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#1: Families: The Mensches Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:26 am
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Let's talk about the Mensches as a family, and their particular way of living, their sibling dynamics and their role as a family in the series as a whole.

First, some description and research. There is a Mensch/Marani/Von Eschenau family tree laid out here and the names are entirely clickable. The original Mensch family are natives of Innsbruck and consist of Father Stefan, Mother Gretchen, Gottfried, Bernhilda and Frieda. They are Austrian and Catholic. Herr and Frau Mensch raised their children on strictly traditional lines. The three children are each known to be quiet and obedient. After school, both Bernhilda and Frieda return home to help there. Gottfried marries Bernhilda's schoolfriend, Gisela, and starts the second Mensch generation. Bernhilda marries very soon after school, to her schoolfriend's brother, Kurt von Eschenau. Frieda waits just a smidge longer and eventually becomes engaged to her Dr. von Ahlen, a doctor at the San.

They are a musical family - Herr Mensch plays the flute, Gottfried plays piano and sings, Bernhilda plays violin and piano and Frieda plays piano and harp. The Mensches had a number of aunts and uncles: a bishop on the Mensch side, their mother's younger sister Luise, an Aunt Anna and an Uncle Paul and a grandmother who lived with the family. Herr Mensch was the youngest of his family, his older sister Natalie had died as a child.

So, how do they figure in EBD's world? Were they a prototype 'traditional' family, or a prototype for something else? How do they compare to the other 'founding families' of the CS world, ie the Maranis, the von Eschenaus, the Bettanys themselves? Do you think that the Mensch parents were too strict in their way of bringing up their children? Were Bernhilda and Frieda merely shy, or really colourless? Did anyone have a crush on Gottfried...

Please join in, and bring in your own issues to do with the Mensches as you like Very Happy

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:19 pm
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I think that they're meant to be a traditional family (or how EBD envisaged a traditional middle-class Austrian family to be) - the father is kindly but very much the dominant male head of the household, the mother is very motherly (that sounds silly but you know what I mean!) but also insists on good behaviour, and the grandmother is quite regal but also tells stories about her youth. It's lovely when we see them all together during that lovely Christmas in Innsbruck, because neither the Bettanys nor Robin have that sort of family any more and Joey doesn't even remember her parents. They're lovely people generally, e.g. offering to look after people who have nowhere to go during the holidays and to make cakes for Madge's birthday.

They are very much contrasted with what the Bettanys are used to (because of their nationality?) - Joey curtseys to Frau Mensch senior and is amused by Bernhilda and Frieda's reverent attitude towards Gottfried, and submits to wearing a pinafore which she wouldn't do normally, whilst Madge is quite surprised by how little time poor Gertlieb gets off. They're obviously very strict, but this is presented as being quite a good thing. I find that a bit weird sometimes, e.g. when Grizel is upset at being forced to study something she doesn't like by her father and some of the Austrian girls are shocked that she's daring even to think that what he says may not be best for her.

Frieda is very shy, but I think that that's just her personality, not that her spirit was crushed by a strict upbringing. Bernhilda is much less shy, and although Gottfried doesn't say much when we first meet him he's quite a hero in Exile.

I'm in full waffle flow here, so may as well keep going Laughing

! I feel that we know the Mensches much better than the Maranis or the von Eschenaus, probably because we don't see much of the others at home.

It does really annoy me the way Herr Mensch gets EBDd later on, though - in Problem we're told that he's recently died, but then Joey & co go to visit him in Coming of Age!

#3: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:21 pm
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I always feel sorry for Tant Luise, who seems to have no purpose in life other than to look after Die Grossmutter - who isn't even her own mother - and chaperone the girls here and there.

And I do wonder how big that flat was. That Christmas there were:
Herr & Frau
Die Grossmutter
Tant Luise
Gottfried
Bernhilda & Frieda
Madge, Jo and Robin
Gertlieb

Even if Tant Luise shared with Die Grossmutter or the girls while the Bettanys were there, or Gottfried slept on the sofa, that's still six bedrooms.

#4: Author: LizzieC, Location: Canterbury, UK

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:51 pm
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JayB wrote:

And I do wonder how big that flat was.

