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Books: Peggy of the Chalet School
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Author:  Róisín [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Books: Peggy of the Chalet School
To her own surprise, Peggy is the new Head Girl. It is also her first term as a sixth former. Peggy's friends support her, but Eilunedd Vaughan causes some trouble. This book is the one that introduces Polly and Lala Winterton. Polly takes some time to settle in.

So, do you like this book? We have some pretty home scenes for the Bettany family - did you enjoy these or did they seem too harmonious for a family that has spent more time apart than together? Did Peggy deserve to be Head Girl - was Eilunedd justified in her feelings at all? What about the 'Marilyn Evans' case - since this is the reason used to justify Peggy's appointment - do you have strong feelings about it? And the Wintertons - what about their home life and the actions of their father and brother?

Please discuss anything at all to do with Peggy below :D

Next Sunday: Carola Storms the Chalet School
Author:  Elle [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mr Winterton annoys me! He disappears for 10 years, comes back and complains that things are not the way he would like. If he really gave a damn he should have been at home, not running round the world being a journalist(?)... Typical EBD OTT patriachal git! :evil: :evil: :evil:
Author:  Maeve [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mr Winterton is an idiot and Mrs Winterton a bit feeble, but I do like Polly and Lala a lot -- they are both characters whom I wish had been continued as fully dimensional people in later books. I found their reactions to their father and to life at school very believable. And I liked Nell Randolph and how she interacts with everyone and clears Peggy's name in the end.
Author:  Liz K [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Elle wrote:
Mr Winterton annoys me! He disappears for 10 years, comes back and complains that things are not the way he would like. If he really gave a damn he should have been at home, not running round the world being a journalist(?)... Typical EBD OTT patriachal git! :evil: :evil: :evil:


Nice reaction, I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Author:  abbeybufo [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
I always feel how different life is now, with this title - apart from the obvious remark that no children's book plot would now even get off the ground because of the ubiquity of mobile phones, the whole idea of trusting someone who you met on the train to hand you over to someone you could also trust and going off with him in his car . . . well it just would be asking for trouble these days, wouldn't it :shock:

But the book works well as a school story, with the tensions of Peggy's appointment - the inevitable jealousy of someone who thought they should have been HG instead - in fact that wuld have worked even if Peggy had not been a memebr of the 'ruling clan' - all that did was give Eilunnedd an extra innuendo to use against her.

And I too like Nell coming back to clear Peggy's name - it's always good when someone met early in a book - seemingly quite inconsequentially - has a key role later in the plot.
Author:  Travellers Joy [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Which begs another question: did EBD create these male characters for the sake of the story, or was she describing men as they were in her time? Although my father didn't disappear overseas for years, he was actually not far removed from many of EBD's fathers - and how I would have loved to have escaped to boarding school! :D (Carola had my full sympathies when she ran away to school!! :lol:)
Author:  Alison H [ Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mr Winterton annoys me too! So does Madge's attitude towards David and Sybil: I hate the way EBD a) sidelined Madge and b) turned her from the lovely person she was early on into the person she became. Couldn't she at least have phrased it as "Would you and Dick tell Sybil and David as they might take it better face-to-face than in a letter?" rather than "Oh I haven't got time to write to my own children because I've got some shopping to do, so please will you pass the news on to them?" (or words to that effect!) :evil: ? And don't even get me started on Lala's snotty comment about the village school in Yorkshire ...

I like the Peggy-Eilunedd storyline, though - that sort of bitching behind someone's back is (unfortunately!) IMHO quite typical of what can happen in schools (especially girls' schools!), and is well-handled. It's a much more "likely" storyline than Thekla trying to get Joyce expelled or Vera Smithers writing anonymous letters to the King of Belsornia: Eilunedd's a much more realistic "baddie".

Mary-Lou comes out of it well - she was great in the pre-Swiss books! I wish we'd got to see Marilyn Evans as HG but assume that EBD skipped the years between Rosalie and Three Go to get well past the War years. It's weird when they hark back to Marilyn's time as HG, and other things like the feud that Eilunedd apparently pursued against Daisy, though: this was one of the first books I read and for years I assumed that all that was covered in an earlier book that I hadn't got hold of yet!

