Girls: The Expelled Girls
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#1: Girls: The Expelled Girls Author: RóisínLocation: Ireland PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:26 am
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This is an easy list to make for once - Thekla, Betty and Vera were the only expelled girls in the series.

So - did they merit expulsion? How did EBD portray the whole phenomenon of being Expelled - it wasn't a punishment she took lightly so is it possible to see the boundary that these girls crossed? Could these girls have benefitted from being dealt with in a different way? Were their later rehabilitations convincing?

On the other hand - were there any girls that really deserved expulsion, but didn't receive it?

Please join in the discussion below Very Happy

#2:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:42 am
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Betty's expulsion is probably unique in school stories in that what she did was actually treasonable Shocked rather than just being a breach of school rules. I don't think they had much choice with her, but it's a difficult one to judge because it is so unusual within the genre.

Vera may have nearly caused an international diplomatic incident Laughing , but I'm not sure that either she or Thekla deserved to be expelled: they could have been given another chance. And there was no way that Joyce, given her family circumstances, would have been expelled: I thought it was very inappropriate to say the least to tell Thekla that she could have murdered Mrs Linton Shocked .

The attitude in the books is very much the British School Story attitude that dishonesty and not playing the game are the worse sins that pupils can commit, and it can be a difficult one to get your head round. Thekla's behaviour in trying to put the blame for her misdeeds on Joyce and trying to come between Joyce and Joey, and Vera's lies, are punished far more severely than Margot and Deira's actions in which, although they resulted from blind flashes of temper, Betty and Grizel could have been killed or seriously injured.

IMO the one who really deserved to be expelled and wasn't was Margot Maynard. What she tried to do to Ted was far worse than anything either Thekla or Vera did - and, having been given another chance, she followed it up with chucking a bookend at Betty. Had she not been Joey's daughter I'm quite sure she'd have been out on her ear.

#3:  Author: JoyceLocation: Hong Kong PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:08 pm
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I would have expelled Margot for the Ted incident. If Thekla's main crime was that she deliberately set out to hurt another girl, then so did Margot. The only reason Margot was not expelled was because she was sorry.

Well, I'm not sure she showed it by her behaviour afterwards. And she certainly should have lost her games prefectship over the Evelyn incident. All she had to do was tell Joey and sympathetic comments that she had a tough life! I'm not really a Margot fan as you can tell.

The Chalet staff are pretty long suffering. In Thekla's final confrontation with the staff, Mdlle did want to give her a final chance but only when she showed she was beyond repentance did they let her go.

Diana is borderline. I think she was too old to change and would probably have reverted back to her old ways eventually if she had stayed at the CS. But I think Miss Annersley's reasoning for not expelling Diana were sound - she didn't want Marian to face the same fate and she wanted to give Diana a chance to improve.

And WHY was Marian so scared when Diana threatened to tell the staff about her stealing sweets? It had happened at another school for heaven's sake, so technically none of the CS's business.

And all she had to do was deny it. Only the two girls knew and Diana was not exactly known for her truthfulness. Maybe she thought she would crack under Miss Annersley's steely gaze.

Cheers,
Joyce

#4:  Author: JennieLocation: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:20 pm
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I would certainly have expelled Margot for the blackmail incident, but they let her stay because she was a Maynard. Then the bookend incident showed that she ought to be somewhere else, certainly not in school, and to allow her to continue as Games Prefect after the hockey practice was certainly favouritism of the highest order.

I agree with expelling Betty, what she did was very, very wrong, especially in wartime, but I have my doubt about Thekla. Knowing the sort of family she came from, longer int he school might have helped her.

#5:  Author: Laura VLocation: Merseyside PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:08 pm
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sorry to sound stupid, but who is Vera that got expelled? I don't ever recall reading about her

#6:  Author: LizzieCLocation: Canterbury, UK PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:43 pm
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Laura V wrote:
sorry to sound stupid, but who is Vera that got expelled? I don't ever recall reading about her


ISTR it was in Rivals, she was a Saint who didn't believe the Chalet girls that Elisaveta had been a pupil at the Chalet so she wrote to her (and possibly the King) to say they were talking in overly familiar terms about her. She was caught by Miss Browne who found the draft copies in a forbidden book in her desk while looking for something else.

