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#1: Book: The Princess of the Chalet School Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:06 pm
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There is a synopsis here and a review of the dustwrappers and publishing history here. Elisaveta has always wanted to go to boarding school and finally gets her chance in this book. However she is a crown princess with a crazy powerhungry cousin, so the location of the school is kept secret at first. Matron Webb is the other new girl in this book - she causes trouble in the school and eventually the SSM is organised in protest. This is also the book where the Guides begin in the Chalet School. The major incident is Joey's rescue of Veta after she is kidnapped by Cosimo. The book ends with Madge and Jem's marriage.

So! What are your feelings on this, EBD's third original HB in the series? What do you think of the friendship that exists between Joey and Veta - is the age difference an issue? What about the new passion for Guides - did you think that EBD was just using the kidnapping and the royal storyline as a example of how exellent and useful an institution Guides were/are? Juliet is headgirl in this book - how does she compare with the Juliet we were given by Caroline? How does Juliet compare with Gisela for that matter? Was Matron Webb really a terrible person - is there no justification for her actions at all? Is Cosimo a convincing villain?

I'm sure there are lots more questions that can be asked of this book and that I haven't touched on. Please feel free to post all your burning opinions about this book Very Happy

#2: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:16 pm
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In the Newsletters, I think EBD says that Matron Webb is the one character who she based on a real person - and that she sent her a copy of the book when it was published.

#3: Author: Bee, Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:09 pm
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LizB wrote:

In the Newsletters, I think EBD says that Matron Webb is the one character who she based on a real person - and that she sent her a copy of the book when it was published.

Oh, I so hope that was ture - I like the idea of EBD being spiteful and vengeful! Very Happy

As for Princess... I think it had a completely ludicrous plot (a princess at the CS? And an insane cousin coming to kidnap Elisaveta??? And Joey running off and actually saving the day....), but it's easy to overlook because Veta is so likeable. I love her and Jo's friendship. It's a relief to see Jo have this with another girl, rather than Simone's one-sided adoration. The age difference doesn't seem to matter at all - I like that Veta fits in so well with Margia and Evvy and co as well, so she makes her own set of friends, and still is close with Jo. They actually seem like sisters! It's also fun to see her so taken by everything with school... she's quite the proper schoolgirl! Laughing

I would have liked to see her remain at the school for the later books - I quite lieterally miss her!!! (She was also good at putting Jo in her place.)

Juliet's depiction in here ties in well with Caroline's Juliet, so i dont' think I have much to add there. And I can't really comment on Guides - I was never one myself, so in all honesty I can't relate at all. But I do think nice to see the school become so involved in something together.

And Matron Webb... I absolutely loved her! I actually wished she'd lasted longer. Obviously she was a despicable character, but I found the Middles' pranks hugely amsuing (the suggestion to copy Matron Webb's voice was legendary!). And it was such a breath of fresh air to see someone in authority opposing the school. It would have been interesting to see her questioning more of the Chalet School's ways... but I thought her treatment of Robin as the last straw was fair enough. But I don't see why Madge insisted she call her "Madame" as the girls did - everyone did it because they were so fond of her, so why make it a rule?? I didn't understand Madge's reasoning there. Anyway, as you can see, she's one of my favourites Very Happy

; between her and Veta, I'd say this book contains two of the most successful "new girls"!

I also liked the wedding between Jem and Madge. It was sweet, innocent and lovely, sort of the way I picture Madge. Plus, it was for a children's book! And although I wish Madge had lasted longer as headmistress, I liked Jem at this point, and was quite happy for them to be married. It was also interesting to see Joey reacting to the girls' complaints of losing Madame, and I liked Juliet pointing out it was harder for JO than them.

Just a quick gripe- it seems so obvious that EBD was setting up Juliet for Head Girl, so why not write a book about it herself? (Thanks Caroline - I love yours... but it does seem strange she didn't do it.)

#4: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:32 pm
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I really do like Elisaveta as a character and am sorry that we don't see more of her, but I don't think that featuring fictional countries/royalty in "realistic" books works very well - same with Slavonia in the Sadlers Wells books. And don't even get me started on how Belsornia, which originally seems to be located round about where Slovenia is in that it borders on Austria, it's close to Italy and the main religion is Catholicism rather than Orthodoxy, later ends up sharing a border with Turkey ...

