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#1: The Chalet School Triplets Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:26 am
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Now we have a book focussing on the triplets, who are now sixteen.

Margot is finally starting to reform her behavior and schoolwork. However, she loses her temper with a toothache and brains Betty with a bookend.

Con sleepwalks after nearly getting lost in a blizzard, and later fills in at the St Mildred's pantomime.

Len is overly remorseful when Jack and Co run off into the woods and get lost because Len wasn't able to take Jack on an errand, then she is nearly arrested for shoplifting on the halfterm trip.

Mary-Lou's mother is very ill, and Joey goes out to help her bring Doris to the Platz. The triplets are pulled out of school to watch the younger children while she's gone, and have to deal with a madwoman who kidnaps Cecil.

----

So what do y'all think of this one? Should Margot have been expelled for the episode with the bookend? Was EBD getting too sensational with a kidnapping and a false arrest in the same book? What do you think of the triplets attitude towards Doris Trelawny's illness (i.e., it's for the best, because Mary-Lou will be able to pursue her career after her mother dies). How do the triplets stand up as central characters?

#2: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:08 am
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This is one of my favourite books in the series, but it's also a very different book to most of the rest of the series. It *isn't* so much one book as a series of very loosely connected episodes. I mean, can you think of another book in the series that begins quite so vaguely as the opening of this one? Almost all the other books in the series start in such a way that you know WHERE you are in the school year, but with this one, I've never been entirely sure just how far into the term they actually are when the book opens!

With that said, the disconnected nature of the book does make it very easy to dip into because almost each chapter is its own complete story - which is possibly one of the reasons I like it!

It's also one of the books that suffers very, very badly from the cuts inflicted on the paperbacks. There is so much more in the hb (particularly on the subject of Margot and the bookend) that you just have to sit back and go "What the hell were Armada thinking when they cut this stuff?"

So...to the questions:
Should Margot have been expelled? I don't think so. There wasn't an intent to actually hurt Betty (this isn't like Thekla, who INTENDED Joyce to be expelled and possibly kill Joyce's mother; it's also not like Betty who probably didin't think her actions through, but intended them all the same) - which, before everyone dogpiles me!, isn't to say what she did was anything other than unacceptable. The whole incident comes off a lot better in the hb, with Miss Annersley making it very, very clear that this is Margot's absolute final chance, but with that said, I do think Margot does get off quite lightly - she should have faced a more serious consequence than a trip to the dentist after a weep and a sleep on the head's sofa!

Was EBD getting too sensational? Actually, to my mind, the most sensational aspect was probably Margot and the bookend! The shoplifting incident comes off as plausible, particularly given that Len HAD been hanging around in one spot for quite a while and was probably looking quite nervous which is something that would look rather suspcious. As for Cecil's kidnap and the Triplets' subsequent rescue, I tend to think that's actually one of EBD's better pieces of action, and certainly a lot better than the escapades in Princess (which just never rang true to me at all). It's not necessarily all that plausible, but it does strike me that I could have done much the same thing as the Triplets do, were I in that position so...

The Triplets' attitude towards Doris Trelawny: I can sympathise, to an extent. There's no question that, never mind Mary-Lou, it was going to be fastly better for Doris if her struggle came to an end. She'd been ill more or less since Mary-Lou joined the school and one after another, she'd lost her husband, her mother-in-law and then her second husband. I think her decline (and then death in Reunion) was a release for her. And I think it was a release for Mary-Lou too. I think I can see what Len was getting at, when she said it meant she could go forward with her career; it's not that the career would take her mother's place, it's more that ML would be able to move forward without feeling any kind of guilt over "Well if I go to X, what happens to mother?" Had Doris lived for several years more, I can actually see ML developing a similar kind of bitterness as Grizel in being stuck doing something she doesn't necessarily want. I can also see Doris developing quite a lot of guilt for holding ML back.

And wow, that was a ramble that probably didn't even come close to answering the question...

How do the triplets stand up as main characters? I think they actually stand up quite well, particularly Con, for whom this is the first real chance to shine. I love the way she handles the pantomime and the fact that twice she gets to be the brave triplet - she's the one who goes on ahead to get help when she and Len get stuck with the novice skier and then she's the one who has to actually rescue Cecil from the mad woman's bedroom. The only pity of it is that after this, Con tends to slide back into the background again.

Ray *still too much blood in her caffeine stream*

#3: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:18 pm
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I haven't read this one for a while, but I'll do my best...

Should Margot have been expelled for the episode with the bookend?
Actually, I think that she should have been expelled. I know she didn't mean it, but she was clearly, obviously, a danger to others, and on that ground alone I think a responsible head should have felt an obligation to expel her. Or at least quietly asked her to leave. I haven't read Bride for about 20 years, and never really understood the Thekla incident (why did she get Joyce out of bed in the first place?), so I can't compare to the other expulsions, but didn't the head say to Thekla that she was a danger to others (mentally) so she'd have to ask her to leave?