#7:  Author: PatLocation: Doncaster PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:59 pm
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They were essentially poison-pen letters. she wasn't sorry that she'd written them, only sorry that she was found out. Vera merited expulsion.
For Thekla too, it was the lack of remorse that tipped the scales, and that is why Margot was spared. she was genuinely remorsful, but even then I think she should have at least beensent home for a while, both for the Ted incident and for the book-end one.

#8:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:00 pm
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In deciding whether to keep Thekla, the authorities had to take into account the fact that she had been shown to be a bad influence over some, and she upset others with her attitudes. Would it be fair to the other girls to keep her in the hope that she might improve? Girls such as Frieda and Sophie, who had suffered from Thekla's rudeness, deserved to be considered.

If Thekla had been younger, maybe she could have stayed. But one thing all the expellees, and Diana, have in common, is that they are fully old enough to know that what they are doing is wrong, and of an age when they're not ging to be reformed in the space of a term.

I think Betty's case is particularly well done, as it develops over several books. We first see her in the Tyrol as just another naughty Middle. Then she becomes more annoying and her tricks are in poor taste, rather than being just mischief. Then her falling out with Elizabeth, then her final downfall.

By the end the school had little choice but to have her removed. But she had been at the school quite a long time, whereas Thekla and Diana were older when they arrived. Arguably the school should have taken steps to reform Betty before matters reached that point. Was there anything they could or should have done?

#9:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 am
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With Thekla and Vera it's definitely the lack of remorse that gets them kicked out. In Thekla's case she's also had two terms of very bad behaviour behind her - insulting other girls, lack of self control, and a nasty temper, which at age 16 is a lot harder to deal with than for a junior middle.

Deira is a borderline case - I think she should have lost her prefectship, even with remorse. As a prefect, she insults the head girl at a meeting (Grizel had been less than tactful, but was behaving well within head-girl duties) and then burned property belonging to the headgirl in revenge without showing any remorse. At that point, I would have removed her from her duties. The snowball/rock incident was blind rage, and very similar to Margot's bookend incident.

For Margot she has a history of naught/lazy behaviour, but has shown some improvements as she gets older. The near drowning at Lake Lucerne was just middle's mischief gone wrong. The tobboganning incident was *almost* giving into temptation - she did pull back at the end. For the incident with the Games, I actually feel kind of sorry for her. She's just behaving like Margot - impatient, not good with people, and quick tempered. The staff knew she was like this, but made her games prefect anyways, which of all the prefect jobs probably involves the most interaction with younger students. She shouldn't have been given the job, not because of bad behaviour, but because it was so unsuited to her temperament.

The two inexcusable things Margot does are the blackmailing and the bookend. The second is worth, again, losing her prefectship for. She's what, 17 at the time, and comes close to killing another girl merely because she's in a really bad mood. The first is even worse - she deliberately sets out to destroy her sister's friendship by blackmailing another student with information she obtained by eavesdropping. I'm not sure I would have expelled her for it - let's face it, the expulsion of a Maynard would have been a *huge* deal for all concerned, and more like being excommunicated or disowned that sent to another school. I would have suspended her - either sending her home, or, given Joey's state at that point, an in school suspension for the rest of the term. If the girl has descended to that level of behaviour, she needs more than a sharp talking too and some display of remorse to turn her around.

#10:  Author: Fiona McLocation: Bendigo, Australia PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:27 am
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Although I can understand the reason for expelling Betty I can't understand why they didn't do something about her behaviour earlier. Granted she didn't have a home but when it came right down to it they managed to produce an alternative when they had to. Perhaps doing that earlier could have reformed her earlier and saved her from turning out the way she did. Its one era of books that is sadly depleted and I wish EBD developed it more.