I do genuinely like this book, but I find some of it very OTT. The Guiding references get a bit much, Matron Webb is a bit too evil (locking Robin in like that!), and whilst I can understand Joey (in Rivals) trying to rescue a girl who was drowning before her eyes I can't understand her chasing after a man whom she knew was dangerous rather than alerting an adult/the authorities.

I like Juliet as Head Girl and again wish we saw more of her, and I love Madge and Jem's wedding which is very sweet Very Happy

#5: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:56 pm
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The plot line is definitely over the top - insane royal cousins, kidnappings and dramatic rescues, overturning Salic Law, evil Matron locking Robin in a closet, but somehow it doesn't grate the way later books, like Redheads, do.

Part of it is Elisaveta. She's a lovely main character in a natural seeming way. I don't find the age difference between her and Joey odd, as in many ways Joey is young for her age, while Elisaveta is mature in others. The pranks are funny, particularly the one with the voice. I would have loved to see her grow into a senior at the school, and suspect she'd have been a natural rival for supremacy with Joey, between her natural charm and beauty and her rank.

I don't like Madge's speech to Joey about how it's good to have bad things happen occasionally. My response would be to go and bang my head against the wall - if I give my self a concussion we can test ourselves against adversity and still get rid of that idiot woman. I also find disliking someone because they have a grating voice to be rather shallow, although I recognise that it's meant to emphasize Madge's gentility and Matron's baseness.

#6: Author: Lorna, Location: Birmingham, England

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:12 pm
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I recently read this for the first time and I did really enjoy it. Matron was pure evil and I was glad to see the back of her.

I too felt that the Guiding references were a little over the top in places (let's face it the only reason Joey was able to save Veta was because she was a Guide!)But maybe that is just because we are reading it in a completely different time and context to that in which it was written ?

Parts of the kidnap plot were, as has been said, a little ludicrous ... largely because it seems hard to imagine that Joey could have saved the day so easily - one teenager against grown men? However I still enjoyed the story and just accept these sorts of details as being very CS.

#7: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:12 pm
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Ooh, I know what I forgot to say!

Joey and Elisaveta never seem that friendly in this book, which is to be expected as they are in different forms and when, one of you is 12 and one 14, a 2 year age gap is quite a lot. However, later on we get Elisaveta referring to Joey as her best friend, asking her to be her chief bridesmaid and even naming José after her, whereas Joey is much closer to a lot of other people and seems to forget about Elisaveta most of the time. That's understandable as Joey leads a normal-ish kind of life with lots of other people around her, whereas Elisaveta goes back to Firarto and is presumably quite lonely there, but I always find it very sad from Veta's viewpoint Crying or Very sad

.

In Genius/Fete I got the impression that EBD was thinking of moving the Helstons to the Gornetz Platz - Elisaveta has a very moving conversation with Jack in which she talks about the problems of bringing her children up without her late husband, and Jack is really sweet to her - but it never happens. Sorry, that's slightly OT, but I always feel that Elisaveta gets a raw deal - I don't know why EBD had to make Raphael have a fatal accident.

#8: Author: Chalet_Girl, Location: London, UK

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:07 pm
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When I read Princess for the first time as a young teenager I don’t remember being bothered by a far-fetched plot. So many kids’ adventure books are just as mad, and I’d read so much Enid Blyton by then that I think I was immune or at least capable of suspending disbelief. Which I guess is a compliment to EBD. As for having a princess at the school, I thought it was pretty cool; by then wouldn’t William and Harry have been at prep school, so it made sense to me that Veta should go to school.

I don’t think it occurred to me that the CS wasn’t that well-established at that point. Anyway, Veta was only a girl; an academic education wouldn’t have been seen as too important for her. (*ducks angrily-hurled missiles*) I thought it really cool that they should have princess and a huge honour for the school. I liked Elisaveta, she seeme d nice jolly

I can’t believe that I hadn’t tired of Joey running off after people but I don’t think I had. But then there’s so much I hadn’t though before joining the CBB!