Was EBD getting too sensational with a kidnapping and a false arrest in the same book?
The false arrest I can relate to (something similar happened to me once!); the only thing that annoyed me about it was the way Len and whichever mistress it was (Miss Ferrars? No, someone else... can't remember!) seemed to be able to just say, "Look, we're posh English people, we're here with the wonderful school and connected to the wonderful san," and suddenly the man thought they couldn't do anything wrong, and couldn't possibly be involved in shoplifting. I don't know if that's an accurate reflection of attitudes then, but it really annoys me. So arrogant!
The kidnapping never rang true for me. I'm not sure why not. Unlike some other comments on the board, I don't have a problem with Elizaveta's kidnap, but this one? Hmm. Perhaps it's because I was a LOT older when I read this book! I do think Jack was a bit dismissive of the triplets concerns after they met the woman on their walk though. I seem to remember he was more bothered about his dinner being late!

What do you think of the triplets attitude towards Doris Trelawny's illness (i.e., it's for the best, because Mary-Lou will be able to pursue her career after her mother dies).
I think it's unlikely that a 16 year old would think that it was for the best that one of their friends mother's died (and presumably she was a friend of the triplets too, since they were neighbours for a few years, though they don't seem to have much personal sadness at the news). Even if they did think that, I don't think they'd say it out loud. Wouldn't it be one of those thoughts that you have and then you think, "Oh, that's really bad, I shouldn't think that, better not let anyone know." Or maybe it's just that I'm not religious. Maybe they have such a strong belief in heaven that they really do see death as a blessing, and also a strong belief and confidence that no-one will misunderstand them for saying so.

How do the triplets stand up as central characters?
Very well, I think. It's nice to see the bond between them. This is the book where Margot is invited to Australia, isn't it, and the others back her up? And they all work together to look after the house and their brothers and sisters. Yes, I like that. (And they're so much more organised than I'll ever be! Embarassed

)

All in all, although I've written some critical things, I do like this book. No idea what evil cuts the pb has done though, only have the hb. Very Happy

#4: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:51 pm
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I'm not sure that Margot should've been expelled, but I certainly think she got off very lightly. A similar attitude seems to be taken (although there were no staff involved) when Darrell wallops Gwendoline at Malory Towers - it's OK to do something violent if it's only because you lost your temper and isn't because you're being "dishonourable". I accept that they're trying to say that she isn't a "bad" person as they thought Thekla was, but chucking a heavy object at someone's head could potentially kill someone - it's one of the worst things anyone at the school ever does, and Margot more or less gets off scot free!

My cousin was once wrongly arrested for shoplifting, so I know it does happen, but Kathie's attitude annoyed me too! The kidnapping was a bit weird. but again these things unfortunately do happen.

I could understand it if the triplets'd said that it might be best if Doris passed away sooner rather than later if their reasoning was that she'd be better out of her pain and suffering. Saying it from the point of view of Mary-Lou's career seems a bit off.

I like seeing the triplets as central characters - I only wish that Con'd continued to be shown as a stronger character after this book.

#5: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:37 pm
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I thought I would supply the uncut scene from Margot's talk with Miss Annersley for the people who don't have it. (It's pretty long, sorry):

Quote:

MATRON HENSCHELL had already told Miss Annersley which girls had helped her. When neither of the Maynards had appeared at Prayers, she guessed that one of them - and most probably Margot - had been badly upset. Barbara had very little information as to how the accident had happened. The Head had noticed that Alicia was paler than usual and looked as if she had been crying, so she decided to leave her until she had had time to recover. Len Maynard was the one most likely to be able to give her a clear story. Hence her arrival in Gentian. Having sent Len off to classes, she turned her attention to the girl who had proved one of the most difficult the school had ever had to deal with.
Margot had struggled into a sitting position and was mopping her eyes. The Head, with an eye to her face, all puffed and mottled with crying, realised that the girl had had a nasty shock. Knowing Margot, she instantly jumped to the correct conclusion that she had had a good deal to do with the matter. The first thing was to get her calmed. Questions could come after.
Miss Annersley's first remark, therefore, was a minor shock. “ Really, Margot, there can't be any need to scrub your eyes like that. Get up and go and sponge your face thoroughly with cold water. You'll feel much better then. Run along; I'll wait here for you.”
She swung the chair round to the window and sat down while Margot, her sobs partly checked by this matter-of-fact way of dealing with things, rolled off the bed and went to do as she was told. When she came back, apart from an occasional choke, she had stopped crying. The water had brought her face to something more like itself and her head, though still aching, felt better. As for the toothache, she had forgotten about it in the throes of her remorse.
“ That's better,” Miss Annersley said, regarding her critically. “ Tidy your hair and then come with me. Be quick! I'm teaching next period, so I can't waste any time.”
Margot brushed her curls and then turned. “I'm ready now, Miss Annersley.”
“ Good! Then come along.”
She took the girl into her own quarters. If they went to the study, there might be half-a-dozen interruptions to cope with.
“Now, Margot,” she said when they were in her private sittingroom, “ what have you to tell me?”
“ That it was all my fault - my beastly temper,” Margot said in low tones.
“ What was all your fault?” “ Betty's accident!”
“How did you manage that, I wonder?” Miss Annersley kept her voice quietly conversational and it helped Margot.
“ I lost my temper with her -- no; I was in a temper to start with. I was rowing with Len and Betty said something and - well, I just grabbed the first thing handy and chucked it at her.”
“ I see. What did you throw? Try to keep from using so much slang.”
“ I'm sorry; I forgot. It-it was one of my book-ends.” Margot was crimson as she said this and she refused to meet the keen eyes contemplating her.
The Head was silent for a moment. Then she said, “ Quite an unpleasant missile! And a most unpleasant confession from you. You are sixteen now and yet you can still behave like one of the little girls in a rage. Really, Margot!”
It was impossible for Margot to go any redder. She shuffled her feet and said nothing. The Head watched her for a moment. When she spoke again her voice was so incisive that Margot jumped.
“ Look at me, Margot!” Margot raised her eyes and, even as Jack and Go had found, felt it impossible to look away. “This is no more than a most disappointing return to your earlier childishness. What excuse have you?”
“ I-it was toothache.”
“ Toothache?”
“ Yes!”
“ Yours - or Betty's?”
“ M-mine !”
“ How long have you had it?”
“ Since the beginning of the week - off and on.”
“ Why did you not report to Matron at once? You know the rules!”
Margot was tongue-tied. Miss Annersley sat gazing at her. An answer was clearly indicated, but how could she say, “ I funked the dentist”? She couldn't. But those ice-cold eyes were compelling her to speak. Very like the little girl with whom she had been compared, she faltered out, “ I-I didn't want to go to the dentist. I thought - it might go off.”
“ Come to the window. Open your mouth and let me see.”
Margot was a tall girl, but the Head was just a little taller. She stooped down and examined the mouth closely. What she saw nearly brought an exclamation from her, but she suppressed it in time. She no longer wondered that the girl was looking white with black shadows under her eyes. The tooth was in a bad way. Secretly, the Head doubted if even Herr von Francius could save it. She said nothing about that, however.
“ Yes; that will do,” she said. “ Come and sit down again. Now please tell me how long this has been going on.”
Margot thought back. “ Really, I suppose I felt it last week - Saturday afternoon. I was eating toffee and it stuck to my teeth. I had to get it clear with my finger and later, I felt a hole. It didn't begin to ache till Sunday, though, when I was eating Edinburgh rock.”
“ I see.” There was a long pause during which Margot sat wondering what was going to happen now and the Head revolved many things in her mind. Margot's dread of the dentist was inherited. Joey Maynard had gone to ridiculous lengths in her own school days in her efforts to avoid him. At the same time it was absurd for a girl of Margot's age to show such cowardice. She looked across at her and decided to speak.
“ And so,” she said in measured tones, “ because you are a coward, you have come near to killing another girl. If the blow had been less than half-an-inch nearer the temple Betty might be dead now. Do you realize that?”
Margot stared at her in silence, her face as white as it had been red.
“ Is-is that true ?” she at last asked tonelessly.
“Absolutely true.”
Margot flinched visibly. “ I-I” she stopped.
“You see,” said the Head, “to what lengths your unbridled rage might have led you. I am sure you never meant to hurt Betty, but you let your temper get the better of you.”
Margot had nothing to say. Miss Annersley looked at her thoughtfully. Between the pain of her tooth and the shock of Betty's injury, she thought she had had nearly enough. She went on.
“ You are almost sixteen-and-a-half, yet your own little sister Felicity, who is nine years younger, would be ashamed to behave as you have, done.”
Margot was nearly in tears again. “ None - of the others - were born - with such a temper as mine. I can't - help it!” she gasped.
“ That's nonsense. Len has quite as hot a temper as yours, but she manages to keep it under. Of course you can help it if you try. However, all this is beside the point. I tell you plainly, Margot, that if this is to go on I must ask your parents to remove you. I cannot under-take such a responsibility any longer. I must think of the other girls.”
Margot jumped up. “ Not that - oh, please not that!” she cried.
“ Sit down and listen to what I have to say,” the Head returned, her tone softening a little. “No; I shall not expel you now. I will give you another chance. I am hoping that the clear knowledge of what might have happened will help you to try harder and to keep on trying. You are to stay here this morning until I come to you again. Until then, I want you to think of what I have said and to pray to God that you may be given strength to fight this bosom enemy of yours. Believe me, child,” her voice was growing kinder, “ it is the only way for any of us. Now I must go, but I'll ask Matron to come and see what she can do to relieve your pain until we can take you to Berne.”
“ Th-thank you,” Margot said shakily. “ And - and I'll do - as you said.”
Miss Annersley had risen and the girl rose with her. The Head set her hands on the slim shoulders and looked down into the pale face. “ Yes; I know that. And Margot, don't despair. You'll win in the end if you really try.”
It was the old kind voice, the old kind glance. The Head left the room and Margot was crying again, but quietly, and the worst of her mental pain had gone.