In regards to Margot, I always found the Ted thing to be kind of a bolt from the blue, because up until that point Margot had always come accross as being like any other normal naughty middle, but then she suddenly (as far as I could see) turns into someone more nasty. Again she is allowed to reform after that (and can someone explain why she was made Form Second Prefect the very next term after blackmailing Ted) and does appear to do a very creditable job and then EBD seems to lapse and think must have a bad girl so Margot has to lose her temper and nearly kill Betty and be a poor coach while being a Games Prefect. To me it doesn't ring completely true because Con for the first time since Daniel bit the lions is dreamy on the job in the Two Sam's. Its almost like any reformation is suddenly gone out the window.

#11:  Author: JustJenLocation: waiting for spring training PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:51 pm
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I always thought that Betty had a raw deal in someways. Her parents died and she was packed off to school atthe age of five. My mom's freinds lived in India and Mr.Irons(?) didn't care about her.
It must of been hell for her growing up and knowing that no one really cared for her. Does anyone know where she went during her holidays etc? I can't picture Mr.Irons taking her in and if he did have her during the holidays, iy must have been downright unpleasaant to say the least.

Diane should have been expelled. Even Mrs. Annersley did't want her at the school due to her influence over the younger girls and had no plans on letting her got to St.Mildreds. She wreck Bride's study and was downright rude to the prefects and blackmailed another student as well.

Marion--maybe not expell her but letting her parents know that she was not welcome back to the Chalet School

Margot on the other hand should have been expelled. Her behavior in Ted was unexcuseble. Blackmailing another student? And throwing the bookend at Betty because she was a bad day (or was it a toothache?)

#12:  Author: miss_maeveLocation: Buckinghamshire, UK PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:18 pm
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It was toothache.

#13:  Author: CarysLocation: London PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:04 pm
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I wonder how Betty's parents reacted when they found out their daughter had been knocked out and that the girl who did it had not been expelled. I really hope GGBP publish Triplets soon as I've never read it and the whole bookend scene intrigues me greatly!

#14:  Author: JoyceLocation: Hong Kong PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:14 am
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I actually have been so perpetually outraged about Betty's parents not being told that their daughter was hurt that I wrote a story about it. (Sorry -plugging my stuff here Smile )

I think at any other school Margot would have been expelled, or at least her parents would have been quietly asked to remove her.

Cheers,
Joyce

#15:  Author: CarysLocation: London PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:49 am
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Is the story on the board Joyce? I'd love to read it! Very Happy
I'm in shock that Betty's parents weren't told, what was Miss Annersley thinking of!

#16:  Author: Travellers JoyLocation: Middle of Nowhere PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:12 am
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I, too, was surprised that Margot wasn't expelled, but then I was also surpised that the villain in Carnation wasn't either. Did EBD perhaps not favour expulsion but used it in her stories when it suited her plot? (And obviously it wouldn't have suited to have Margot expelled!)

#17:  Author: JoyceLocation: Hong Kong PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:55 pm
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The story is called "A devil to conquer" and can be found in St Agnes House.

I really want to write a story about Betty and Margot's first conversation after Margot's attempt to kill the other girl.

I am torn between having a massive reconcilation/forgiveness scene or have Betty hold Margot's guilt against her the rest of their school days.

Cheers,
Joyce

#18:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:41 am
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On this same topic, what about Joy Bird? She pushes Lavender into the snowdrift, in much the same way as Margot threw the bookend, and never admits to it.

#19:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:23 am
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KB wrote:
On this same topic, what about Joy Bird? She pushes Lavender into the snowdrift, in much the same way as Margot threw the bookend, and never admits to it.


I don't see that as quite as bad. They are in the middle of a snowball fight - already an active, violent pastime, and and Joy had just had her face thoroughly washed, and then got hit by a snowball from Lavender, whom she shoved in a a quick fit of rage. Being shoved during a snowball fight isn't generally a really dangerous thing, nor is falling in a snow bank. Joy is fourteen at the time.