In response to a couple of jennifer’s points: I don’t mind Madge’s adversity speech to Joey. I rather like the pious nature of those sorts of things and they have helped me personally. There are times when you need to remember that everyone has to go through some sort of crap it helps to remember you’re not the only one; it happens to capable people like Madge too and you can come through it.

The loud voice issue: I have to confess to being very annoyed by a certain person I know with a loud voice and it does colour my perception of them. (It’s no one here by the way!) If I didn’t like that person (a la Matron Webb) I would find it even more annoying so her loud voice would probably have grated horrible on me. I must be shallow!

#9: Author: brie, Location: Glasgow, aka the land of boredom

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:10 pm
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Okay so its unrealistic. But it is just one of my favourite books. I love Elisaveta. She's so real. Joey is nice here too, and the pranks are just hilarious, because they are so original.

#10: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:28 pm
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This is one of my favourites. The school is still small enough to have that family feel, and it's a very nice summer term book.

The storyline is improbable, but the Schoolgirl Princess was quite a popular plot at the time, so EBD wasn't doing anything very different from many of her contemporaries. Maybe the idea was suggested to her?

I really like Elisaveta, and the way she settled down so easily at the school and didn't make any of the usual mistakes of the girl not accustomed to school life or other girls. I wish she'd stayed longer at the school, but I suppose once the Cosimo story was finished, she'd have become just another Middle.

The School had been amazingly successful, sooner or later something had to go wrong. Matron Webb herself was perhaps a bit OTT, but she did provide the oportunity for some quite original pranks.

I can see why Madge was sensitive on the issue of being called 'Madame'. She was young and inexperienced and didn't have the professional qualifications that Miss Wilson et al had. Also, while it's correct and respectful to address and refer to Mdlle Lepattre simply as 'Mademoiselle', it wouldn't be right to address Madge just as 'Miss', but it might not have been easy to explain that to non-English girls.

#11: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:59 pm
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I always enjoyed this one though I think EBD shouldn't have gone along with the princess from Ruritania idea, as so far the CS stories had been so original. I wonder why she skipped a whole year? I like the way the girls seem relatively free to wander about in their free time too, so much less claustrophobic than the garden at the Gornetz Platz. The age difference to me seemed a little odd why was it there? Couldn't Veta have been fourteen too? Yes a nasty Matron to be repeated fairly soon and quite a while before EBD could bring herself to criticise a teacher (Miss Bubb!) I think Madge could have been called Miss Bettany without having a hissy fit about it. Miss Annersley could.

#12: Author: Pado, Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:53 pm
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Best. Book. Ever.

Period.

#13: Author: dorian, Location: Dublin

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:05 pm
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Bee wrote:

But I don't see why Madge insisted she call her "Madame" as the girls did - everyone did it because they were so fond of her, so why make it a rule?? I didn't understand Madge's reasoning there.

Because Madge needed to assert her authority. Matron Webb was challenging that authority, and Madge needed to firmly assert it or lose it. Enforcing the use of the title "Madame" was a way to do that.

Don't forget that Madge was quite young, completely inexperienced, and living in a world where "nice girls" didn't go off and randomly start schools (especially in a foreign country (and a foreign country where women were even more circumscribed than her own)). She needed to cling tooth and nail to her authority, otherwise it would have been taken from her (by the various men around, by Matron Webb, by anyone who could).

I think she did a very good job of holding on to her authority (here and elsewhere) without ever losing her dignity.

#14: Author: Lisa A., Location: North Yorkshire

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:28 pm
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I like this one - it is still full of the energy of the first book and so many of the characters as well as Veta are vibrant and funny. The slightly bonkers plot doesn't seem to matter, but turns it into a very jolly girls' adventure story.

I thought the Prince's decision to choose the CS was extremely casual, however: a school in another country, recommended by a friend of a friend. I presume someone did a bit more investigation before she actually went.

I like the bit where Veta is initiated into the SSM and the girls are trying to be ceremonial but fall out of it in amazement, then recall themselves and try to carry on, battling with their natural cheeky characters to be formal. I noticed that when Madge appeared on the scene she failed to notice Margia sitting on a cubicle curtain wearing a mask and a wreath of roses. Perhaps she had whipped them off in time.

