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#1: Relationships: Reg & Len Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:14 pm
—
About three months ago we discussed Prefects so I dithered about whether to start this - however the Prefects thread concentrated on the book as a whole, whereas here we are concentrating exclusively on the relationship between Len and Reg, as a relationship in itself, similar to how we did with Madge and Jem, or Jack and Joey.

Relevant quotes (thank you Jennifer Very Happy

)

From Reunion

Quote:

Joey nodded. "He's hinted to me once or twice that he finds our young
Len more than attractive. Whether it'll come to anything or not, I
couldn't tell you. Len isn't seventeen yet and she's far too occupied
with school affairs to think about that sort of thing. She likes boys
all right as chums, but as far as I know, she hasn't begun to think of
them in any other light. I don't doubt it'll come, but as yet she's
chiefly preoccupied with being a prefect and looking forward to Oxford
and teaching. She really does want to do that, you know."

"Then what are you talking about?" Mollie Mackenzie demanded.

"Well, don't let anyone know I've told you, but last Sunday Reg and
Jack had a talk. Reg, it seems, wanted to know if we'd mind if he
spoke to her in a year or so's time."

"What did Jack say?" Mollie asked curiously.

"Told him that it would depend on Len herself. She certainly isn't
ready for anything of that kind at the moment. In a year or two, she
very well might be. She's fond of Reg, I know. She always has been
since they were tinies of four and he was fourteen or
thereabouts. Whether that's a good enough foundation for anything as
serious as marriage is more than I can say. It worked in our
case. Jack and I were pals from the time I was thirteen. It might very
well work out the same way with Len and Reg. However, Jack made him
promise to say nothing to her until her schooldays ended. Besides, he
ought to have more to offer her than he has at the moment - and I'm
not referring to money. Reg's old great-aunt left him all she had and
it was a shock when we heard how much it was. He has quite a nice
little private income apart from anything he may earn. And Len will
have her share of Grannie Maynard's legacy when she comes of age. So
far as all that goes, it's good enough. But they're both too
young. He's not twenty-six and this is his first job. If he makes good
in it and she cares enough, there's no reason why they shouldn't make
a go of it later on. But she hasn't met a lot of boys so far and she
ought to before she comes to a final decision. Oh, Winifred Embury's
crowd and Roger and Roddy Richardson, of course, but they don't
count."

From Adrienne

Quote:

He attended to all the minor casualties, and it was then that Len
Maynard realized that her future was settled, once she had finished
her formal education, though she said nothing about it to anyone for
some months to come. She had burned two fingers in helping to tear
down the scenery and had sustained a bad bruise on one arm as well.
As the doctor finished bandaging the fingers, she looked up at him to
say rather shakily, "Well, a thrilling time has been had by all,
whether it's good or not." What she saw in his eyes as they met hers
told her volumes. Joey Maynard always vowed that Len grew up
completely in those moments.

From Althea

Quote:

Reg Entwistle had first met the Maynards when he was a boy of twelve
and the triplets were only three. He was by now one of the family's
closest friends. He liked all the three elder girls but for the past
two years Len had been his favourite. Lately he had realised that
when she went to Oxford she would miss her very much indeed: a distant
friendship would not satisfy him, he wanted something much more than
that. He knew, however, that Len had no such thoughts. She was far
too thrilled at the prospect of going to Oxford to think of anything
else. Reg knew that it was a question of waiting, and with the quiet
dogged persistence which was one of his characteristics her settled
down to do this.

One thing he had done. He had spoken to the doctor in no uncertain
terms, but neither Jack nor Joey was anxious to have the present
situation changed, at least until Len was older and more mature. At
present she was still very much a schoolgirl and though, unknown to
her parents, she had begun to think of her future rather more widely
than before and leaving school life behind her. Nevertheless Reg
hoped to have a firmer understanding before she went to Oxford in the
autumn.

Quote:

Len paused to say, "Hullo! So you've come to help. Good!"

"Don't I always?" Reg demanded in injured tones.

"No, not always," Len returned firmly. "I've known occasions when
you've simply slid out of it."

"Not for several years now," Reg said, giving her a meaning look.

Len went faintly pink. "Don't talk nonsense," she said sharply. "In
any case I can't stop to talk at all. I must run," and she sped off.

Reg looked after her and sighed. "I wish she'd grow up," he said to
himself. "It's all very well being matey, but I want more than that. A
heck of a lot more than that." However, it was no use wishing. He
could only wait and, as far as possible, see to it that no one else
took his place, and it wasn't going to be easy once Len had gone to
Oxford.

and

Quote:

She gave a gasp of relief as Reg Entwistle sprang forward and caught
Ailie. "You know," she said later to Vi, "I rather think Reg will get
what he wants. He's certainly got all his wits about him."

Quote:

(Joey)"I'm not so sure. Reg knows what he wants, but I'm not certain about Len, and I don't mind telling you that it's about the first time in her life that I haven't been sure. Reg is a dear boy, but-" and with
that she departed, leaving her sister wishing it were possible to give
her a good shaking on the spot.

Quote:

Len nodded. "Yes, I found that out when Reg went missing. I don't want
to be married yet. I want my college course. A degree is a useful sort
of thing to have, particularly in these days. Once I've got that if
Reg still wants me then I'm his."

"What do you mean exactly by that?" Jo demanded. Then she added, "Mind you, Len! You're not going on playing fast and loose with that poor
boy."

"I don't mean to," Len said. "If nothing else will satisfy him, I'll
be engaged. But I won't be married at once."

"I should think not!" her mother exclaimed. "You don't get married
until you've graduated and that's that!"

and

Quote:

Meanwhile upstairs Len had entered the room where Reg, very sore and
aching, was lying. As she appeared round the door he looked at her
with startled eyes. "Len!" he said incredulously.

She went very pink. "Reg!" she said. "Oh, you poor dear, how dreadful
you look! Are you badly hurt?"

"I don't think so," he returned. "Merely wrench and strain." Then as
she came up to the bed he caught her hands. "Does this mean-"

Len nodded. "I suppose so. Yes!"

Reg pulled her to him and Len sank down beside the bed. His arms went
round her, then he held her from him and looked at her searchingly.

"I take it we're engaged. Like it, darling?"

Len chuckled. "So much I can't think why I didn't know it before. It
all seems absolutely natural and very nice! Yes, of course we're
engaged, only it must be kept dark until term ends."

So, feel free to rant again about how young Len is or how ruthlessly Reg seems to pursue her. But also, feel free to project how their relationship may have developed, had EBD kept writing. Do you subscribe to the New Beginnings or the CGGU futures? How does the relationship between Len and Reg compare the the relationships we've already discussed? In real-time their engagement took place in 1958 (ie when the book was written) but do you think that the type of relationship they have belongs more to an earlier era, perhaps a pre-war setting? Was the gap between when EBD was writing, and when she was writing about, very wide when she is talking about Len and Reg?

And anything else you would like to rant about, in relation to Len and Reg's relationship, please go ahead and join in below Very Happy

#2: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:03 pm
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Spree, as Macyrose (thank you heart

) has found new quotes to add to the collection above, but if I added them there that post might be too long Laughing

From Adrienne:

Quote:

Len nodded. Then she said a very unexpected thing. "Auntie Hilda, do you think Josette is too young to be married? She's not quite nineteen."
The Head looked at her thoughtfully. "I don't think age has a great deal to do with it after all. What matters more is if you've met a man you feel you could bear to spend the rest of your life with - seeing him at breakfast every morning, doing all his mending and cooking his meals, putting up with his whims and fancies - and that is a matter for both sides, let me tell you. Remember that marriage is for life. When your time comes, Len, think long and think hard and be very sure - as sure as you can be. And now," she went on in another tone, "you must go. I have plenty to do and so, I imagine, have you. If you want to discuss this with me, let me know and we'll find time for a talk together. Now be off!"
Len departed to pull on waders and oilies before splashing her way through the slushy mess on the ground. Her cheeks were very pink and there was a light in her eyes that would have told the Head or her mother that she had left the last of her childhood behind with that brief chat. The Head's words had settled for her a question which had been on the nebulous side with her till then. Now she knew where her future seemed likely to lie.
"But, of course, I must do as she says - think long and think hard. But I somehow believe that all my thinking will end one way," she said aloud as she raced round Freudesheim to the backdoor to get rid of her muddy outdoor garments before going off to work on preparations for the party.

From Summer Term:

Quote:

Joey racing madly towards the school encountered one of the young doctors attached to the staff of the great sanatorium at the further end of the Platz. Dr Entwistle was a close friend of the Maynards. Indeed, he had hopes that one day in the future he might become a relation of theirs.

#3: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:47 pm
—
I don't like this relationship! I don't particularly object to the age gap or the fact that Len gets engaged so young, as obviously lots of couples are very happy that way, but I really don't like the way Reg's behaviour comes across.

Approaching a girl's father to ask for permission to court her or whatever was surely out of date by then, but what I find more worrying is that Reg speaks to Jack without having any idea of how Len feels and at a time when he obviously considers that Len is too young to be thinking about a serious relationship. Why didn't he wait until she was a bit older? It almost sounds as if he's asking Jack to slap a "reserved" sign on her!

Then there are numerous references, in the narrative and also by both Madge and Con, to Reg being "forceful" and "getting what he wants". It's clear that he wants to get a commitment from Len before she goes to university, where she might decide that there's life beyond the Platz and or meet someone else. OK, he obviously really likes her and wants to be with them, but he never once seems to consider her feelings and the fact that she might want other things/only think of him as a friend.