Margot was sixteen. She was sitting in a quiet classroom.,Len came to ask how she was doing, Margot started yelling and Betty came in to tell her shut up before she disturbed the younger students, at which point Margot picked up a heavy object and threw it at Betty's head, also in a fit of rage. Throwing a sharp, heavy object at someone's head *is* a dangerous activity at the best of times, and it wasn't in the middle of a sports game, or something where people are already in a sort of violent mood.


The other person threatened with expulsion is Val Pertwee after being kidnapped. Any opinions on that one?

#20:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:08 am
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Quote:
The other person threatened with expulsion is Val Pertwee after being kidnapped. Any opinions on that one?


It's a while since I've read it. Was it a serious threat, or was Miss Annersley trying to make Val understand how irresponsible she'd been and how much trouble and worry she'd caused?

(Wasn't it Val Gardiner? I always get those two mixed up.)

#21:  Author: JustJenLocation: waiting for spring training PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:41 pm
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It was Val Gardiner. or however you spell her last name Wink

#22:  Author: JoyceLocation: Hong Kong PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:09 am
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It was Val Gardiner. It's in Redheads. Short sumary - Val is mistaken for Copper and gets kidnapped.

She gets in bad temper and runs away from the school to see her brother who is recoving at the San, thus giving the kidnappers their chance to grab her.

In the conversation she has with Miss Annersley, she brings up the fact that Val has been a bit of a problem throughout her time there and running away and getting kidnapped was the final straw.

I don't think she would actually have been expelled. Miss Annersley was obviously using it as a wake up call.

Cheers,
Joyce

#23:  Author: Fiona McLocation: Bendigo, Australia PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 pm
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Actually I could see Val being expelled. I've just read Feud in Fifth Remove by EBD where a girl is expelled more or less for having 2-3 Head Reports a term for a couple of terms in a row. One of the prefects warn 2 girls in particular that is they continue with their bad behaviour they would get expelled and one stopped and the other continued. If Val had continued then I could understand why Miss Annersley would expel her. You could argue the same about Joan Baker except she's only had one bad term and does pull up amazingly well after that so can understand why she was given a chance.

I wonder why Jack wasn't given her behaviour in Jane. She had shown continual bad behaviour all the way through and wasn't honourable at all. I wonder if thats why she wasn't reported for her fight with Jane because Nancy and Kathie thought she may be expelled as a result especially after already having a number of Head Reports over her school career. She did at least pull up after that term but never really stood up for people being bullied by others (aka Sam in the Two Sam's)

#24:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:12 pm
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Sorry for going a bit OT but are Val Gardiner and Jocelyn Marvell the only people who run off in the Swiss books (unless you count Jack & co taking a short cut on their walk and getting lost, or people going over to Freudesheim)? In the Tyrol books someone always seems to be "breaking bounds" - Simone to cut her hair, Grizel to climb the Tiernjoch and again to visit Schaffhausen, Joey to go to the ice carnival/rescue assorted people, Elisaveta when Cosimo tricks her, Stacie to try to go back to England, Robin and Cornelia to go to the salt caves - but it seems to be very rare on the Gornetz Platz. Maybe there just wasn't anywhere to go Laughing !

#25:  Author: macyroseLocation: Great White North (Canada) PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:17 am
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Joan runs away from the Rosleinalp in Problem and she gets as far as Basle before she's discovered..

#26:  Author: tiffinataLocation: melbourne, australia PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:56 am
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Why was suspension never used a s a disciplinary tool?

#27:  Author: Fiona McLocation: Bendigo, Australia PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:59 am
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tiffinata wrote:
Why was suspension never used a s a disciplinary tool?


But how can you in a boarding school? The whole point of suspension is they aren't allowed at school. The best they can do is putting someone in solitary which they do. Diana is in solitary after wrecking Bride's study

#28:  Author: JoyceLocation: Hong Kong PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:21 am
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Isn't Margot put in solitary at times? And she could technically have gone home.