#15: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:28 am
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Mel wrote:

I like the way the girls seem relatively free to wander about in their free time too, so much less claustrophobic than the garden at the Gornetz Platz.

I like this about the Tyrol books. The girls have so much more freedom than they do in Switzerland - older girls can go to the hotel to listen to the Gipsy bands, they can wander the grounds near the school and go down to the lake, they can go to the woods or hang out in the fields, and the older girls can go into the village unsupervised to run errands.

There are boundaries about where they can go without permission, but within those boundaries they are quite free.

By the Swiss years the school is about five times larger than it is now, and we don't see anyone other than prefects engaging in unregimented time outside. Break time is in the garden, walks are supervised, and there doesn't seem to be a nearby village for buying stamps and postcards, stopping at the hotel, or getting your watch fixed.

#16: Author: Laura V, Location: Merseyside

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:17 am
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I have to say that this is one of my least favourite CS books Shocked

(sorry!)
I don't like the plot or the lack of action set in school. Elisaveta seems nice but I think EBD didn't develop her character enough for me to fully decide if she's on my like or dislike list.
Having said that, I do like the SSM scenes and also Madge's wedding; but I would never choose to read this book as a stand alone story, only as part of a series read through.

#17: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:42 am
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Just out of curiosity (I do like the book) how much of the book was edited when it was republished again?

#18: Author: Chalet_Girl, Location: London, UK

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:45 am
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According to FOCS it's a “Minor Frequent Cuts” book.
http://www.rockterrace.demon.co.uk/FOCS/abridg.html
It’s interesting, this book really seems to divide people.

#19: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:47 am
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Fiona Mc wrote:

Just out of curiosity (I do like the book) how much of the book was edited when it was republished again?

It's described as having "minor frequent cuts". What those cuts are haven't been documented by the FOCS webpage though (they have done so for others of the HBs/PBs comparisons).

Edit: Katherine, snap! Laughing

#20: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:42 am
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I actually did a HB v Pb comparison for the FOCS website for Princess - for some reason, it never actually made it into "print" as it were. Let's see if I can find it.... Yep - still got it. I start by saying:

Quote:

I compared my 1939 Chambers hardback edition with a 1995 2-in-1 Collins paperback (5th style). The HB had 304 pages compared to 159 in the PB, with both having 25 chapters. This book was originally published in paperback form in 1968 (1st style) and may have been one of the titles originally abridged by EBD herself.

It's a bit long to post on here, unfortunately (unless a mod would like to tell me otherwise!) - 7 pages / 4000 words. But I could email it if anyone wanted to read it particularly.

Regarding the book itself, I've always had a bit of a soft spot for it, although it's not a top fave. It's a bit of a departure for EBD - the Ruritanian thing, so much focus on the central story and relatively little background stuff going on. I wonder if EBD was still finding her way with the CS at this point, and wanting to try new things. The fact this is a Ruritanian story makes me wonder if that was a genre she wanted to try anyway, and then thought - oh, I'll use those characters (i.e. the CS ones).

Regarding the randomness of Veta (who I love, BTW) coming to the CS, I think the Crown Prince does send an aide to visit the school and check it out... Yep:

Quote:

‘I am going to send Signor Francesco to the Tiern See, where there is a good school, kept by an English lady, and he will make all arrangements for you to go there after Easter.

Which rather contradicts the next chapter when Madge just gets a letter saying can she accept a Princess as a pupil.... Rolling Eyes

I like Veta and Joey's friendship in this book - it's very natural. I'm not so keen on it in HMcC's Visitors - the way Joey picks Veta over other friends there seems a little out of keeping with Princess and Camp. But here, becuase the focus is on Veta so much, we are really seeing how she interacts with the other girls - Joey, then Grizel, then the Middles etc. It's all Veta's POV.

I love the saga of Matron Webb, and like the fact that EBD adds a little natural discord into what might be seen after two books as becoming rather an unnaturally and perfectly happy group of girls and staff. Nice to see how they cope by banding together when their idyll is threatened... It always shocks me when she is sacked and EBD tells us only two weeks of term have passed - it seems ages longer than that - we're almost half way through the book at this point!