#6: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:02 pm
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Thanks for that KB. It's clear she came close to being expelled - but didn't Deira throw a stone at Grizel in Head Girl - and burn a manuscript book? She wasn't expelled either. I think Thekla was expelled because she showed no remorse and Betty because the other girls would have been unable to forgive or associate with her. My main gripe is with EBD. We are told constantly that Margot is 'improving' and yet she gets worse and worse. She was never as bad as a Middle. If Betty had been seriously injured/killed would Joey have been blamed like sister-in-law Lydia?

#7: Author: Dreaming Marianne, Location: The Peninusular

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:30 am
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I didn't realise just how old Margot was. I don't think there's any excuse for behaving that way at tat age. It's pathetic.

#8: Author: Imogen,

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:39 pm
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I love Triplets, it's good to get to know them better especially Con. There's a nice mix of fun stories and dramatic stories. I don't think Margot should have been expelled but she was very lucky not to get into more trouble than she did. The shoplifting story was good and the snow rescue was exiting and I love the bit where Con gets the lead in the pantomine although I do feel sad for the 2 girls who had to drop out. I don't like the kidnapping so much though. It was good that they all had a story together at the end but it seemed a bit unrealistic. The triplets are good characters, it's nice to see them in situations we they're not usually in like with Len getting arrested and Con getting the leading role.

#9: Author: catherine, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:33 pm
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I don't really think Margot did deserve to be expelled - it was a pretty horrific thing she did and yes, she could have killed Betty but then Emerence could have killed Mary-Lou and equally, Emerence could have killed herself in 'Kenya'. Emerence had even less excuse than Margot - Emerence's actions were the result of deliberate disobedience and done in cold blood - she was thinking clearly at the time. Margot was in pain and all on edge and probably short of sleep and wasn't thinking when she did it. I think if she had been expelled, she would have become very bitter and the Head realised this and also that the knowledge of what her temper almost caused her to do on one occasion, would hold her in better stead as it would mean she would be more likely to make an effort to control her temper and become a better person.

I found the shoplifting thing quite plausible - and it made a refreshing change to see Len and Rosamund being the ones to get it wrong. But it was Miss Charlesworth and Miss Moore who were with them, not Kathie!! I think really all Miss Charlesworth was trying to point out was that Len was very well-connected and if the store proceeded with their charge even though they weren't absolutely sure of their facts, it would cause them a great deal of embarrassment.

I enjoyed seeing more of Con but as others have said, it would have been good to see her prominence continue.

#10: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:59 pm
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catherine wrote:

I don't really think Margot did deserve to be expelled - it was a pretty horrific thing she did and yes, she could have killed Betty but then Emerence could have killed Mary-Lou ....

OTOH, Emerence didn't set out to hurt anyone else, whereas Margot did. And isn't she older than Emerence was at the time of Mary Lou's accident? And this is her second very serious offence, plus all the other occasions when she's lacked self discipline, such as when she let off the sparkler in New Mistress.

I'm not sure whether she should have been expelled, but I do think she should have suffered some lasting consequences for what she did. Not being made a prefect, perhaps.

Jay B.

#11: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:32 am
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I don't necessarily think that Margot should be expelled, but the only punishment she actually gets is a strict talking to, a cry, and a nap - there should have been something more - possibly a suspension, or a demotion to middle's privileges on the grounds that she can't be trusted to watch herself. I'd also have seriously reconsidered whether she should be a prefect the following year.

If I were Joey and Jack, I would have been inclined to cancel the Australian trip. If she is so lacking in self control that she is a danger to others, I wouldn't be inclined to trust her in Australia, particularly under the care of the Hopes, who are not known for their parenting skills.

-----

Actually, it's interesting to compare the different potential expellable offences over the series.