I would have expelled Jack for her bullying behaviour. What she says and does to Jane is really nasty and indicative of a malicious nature.

Re: suspension. I guess out of sheer practicality they couldn't keep suspending girls - they would either need to arrange escorts home or the parents would have to go out to Switzerland. And travel was not as easy and plentiful then as now.

Cheers,
Joyce

#29:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:23 pm
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Some girls really didn't have anywhere else to go if they were expelled or suspended - Joyce Linton, Biddy O'Ryan, Lavender Leigh, Carola Johnstone, for example.

It would have been very difficult to expel Val, with her brother in the San, since the School always made such a point of being available to the families of San patients.

#30:  Author: JackiePLocation: Kingston upon Hull PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 pm
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I agree that Suspension as a punishment/disciplining tool would be tricky, due to the nature of a boarding school. But they definitely do use girls being left alone, it's used for Annis to some extent in Island, and with Jennifer Penrose to a greater extent in Wrong...

JackieP

#31:  Author: JustJenLocation: waiting for spring training PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:36 pm
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Jack Lambert should have been expelled after.
Jennifer Penrose...I forgot about her. Hmmm...yes should have been expelled. She smuggled forbidden books into school and locked poor Blossom in the art room.

#32:  Author: LollyLocation: Back in London PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:40 pm
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and didn't Blossom then get in trouble for believing her and going into the art room? I always thought that was a bit unfair

#33:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:49 pm
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So did I! If someone gives you a message from a teacher you don't really tend to assume that it's a lie, do you Rolling Eyes ?

And Jane Carew got told off for being bullied by Jack Lambert Shocked .

#34:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:54 pm
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And Samantha was told off for believing Con and whoever else it was when she was given the OK to take the difficult ski run, when so much is made of the authority of the prefects at the CS.

It would have served Miss A. right if after that every time a prefect told her to do something, Samantha said 'Sorry, I must check with a mistress first to see if its all right for me to do that.'

#35:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:44 am
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Or in Three Go where there's a draconian punishment for spluttering in shock at Verity's refusal to speak German.

I hadn't thought of the suspension-boarding school problems, so an in school suspension would make the most sense - a student can attend the mandatory classes, but eats alone, gets no special activities or extras, sleeps in the San, and gets a book to read or mending to do during evening entertainments.

I went to a public day school, and typical punishments were detention, being sent to the principal's office, being kicked out of class and having to sit in the hall, having to sit in the corner, cancelling of special activities like field trips, writing lines, suspension and expulsion.

Of the events in the CS books, Betty and the bookend and Diana's destruction of Bride's study would be the most likely candidates for expulsion (I'm ignoring treason), due to the seriousness of the injury and the unprovokedness of the attack in the first case, and the maliciousness of the premeditated vandalism in the second. Bullying and extortion weren't considered that serious, and writing a poison pen letter on your own time would be out of the school's jurisdiction.

#36:  Author: Miss DiLocation: Newcastle, NSW PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:00 am
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In Sharon Creech's Bloomability (set in a Swiss boarding school) a student is suspended and his (or her, can't remember the details) parents have to fly him home for the period of suspension. I guess this much flying wasn't practical in Chalet School Land before flying became affordable.

#37:  Author: tiffinataLocation: melbourne, australia PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:27 am
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Miss Di wrote:
In Sharon Creech's Bloomability (set in a Swiss boarding school) a student is suspended and his (or her, can't remember the details) parents have to fly him home for the period of suspension. I guess this much flying wasn't practical in Chalet School Land before flying became affordable.


But can you imagine how the parents would react if they had to spend $$$$$ and bring their darling daughter home.
What a punishment that would be.

#38:  Author: LesleyLocation: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:20 am
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I think that, more than anything, might bring home to the parents at least just how seriously the school viewed the bad behaviour.



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