I don't like Joey's attitude either. She more or less accuses Len of messing Reg about, plus she broadcasts the details of Reg's private conversation with Jack - including his personal financial affairs - to Grizel and Mollie in Reunion , even before Len knows about any of it.

Plus I think it's all badly handled. OK, Len and Reg know each other well, but surely they'd at least have gone out on a few dates rather than it just being a case of engagement or nothing. And, although the relationship is hinted at for a couple of years before Prefects, it just doesn't seem to progress naturally: Joey and Jack's engagement seems much more natural than Len and Reg's does. Some of it's just awful - like when we're told that Reg likes all the triplets but Len is "his favourite" - how romantic!! I suppose EBD was keen to tie Len's future to the Gornetz Platz, but I still don't like either the relationship itself or the way it was handled.

Rant over!!

#4: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:01 pm
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Part of the problem is that EBD hasn't developed REg as a sympathetic character in the way that she did Jack. But having said that, at least Jack was prepared to wait for Jo to grow up, even after she'd left school. This feels very rushed in comparison.
EBD was never very good at that sort of relationship at the best of times.
I don't like Reg going to Jack before he's got any sort of romantic relationship with Len. It was out of date for the period, though a man would still ask a father if her could marry his daughter, and that lasted into the late 60s, though it was a bit old-fashioned by then.

#5: Author: Sarah_K, Location: St Albans

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:30 pm
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My view of Len and Reg as a couple is oddly in two halves. I read Prefect fairly early on in my discovery of the Chalet School and I was creeped out completely by Reg and his determination. Len is so young and Reg so sure and it just seemed like she was being pushed into something she wasn't ready for.

However.

Having read some of the other books with Reg in now I find myself liking him more and also seeing the relationship as more stable. In a lot of ways Reg is very similar to Jack as he falls for Len and then waits for her to grow up enough to fall for him. One of the big differences is that Len is younger than Joey when she gets engaged (the other is the age gap though I'm vague on what it is between Jack and Joey).

I think the quotes that Róisín gave show that there is a progression in the relationship, and that Len does think of Reg in that way at least a little bit, well before Prefects. The Adrienne quote es[ecially fascinated me as I haven't read that book yet.

I think I mainly have an issue with Prefects when it comes down to it. Because of an "act of god" (the flood) Len ends up being pushed into an engagement that may ultimately be what she wants but woud have probably been less icky if she'd had a year or more at university before Reg proposed.

#6: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:50 am
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I'm also squicked out by their relationship in a way that other young marriages in the series (Joey, Gisela) don't.

Part of it is Reg's determination to reserve Len for himself - speaking to Jack before Len is of an age to even consider engagement (16) to stake his claim and get parental sanction, wanting a commitment *before* she goes to university and meets other men, plus the references to him being forceful and knowing what he wants. With a personality like Mary-Lou this wouldn't bother me - she's also forceful and knows what she wants, and while she'll put her personal wants on hold for others (like her career and her mother) she does it of her own volition.

Len is repeatly described as overly contientious and responsible, young for her age, and tends to take on responsibilities and blame without much of a sense of perspective - like the way she blames herself when Jack does something stupid, rather than Jack, or the mistress in charge, or Jack's parents for not teaching her self control, etc, or holds herself responsible for her triplet's behavior.

Consequently, I could see Len agreeing to an engagement in part because it would make her parents and Reg happy, and because it's not fair to keep dangling, before considering her own wants and needs. I'm not sure she knows if she is fond of him in more than a friendly sense, or crush on a handsome older friend of her parents. I could see her sticking to the engagement even if she had doubts while off at university because, after all, she promised and it wouldn't be fair to break her word. That could lead to an unpleasant marriage in the long run.

Joey and Jack's engagement seemed much more healthy. Joey is a more forceful, selfish character who spends her adolescence avoiding excess responsibility. She's also being raised by a sister and brother in law, and is more used to being considered an adjunct adult of the family, rather than one of many kids. Jack doesn't propose until after Joey is out of school a few years and has had a trip to India under her belt, as well as a pursuit by an unwanted suitor. Joey is also not planning on going away to university - those few years away from your family and familiar environment can make a big difference in your view of the world, as you figure out what parts of you are your upbringing and what parts are intrinsic to her personality.

In the long term they might be fine - Len may hate living away from the Platz and be happy to settle back into her familiar, protected environment, darning Reg's socks, having lots of babies and living next door to Freudsheim. (Can you imaging Joey as a mother in law? Shocked

) Or she may blossom in University, decide she really doesn't want to settle down on the Platz and have lots of babies right away and likes living her own life, away from excessive demands by her family and a role that has been forced on her from birth. Or she may marry Reg and find out that she doesn't like living next door to her mother, babysitting younger siblings when necessary, having lots of babies, gossiping about the middles' latest exploits and being dosed whenever she gets upset or over tired, and be miserably unhappy until she's widowed and can finely live her own life.

I do think their engagement is rather old fashioned. An friend of her parents, ten years older than her, who is established in his career and has known her since toddlerhood, decided he wants to marry her. He speaks to her father for permission to court her when she's old enough. They don't really date on more than a friend of the family level, but go from friends to engaged in one big step.

#7: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:36 am
—
I wonder if Reg spoke to Jack because he wanted to find out if he'd be considered acceptable - perhaps he was wondering if Len was out of his league, and wanted to find out sooner rather than later if there would be problems of that sort if their relationship was to develop.

#8: Author: Amanda M, Location: Wakefield

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:10 am
—

LizB wrote:

I wonder if Reg spoke to Jack because he wanted to find out if he'd be considered acceptable - perhaps he was wondering if Len was out of his league, and wanted to find out sooner rather than later if there would be problems of that sort if their relationship was to develop.

I also wondered about this. When we first meet Reg it's made clear that he is from a different class to the Maynards, and he may have felt that he may not have been accepted due to his roots.

I don't actually mind the relationship that much, from the quotes it seems that Len is also developing feelings for Reg with no pushing from his part. I do think Len has her head screwed on and I don't think she's the kind of person that would be pushed into something that didn't feel right or to do something against her feelings just to make everybody else happy. I'm sure it says somewhere in the books that Len has a stubborn streak, but I can't remember where Embarassed

#9: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:02 am
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We don't really see enough of Reg and Len together to get much idea of their relationship.

One of the things I don't like is Jo putting pressure on Len to make a decision while she's still at school. What's the big hurry? Why can't Len be allowed to say she likes Reg, but she doesn't feel ready for such a big commitment? Considering how unwilling Joey was to grow up, and how she admits to having kept her daughters young, you think she'd be more willing to allow Len to grow up in her own time.

Presumably they won't be getting married for at least three years, so there's no need for a formal engagement at this stage. The only reason for the urgency seems to be that Reg wants to stake his claim before Len goes off to university and meets other men. But if they're right for each other, an engagement won't make any difference, and if they're not right, better if Len is allowed to find it out with the least possible hurt and embarrassment for everyone.

#10: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:20 am
—

JayB wrote:

But if they're right for each other, an engagement won't make any difference, and if they're not right, better if Len is allowed to find it out with the least possible hurt and embarrassment for everyone.

Well said!

#11: Author: tiffinata, Location: melbourne, australia

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:24 am
—
I feel uneasy about this relationship too.
I think some of the quotes show Len with a 'hero worship'of Reg and Reg being posessive. If I had a daughter aged 15/16 and had someone 10 years older sniffing around I'd be seriously considering a restraining order!
But to speak with her parents about marrying her, rather strikes me like 'how much for your daughter?'

Reg's background is son of a gentleman schoolteacher left poor and half educated. Has he been left with a feeling of inadequacy? Does he feel he needs to secure an innocent, perhaps even romantically inclined Len while he can, before she finds out there might be a better or more suited man for her? After all, Len has been taught that a promise should not be broken.

#12: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:37 am
—
Sorry to post again, but I've just remembered the comment somewhere about Reg trying to make sure that "no-one else took his place"! It sounds as if he'd've put the frighteners on any other bloke who showed the slightest interest in Len Shocked

#13: Author: Abi, Location: Alton, Hants

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:43 pm
—

JayB wrote:

We don't really see enough of Reg and Len together to get much idea of their relationship.

I think this just puts the finger on how I always felt about the relationship. I like Len, and I like Reg, and I've always thought it was probably a good relationship in theory, but I just don't relate to the adult Reg as a character.

It seems to me that EBD always thought of Len as one of those perfect Chalet girls - they get doctors, and as Reg had been around for a while he seemed to fit the bill.

#14: Author: Lisa A., Location: North Yorkshire

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:35 pm
—
This relationship feels very confused to me. They seem to be neither a young modern couple (Len going off to university and seeing how she felt in three years' time) or an old-fashioned pair (get married to the first person who asks). Maybe it does reflect the uncertainty of those rapidly-changing times, with Joey half trying to keep up with the kids and embrace modern attitudes, and half stuck in the past. Len would just mirror her mother's attitude, not having been exposed to very much that was different. I think it could have done with more explanation about the feelings and motives of each, rather than cryptic hints about their feelings. Maybe it was perfectly logical and obvious at the time??? As it is, it comes across now as disjointed, a bit unbelievable and slightly creepy.

How awful to have your mother witness the "moment at which you grew up", and talk to her friends about it!

#15: Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:54 pm
—
I think if taken within the CS world, then it is the ultimate happy ending, Len going off to uni with an enagement and future all ready for her.

