What would you say the CS definition of a Leader is, and what sort of personality traits does it require? Is popularity seen as a positive thing? Do the girls who are popular in the Chalet school deserve to be so?
Please join in and discuss below
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| Themes: Popularity and Leadership http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5027 |
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| Author: | Róisín [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Themes: Popularity and Leadership |
What would you say the CS definition of a Leader is, and what sort of personality traits does it require? Is popularity seen as a positive thing? Do the girls who are popular in the Chalet school deserve to be so? Please join in and discuss below
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| Author: | Alison H [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:59 pm ] |
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Popularity is definitely seen as a positive thing IMO. I'm not sure that all the people who are popular deserve to be, but that's a fact of life generally - often people who have domineering personalities become "popular" in that they have gangs of people following them (I can't stand Jack Lambert, but she is very much a leader of the pack), whereas shy, quiet people who might make lovely friends are often not popular because people don't notice them or make the effort to get to know them and they find it difficult to put themselves forward. The definition of a leader seems to be ambiguous - but is perhaps defined, insofar as it ever is, in terms of how people deal with problems. Gisela, for example, is a great leader IMO in that she calms down awkward situations and takes charge in a crisis, and so (whatever her faults) is Mary-Lou who also copes with problems when they arise and is "proactive" in dealing with potential problems. However, Joey and Len are both also praised as being leaders and I'm not sure why - Joey loses the plot during the escape from Tyrol and is more of a hindrance than a help. In other school stories, the sports captains are often "leaders", but sport doesn't play such a big role in the CS books. There's also the idea of a leader as the person who "leads" a group of people, such as Mary-Lou with her Gang and Jack Lambert with her group. In terms of adults, we never really see any serious problems in the staff room, except with the 2 troublesome Matrons, but we do see Madge taking charge during the flood and so on. |
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| Author: | Miss Di [ Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:26 am ] |
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Alison H wrote:
However, Joey and Len are both also praised as being leaders and I'm
not sure why - Joey loses the plot during the escape from Tyrol and is
more of a hindrance than a help.
Oh I don't think she did too badly, especially for someone who has always been highly strung, imaginative, and runs a fever at the drop of a hat. She was quick thinking enough to pretend to be a Gypsy and ask for alms when they were spotted (Although my adult brain doesn't see pretending to be a Gypsy as being a good choice...) I don't know if I would have coped with walking from one end of the country to the other, with the secret police after me, and think her PTSD is an entirely natural response! |
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| Author: | LizzieC [ Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:14 am ] |
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Miss Di wrote: Alison H wrote:
However, Joey and Len are both also praised as being leaders and I'm
not sure why - Joey loses the plot during the escape from Tyrol and is
more of a hindrance than a help. She was quick thinking enough to pretend to be a Gypsy and ask for alms when they were spotted (Although my adult brain doesn't see pretending to be a Gypsy as being a good choice...) I don't think it was a too awful choice really. With hindsight we know that Gypsies were as targeted as Jews, but I'm not sure how much of that was known at the time EBD was writing. In addition, thinking logically, if everyone is looking for Jo and her party with some urgency, they're not going to break off pursuit/their search to go arrest or execute a Gypsy who is being relatively inoffensive to them at the time. |
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| Author: | Sunglass [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:36 am ] |
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I was just thinking about this in relation to EBD's two ultimate leaders/popular girls (is it fair to say that this is pretty much the same thing for EBD?) - Joey and Mary-Lou, when I was commenting on how insufferably bossy I find Joey in Coming of Age. I think EBD has a very high toleration of extremely bossy behaviour in characters she writes as admirable and ideal. I mean, I can understand when she is writing about a mistress being a mistress or a prefect fulfilling her duties that she needs to show them essentially telling people what to do and making sure they do it, but she carries this over into the 'private' behaviour of ML and Joey in situations where it seems much less necessary (and much less attractive to me at least!) Most of both ML and Joey's characters are made up of them continually (sometimes humorously, sometimes empathically) telling people what to do and solving problems - neither really has any other way of relating to people! Thinking of other GO stories, there are lots of examples of bossy/do-gooding characters being laughed at, teased or resented - the tyrannical Moira in Malory Towers, and even the popular Darrell when she's seen as taking her head-girl duties too seriously, or Antonia Forest's Rowan, Nicola and Ann Marlow (in their different ways) and Miranda West. But EBD doesn't seem to need to protect her favourite characters against that kind of charge...? The only people who find ML and J too much are shown to be wrong, or dismissed, so their behaviour is endorsed as attractive and a sign of proper leadership. |
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| Author: | Maeve [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:55 am ] |
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Sunglass wrote: Quote: I
was just thinking about this in relation to EBD's two ultimate
leaders/popular girls (is it fair to say that this is pretty much the
same thing for EBD?)