Thekla (age 16) - general bad behaviour and attitude, followed by bullying and attempted blackmail with no remorse -> expelled.

Vera Smithers (age ~16) - writing anonymous slanderous not to Elisaveta and her father with no remorse -> expelled.

Deira O'Hagan (age ~16, prefect) - burns Grizel's manuscript book and letter in a fit of temper with no remorse, badly injures Grizel in a fit of temper, is very remorseful -> no serious consequences, is not demoted, is second prefect the next term.

Bettny Wynne Davies (17) - treason and collaboration with a German spy but is very remorseful -> expelled for her own safety.

Diana Skelton (16) - general bad behaviour plus vandalism and blackmail, is eventually remorseful, but not at first -> not expelled, is severely punished and later removed from the school for other offenses by her parents.

Emerence Hope (14) - a history of bad behavior but is gradually improving, badly injures Mary-Lou inadvertendly through disobedience, and is injured herself. Very repentent -> no serious consequences other than her injuries.

Margot Maynard (14 & 16) - a history of bad behavior and uncontrollable temper. First blackmails and bullies her sisters friend at age 14 -> no repercussions on the school side, but is shunned by her father adn is then remoreseful. Second case, badly injures another student in a fit of rage - is very remorseful -> a stern talking to, but no official punishment.

----

Margot's cases are closest to Thekla's (bullying and blackmail) and Deira's (injuring someone in a fit of rage). Thekla is expelled, while Deira is not punished. However, Deira was in the middle of a snowball fight where people are flinging stuff at each other anyways, and Margot was in a library.

#12: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:53 am
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Quote:

If I were Joey and Jack, I would have been inclined to cancel the Australian trip.

I considered that, but wondered if it was fair to punish her at home for something that happened at school. The clock/Ted affair was partly a home thing, as in accepting it Margot knew she was doing something her parents would disapprove of.

On a related note, we're told that Betty went to Miss A. and took half the blame for what happened and was lectured on tact. Does anyone else think that's unfair? All she did was remind Margot that younger girls could hear her and she'd be in trouble if Matey heard her. Hardly an offence deserving of being brained with a bookend. Is there a sense that she wasn't entitled to challenge Margot's bad behaviour because Margot is a Maynard?

And poor Alicia, Betty's long standing best friend, receives no comfort at all that we see!

Jay B.

#13: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:43 am
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JayB wrote:

Quote:

If I were Joey and Jack, I would have been inclined to cancel the Australian trip.

I think it's reasonable. If I had misbehaved badly enough, my parents certainly would have reinforced it with a punishment at home, and I can certainly see them disapproving of near-manslaughter. For the Australia trip, it would also partly be safety. If Margot is still impulsive and immature enough to injure someone badly in a fit of temper, it's probably not all that wise to send her off on a vacation to Australia away from parents and teachers (and the Hopes are not known as strict parents).

Quote:

On a related note, we're told that Betty went to Miss A. and took half the blame for what happened and was lectured on tact. Does anyone else think that's unfair? All she did was remind Margot that younger girls could hear her and she'd be in trouble if Matey heard her. Hardly an offence deserving of being brained with a bookend. Is there a sense that she wasn't entitled to challenge Margot's bad behaviour because Margot is a Maynard?

I think it's more the CS habit of spreading the blame around - if someone's done something bad, then obviously everyone in the general vicinity is partially to blame.

It's like Katherine Gordon getting dressed down for not suspecting that the note from the mistress was a fake, or several of Mary-Lou's gang being severely punished for gasping with shock when Verity rebells against singing German. In all cases people are blamed for what is fairly normal, reasonable behaviour.

#14: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:40 am
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jennifer wrote:

Margot's cases are closest to Thekla's (bullying and blackmail) and Deira's (injuring someone in a fit of rage). Thekla is expelled, while Deira is not punished. However, Deira was in the middle of a snowball fight where people are flinging stuff at each other anyways, and Margot was in a library.

But the difference between Margot and Thekla is that Margot shows remorse, although Betty W-D did too and she was expelled. Maybe that was becasue it was wartime and her crime was seen as being against the Realm.

#15: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:43 am
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Katherine wrote:

jennifer wrote:

I think the real difference between Margot and Thekla (whether this makes it better or wose, I'm not sure) is that Margot knew, the moment she'd done it, that what she'd done was wrong, whereas Thekla didn't even recognise she'd done anything so very wrong until several years later.

Betty was expelled mostly for her own good - there would have been no way for her to stay once the story got round that she'd helped a German spy. That is very different!