However we can't help but view it from our perspective. I don't think she was that young to be engaged, my mum was married in the mid 60's at 21 and had been engaged for a few years previously and this seems to have been the case for most of the family friends. Now ok, my parents were the leave school at 15, but from all they say there were still cosidered children through their apprenticeships. Even my generation, Darren was 21 when we married, and both of us had already been to weddings of our own friends.

As regard to the depth of their relationship, I think we are meant to see it as slowly growing through those small glimpses in the quotes. They show Len as growing and considering the matter seriously as well as Reg.

Reg speaking to Jack...maybe if he had known Jack would refuse permission, or refuse it until a lot later he would have looked for a job elsewhere so that he would not have seen Len and had to watch other men court her. We don't really know what was said in that conversation after all (mmm, drabble fodder there maybe). Jack didn't encourage him to hand around Len, propose there and then, just to bide his time.

Joey is a gossip and needed a scold's bridle. Laughing

Esp given her comments to Len in prefects about not playing fast and loose.

#16: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:26 pm
—
It's not so much Len's age as the fact that she had been so sheltered and had so little experience of the the world. All she knew was the School and San community on the Platz. The only time we hear of her going away, other than on a family trip, it's to visit 'Tante Simone'. Margot had the trip to Australia to visit Emerence; Len had no similar experience.

#17: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:16 pm
—
I think Len and Reg could be very happy together away from the Platz, but I have a feeling that both of them would stifle if they took a chalet within spitting distance of Joey and the school! In my own private future universe, they leave the Platz and go and work in a deprived area of Birmingham, but I doubt that's what EBD had in mind for them! Nevertheless, I think they'd do better away - and Len always said she wouldn't teach at the Chalet until everybody she knew had left.

#18: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:07 am
—

Mrs Redboots wrote:

I think Len and Reg could be very happy together away from the Platz, but I have a feeling that both of them would stifle if they took a chalet within spitting distance of Joey and the school!

I think that's part of it - when Len comes back to the Platz she will be stepping back into all her old roles as if she hadn't left. If she gets married after leaving university she'll just be turning 21. Felicity will be about 12, Cecily about 9, Geoff and Phil 6 and in day school, and Marie-Claire 5, and I wouldn't put it past Joey to have another baby or two. Jack Lambert would be in Upper 6 and headgirl. So she'd still have her younger siblings to keep an eye on, and babysit when Joey is out visiting, or needed by someone out of town. Jack would still want advice from her mentor. She's be pressured to take Joey's role helping problem girls at school, because, after all, she's her mother's daughter.

I can also see Len being slotted into the perfect wife and mother role, the way she was assigned the perfect daughter role. And can you see Joey staying out of her daughter's marriage. Rolling Eyes

She'd be dropping by without warning at all hours to chat, offering advice, wanted or not, about Len's marriage and children and housekeeping, and how, when she was Len's age, she had triplets, Jack was away at war, and she was a famous children's author, so how could Len possibly be stressed and overtired? And so on.

#19: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:51 am
—
And the babies will start coming along within a year of the wedding, because Len is a Catholic, and anyway no-one in CS land ever delays starting a family. And if they don't start arriving, Joey will want to know why, because her daughter must have a 'proper family', so Len will be under pressure to produce every two years or so.

Of course, TB treatment in sanatoria was on the way out just at the time the triplets were going to Oxford, so by the time Len and Reg are planning their wedding, Reg might be having to look for a new job away from the Platz. Although the San never was solely for TB treatment, so Jack and Jem might be able to keep it going by building up some other area of specialisation.

#20: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:23 am
—
Len never seemed to want to move away, even before she got involved with Reg. Her long-term plan was to return to the CS as a mistress, and even though she planned to teach somewhere else first that was only so that she wouldn't be teaching people who'd known her as a schoolgirl.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with wanting to settle in the place where you grew up - I only live 3 miles from the house I grew up in myself! - but normally people doing that will have their own friends living nearby, and local pubs/other meeting places that they go to, whereas there's just nothing on the Platz. The only people who seem to get out of the School-San world are the domestic staff, who are sometimes mentioned as visiting friends on nearby farms/at some of the nearby hotels.

I can imagine Len ending up with the social highlight of her week being afternoon tea at Freudesheim with Joey, Hilary, Biddy and maybe some of the CS mistresses ... and Jack Lambert coming round to ask her advice on school matters ... but then maybe she'd've liked that?

It's interesting how EBD didn't try to tie Mary-Lou, the other of the 3 main heroines, to the Platz. She could easily have married Mary-Lou off to a nice doctor, maybe Rix or David, and found her a house next door to Joey, but somehow OOAO seems to escape ... Laughing

#21: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:48 am
—

Quote:

Len never seemed to want to move away, even before she got involved with Reg. Her long-term plan was to return to the CS as a mistress, and even though she planned to teach somewhere else first that was only so that she wouldn't be teaching people who'd known her as a schoolgirl.

Although if she waited until Felicity and her crowd had left, that would give her around ten years away, seven of them teaching, long enough to know whether she really did want to go back, and to get a chance to see that the CS way isn't necessarily the only right way to do things.

Going back to teach at the CS is quite a reasonable ambition for her to have at sixteen, when she doesn't know anywhere else. She might well not feel the same at 26.

ETA: Ack! I've just been bitten by a plot bunny!

#22: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:38 am
—

Alison H wrote:

It's interesting how EBD didn't try to tie Mary-Lou, the other of the 3 main heroines, to the Platz. She could easily have married Mary-Lou off to a nice doctor, maybe Rix or David, and found her a house next door to Joey, but somehow OOAO seems to escape ... Laughing

But it could be argued that she doesn't, does she? Mary Lou seems to be forever popping back on what seem to be the most spurious of reasons. Granted her mother dying was a serious event - but when and why did her mother move to the Platz?

#23: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:48 am
—

Lesley wrote:

I think her mother moved to the Platz while Mary-Lou was still at school, she had a chalet up the Rösleinalp, I think. She kept on getting TB - the attack she died of was the second attack she had, I think. And Verity's father needed the Alpine climate.

(I know it's not fashionable to say that climate makes a difference, but I have to admit that I seldom feel as well as I do when in the Alps, so I do have a sneaking sympathy with them all!).

#24: Len & Reg Author: Tor, Location: London

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:47 am
—
I am trying hard to remember how I felt as a child reading these books, when my ideas of relationships probably fitted very well with a CS morality. Infact it was probably partly informed by it Rolling Eyes

!

So I think I remember being really pleased that Len and Reg got together. At least I think I was happy that Len was engaged! I don't know if I registered Reg much as a love interest, as I didn't get the books in order etc. By that point I was definitely all for anything that might keep the books as incestuous as possible! I loved it when people married friend's broters and old girls turned up. So very undescerning was I as a child (but if I wasn't, then I probably would not have been a CS fan).

As an adult however... Oh dear! I think it is skin crawlingly horrid. Jennifer sums u one of my main issues - that Len will sticj to the relationship out of a sense of duty, and even if eventually she does change her mind - against the weight of family expectations etc, it will be messy and difficult for her (and Reg, but he has only himself to blame)....

Pause to remember Len and Reg aren't real!

Lots of my friends, and myself in fact, went to university in long term relationships. One is happily married, but the rest of us took quite a while to extricate ourselves from those (not bad, just not right) relationships - guilt, loyalty to the partner that mistakenly was interpreted as love, and inertia all to blame. And we weren't even engaged. Poor Len!

#25: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:26 pm
—

Mrs Redboots wrote:

Lesley wrote:

But they move back to England once Mrs Carey is 'cured' in Excitements:

Quote:

“That’s where your toes turn in!” Mary-Lou cooed sweetly. She was well aware that she was going to give them all a shock. “I’m coming to England with all of you. Mother was on the ’phone to me just before supper and she says the doctors have given her leave to go home so we’re all going—me first, to stay with Mr. Howell and Gwensi and find someone to start cleaning Cam Beg and Mother and Dad are coming next week with Verity who’s staying to help Mother pack. Won’t it be fun to be at Howells again—though we shall miss Aunt Joey at Plas Gwyn horribly!” she added.

They then go to Glasgow in Commander Carey's behalf (Joey & Co). He then passes away in Wins the Trick. Mrs Carey (Mary-Lou's mother) is then ordered back out to the San in Triplets, and dies in Reunion.

And dragging this back on track, Len never actually specified which brach of the Chalet School she would teach at. What a drop for Joey if Len got a job at the English Branch! Twisted Evil

#26: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:57 pm
—
I think by that stage EBD had pretty much forgotten that she still had a branch at Carnbach! From what Len says about not teaching at the school till people who have known her have left, I think she's talking about the Swiss branch. Len at carnbach sounds good drabble material though.

#27: Marriage and Mary Lou Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:03 pm
—
Thanks Alison for pointing that out, had never struck me previously that Mary Lou hadn't been 'done and dusted' marriage wise and it's not like EBD to leave that in the air, even Grizel gets 'sorted' eventually. I wonder why she is left un-hitched without a beau on the horizon?

#28: Re: Marriage and Mary Lou Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:42 pm
—

kes wrote:

I wonder why she is left un-hitched without a beau on the horizon?

Good point, and one that hadn't occurred to me either - why does EBD leave Mary-Lou's fate up in the air? Confused

These discussions are making me want to reread the last few books in the series Laughing

#29: Marriage and Mary Lou Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:51 pm
—
I did read a Rose and the Lizard 'fusion' of chalet and antonia forest that had Mary Lou getting hitched with Giles (I think I may have this wrong it was a long time ago) interesting and enjoyable but I wasn't convinced, what was the age difference between Mary Lou and Clem's brother Tony?(although wasn't he earmarked for Len in one of the continuation books - what is the right term for these books? Not 'fillers' the ones that carry on like New Beginings, I'd be dangerous if I had a brain) - that could be possible perhaps?