#21: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:52 am
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I wonder what EBD thought of the coincidence when years later after writing this book and starting her own school, she took in two little princesses as pupils. I have got the dates right there, haven't I? In that the book came first.

#22: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:30 am
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Spree to say that Caroline's HB/PB comparison for FOCS is now readable here.

#23: Author: Cath V-P, Location: Newcastle NSW

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:59 am
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This was always a particular favourite of mine - it seems to have a lovely almost sunlit and celebratory quality about it in places - the garden party, the wedding, Madge's birthday, the honouring of Joey in Firarto...in fact for a school story there doesn't seem to be that much school at all!

And it was published in 1927, as were Seven Scamps and Thrilling Term at Janeways. So in one year, there was a school story proper set at a new and completely different school back in the UK, complete with buried treasure and a secret passsage, a family story, and a Ruritanian story. And the CS story is only her third of the series, while the La Rochelle is the fourth to use that set of associated characters and Janeways might have suggested possibilities.

#24: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:58 pm
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One thing in the story always seems impossible to me - how does Madge, a slightly built woman, manage to carry Joey nearly all the way back to school after the Elisaveta adventure? Granted Jo isn't yet as tall as she is going to be, but even so....

#25: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:50 pm
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Just a point about the treatment of the Robin, who is not delicate at this stage. Obviously she is upset at being shaken and locked in, but a year or so later, such treatment would have brought on galloping consumption.
Also I find myself poker-faced as Madge ' lay back on her pillows and laughed till her sides ached.' This is because Jo and Robin bought her spoons and a pudding basin for her birthday.

#26: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:56 pm
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Quote:

But I don't see why Madge insisted she call her "Madame" as the girls did - everyone did it because they were so fond of her, so why make it a rule?? I didn't understand Madge's reasoning there.

Me neither, to be honest. Since Madge wasn’t married, I would have thought that it would have been ‘Mademoiselle’ if the French form had to be used – which would have been kind of odd in the first place, given that the Chalet School was founded as an English school. There’s nothing inappropriate or disrespectful about Miss Bettany and it seems pretty silly to make a big deal over something fairly trivial with a staff member with whom she’s already finding it difficult to get along with. Save it for the big stuff.

Quote:

I thought the Prince's decision to choose the CS was extremely casual, however: a school in another country, recommended by a friend of a friend. I presume someone did a bit more investigation before she actually went.

I’m actually very surprised that Madge had to write and ask that a bodyguard be sent out for Elisaveta. A princess, even one who is not actually in line for the throne, is often a very recognizable person. Sending her as an average school girl with no fuss was a nice idea in theory but all it would take is one Belsornian holidaying in the Tyrol to blow her cover. You can’t ask me to believe that none of the girls, particularly the Juniors, mentioned having a princess in school to letters home or to friends. Throw in the insane cousin and I would have thought that sending a couple of bodyguards with her would be just common sense.

Quote:

Just a point about the treatment of the Robin, who is not delicate at this stage. Obviously she is upset at being shaken and locked in, but a year or so later, such treatment would have brought on galloping consumption.

Yes, stress will do that to you. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, I think that Robin's "delicacy" didn't make much sense. Even if her mother wasn't strong, with all the care and attention given to Robin's health I would be astounded if a germ dared to come near her.

In fact, I would wonder if the precautions taken with her health did more harm than good. If she's going to coddled and shielded and have doctors focusing on strengthening her to fight a disease she might get one day, I wouldn't have been surprised if she'd wound up neurotic.

#27: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:11 pm
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EBD makes various remarks about Robin being "utterly unspoilt", and the teenage Robin we see in the wartime books is a really nice girl, but it's a wonder she turned out so well! It's not the worrying about her health that gets me so much as the way Joey insists on calling her "Baby". At one point, someone makes a remark about Robin growing up, and Joey says something like "She'll always be my baby, though".

Joey's behaviour regarding Robin always seems really OTT to me - being rude to Grizel, who pleasantly suggests a girly chat (in And Jo?), because she's so keen to see Robin; taking a dislike to Joyce Linton because Joyce doesn't kiss Robin (a complete stranger to her) goodnight; worrying that Robin might get measles in Jo Returns but not seeming to care that her young nieces and nephews are ill, etc Confused

#28: Author: Chalet_Girl, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:47 pm
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Holly wrote:

Quote:

But I don't see why Madge insisted she call her "Madame" as the girls did - everyone did it because they were so fond of her, so why make it a rule?? I didn't understand Madge's reasoning there.