Ray *fence sitting*

#16: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:48 pm
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I think remorse only gets you so far - Margot seems to only get remorseful when things blow up in her face - after she nearly drowns in the Lake, after Emerence and Mary-Lou are injured, after she's caught out in her blackmailing/bullying and is shunned by her father, after she injures Betty, after one of the younger girls is injured at Games and she hears the kids talking about her nasty temper. It seems to take dire consequences before she realises she's acting badly and feels sorry.

I think allowing her to separate her badness into her 'devil' was a bad idea - it may have been cute when she was five, but by age sixteen treating her own bad behavior as the suggestions of a third party is a bit unhinged.

I feel sorry for her though. I think she was done a real disservice in the way she was always pushed at to go up in form to be with her sisters - she may be bright, but she's also lazy, immature and impulsive and has poor self control. I think she would probably have been better off going at a steady pace (ie one form a year) with girls her own age, and working on her emotional maturity, rather than being pushed to be with older, more mature girls.

I do wonder at her later prefect status, particularly as games prefect. She seems more suited towards a prefect job where she wouldn't have to manage other girls, given her lack of patience and sharp tongue.

#17: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:58 pm
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jennifer wrote:

I feel sorry for her though. I think she was done a real disservice in the way she was always pushed at to go up in form to be with her sisters - she may be bright, but she's also lazy, immature and impulsive and has poor self control. I think she would probably have been better off going at a steady pace (ie one form a year) with girls her own age, and working on her emotional maturity, rather than being pushed to be with older, more mature girls.

At one point - I think it's in Excitements and the mistress involved is Kathie Ferrars - she's told that she needs to try harder and "see if she can't come nearer Len and Con" in the form lists! It's really unfair to make a comment like that!

#18: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:11 pm
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Quote:

But isn't she the brightest of the triplets? It's just that she doesn't work steadily, but in fits and bursts do doesn't do as well. In that case, she should be able to do as well as Len and Con. I agree though that she suffered from not having the emotional maturity of the girls she was on a par with academically.

#19: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:53 pm
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It's true she often feels guilty that she does not get her removes like her sisters, but what really was the point of forever moving up? They end up having three years in the sixth form.

#20: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:21 am
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Katherine wrote:

Quote:

Sheer intelligence is only part of academic success (I say this as an academic, and someone who knows a lot of frighteningly bright people). I've met some very bright people who didn't do very well in formal academics, and some people of average ability who got very good marks through hard, careful work.

If a kid has a high IQ, but is rebellious and mouthy and hates sitting still, their marks will suffer and they may not do as well as a kid of moderate intelligence who is obedient and works hard and steadily and is good at following instructions. Or someone (like me) who is bright but who as a kid had terrible handwriting, sloppy work habits and a tendency to go off on intellectual tangents may get lower marks than someone who has less native ability but actually did what the teacher asked.

If a kid's going through a lot in their personal life - death of a family member, abuse, parental divorce, blended families - their emotional state can affect their concentration and behavior. I have a friend who flunked out of university for a year, sorted out her personal problems, and came back to get straight As.

In other cases psychological or physical problems (learning disabilities, ADD, poor hearing or eyesight) can work against the intelligence in actual performance.

In Margot's case she's immature, inclined to be lazy, and has trouble working steadily - probably partially personality and partially early training. Those traits work directly against her natural intelligence when it comes to actual school performance - she has less self discipline than her sisters, and less was expected of her as a young child. She also missed more school as a child due to illness, and spent two years away from the Chalet School rather than the one of her sisters. I would also guess that she was rebelling a bit from unduly high expectations, and conforming to her role as the bad triplet.

The scene that gets me is from Changes

Quote:

I was in Lower II B when I left. (Margot)

I was Upper II when we went away last year, and Con was Lower II A . (Len)

"Len always was the cleverest of us three," Con suddenly said. "At
least," she added conscientiously, "Margot is really that, Papa says;
but she doesn't work as hard."

"Now for you, Margot. You're going to Upper IIIA and you
must give me your word to do your best to work steadily. It's rather
disgraceful, you know, that you should have to be two forms below Len
who is the same age." (Miss Annersley)

The triplets are ten. Len has gone from Upper II -> Upper IVb in a year - if she were progressing at a form per year she would be in Lower III at this point, as she left and returned mid year - that's a jump of three full forms, and is two full years younger than the next youngest girl in the form.

Margot has gone from Lower II to Upper III, when, at a form a year she should have gone Lower II -> Upper II -> Lower III, so she's still jumped a form in two years, and is with girls roughly her own age, but is told that she's a disgrace because of it! Plus, her parents discuss her academic shortcomings in the family, and her sisters feel free to comment on it to a mistress.

#21: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:55 pm
—

Mel wrote:

It's true she often feels guilty that she does not get her removes like her sisters, but what really was the point of forever moving up? They end up having three years in the sixth form.