#30: Re: Marriage and Mary Lou Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:35 pm
—

kes wrote:

I did read a Rose and the Lizard 'fusion' of chalet and antonia forest that had Mary Lou getting hitched with Giles (I think I may have this wrong it was a long time ago) interesting and enjoyable but I wasn't convinced, what was the age difference between Mary Lou and Clem's brother Tony?(although wasn't he earmarked for Len in one of the continuation books - what is the right term for these books? Not 'fillers' the ones that carry on like New Beginings, I'd be dangerous if I had a brain) - that could be possible perhaps?

Yes I have heard of that crossover drabble, but haven't read it yet as I'm still working my way through AF and don't want spoilers! Tony is a year younger than Mary-Lou, I think. The word you're looking for is sequel maybe? Very Happy

#31: Re: Marriage and Mary Lou Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:49 pm
—

Quote:

sequel!! doh- of course, still its late and I have only just worked out how to do the pink quote thng!
Where are you up to in AF? I re-read them almost as often as EBD

Edit:Obviously not mastered the pink box quite yet (which actually sounds a bit rude)! and crossover drabble (not 'fusion') wow its a whole new world in here, fab!javascript:emoticon('Laughing')

and after a browse around I appear to be 'spreeing' as well, soz

Edit by Róisín: it's okay- have fixed the formatting and spreeage Wink

#32: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:08 pm
—
Sorry Kes, didn't mean to imply that you were using the wrong jargon or anything Embarassed

Fusion is just as good a word as crossover, probably more descriptive actually!

I've just finished The Ready-Made Family, so I know nothing of what happens beyond that!

#33: len and reg and stuff Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:16 pm
—
No, it helps to have the right jargon and I'd much rather be told, honest!
I expect I've gone right of topic now as well, so am trying to think of AF link to Len and Reg quickly - erm the relationship between Karen and Edwin Dodd strikes every Marlow as odd with him being older and I think not quite of the same 'class' (not bad for off the top of my head after 10pm!) my favourite AF is Peter's Room, especially the discussion around the Brontes and to link this to EBD I think one of the reasons I'm so fond of it is the interaction between siblings in a large family, I like the non-school chalet's for this as well.

#34: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:41 pm
—
Len/Reg vs Karen/Edwin-> interesting.

Len and Karen are both from familes whose fathers work for a living, but who have also roots in landed aristocracy (Trennels; Pretty Maids). They are roughly the same age at the time of engagement (18/19) but Karen goes through with the marriage three weeks after the engagement is announced, whereas the plan is for Len to have three years at university. Both girls are into university though, both in the humanities sector. I'm not sure if it's said that Karen will actually leave her course in Oxford but I suppose she must have, seeing as they move away from the place and she now has three children to care for.

Reg we know is from a lower-class farming background and has no land inheritance - he's helped in financing his education by Len's parents and he then intends to support his marriage by working as a doctor and drawing that salary. We don't know Edwin's background but he clearly doesn't have a land inheritance, nor do we meet his parents (so possibly he is an orphan like Reg is?), he works as an archivist and funds the marriage by drawing that salary, plus in The Ready-Made Family at least, he needs the help of Karen's parents in sheltering his family. Reg is 9 (?) years older than Len; Edwin is 22 years older than Karen.

The parental reactions are quite similar, but for different reasons. That is, Joey and Pam are both tolerant of the match, but Joey is because she knows and likes Reg; Pam is because she knows what it is like to come up against a bad reaction from her own grandmother. The sibling reactions are a bit different - the Marlows don't like Edwin in the least (okay, Nicola does, grudgingly towards the end) whereas Reg is a friend of the family and they have all known him for aeons.

What if they were switched?! I really think Len would have done well with the three small Dodds, being used to managing small children as she was. Karen and Reg - similar outlooks?

#35: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:43 pm
—
I think Tony's a year younger than Mary-Lou - and of course CS girls are only allowed to marry older men, but maybe he'd've done for one of the younger Maynard girls!

I've always been inclined to think that EBD intended Mary-Lou to end up with either Rix (age diff around 7 years) or David (age diff around 4/5 years) - I know that Joey, Madge and presumably eventually Len all marry men around 10 years older than themselves, but Joey describes the 5 year age gap between Primula and Nick Garden as being "a very nice difference too" - but then it's never hinted at anywhere.

Having said which, Mary-Lou would only have been 22 at the end of the series and I think was still at university. It would be nice to think that she'd've gone on to do something other than marry a doctor and settle down on the Gornetz Platz though!

#36: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:49 am
—
It is puzzling that Mary-Lou, being one of EBD's favourites, isn't rewarded with marriage (to a fellow archaeologist, perhaps?) especially since Len (another favourite), who's younger than Mary-Lou is, gets engaged by the end of the series. As it is, it's nice to see one major character whose future is left open.

As for the Len and Reg match I've been trying to think why I don't like it and it's because of a few reasons. One has to do with the dates the books were written in. The early books were written in the 1920s and 1930s and set in a foreign country where girls didn't often go on to university and got married early. Jo, for instance, had no plans to go to university and didn't plan on working outside the home, and since she can do her writing at home I can see her getting married young. In Len's case the books that cover her romance were written in the 1960s when early marriage wasn't as common as before and Len did have university plans and expected to teach afterwards so I wasn't happy to see her get engaged so young to anybody.

Also I was annoyed that Jo says in Reunion that Len should meet other men before she marries and then, without any indication that Len did so, suddenly reverses herself in Prefects by saying that Len shouldn't play fast and loose with Reg.

As for Reg, the main problem I have with him is how he wants to tie Len down before she leaves for Oxford. Because he's older than her, he's had opportunities to meet other women, but yet he doesn't want Len to have a chance to meet other men. He could have let her know how he felt before she left and she could have done the same to him with the understanding that if they still felt the same way after Len graduated from university (and maybe taught school for a year or two) that they would become engaged. I wonder if this is the way it might have played out if EBD had known she had many years of writing still ahead of her, but I get the feeling that she knew Prefects would be her last book and she wanted to have the triplet's futures settled, thus Len and Reg's engagement.

#37: Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:53 am
—

Róisín wrote:

Len/Reg vs Karen/Edwin-> interesting.

What if they were switched?! I really think Len would have done well with the three small Dodds, being used to managing small children as she was. Karen and Reg - similar outlooks?

Actually, now you mention it I think Karen and Reg would have got on, Karen is referred to as single minded (even to the extent of not being a very good head girl as she was concentrating on Oxford - a bit like Marilyn the only chalet head girl who was a failure?) and in getting the Tranters cottage, I always considered Reg to be determined and ambitious as welll I'd have to ponder on who I would consider to be a good match for Len, no doubt she would have coped admirably with the three Dodds but Edwin would have been far too much of a stuffed shirt for her. I'll chew on this

#38: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:19 am
—

macyrose wrote:

...I don't like it and it's because of a few reasons. One has to do with the dates the books were written in. The early books were written in the 1920s and 1930s and set in a foreign country where girls didn't often go on to university and got married early. Jo, for instance, had no plans to go to university and didn't plan on working outside the home, and since she can do her writing at home I can see her getting married young. In Len's case the books that cover her romance were written in the 1960s when early marriage wasn't as common as before...

The way I see it (and maybe this is why I have no problem with the Len/Reg engagement - I actually like Reg Very Happy

) the later books are technically written in the 1960s, yes, but they are set in a special EBD time period which never really left 1940. Her characters experience the war but that was the last time in the series that she touched off realism (in terms of historical events). So, if I'm reading the later books as being set in this special EBD-time, then there isn't any modern reaction from me to a match that might be considered unsuitable in 1960s eyes. Urgh, that sentence was garbled, but I hope you know what I meant! Laughing

Sorry to bring in another comparison (well, contrast this time) with Antonia Forest Embarassed

but the two authors did exactly the opposite thing with how they modernised their books. AF brought in all kinds of modern influences, fashions, slang, TV and pop music references to her characters that had been born in the 1930s/40s and who were still teenagers when she was slowly writing the books through the period between 1950 and 1980. EBD chose to leave OUT all these touches of modern culture and her girls in the 1960s are still essentially living the same way that their mother did when she was a girl.

#39: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:35 am
—
The whole date/time period thing always seems a bit contradictory to me Rolling Eyes

. If you've got something like Heartbeat (U.K. TV series) where the same characters have been living in the 1960s for 20 years, then although it doesn't really make sense you know where you're up to, if you see what I mean!

With the Chalet School, apart from the references to the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya - and the time when Carola gives her date of birth as 1936 which makes Carola Storms 1951 when in chronological terms of the series it should only be the mid-1940s Laughing

- there isn't really any reference to historical reality other than the wartime period, as Roísín said. Important events like the Abdication and the Suez Crisis are never mentioned. And in the Swiss books the school still seems to be run along very old-fashioned lines, and things like attitudes towards the domestic staff don't change. But then in the later books we do get references to motorboats, and to things like washing machines being used instead of washtubs. Oh, and space travel, of course Rolling Eyes

!

*Hopes that makes some sense.*

#40: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:06 pm
—

Alison H wrote:

The whole date/time period thing always seems a bit contradictory to me Rolling Eyes

And then you have a series like the Simpsons, where the characters don't age but the cultural references do - everytime they do a retrospective episode, the time period is indexed from the date the show is first aired.