It does seem a bit odd as you would think 'Mademoiselle' would be more logical. But them we already had someone with that title. Didn't Gisela and Co call Madge Madame and then it stuck? I can see that it was about authority: don't unmarried women in Germany get referred to as Frau (Mrs) rather then (Fraulein). So it's a sort of courtesy title.
If I'm right about Gisela quite why German-speaking girls would call an English person Madame is another matter!

#29: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:06 pm
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Alison H wrote:

EBD makes various remarks about Robin being "utterly unspoilt", and the teenage Robin we see in the wartime books is a really nice girl, but it's a wonder she turned out so well! It's not the worrying about her health that gets me so much as the way Joey insists on calling her "Baby". At one point, someone makes a remark about Robin growing up, and Joey says something like "She'll always be my baby, though".

Joey's behaviour regarding Robin always seems really OTT to me - being rude to Grizel, who pleasantly suggests a girly chat (in And Jo?), because she's so keen to see Robin; taking a dislike to Joyce Linton because Joyce doesn't kiss Robin (a complete stranger to her) goodnight; worrying that Robin might get measles in Jo Returns but not seeming to care that her young nieces and nephews are ill, etc Confused

Yes, the way Robin was infantalized was pretty worrying. I would say that Joey was the worst culprit but Madge should really have stepped in. I could understand Robin being babied when she was six and the youngest in the school but when it got to the point that she was about ten and still getting dressed by someone else, it's pretty off.

In example like the ones you listed, especially with Joyce, I'd have concerns that Joey's attachment to Robin was venturing into obsessive territory.

#30: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:08 pm
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Katherine wrote:

Holly wrote:

Quote:

But I don't see why Madge insisted she call her "Madame" as the girls did - everyone did it because they were so fond of her, so why make it a rule?? I didn't understand Madge's reasoning there.

I seem to remember Gisela first speaking of Madge as Fraulein Bettany before correcting herself and using Miss.

When was Madge first addressed as Madame?

#31: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:41 am
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Holly wrote:

When was Madge first addressed as Madame?

It's in the very first book, and it's in a very official scene - the one where Grizel is summoned to the Prefects. It makes me think that, initially, 'Miss Bettany' was the more casual title, perhaps to be used when Madge was teaching and in conversation, and that 'Madame' was the very official title, to be used in serious situations.

Quote:

‘Where are you? In the Prefects’ room? Very well, then! I will come back with you, and she shall come and apologise for her rudeness to you. I am sorry this has occurred, Gisela.’
‘I, too, am sorry,’ replied Gisela. ‘I wish it had not been necessary to trouble you with it, Madame.’
‘You were quite right to report it,’ returned her headmistress. ‘We cannot have this sort of thing occurring. Will you find a Junior, Bette, and send her for Grizel? Then I will follow you upstairs.’

However, by later in the book it is clear that the term 'Madame' has come into more general usage among the girls.

Quote:

‘Joey, have you yet learned what it is Madame desires?’ inquired Gisela presently, as the train puffed its way importantly down the mountain-side.

Quote:

‘A band! A band!’ cried Margia, who had shot ahead of the others. ‘Oh, Madame, a band—all violins and flutes and things!’

Quote:

Marie was scurrying round getting breakfast ready. She stopped to offer her good wishes together with a bouquet of Alpen roses, which she had gathered the evening before.
‘Für Madame,’ she said shyly.
Marie nodded and smiled as she replied in her own language, ‘Madame is so good! I hope it will be a pleasant day for Madame’s feast-day.’

And finally even Joey uses it:

Quote:

‘Hurry up! Hurry up!’ exclaimed Joey, dancing with impatience. ‘I’ve got the tray from Marie, and Mademoiselle is keeping Madame talking in the dining-room till we’re ready! Here you are! Now buck up!’