I've always imagined the flat being an entire floor of a fairly large (wide and deep) building.

I really like the Mensches. The men-folk seem to be very down to earth and full of common-sense (as are the women of the family in fact). I always think it a great pity that after that first Christmas (and especially after the move from the Tyrol) we see very little more of them as a family unit.

#5: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:52 pm
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It sounds more like they had the entire floor of a building. *nods in agreement*

Poor Tante Luise. Am I right in thinking that she was in her forties and that there is no hint of her marrying? If so, maybe this is where Joey got her maiden aunt idea from. I wonder are there any drabbles that sort her out Laughing

#6: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:42 pm
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Doesn't Joey mentions having a maiden aunt called Mary somewhere, or was that someone else? Maybe I'm getting confused: in School At we're told that the Bettanys' only living relatives are 2 aunts who are both married with large families.

I wonder why they never seemed to see the said aunts or their "large families" after the first few books, or why Jem never seemed to see any of his relations other than Margot and her children ... maybe there was something mysterious about them all ...

I meant to say before that I love hearing about Grossmutter and I always get upset when I re-read Eustacia and Grossmutter dies on Bernie and Kurt's wedding day Crying or Very sad

. With the Bettanys losing their parents young, Jem's parents presumably also dying before the series starts and very little mention of Jack's parents, we don't see much about the role of grandparents in families, except with Frau Mensch snr, Mrs Trelawney snr, Mrs Cochrane snr and a few very brief mentions of other people such as Prunella's grandmother.

#7: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:57 pm
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Here comes a very unenlightened question - I always thought Tante was the French for aunt - is it the same in German or is this an EBDism? Embarassed

#8: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:10 pm
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'Die Tante' ( 2 syllables) is indeed German for 'the aunt.' Tante Rosa, for example, was one in our family (even though she was technically a first cousin three times removed).

#9: Author: Cath V-P, Location: Newcastle NSW

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:44 am
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I always think that EBD used the Mensches to give her readers an idea of what life might be like for an Austrian girl - we see a lot of their domestic existence (I love the reference to the 'inevitable sofa with its little table') and it is quite detailed. And I think their flat did occupy an entire floor - according to the Austrian mother of one of my daughter's friends, that was and is a very usual arrangement in the town.

#10: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:12 am
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I can vouch for that - my friends live in the suburbs of a German provincial city and have that kind of flat, and there are many similar privately built low rise blocks on their street. It seems a common way of living in towns and cities over there.

In their case, the ground floor flat is occupied by the man who built the block (and his extended family - parents in law, children etc.), my friends have the first floor and the top floor is rented by another family. These are not flats as we would know them (urban, many to a floor flats), more like what you get when you divide a very large house into its different floors.

Bernhilda and Kurt end up living in the Fourth Floor flat, right? With Ma and Pa Mensch on the Third Floor? Considering people of that class would expect to have live in servent(s), I can imagine the flats were indeed spacious.

#11: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:59 am
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And they were wealthy enough to rent (?) a chalet at the Tiernsee for the summer.

#12: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:25 pm
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Caroline wrote:

I can vouch for that - my friends live in the suburbs of a German provincial city and have that kind of flat, and there are many similar privately built low rise blocks on their street. It seems a common way of living in towns and cities over there.

In their case, the ground floor flat is occupied by the man who built the block (and his extended family - parents in law, children etc.), my friends have the first floor and the top floor is rented by another family. These are not flats as we would know them (urban, many to a floor flats), more like what you get when you divide a very large house into its different floors.

So sort of like stacking four houses on top of each other. Would the flat have a shared garden in the back, or some place where they could go outside?

#13: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:39 pm
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In my friends case, each flat has a quite spacious balcony large enough for pot plants, table and chairs etc. The owner on the ground floor has main use of the garden, as he has filled it with veg and chickens and so on! I think in other blocks on their street, the gardens are more communal - maybe where the owner doesn't live there too.

These blocks face directly on to the street, BTW, and all the gardens are out of sight behind the buildings. Essentially, you have to go through the building to reach the garden. It's like there's a whole other private world back there, out of sight and sound of the street.