#41: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:34 pm
—
Actually, the Chalet School isn't that old-fashioned, by the standards of 1960s boarding-schools - and I don't think the one I was at was particularly old-fashioned; in fact the headmistress went to quite some trouble to help us feel part of the world as it then was. Hampered, I may say, by a certain amount of tradition and backlog from the various Houses.

Re Len/Reg vs Karen/Edwin - I commented on that in my recent crossover story:

Quote:

Reg proved to be rather older than Nicola had expected, "but still younger than Edwin," she thought, privately. Perhaps if you were the eldest girl in a long family you wanted a much older husband.

#42: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:46 pm
—

Mrs Redboots wrote:

Re Len/Reg vs Karen/Edwin - I commented on that in my recent crossover story:

Quote:

Reg proved to be rather older than Nicola had expected, "but still younger than Edwin," she thought, privately. Perhaps if you were the eldest girl in a long family you wanted a much older husband.

I can't wait to read this! I'm waiting til I finish the Marlow series first though Very Happy

#43: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:18 pm
—

Quote:

Everyone is marrying younger these days.

- Beany Malone, Tarry Awhile, Lenora Mattingly Weber, 1962

I'm not so sure that marrying young was limited to the time period of the early CS books. Weber, quoted above, always seems to have some moral to each of her books, and this particular one is spent convincing Beany that envying those who are marrying out of high school or before finishing at the university isn't the way forward. Beany's father sounds very much like Joey on the topic of not marrying before the degree, suggesting to me that both authors were trying to tell their readers to buck a contemporary trend. I know that people point to Jo's warning against "playing fast and loose" as pushing Len into Reg's arms too early, but to me it sounded more like a reminder that, if it was just propinquity rather than genuine interest on her part, she should let him know rather than lead him on.

edited for two boths in one sentence

Last edited by Kathy_S on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

#44: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:17 pm
—
Re marrying young - my father got married on his 21st birthday 8th October 1960. The only reason they didn't get married sooner was because my Dad didn't want to give his father the opportunity of refusing permission. (He was a cantankerous old b*st*rd!)

#45: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:53 am
—

Lesley wrote:

Re marrying young - my father got married on his 21st birthday 8th October 1960. The only reason they didn't get married sooner was because my Dad didn't want to give his father the opportunity of refusing permission. (He was a cantankerous old b*st*rd!)

My Mum was 19 when she married in 1969. In fact she had had her 19th birthday just over a month before the wedding. My Dad was 22. They are still married now even though I cannot now believe that anyone aged 19 could possibly know whether a proposed marriage was a good idea!

#46: Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:28 pm
—
My boyfriend's parents married when they were both 18, in 1982. His mother was five months pregnant with him at the time, which may or may not have been the reason for the marriage. They'd been together since they were 15 and are still together now.

#47: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:49 pm
—
'Having' to get married can work - my cousin was born five months after her parents were married - they celebrated their ruby wedding.

#48: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:38 pm
—
Two of my high school friends married in their very early twenties (one 'had' to get married). At their weddings I remember thinking how lucky they were to have met their life mates so early on in their lives. Sadly, neither marriage lasted (one friend later remarried).

#49: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:19 pm
—
Oh, it can work out. My parents were both 20 when they married and will be celebrating their 40th anniversary next year. And my cousin was engaged at sixteen (I thought she was completely crazy), and married at 21. That was 17 years ago.
On the topic, my only real objection to Len and Reg's relationship is that he was so insistent they get engaged before she went off to Oxford. Although there are a number of references earlier that Len is developing feelings for Reg, we don't see much of them together (at least I don't remember it. It's been a while since I read the last few books.)

#50: reg and len Author: kes, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:53 pm
—
I also have always had the niggling feeling that Reg is a bit of a sulky bully, sulky we know about from when he was a child (and possessive with Phoebe as well) however the bullying bit I think is detectable in all of EBDs male characters, I think that EBD confused masculinity with control somehow also we have the wives regularly depositing their children at school or with houskeepers because they (the husband) couldn't possibllly manage on their own! Jem, Jack, Julian (all J's! Julian from the La Rochelle series) are all attempts on the part of EBD to show a 'good' husband but each of them ultimately controls the 'strong' woman who is their wife - two points spring to mind straight away, Joey having to ask her husband for a cheque even though she earns money through her writing (I don't for one second believe that some women didn't have separate bank accounts or am I being unbelievably naive here?) and Janie wanting to keep her baby Juliet close to her when the baby cried which Julian was going to 'deal with'. Anyone else think there are distinct bully overtones or am I failing to appreciate the difference of attitudes in the past?

#51: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:25 pm
—
I think it was very likely that Jo's earnings went into the common purse. It was probably left over from the time when anything a woman owned automatically became the husband's when she married. And also to the fact that many women of Jo's age didn't have their own income anyway.
When I got married in 1970 I wouldn't have been able to sign a Hire Purchase Agreement (monthly installments) myself, even ifthe money was coming was coming out of my bank account!!!! As a single woman I could have done. that was when jobs were advertised with 2 different pay bands - higher for men.

#52: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:31 pm
—

Pat wrote:

I think it was very likely that Jo's earnings went into the common purse.

Against this argument are scenes like the one in Ruey where they are going to the wedding:

Quote:

“Not on your Nelly! We fly to Paris, anyhow. Mercifully, I had that gorgeous cheque last week from my publishers, bless them, so I’ll go shags with you over the fare for our own crowd, Jack,

This implies, at least to me, that Jo keeps her publishing earnings separate from Jack's income.

#53: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:25 pm
—
I agree that joint accounts were very much the norm, and that things like a wife getting credit on her own were difficult, but also think there's evidence in the books that Jo & Jack at least earmarked some of the funds as being "his" or "hers" or devoted to specific projects. I'm thinking of other examples such as families with inherited funds keeping separate accounts under the Married Women's Property Act, in at least some cases due to pressure from the woman's family. Closer to the reference to book money might be something like the scheme in Belles on Their Toes, where income from speeches didn't go into the main household account but was designated for specific goals. Finally, here's another quote from Eleanor Roosevelt (1949), who would definitely fall into the inherited property group but also earned money from writing and teaching:

Quote:

When I look back on how little we spent in our early married days, I appreciate the changes in the cost of living in the last forty years. My husband and I agreed that we would put an equal amount into the house account, and we lived easily and comfortably if not luxuriously on $600 a month. He paid, in addition, the rent and the children's schooling and doctors' bills. I dressed the children and myself and we went shares on presents to our relatives and friends. We shared some charities and gave individually to others when we were able to and wanted to. In later years, our charities were our individual responsibilities, except in rare cases when we gave jointly.

These arrangements seemed to me entirely fair and equitable, and it was not until after two children were added to our family that we increased the amount we put into the house account. Even then I paid my full share and so had less to spend in other ways.

#54: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:22 am
—
My mom got married in the early 70s. She had credit cards and store cards before marriage, on her own bank account and earnings, but when she married she had to (store policy) change them to my dad's name - not her married name, but transfer the credit to my dad.

As a result, when Dad died, she had 35 year of married life where all the bills were paid on time and the credit was impeccable, but none of it was hers. Their accounts manager had to haggle with the credit card company to get her a card with a minimal limit.

#55: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:48 am
—
A friend was a bank teller at one stage and he had a number of older female customers whose husbands had died and they couldn't access their bank acconts as they were entirely in their husbands names. Once the bank is notified of the person's death, the account is frozen until the estate is sorted out. My friend's manager would tell them not to tell her their husbands had died until they had taken out all the money they would forseeably need. So many of them had no idea how to do the banking as their husband had always done it.

The other thing my friend noticed was when he was initally trained, there were 16 of them. 15 females and 1 male. All 15 females had accounts and credit cards their SLOCs' did not know about. My friend was the only one who didn't. His SLOC knew all his accounts. When he was talking about it with us, one of the first questions he asked his wife was did she have any accounts that he didn't know about? The look on his face was hilarious when she admitted that she did; she still had the bank account she had when she lived in the UK that has about 50p in it.

In regards to Len and Reg's relationship, I think Reg often gets a bit of a raw deal as EBD wasn't at her sparkling best with this relationship as she was with so many others. I don't believe Reg remained as he was at the age of 14, but we really don't get to see an awful lot of him. He always helps out when honestly he doesn't have the connection with the school and he's faithful to the end, not seeking someone else but staying tue to the one he loves. I think Joey must have an inkling of it because she does do such a switch about Len not messing around with Reg's feelings. For Reg it would be absolutely heartbreaking to have fallen in love, stayed true to them, good friends, to become engaged and then have your fiance leave you. It would be a lot kinder for Len to say no from the word go, however Len is only young and heading off to Uni so there are pro's and cons on both sides.

#56: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:26 pm
—
I'm reading Emily of New Moon at the moment (what a gorgeous book btw) and just read the chapter where she meets Dean Priest. He is 36, she is 12, and only a matter of hours after their meeting he has decided that he will 'wait for her'. He doesn't even keep it to himself either - he tells her that he will teach her how to write love scenes and that she is to let nobody else teach her that in the meantime. Admittedly, this goes over her head, but he does say it.

This is a much more extreme version of what happens between Len and Reg (or Karen Marlow and Edwin Dodd in Antonia Forest) and I can't help thinking that the Emily books makes Reg look like a saint in comparison to Dean Laughing

Reg is only 12 when he meets a 4 year old Len, and he is just 24 I think, when he falls in love with a 16 year old. Saying that though, there is definitely not the same spark of connection and mutual understanding that Dean and Emily have.