#32: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:22 am
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Katherine wrote:

In response to a couple of jennifer’s points: I don’t mind Madge’s adversity speech to Joey. I rather like the pious nature of those sorts of things and they have helped me personally. There are times when you need to remember that everyone has to go through some sort of crap it helps to remember you’re not the only one; it happens to capable people like Madge too and you can come through it.

I agree. Another way of looking at it is that we can't lead an entirely stress-free life (as much as we'd all like to).

#33: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:54 am
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If nothing else, it was an easy way for Joey to turn "Madge" into her school title if she forgot. Wink

#34: Author: Joan the Dwarf, Location: Er, where am I?

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:58 am
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Holly wrote:

In example like the ones you listed, especially with Joyce, I'd have concerns that Joey's attachment to Robin was venturing into obsessive territory.

I don't have the quote on me, but doesn't Madge tell Joey firmly that she's being silly/obsessive on that occasion?

#35: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:53 am
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Joan the Dwarf wrote:

Holly wrote:

In example like the ones you listed, especially with Joyce, I'd have concerns that Joey's attachment to Robin was venturing into obsessive territory.

I don't have the quote on me, but doesn't Madge tell Joey firmly that she's being silly/obsessive on that occasion?

Yes, something to the effect of that Joey mustn't dislike people because they don't instantly fall down before the Robin. Something like that anyway.

#36: Author: Chalet_Girl, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:01 pm
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Kate wrote:

If nothing else, it was an easy way for Joey to turn "Madge" into her school title if she forgot. Wink

Yes, she does that quite a lot - and turns Mad... into 'my sister'!

#37: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:24 pm
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Joan the Dwarf wrote:

I don't have the quote on me, but doesn't Madge tell Joey firmly that she's being silly/obsessive on that occasion?

That she mustn't dislike people for not instantly falling in love with the Robin of something along those lines.

#38: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:29 pm
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KB wrote:

Thanks. I wonder who started it, Madge herself or one or more of the girls. Since they had so few French girls at the beginning, I would have thought that either Miss Bettany or Fraulein/Frau would have been used - unless, of course, Madge was the one who decided that she needed a more mature title, given her youth, and opted for Madame herself rather than Mrs Bettany or Frau.

#39: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:48 pm
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Just laughing heartily at the fact that one of the omissions from the pb states that the Robin hated being 'the body' during life-saving practice - tell me, did this mean she got dropped into the lake so the other girls could practice fishing her out (presumably because she was small) or just that they practiced CPR on her???

Either way, it seems slightly at odds with her proto-TB school baby fragility! Even for someone not (as I'm not) a Robin fan, it seems rather hard lines!

Also, does anyone else share my difficulty in imagining precisely what brown linen tunics with tussore silk tops might look like? I tend to forget until I re-read the early books that they didn't always wear blazers and ties etc, and I can never quite visualise how silk tops (I think in some books they are 'shantung' rather than 'tussore') go with a tunic...

#40: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:03 pm
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Holly wrote:

KB wrote:

I'd assumed it was a common sort of a courtesy title for the head of a school, but at the moment the only other examples of Madame-without-surname that I can come up with are ballet schools, as in Streatfeild and Godden. Any other examples out there?

#41: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:30 pm
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When Joyce Linton didn't give the Robin a goodnight kiss, Jo ought to have been grateful, not indignant. All those years of coddling the child so she doesn't get TB, and if she had been going to get it from her mother, she would have had it already, and Jo is indignant because the daughter of a woman who is suffering from TB, and who has spent a long time getting to the Tiernsee, and a girl who has, furthermore, seen a lot of her mother, and Jo complains that she didn't kiss the child. What about passing on the infection?

#42: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:32 pm
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Sunglass wrote:

Also, does anyone else share my difficulty in imagining precisely what brown linen tunics with tussore silk tops might look like? I tend to forget until I re-read the early books that they didn't always wear blazers and ties etc, and I can never quite visualise how silk tops (I think in some books they are 'shantung' rather than 'tussore') go with a tunic...

I imagine EBD meant something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymslip

I have photos of my mother wearing very similar uniform, except in her case it was a cotton blouse rather than a silk top.