Which they didn't really need, since they were getting on for 19 by the time they left (although they were by that time in the right year for their age). Nowadays I suppose they'd take a gap year. They should really have gone to St Mildred's for that last year, but I suppose EBD didn't want to lose them from the school proper until she had to. And it does work out quite well with the triplets' last term at school being the end of the series.

Jay B.

#22: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:22 pm
—
It got a little bit silly really - they were Seniors at 12! & I don't know what they did in the VIth form for 3 years - did they do the same syllabus more than once, or different subjects in different years Rolling Eyes

#23: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:33 pm
—

Alison H wrote:

did they do the same syllabus more than once, or different subjects in different years Rolling Eyes

I think there are references to them doing more specialised work, and having extra coaching in their subjects. I'll try to find which book it was in. Must have been a nightmare for the staff, fitting it all into the timetable, and trying to think of something to teach them.

ETA From Challenge - Miss Annersley explaining why Heather Clayton is moving on to St Mildred's

Quote:

"Mr Clayton thinks Heather should have at least the one term’s experience there and I agree with him. He knows that here she would only be marking time. At St Mildred’s she will come up against something that is quite otherwise.”
“Then what about us?” Margot demanded. “Won’t we be marking time too?”
“No; you three are needed here and you know it. You will go on with your advanced work, but you are all going on to the university. Your work will continue along the same lines there. Heather will be plunged into a great deal of new work.”

Jay B.

#24: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:49 am
—
Would the Maynards' free tuition for their girls have extended to St Mildreds? If it didn't, which is quite likely, the family may not have been able to afford St Mildred's for three girls at once - I suspect the fees were not at all cheap.

Actually, their form progression is pretty silly when you look at it

For Len:

IIb -> IIa -> [Away for a year] -> Upper IVb -> L4a -> U4a -> Inter V -> Vb -> Va -> L6 -> U6 -> U6

For Margot:

IIb -> [Away for 2 years] -> U3a -> L4b -> U4b -> Inter V -> Inter V/Vb -> Vb -> L6 -> U6 -> U6

So Len and Con get a huge jump in form when they are about 10, putting them with 13 adn 14 year olds. Len actually goes down a form when they move to Switzerland, but they stay at least 2 years younger than anyone else in their form for three years. The school then invents Inter V to keep them from becoming seniors at 12, and they fit in an extra year at Upper 6, making them 19 when they actually graduate.

Margot, on the other hand, gets a jump in form at 10 as well (although it's not good enough for Miss Annersley), does a normal form progression, although still 2 years younger than the rest of her class, until Inter V where she spends a year and a half in Inter V, a year and a half in Vb, skips Va completely, and finishes off with two years in U6.

There's actually a trend in age EBDisms in general over the series. Girls tend to age too quickly when they're younger - going from birth to fourth form much too quickly, but from fourht form on they are much more likely to age more slowly, keeping them in the middle/young senior category at school for much longer.

#25: The Chalet School Triplets Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:47 am
—

Alison H wrote:

I'm not sure that Margot should've been expelled, but I certainly think she got off very lightly. A similar attitude seems to be taken (although there were no staff involved) when Darrell wallops Gwendoline at Malory Towers - it's OK to do something violent if it's only because you lost your temper and isn't because you're being "dishonourable".

But wasn't the whole Darrell incident over Gwendoline holding Mary Lou under water despite Mary Lou being terrified of water and didn't Darrell apologize to everyone involved almost straight away. I know it wasn't the best thing to do but Darrell was 12 at the time and at least makes a concerted effort to control her temper throughout her school life and suceeds by the time she reaches Margot's age. She is also a nicer person overall. Margot on the other hand is never allowed to truly reform and quite frankly dosen't seem to have much in the way of redeeming qualities. That always annoys me about Margot. Almost everyone else is allowed to reform except her and Grizel. I quite like the book. I wish we got to see another side to Margot other than the whole lose your temper and repent storyline. Personally I would have liked to see Con lose her temper or something that was a bit different to the box EBD puts the three in never to be allowed to escape from it

#26: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:46 pm
—
Con does lose her temper, but in Theodora. It may have been cut from the paperback though. I think it's the only time in her entire life! And does Len ever lose hers? She's described in one of the books as having a temper just as hot as Margot's but better controlled, but I can't think of a single instance of it happening.

#27: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:00 pm
—

Hannah-Lou wrote:

And does Len ever lose hers? She's described in one of the books as having a temper just as hot as Margot's but better controlled, but I can't think of a single instance of it happening.

With Prunella Davidson in Does It Again?

#28: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:02 pm
—
Haven't read that one! Increadibly hard to get hold of, for some reason I can't work out. It always sells for far more than I want to spend on a 2nd hand paperback, when I feel that it can't be that rare, unlike the later ones.