We do see some "bad" people who are leaders within a small group of people, such as Betty Wynne-Davis and Jennifer Penrose, although it is always quickly pointed out that their followers are empty-headed, heedless, etc. So these are leaders (in the sense that they lead a group of girls) who are not broadly popular. Elaine Gilling is rather interesting in this discussion as she appears popular among good and bad girls alike -- at least, I always thought that Gypsy and co. didn't so much dislike her, as they thought she was taking a foolish attitude in her response to the CS -- but otherwise, and probably up until the school came to the Tirol, they liked and followed her well enough. I think EBD thought leadership was a gift that some people had and that with it came responsibility to live up to it -- thus all the conversations with reluctant would-be head girls about how much the others looked up to them and how much they owed the school. |
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| Author: | Mel [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:27 pm ] |
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EBD sees the influence of good Head Girls extending to adulthood too. In Reunion Grizel takes charge when disaster strikes during one of the interminable rambles, because she had been Head Girl/prefect over the others in their schooldays! They are all now in their thirties! |
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| Author: | Meg14 [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:20 pm ] |
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As far as character traits go I have never really understood why Jack Lambert was being lined up to be the next leader. She always seemed to me to be a very unpleasant person (although I may be biased by the fact I have only read ‘Jane’). Does she redeem herself at any point? Otherwise EBD lost me with that one! On the other hand although I find Mary-Lou difficult to like I do always get the feeling she is trying to help the others for the best of reasons. It does grate on me how we are constantly told how popular she is with all the girls. I always feel that EBD wasn’t sure that her readers would be convinced by her character and therefore was always trying to convince us by repeating the fact she was popular ad nauseum! As far as the point about this power extending to adulthood goes Mel I think that this is also reflected both in Joey and Mary-Lou having power to solve school problems way after they have left! Even Miss Annersley turns to Joey to solve school problems and after Mary Lou has left and turns back up on the Platz she is immediately set to solving problems between the girls still at school. |
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| Author: | jennifer [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:27 am ] |
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I think in EBD's interpretation, popularity carries with it the expectation and responsibility of leadership. Joey, for example, is very popular and well liked, so she is told it is her duty to be a leader, even though her personality is not necessarily the type that makes a good leader - scatterbrained, tactless, disorganized, tending to clash with other dominant personalities, emotionally volatile and prone to physical/emotional collapse under stress. |
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| Author: | Fiona Mc [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:43 am ] |
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Yet she did have a number of girls who were not necessarily popular being head Girls ie Elinor Pennell, Louise and some popular girls not being Head Girls, ie Hilary Wilson, Sybil Russell, Tom Gay, the quinette (for the most part. So the two never went hand in hand, and some of the girls who did show strong leadership and were never given the chance to be Head Girls or were overshadowed |
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| Author: | MJKB [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | popularity. |
Over the years I have always been interested in what creates a good dynamic within a class . In some year groups the nasty, loud and pushy characters rise to the top and a negative dynamic is created, wheras in other years, a more emphathic leadership emerges and becomes a force for positivity and inclusivity in the group. Someone in another section mentions Bride Bettany and her group as being a thoroughly nice and inclusive group and I absolutely agree. I'd regard Jack Lambert's leadership, particularly in Jane, as negative in the extreme. She browbeats even the nice girls in the class into torturing a new girl. I really think EBD was way off course when she sets Jack up as the natural successor to Len Maynard. Jack is treated with so much more understanding and compassion for being an out and out cow while a character like poor old Hilda Jukes is castigated for being a mere klutz. Other leaders like Joey, Mary-Lou and Len, may have their faults, but they are at least kind and usually well meaning. |
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