today, if not about marriage, at least about the ease of finding a boyfriend/partner. During my far-too-long years of being hopelessly single, I had that sort of comment more than once: "But you're pretty, it can't be hard for you to find a boyfriend!" As if that was all there was to it! And it assumes that you are interested in the men who are going to ask you out solely because you are pretty, rather than ones who are actually interested in your mind and personality.

Author:	keren [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
I think that maybe EBD was ambivalent about what women should do. We have to remember that she was definitely a product of her times and could not be expected to think differently. The person who said maybe she was sorry she did not get married herself could well be right. She lived through both world wars where many men were killed and consequently there was a shortage of husbands, so women who did not get married, had to be satisifed with fulfilling their selves at work, but I do not think we can make her be a progressive as we want her to be. Ultimately she saw women as homemakers, and though she had to encourage the girl readers to get a career, and show that a career could be fuliflling, ultimately in EBDs world, one had to get married and have a family. Even today, we are not far from those beginnings of feminism, and people will still ask a single woman whether she does not want to marry and have children.

Author:	Jennie [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
As late as 1985, my brother-in-law asked me, in a way that assumed that I would agree with him, if I wouldn't rather be a stay-at -home, than out slaving away at the chalk-face. I leave it to you to imagine what I said to him.

Author:	Róisín [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
Alison H wrote: Stacie Benson becomes a successful academic, although she also then ends up teaching at the school. And of course there's Tom Gay - Tom is great . Was Stacie just temporarily there? Also, it seems from your list that EBD was very career-woman-motivated, as long as it was a career within religion...

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
keren wrote: Even today, we are not far from those beginnings of feminism, and people will still ask a single woman whether she does not want to marry and have children. When people say to me "Why don't you have a boyfriend?" I've started launching into huge rants about their limited hetero-normative outlooks, at which point they decide never to ask me anything on the subject again, ever. Of course, it would be nice if they just never asked in the first place... Alison H wrote: Sophie Hamel seems to be doomed to hang around not doing very much, which is a shame because she's so nice I agree! It seems in the last few books where she's mentioned that she's still helping her father run his business - maybe she ends up taking over from him?

Author:	Miriam [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
Róisín wrote: Alison H wrote: Stacie Benson becomes a successful academic, . Was Stacie just temporarily there? Initially she was, but there are a few references to her teaching later on, and she seems to have become a semi-permanent institution. Shee seems to hsve taught a few classes (probably fifth and sixth forms) when ever she was at Freudesheim, and when she was off lecturing somewhere Some one else must have covered those classes. She may also have done exam coaching. Teacing geography and maths was only temporary; once the staff emergency was over she stuck to her own subjects.

Author:	kirstyb01 [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Families: The Next Generation
On the issue of giving up work, the person who really annoys me is Daisy Venebles. One minute she's a paediatrician and the next she has to wait for Laurie when help is needed. What happened to all that training? did it just evaporate!!