Sorry, totally off topic!

#29: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:32 pm
—

Mia wrote:

Hannah-Lou wrote:

And does Len ever lose hers? She's described in one of the books as having a temper just as hot as Margot's but better controlled, but I can't think of a single instance of it happening.

With Prunella Davidson in Does It Again?

Yes but she was going down with a bad bout of flu at tthe time - I don't think there is any other time when Len's loses her temper - she's always trying to make peace.

#30: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:41 pm
—

Alison H wrote:

It got a little bit silly really - they were Seniors at 12! & I don't know what they did in the VIth form for 3 years - did they do the same syllabus more than once, or different subjects in different years Rolling Eyes

It is a bit silly but in fairness to EBD I read a book in which the heroine was twelve and a half but so good at everything she went into Upper IV, which in this book was a Senior form, (and came top in half the classes), while all her form-mates were about fourteen and a half. So she wasn't the only one!

I quite liked Triplets. It's nice that Con gets to shine (thrice) - though there's a bit at the beginning where she is all wrapped up in a 'delightful secret' of her own which I took to mean she had entered a writing competition, and was disappointed when I never heard any more about it!

I like most of the 'incidents' that make up the story as well. When reading CS I'm never looking for believability so implausible storylines (within limits) don't really bother me. The only problem I have is that in this book clearly all the triplets are supposed to get a chance to shine and Margot's only chance is when she nearly kills someone! I think EBD tries to make the incident partly Betty's fault (CS girls are always very aware of the consequences of their actions) but fails. It would have been better if Margot had pushed Betty away rather than throwing something at her.

While I think it would have been quite reasonable to expel Margot, in CS traditions it's understandable that she isn't. Thekla is expelled because she's practically sociopathic. Betty is expelled because she'll never be accepted after what she's done. But the bookend incident I think is most closely related to Deira's throwing the stone at Grizel, concussing her for several hours. In that instance Deira was a prefect and had previously behaved maliciously - destroying property - and then really lets herself go and nearly brains Grizel. She recieves absolutely no punishment and actually remains a prefect, and is promoted the next year. However, she is remorseful. Remorse is key in CS IMO. Margot has not previously conducted a vendetta against Betty as Deira does, so IMO she is less culpable. I think in a lot of schools both would be expelled, but EBD prefers reformation. Very Happy

#31: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:56 pm
—

JayB wrote:

ETA From Challenge - Miss Annersley explaining why Heather Clayton is moving on to St Mildred's

Quote:

Sorry I should have put this in my other post rather than spree, but I do think the above sounds like EBD explaining why because a reader asked about it. Very Happy

#32: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:06 pm
—

Quote:

you three are needed here and you know it.

Clearly, no-one else in the school is capable of being Head Girl, Games Captain or editor of the Chaletian.

Query - who would have been Head Girl if the Triplets hadn't stayed on for that extra year? I suppose Ruey would have been Games Captain.

Jay B.

#33: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:15 am
—

JayB wrote:

Quote:

you three are needed here and you know it.

It's an odd year, prefect wise. We've got Len, Con, Margot, Joan Dancey, Jean Daudet, Ted Grantely, Eve Hurrell, Carmela Walther, all of whom have been in sixth form for three years! Then we've got Priscilla and Primrose who should be well over 20 by this point.

Of the prefects in the last year the others are Louise Grumnbaum, Marie Huber, Kirsten Johanssen, Gabrielle Meynolles, Ruey Richardson, Maria Zinkel (all upper sixth) and Audrey Everett, Melanie Lucas and Henriette Zendl (lower sixth), for a total of 20 prefects.

If the triplets weren't there, I'd guess Ruey as Head Girl, Primrose Trevoase as Games Prefect and someone random we'd nevver heard of as second (as often happens).

#34: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:12 am
—
There's Mary Allen, too - isn't she form prefect of the Lower Sixth the year before? I'd have her as Head Girl, Ruey for Games and Primrose for Second Pree.

Or maybe even Audrey as Head Girl - that's the classic EBD reformation plot line satisfied. But probably Audrey would have had to be at least a sub-pree the year before, and she wasn't. Mary and Primrose were, I think.

Caroline.

#35: Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
—

Loryat wrote:

I think in a lot of schools both would be expelled, but EBD prefers reformation. Very Happy

It's so difficult to get a kid expelled... Don't even start me on the subject!

I would have thought Margot would have been given some sort of internal exclusion - Grizel was excluded in her first term, wasn't Diana also kept in isolation for a few days?

Overall, I quite like the book. It doesn't flow very well, it's too episodic but I still enjoy it. I do like Con in this, it's good to see her taking centre stage.

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