Not to go OT but what did people think about Dean and Emily, and does this other relationship (which is in many ways similar to Len/Reg) taking place in a GO book cast the Len/Reg sit. in a better light?

#57: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:48 pm
—
That's a bit creepy! In Emma, Emma is 21 and Mr Knightley in his late 30s when they get together, and there's a remark about how he held her in his arms when she was a baby which is all a bit odd; but at least he didn't make any interest he may have developed in her when she was younger known until she was grown up.

It's years since I read the Emily books and I don't remember them very well... did Emily's parents know that a man in his 30s had announced his intention of marrying their 9-year-old daughter?

#58: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:02 pm
—

Alison H wrote:

That's a bit creepy! In Emma, Emma is 21 and Mr Knightley in his late 30s when they get together, and there's a remark about how he held her in his arms when she was a baby which is all a bit odd; but at least he didn't make any interest he may have developed in her when she was younger known until she was grown up.

It's years since I read the Emily books and I don't remember them very well... did Emily's parents know that a man in his 30s had announced his intention of marrying their 9-year-old daughter?

Sorry, I should have explained her background a bit more. Emily's parents are both dead and she is being brought up by her maiden aunts. Her lifestyle and surroundings are pretty much the same as Anne in Anne of Green Gables. She is 12 and Dean is 36, and his intentions are known only to himself and to the reader - he says the bit about 'teaching' to Emily but he doesn't announce what he thinks to anyone else or to the world at large.

Now that my mind is on the track of this (and I think it's a really fascinating subject) there are quite a few examples in books in this vein (though they are all different situations).
Len and Reg here
Karen and Edwin in Antonia Forest
Emily and Dean in LMM
Rilla and Kenneth in LMM (isn't Rilla just 15?)
and I also thought of Henry and Clare in The Time Traveller's Wife but that's a modern book and the situation is very different to those above.

It's always the woman that is younger too, never the man.

Edit: and the Austen example that you said too Alison Very Happy

#59: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:11 pm
—
Funnily enough, I always thought the relationship between Kenneth and Rilla was rather sweet, whereas the Reg-Len relationship doesn't appeal to me at all.

I suppose that traditionally marriages between a young woman and a much older man have been considered acceptable, sometimes even normal - there are numerous royal examples, especially when a widower was looking for a wife with many "childbearing years" ahead of her - and for that matter I think Biblical scholars tend to agree that Joseph was much older than Mary, but for a 36-year-old man to be after a 12-year-old girl seems rather horrible.

IIRC, Jane Eyre is 18 and Mr Rochester 40 when they get married, and Scarlett O'Hara is in her early 20s and Rhett Butler going on 40, but in those cases the women are adults so that's different Very Happy

#60: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:47 pm
—
I think as well it was more sensible for man to be at least thirty when he proposed - as he would have a bit of income sorted out by then and would be able to support his hopefully-fertile young wife Laughing

Edit: in the context of 70 years + ago... when I reread that it sounded like I was keeping my eye out for a thirty year old man with Income Embarassed

#61: Author: Rosalin, Location: Swansea

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:08 pm
—
In the case of Ken & Rilla from LMM, Ken must also be quite young as Rilla's eldest brother Jem was seven when she was born, and when Jem was born Kenneth's parents hadn't yet got married, so he can't be more than 6 years older than her - 21 so I think that one's OK.

From the Elsie thread, her father's friend states his intention of marrying her when she's 9.

#62: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:54 pm
—

Rosalin wrote:

In the case of Ken & Rilla from LMM, Ken must also be quite young as Rilla's eldest brother Jem was seven when she was born, and when Jem was born Kenneth's parents hadn't yet got married, so he can't be more than 6 years older than her - 21 so I think that one's OK.

Also, Kenneth was going off to fight and the odds of his coming back were pretty negligible - if he hadn't made his feelings known to Rilla when he did, he might not have got another chance.

I actually never think Reg & Len's relationship is as creepy as some here find it - most of what appears creepiness is EBD's utter inability to write about relationships, or, possibly, to write about them for children who are, by and large, at the age when they think "Kissing! Yuck!"

#63: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:27 pm
—
Another example would be Daddy-Long-Legs, by Jean Webster, as one might guess from the title. For the text, see Gutenberg.

#64: Author: Lulie, Location: Middlesbrough

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:38 pm
—

Kathy_S wrote:

Another example would be Daddy-Long-Legs, by Jean Webster, as one might guess from the title. For the text, see Gutenberg

I have never thought of DLL as being a much older man. While Judy is wondering who her mysterious benefactor is, I think she sees him as an older man, as most of the governors of the orphanage appear to be older (or this could just be the fact that anybody over 23 is ancient to a 14 year old!) but once she finds out who DLL actually is he comes across as being in his mid-20s to me. This is also the general impression I get in Dear Enemy - that he isn't vastly older than she is, just more experienced in the ways of the world.

Funny how we all see things differently (but a man in his 20s deciding he wants to marry a 9 year old, as in the Elsie books, is plain disgusting!)

#65: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:17 pm
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Anyone see the documentary on ITV tonight? Can't remember what it was called but the subject was underage brides.

#66: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:22 am
—
And there is Laura and Almanzo in the Little House book - he's 8-10 years older than her, and starts gently courting her when she's 15. For some reason that one doesn't creep me out.

I think the key in Len and Reg, creepiness wise, is Reg's intentness on getting Len, regardless - speaking to her father in advance, wanting a commitment before she goes off so no one else can grab her, combined with Len's sheltered upbringing, general youngness in some areas and over contientiousnes sin others, that makes it seem predatory.

Stating marriage intentions to a nine year old strikes me as more like an arranged/politica marriage to me - when she;s old enough, let's ally our families.

#67: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:51 am
—

Quote:

And there is Laura and Almanzo in the Little House book - he's 8-10 years older than her, and starts gently courting her when she's 15. For some reason that one doesn't creep me out.

It's years since I read the Little House books and I'd forgotten about the age difference there. It never bothered me either. Perhaps it's because the story is told from Laura's perspective and we do see the relationship growing from friendship to marriage. And then 15 year old Laura was in a very different time and place to 17 year old Len. She was on the verge of adulthood and adult responsibilities. Len is portrayed as being very much still a child until realising her feelings for Reg and suddenly growing up.

#68: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:49 am
—
There's also the fact that Laura met and interacted with so many other boys and young men during her teenage and formative years. Len really doesn't have those sorts of opportunities. She spends time with her brothers, true, (into which category Roddy and Roger Richardson also really fall) but that's about it. Maybe if we saw her going to the San to visit patients in the holidays, particularly if some of the people were male patients of about her own age, it would seem less icky. *releases plot bunny about Len falling in love with one of Reg's own patients*

#69: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:01 am
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Laura's relationship with Almanzo never bothered me. As KB said, Laura was friendly with various boys - Cap Garland etc - whereas Len hardly ever met any boys other than family members, and also Laura was living away from home and working as a teacher at the age of 15.

Judy (in DLL)'s relationship with Jervie, although to some extent he's in a kind of guardian position towards her, never seemed "icky" to me either, because Judy was grown up by then ... although I think it was a bit odd that he let her write to him about how she felt about him when she didn't know it was him she was writing to ... what a brilliantly convoluted sentence that is Laughing

#70: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:53 am
—

Alison H wrote:

Laura's relationship with Almanzo never bothered me. As KB said, Laura was friendly with various boys - Cap Garland etc - whereas Len hardly ever met any boys other than family members, and also Laura was living away from home and working as a teacher at the age of 15.

It's an interesting comparison. It is true that Laura in many ways had to take on an adult role and responsibilities very young by modern standards - she's 13 when the others have scarlet fever and she pretty much has to run the house. At 15 she's old enough to be left in charge of her younger sisters and the house several hours *walk* from the nearest town, no servants, no oversight. She's educated in a one room school house with an emphasis on rote learning and no extras (music, sports, drama, art, expeditions, languages) and is fully capable by about age thirteen of running the domestic side of household management - cooking, cleaning, gardening, food preservation, laundry, sewing by hand.

In some ways her world is much more restricted than Len's, as her entire childhood has been spent in very isolated environments, without the exposure to foreign culture and arts that Len has from a young age. As far as the practicalities of life go, she's way ahead.

Len does have teh ultra-responsible streak, but it's only been tested in very controlled circumstances, with her mother, father, teachers adn siblings all in close proximity for advice and to bail her out of trouble. She's never operated on her own without an extensive support system, like Laura had to on her first teaching job.

#71: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:23 pm
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I think the point about Laura and Almanzo's courtship is that it is so gentle, almost imperceptible. And one thing that we must consider is that Almanzo lied about his age when he took on the two claims that he farmed. He was barely nineteen when he took the claims, so was possibly not as old as we think.

And Laura's parents knew him, knew what sort of person he was, how he worked, how he farmed, had really seen him grow up, so although Mrs Ingalls was alarmed, Mr. Ingalls wasn't.

And though Laura had always been brought up in remote places, and we might laugh at her education, she had, as others have said, met other young people, so knew how to get on with them.

Len, for all the supposed cosmopolitan nature of her upbringing, has in fact had very little to do with ordinary people and ordinary life. They didn't play with the village children when they lived at Plas Gwyn, and she has very little contact with the local people on the Platz, and as for the expeditions, they see a lot of sights, but don't actually mix with the people in the places they go to.

In terms of real life, Len is far more of a child than Laura ever was. And Laura not only did three terms teaching, she also worked as a needlewoman in town, meeting people and getting on with them. Almanzo might have met Laura at a young age and wanted to get to know her better, but he did not make the mistake of speaking to her parents long before he started to court Laura, but let his reputation speak for him, so that the Ingalls knew that he would not step over the line and cause a scandal.