#43: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:44 pm
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It's nice to have it confirmed that gympslip = jumper (even if Wiki has the weird idea that it would be called a "jumper dress" rather than just plain "jumper.") Those aren't too far from our 1960s school uniforms, except the top front of ours was split down the middle so that you could see the buttons of the blouse. Also at least one of the girls in the picture would have been hauled into Sister Superior's office, since her hemline doesn't reach the middle of the knee. Shocked

#44: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:27 pm
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That's pretty much the kind of gymslip I wore at school myself in the 70s, though with a blouse and tie, and a jumper (in the European sense of sweater) over it, and made out of scratchy royal-blue gabardine.

I think it's the combination of hard-wearing, practical gymslip/tunic and a far more fancy-sounding (and difficult to wash?) silk top that I find it hard to get my head around, though! I'd be fascinated to see a photo of something other than what look like ordinary blouses or Aertex shirts under tunics.

Agreed to whoever pointed out discrepancies with Robin-kissing and the possibility of droplet-infection TB! Also, I was reading CS Fete today and noticed for the first time how odd it was that Joey goes into the San, a dedicated TB sanatorium, to have Cecil, even though they are pushed for space - she says she only comes home so soon after the birth because they need the room for Nina Rutherford's tubercular cousin Alix!

#45: Author: Holly,

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:58 pm
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Jennie wrote:

When Joyce Linton didn't give the Robin a goodnight kiss, Jo ought to have been grateful, not indignant. All those years of coddling the child so she doesn't get TB, and if she had been going to get it from her mother, she would have had it already, and Jo is indignant because the daughter of a woman who is suffering from TB, and who has spent a long time getting to the Tiernsee, and a girl who has, furthermore, seen a lot of her mother, and Jo complains that she didn't kiss the child. What about passing on the infection?

Good point.

What about Jem? He runs a sanatorium, for Heaven's sake! He's in contact with sick people on a daily basis. I'd have been worried about the Robin picking up something from him.

#46: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:28 pm
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Sunglass wrote:

That's pretty much the kind of gymslip I wore at school myself in the 70s, though with a blouse and tie, and a jumper (in the European sense of sweater) over it, and made out of scratchy royal-blue gabardine.

It's the same kind of one I wore in the 90s! The children in my old school still wear it.

#47: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:37 am
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Sunglass wrote:

I think it's the combination of hard-wearing, practical gymslip/tunic and a far more fancy-sounding (and difficult to wash?) silk top that I find it hard to get my head around, though! I'd be fascinated to see a photo of something other than what look like ordinary blouses or Aertex shirts under tunics.

Shantung / Tussore (Chinese name versus Indian name for the same thing) silk isn't the kind of flimsy light-weight silk you'd associate with a "best" garment. Rather, it's a coarse, raw, hard-wearing silk. This is what I originally wrote for the Afterword of Juliet (it got trimmed in the final version):

Quote:

Tussore / Tussah / Tusser Silk: Tussah silk (from the Hindi word ‘tasar’) is a inexpensive silk made by ‘wild’ Asian silk worms (e.g. the larvae of a large moth, Antheraea paphia). Typically, a rough or coarse silk, it has irregular thick and thin yarns and creates a fabric with an uneven texture. The colour may also be uneven, but is generally brownish or yellowish, and is commonly woven and worn in its natural colour. Presumably, the tops or blouses worn by the Chalet girls were bleached to a paler, creamy shade. Often referred to as ‘raw’ silk, Tussah (Tussore) is an Indian name; in China the same type of silk is known as Shantung silk (named after Shantung province). The two names may be used interchangeably.

#48: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:44 am
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The length of the gymslips was intentional. A shorter skirt indicated schoolgirl status at that time. One didn't wear longer skirts until one was sixteen or over and was visibly seen to be growing up.

And Caroline is correct, tussore silk or shantung is a very hard-wearing fabric that lasts for years.

#49: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:21 pm
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Jennie wrote:

The length of the gymslips was intentional. A shorter skirt indicated schoolgirl status at that time. One didn't wear longer skirts until one was sixteen or over and was visibly seen to be growing up.

And they were supposed to be easy to move in. As the name suggests, they were originally introduced just to be worn for gym or games; then over time they came to be adopted as normal school wear for girls.

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