I always find it very strange compared to the UK with all our front gardens on show and houses set back from the street - well, in the suburbs, anyway.

#14: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:35 pm
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My German friend lived in a similar house. It was set in the side of a hill, so the ground floor was actually the first floor, if you looked at it from the garden. The 'basement' was a flat where her grandmother lived, the ground floor was basically a one bedroom flat (where her parents lived) and the top floor had four rooms, which my friend had as her own floor - bedroom, bathroom, study and spare room. If she were to turn the spare room into a kitchen it would have been another self-contained flat.

Her parents were also quite traditional, and even though this was only about five years ago, I found that she (like the Mensch girls) was a lot more willing to obey her parents than I was to obey mine. They kept a lot of the customs, such as a traditional breakfast every morning with rolls, jam, ham and cheese (even sliced tomatoes on one occasion!), coffee and fruit juice. Consequently when I read the descriptions of that Christmas it doesn't seem that foreign to me - kind of nostalgic though.

I really like the Mensches - they seem to be a solid, loving family with plenty of time for each other.

#15: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:17 pm
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As many German cities contain apartment blocks, land that would otherwise be unused (next to railway tracks, rivers, etc) is often split up into small blocks that are either allocated to apartments or rented to individuals who use them to grow vegetables, fruit or flowers. Those who can't afford an apartment may be found living in the small (unlit, unheated) huts on these blocks of land with no electricity and no running water. Not the way I'd want to spend my winter!! Shocked

#16: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:18 am
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I think that they were intended to be EBD's ideal, traditional Tyrolese family, and to embody the warmth and generosity of the Tyrolese people. It was also supposed, I think, to show that extended families such as the Mensches are always ready to welcome others especially ats uch tiomes as Christmas.

#17: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:41 am
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I always think of them (though probably without reason) as the 'country' family, whereas the von Eschenaus are the 'aristocratic' family and the Maranis are the 'city' family. That doesn't make much sense though, as the Mensches are from, and live in, a city just the same as the Maranis do. But there is something more streetwise about Gisela and Maria - I don't think their family is as big on traditional values.

#18: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:10 pm
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I'm not so sure about that - certainly Herr Marani was stricter on instant obedience than Herr Mensch (who could sometimes be coaxed).

ETA: We're also told that Herr Marani has an intense love for his country, which suggests to me that he would think the traditions were important.

#19: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:21 pm
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LizB wrote:

ETA: We're also told that Herr Marani has an intense love for his country, which suggests to me that he would think the traditions were important.

Especially as his country was (at the time EBD was writing) only a shadow of its former self.... my plot bunnies have bitten hard on this one, but we're all going to have to wait until I get back from holiday!

#20: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:31 pm
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Mrs Redboots wrote:

I was never sure what EBD made of the break-up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire ... the von Rothenfels family, who are obviously Austrian nobility, have ended up living in Hungary rather than Austria, and she mentions Joey and Madge going to the South Tyrol (I think in School At) without ever mentioning the bad feeling between Austria and Italy over Tyrol being divided.

*Stops waffling.*

Like the sound of this forthcoming drabble Very Happy

#21: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:48 pm
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Alison H wrote:

She probably thought, quite rightly, that those for and about whom she was writing were too young to have really hauled in what had happened - Marie and Frieda would only have been about six, if that, in 1918.

It hadn't honestly struck me how awful it must have been for the likes of Herr Rittmeister von Eschenau and "Onkel Riesen" until I read Mary Jane Staples' latest, where she does discuss it.

#22: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:06 pm
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I really like the mensches as a family and Frieda is one of my favourite characters. One of my favourite scenes involving her is when Grizel comes accorss her in Headgirl and finds Cornelia and Frieda having a battle royal and she nearly sends Frieda to Matey cos she thought Frieda must be unwell to be arguing with someone. She was also one of the most diplomatic person in the entire series without seeming to be too perfect and I loved Bernhilda in the earlier books. She was just lovely with everyone.

(Am also looking forward to Mrs Redboots story Laughing

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