#72: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:58 pm
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I wish whoever had mentioned Judy in DLL hadn't, as I now have the obvious plot bunny..... oh help. Someone drown it - I haven't time for bunnies right now...

P.S. Did anybody else find that book totally incomprehensible when reading it as a child? I had no idea at all about how the American education system worked, not even realising it was different from ours, and it wasn't until I re-read the books as an adult that I even realised she was supposed to be at university!

#73: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:05 pm
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What's DLL please? ( Embarassed

)

#74: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:09 pm
—

Róisín wrote:

What's DLL please? ( Embarassed

)

Daddy Long Legs by Jean Webster Very Happy

. Very highly recommended but don't bother with the sequel!

#75: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:12 pm
—

Róisín wrote:

What's DLL please? ( Embarassed

)

"Daddy-long-legs", arguably the most famous work by Jean Webster; nothing to do with crane flies, but the letters of a young orphan girl sent to unversity by a mysterious benefactor, to whom she is required to write once a month.

A wonderful book, I've loved it ever since I was a child, together with its sequel, Dear Enemy, and am delighted to find, as a result of looking up these links, that other works of hers are on-line, too. As soon as I've read today's drabbles, I shall go and read or download them!

#76: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:38 pm
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Both DLL and Dear Enemy are both charming. It's worth tracking down a paper copy as teh Gutenberg edition doesn;t have the illustration. Both books are written in the form of letters, in Daddy Long Legs from Judy, a spunky young orphan from a foundling asylum to her mysterious benefactor who is paying for her education.

Dear Enemy is also in letters, this time by a friend of Judy whom Judy has convinced to take over the orphan asylum, and directed to a variety of people.

What about the schooling didn't make sense? I had no problem with it - I picked up on it as a upper class girl's college in the US.

#77: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:31 am
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I always saw Reg talking to Jack and Joey more as a do you mind if I want to see your daughter eventually. More as a if you do mind at least I know well in advanced and know not to get my hopes up or even dream of it rather than staking a claim so no one else can go near her. Reg tends to be helpful in all he does cos a 20 something male doesn't usually help out at a school he has no connection with and yet Reg does with the Sales etc.
And Len did seem to have the kind of relationship with her parents where if she said look if I don't know they wouldn't have pushed her.

#78: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:32 am
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What exactly, does anyone know, was Reg's relationship to Jack and Joey at the end of Rescue? He has no parents, but has an elderly Aunt - Joey and Jack then form some relationship with him so that they can pay for his education - is this just sponsorship, or guardianship, or something else?

#79: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:40 am
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All it says is that his Aunt accepted Jack's offer to pay for Reg's education on condition that he spent most of his holidays with her until he left school, and she would still pay for his clothes and keep when he was at home. There's no mention of any formal or legal change of guardianship that I recall.

#80: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:27 am
—

jennifer wrote:

What about the schooling didn't make sense? I had no problem with it - I picked up on it as a upper class girl's college in the US.

Which is exactly what it was, and couldn't have been more different to an English university education if it had tried with both hands for a year! As I had no idea, back in those days, that American education was, in any way, different to British education, I was totally confused!

#81: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:10 pm
—

jennifer wrote:

What about the schooling didn't make sense? I had no problem with it - I picked up on it as a upper class girl's college in the US.

I also had problems with the schooling. I read the story first when I was about twelve and, to me, 'college' meant secondary school. What you did after that was 'university' (not to mention a very, very long way away from where I was at that point in time! *lol*).

As for Judy and Jervie in DDL (spoilers ahead), I'm rereading it now (see what power the discussion thread has? *g*) and he is fourteen years older than she is. However, I think the distinct difference between Judy and Len is, again, that Judy meets other men (Jimmie McBride, for one) and also that Judy falls in love with DLL as Master Jervie rather than DLL (if that makes sense). We don't know if DLL fell in love with Judy when she was at the Home or not - only that it's clear he begins loving her relatively early on and this only strengthens until he proposes to her (as Master Jervie, not DLL) after her graduation.

Perhaps this was how Superman felt about Lois Lane...?

#82: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:58 pm
—

KB wrote:

jennifer wrote:

What about the schooling didn't make sense? I had no problem with it - I picked up on it as a upper class girl's college in the US.

I guess the confusion goes both ways, as I'm still flabbergasted when someone who's talked about her college turns out to be well under university age.

Jennie wrote:

And Laura's parents knew him, knew what sort of person he was, how he worked, how he farmed, had really seen him grow up...

I think we could say the same about the Maynards and Reg. (leaving out the 'farmed,' of course) Jo & Jack never have a problem with the idea of Reg as a son-in-law, though they do sensibly insist that nothing irrevocable should happen before Len's had her Oxford experience.

#83: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:24 pm
—

Kathy_S wrote:

KB wrote:

jennifer wrote:

What about the schooling didn't make sense? I had no problem with it - I picked up on it as a upper class girl's college in the US.

I guess the confusion goes both ways, as I'm still flabbergasted when someone who's talked about her college turns out to be well under university age.

Me too! And considering I'm so close to Britain geographically, that's a bit silly. Smile

#84: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:53 am
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My problem with 'college' is that where I grew up, a college is a post secondary, non degree granting institute that offers professional development, technical programs, diplomas, and sometimes some university transfer credits. A university is a post-secondary institute that offers degrees (BA, MSc, MBA, PhD, etc) and may either be a graduate institute or primarily undergraduate one.

#85: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:05 am
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I think what Jennifer's describing as a college is what I'd call a "junior college" -- postsecondary, awards only 2-year degrees and certification in various technical programs. At least some credits are transferable from junior colleges to colleges/universities.

College and university are essentially synonymous. Both offer the typical 4 year undergraduate degrees (B.A., B.S.), and may offer graduate degrees (M.A, Ph.D., etc.). An institution with "university" in its name is more likely to emphasize graduate programs. Technically a university is made up of multiple colleges (generally named for their subject areas, e.g. "College of Liberal Arts"), but I don't know to what extent the distinction holds at this point. In the past few decades, the trend has been for junior colleges to develop into four year institutions, and for colleges to relabel themselves universities, but I had never heard anyone say they were going "to university" rather than "to college" until I came in contact with this group.

#86: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:15 am
—

Kathy_S wrote:

I think what Jennifer's describing as a college is what I'd call a "junior college" -- postsecondary, awards only 2-year degrees and certification in various technical programs. At least some credits are transferable from junior colleges to colleges/universities.

I think that's pretty close. The college I did my first year at offered things like forestry, aquaculture, dental hygenist, a chef's program, hair dressing, as well as university transfer courses.

Quote:

, but I had never heard anyone say they were going "to university" rather than "to college" until I came in contact with this group.

I had the reverse experience, and was constantly startled when people would refer to going to college to mean someplace like Caltech.

On the other side, my British friends were surprised when I would refer to 'going to school' to refer to university level education, as they would only use that terminology for pre-university education.

#87: Author: tiernsee, Location: Devon

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:53 pm
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I think one of the main problems with Len and Reg's relationship for me was that I had read Merryn's book "Chalet girls grow up" before I read Jo to the Rescue or the later Swiss Chalet School books.
All the time I was reading Prefects I had this vision of Reg as a potential rapist who runs off with another woman - not what any mother would want for a son-in-law!
I think the discussions about Laura and Almanzo from the Little House books an interesting parallel, but don't forget there is nearly 100 years between the setting of Little House and the Swiss Chalet books. I enjoyed the Laura and Almanzo tale (maybe because it is true - who knows) but I didn't like the Len and Reg situation as much. Saying that I thought Heather Paisley's "New beginnings" was a good book and began to redeem Dr Entwistle slightly!

#88: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:07 pm
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The Reg-Len relationship is one of the moments when one realises that EDB truly can't write romances that progress in any way that her modern audience might consider 'normal'. I quite agree with all the other commenters who get the creeps about Reg's possessiveness and desire to put an 'on hold' sticker on his proto-wife while she's still a schoolgirl, and what looks like unwarranted parental interference, but I'd say we need to read the relationship in terms of the other (quite odd) depictions of romances EBD gives us.

It's presumably partly her period, partly her trying to write only the most respectable romances given her schoolgirl audience, and partly (presumably!) her own lack of experience, but she switches in virtually all cases from 'boys as chums' to engagement and marriage, with virtually no attention at all given to the period of courtship! We are allowed to assume that male suitors see, sexually desire and make a play for the woman of their choice, but it's offtstage, and the girl or woman in question must, according to the EBD rules of feminine respectability and 'niceness', move straight from total innocence ('boys as chums', either embarrassed by/actively hostile to the idea of marriage because it implies 'growing up', or purely concerned with teaching life, if a teacher) to marriage. I think she is nervous of the intervening period of courtship because it implies a dawning sexual knowledge on the part of the girl or woman, which the EBD world is not comfortable with.

So we need to see Len and Reg - the older family friend as suitor of a very innocent schoolgirl - in the context of Jo and Jack (it takes a Nazi purge to make her realise he is a SLOC, as Madge and Jem get thrown together by an accident, as do lots of other couples); the CS/Bettany discomfort with Joan Baker's straightforward appreciation of men as dance partners (not nice, too knowing); the pairing off of CS mistresses and San doctors without the awkward business of explaining how 'nice' women get to know marriagable men; women meeting husbands due to their professional duties - Phoebe and Dr Graves (dodgy in terms of medical ethics), Jessica Thingy's widowed mother getting married to her bank manager, with whom she 'becomes friendly', acc. Joey (in Mary-Lou of the CS). There are no depictions of just 'seeing someone', and EBD quite often removes the fiance a long way off for long periods, removing the problem of how the 'nice' woman or girl behaves when not yet married to her man.

Even the only depiction of a romantic problem that we see - Juliet's troubles with the wimpish Donal because of her background are represented more in terms of Juliet's being upset at losing the friendship of Donal's sister.

Handing Len over to Reg before she goes off to Oxford removes even the suggestion that Joey's eldest will have to actually leave her own family group and try herself alone in the world. I assume EBD intends it as an ideal situation where Len gets her degree and Oxford, yet doesn't then have to worry about arranging the rest of her life afterwards. I also think that allowing the relatively lower-class Reg to marry in to the main CS family is his diploma - he's finally arrived, despite the fact that, while we hear in Jo to the Rescue that Jack has cured him of his tendency to sulk, he still seems to get petulant at not getting his own way...

#89: Author: Angela, Location: Huddersfield

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:14 pm
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Like Tiernsee, although I have read all the Chalet books (not all in hardback), I simply cannot now envisage Reg as turning out anything other than in CGGU.

When Len & Reg marry in New Beginnings, I think to myself don't do it Len, it's all going to end badly. Crying or Very sad

#90: Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:34 pm
—

tiernsee wrote:

I think one of the main problems with Len and Reg's relationship for me was that I had read Merryn's book "Chalet girls grow up" before I read Jo to the Rescue or the later Swiss Chalet School books.
All the time I was reading Prefects I had this vision of Reg as a potential rapist who runs off with another woman - not what any mother would want for a son-in-law!

I'm thankful to say that it's many years since I tried to read CGGU and I don't remember any of the details - in fact, I'm not sure I even managed to finish it because I hated it so much. I like EBD's world as she created it; I don't particularly want realism (twisted?) injected into it!

I agree with other comments that EBD doesn't do romance well. The relationship that develops between Len and Reg doesn't do anything for me, not because I have qualms about it (or him) but because I don't really see Reg as a real person - he's too much of a cardboard character - and nor do I see Len getting to know him to the point where she could possibly know she wants to spend her life with him.

#91: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:45 pm
—

Travellers Joy wrote:

I agree with other comments that EBD doesn't do romance well. The relationship that develops between Len and Reg doesn't do anything for me, not because I have qualms about it (or him) but because I don't really see Reg as a real person - he's too much of a cardboard character - and nor do I see Len getting to know him to the point where she could possibly know she wants to spend her life with him.

The trouble is that most of it happens off-stage, as it were. We see Len as a schoolgirl - a prefect and Head Girl, granted, but still in school uniform. Reg, however, would have known her in the holidays, and we see very little of her then. And, indeed, we don't see that much of Reg. But I do get the impression that it's very mutual - Len isn't totally sure, but she is well aware that she is attracted to him!

#92: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:42 pm
—
But it's interesting, isn't it, that all romances are 'offstage' in the CS series? Len and Reg's isn't unusual in that. From a writer who goes to endless lengths to show us how to make apple tart/rechauffee/doll's house furniture, do camp laundry/make a history date chart/make a bed the Matey way/produce dozes of Christmas plays, what she omits is significant...

#93: Author: tiernsee, Location: Devon

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:52 pm
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Isn't one of the rules of writing, to write what you know about? If EBD had no direct experience of romance/love, maybe she did not feel able to express it well in writing so preferred to have it occurring off-stage.

Saying that she probably wasn't an expert doll's house builder either but seems able to write pleny on this subject!

#94: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:58 pm
—
We do get a bit of "romance" in the La Rochelle books, though.

#95: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:28 pm
—
Alison H and Tiernsee - I haven't read the La Rochelle books - how is the romance conveyed? Do we actually get a depiction of growing interest and declarations of love? Or is it more the Undescribed Lurch from Friendship? (I do appreciate also that dwelling on romance might have seemed inappropriate for a girls' series of her day...)

Re. writing what you know - I always regard this dictum with a certain amount of scepticism, given that I am currently working on a novel set in early 20th century bohemian circles! I take your point, though, but I also feel that there were plenty of romantic archetypes available to EBD, and given that you could read lots of the CS as pure wish fulfilment (happy families, successful school, unlike her own etc), this is a kind of speculation/imaginative reconstruction she was clearly not prepared to engage in.

#96: Author: meerium, Location: belfast, northern ireland

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:56 pm
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Was Dorita Fairlie Bruce married? I've just re-read 'Dimsie Grows Up' (finished it this morning, making me slightly late for work. Some things never change!!), and, while Dimsie's romance is maybe a bit clicheed, certainly I think it's a good example of how to write a relationship moving from friendship to romantic love without it feeling completely unrealistic.

I have to say, I do love the final few chapters of Dimsie Grows Up, where she shows Peter Jean's poem and says when she thinks she's met someone she share the kind of love with that the poem talks about, then she'll get married; and he feels all intimidated, but more in love than ever. And then the lovely ephiphany she has at the end and runs off to tell him she's going to marry him.

*end of soppiness!*

#97: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:51 pm
—
Tiernsee wrote:

Quote:

Isn't one of the rules of writing, to write what you know about? If EBD had no direct experience of romance/love, maybe she did not feel able to express it well in writing so preferred to have it occurring off-stage.

Even someone with first hand experience of romance might not be able write about it convincingly. EBD generally stuck with what worked and what she knew she did well.

I think one also has to consider EBD's intended readers - girls aged up to about 14/15. They were probably more interested in the minutiae of school life than romantic relationships. In such a long running series EBD had to marry off her characters, or otherwise dispose of them, as they reached adulthood, but the main focus of the CS series is the lives of teenage girls at boarding school. A chapter spend describing the courtship and marriage of an Old Girl is a chapter not spent describing events at school.

#98: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:11 pm
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It's interesting. I agree that EBD seems to skip over the shole coutship thing in the CS books whereas the La Rochelles do have a little bit in them. But it's still more of a married life thing than a courtship thing, even in the La Rochelles. People still seem to get engaged without us really seeing their engagment - we are more likely to see letters being exchanged and blushes than the actual content of the letters.

#99: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:18 am
—

Sunglass wrote: Alison H and Tiernsee - I haven't read the La Rochelle books - how is the romance conveyed? Do we actually get a depiction of growing interest and declarations of love? Or is it more the Undescribed Lurch from Friendship? (I do appreciate also that dwelling on romance might have seemed inappropriate for a girls' series of her day...)

I thought the romance is portrayed well. EBD doesn't go into a lot of detail with many of them but I could pick out who would marry whom easily enough, 1 because they would be close friends (re: Con Atherton and Rex Willoughby) and 2 the relationship would be described with the two off walking and the reaction of the characters when the person they liked came into the scene (re: Francesca Atherton and Mr Eltringham). EBD also has a few conversations between the romantic pair and we do see Elizabeth and Paul Ozanne and Beth and Peter Chester in snippets. I think the best described is Julian and Janie Lucy and I think you can see the friendship develop into something deeper. Probably because you see it over a number of books not just one. It felt right and EBD did write it well, better than Jack and Joey and certainly better than Reg and Len, even though I don't have a problem with those two ending up together

#100: Author: Angela, Location: Huddersfield

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:07 pm
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One of the 'Northern Saints' fell in love with a photo of Maidie Willoughby in Janie of La Rochelle - she was happy to reciprocate once they met.

Whilst I quite like JOLR, (very good comfort reading and after a foul week at work, I might turn back to EBD this weekend) and remember it as one of the few non Chalet EBDS I read as a youngster in the early 60s there are one or two more cringeworthy 'romantic' incidents in this book.

For example the one where Janie couldn't trust Julian to even pour himself a cup of coffee at breakfast - she said she'd have to get up herself & wait on him, even though it was exceptionally early.

Also in reply to an ealier poster, DFB wasn't married

#101: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:40 am
—

Angela wrote: For example the one where Janie couldn't trust Julian to even pour himself a cup of coffee at breakfast - she said she'd have to get up herself & wait on him, even though it was exceptionally early.

If you call 7.30 early for breakfast!! I thought it was cos they were just married and she wanted to see her husband before he left for a very long day at work. She wasn't going to be seeing him until late in the evening, so I could relate to that myself

#102: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:15 pm
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And she's still at the stage where all her things are new and she's a very new housewife. She can be excused for being a bit fussy about things like spills on the tablecloth at that stage of her married life.

#103: Author: Tor, Location: London

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:02 pm
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out of interest, does anyone know when the Anne books became considered as solely young girl's stories? I ask because I *think* I read or saw somewhere early dust covers which seemed to aim Anne of GG at older audiences, and that it was popular with adults as well in it's early days...

the pertinence of this to this discussion is that LM Montgomery has no such qualms about showing developing romances! And it seems more than obvious that EBD *cough* borrowed/took tips from LMM, and that The Chalet Girls were expected to know all about the books as they acted out the slate scene in a saturday entertainment (didn't they?).

So.... If it was ok for LMM to write this way for young girls, then I don't think the 'intended audience' argument has as much weight as the EBD was just a bit rubbish at romance. Or maybe the Anne books, beyond the first, were not considered suitable reading for the young girls of the 60's???? I am thinking in particular of Anne of the Island and Anne of Windy Willows/Poplars. And even more particularly of all the letters that tapered off with the promise of Anne having just the right tip of pen. That always made me sigh when I was a young girl (and still does Embarassed

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