Nice to see Hilda given some relations of her own, as well! It's surprising that more of the staff's relations didn't turn up, actually. Did none of them have handsome eligible brothers/cousins/young uncles whom they could have introduced to their friends :wink: ?
Author:  jennifer [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:29 am ]
Post subject: 
I also find Mr Winterton a very unsympathetic character. Being overseas for years was fairly normal for the time and his profession, it's more the the attitude that he expects his family to do what he expects and wants them to, with no input from him. He first moves them to the country, away from good schools and their support network and friends, and takes off for ten years. He expects his wife to put them into boarding school, knowing she has a hatred of it, and doesn't appear to follow up on their schooling at all afterwards. Then, after ten years he returns, decides that the girls and his wife aren't to his liking, and decides to summarily move them again, disciplines his daughters and wife (she has to account to him too, like an errant child), and generally makes himself disliked. The girls haven't seen him since they were 4 or 5, so they have no real relationship to interpret his discipline with. Git.

Eilunedd is an interesting villian - much more interesting than Peggy, who is pretty wishy washy as a Head Girl. Her raction when Joan tries to warn her about Eilunedd's grudge, for example.

Quote:
"Then it's the sort of feeling you'd better get rid of pronto!" Peggy
retorted. "I remember the fuss there was over Gwensi's things going
missing, but she always was a slapdash kind of creature, and never
knew where her possessions were, half the time." She turned and faced
Joan squarely. "I don't understand you, Joan. It isn't in the least
like you. You've always been so fair."

Joan reddened. "I'm sorry if you feel like that, Peggy, but I can't
help it. I felt I must put you on your guard. I'm not the only one to
notice it, either," she added. "Dickie Christy said something about it
last night, and Daphne Russell saw it too."

Peggy laughed unbelievingly. "I think you three must have come back
crackers. All the same, I apologize for saying you weren't being fair,
Joan. Maybe you weren't to Eilunedd; but you were being as square as
you could to me. If anything happens to make me change my mind about
Eilunedd, I'll apologize again in six different attitudes.


And when the whole thing blows up, it's the other prefects who figure out what's going on, how to solve it, and address the juniors. Peggy just sort of sits there passively.
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Entirely agree on the dire patriarch Mr Winterton, and his unpleasant-sounding son, who sounds like a first-rate prig. And I always rather like scruffy, mouthy Lala and Polly, with their wild fantasy life, and all that dressing up in the curtains and minor rebellion. I'm certainly also on their side when passive-aggressive Peggy shows up at their house, all big hat, trig clothes, carefully-preserved pale complexion, hair with a 'soft sheen' and the kind of Ostentatiously Parent-Pleasing Manners that used to drive me and my sisters mad as children, when they were produced for effect in front of our mother. And while I'd like to say that it's EBD's subtle way of showing us that all is not entirely well in the reunited Bettany clan, so Peggy is trying to be an absolutely ideal daughter to a mother and siblings she hardly knows, and is simply over doing it - I don't believe it for a second. This is the EBD Model CS Girl meeting the scruffs.

I agree also about Eilunedd (whose name I very much like!) being a believable baddy. Though she must also be the only CS girl ever to have (a) actually expected to be head girl and (b) actually actively wanted to be! The usual EBD approved manner is not to have even considered it in advance, and then to be either horrified or just shocked! Presumably EBD is suspicious of girls who feel they actively deserve the position, or are power-hungry! And are we expected to think that E. would have been a contender for the post, if not in Special Sixth? Nothing we see of her suggests she would have been a strong candidate, even if the CS did that bizarre thing of choosing the oldest girl suitable.

And as I have now emerged as a thorough Peggy-hater, I'll add that I find it outrageous that Peggy implies Joan Sandys is not being 'square' when she tries to warn her about Eilunedd's dislike - she's just being observant. And not even that observant, given that Eilunedd is muttering asides to herself and making pointed remarks like Iago!
Author:  jennifer [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Sunglass wrote:
E I'm certainly also on their side when passive-aggressive Peggy shows up at their house, all big hat, trig clothes, carefully-preserved pale complexion, hair with a 'soft sheen' and the kind of Ostentatiously Parent-Pleasing Manners


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I would also much prefer to hang out with Polly and Lala, with their scruffiness and awkwardness and rebellion than Perfect Peggy. Actually, Polly strikes me as one of the more accurate portrayals of an awkward teenager in the series, and much more fun than a sixteen year old who wears a big hat to save her complexion.
Author:  Jennie [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd vote for Polly and Lalla too, they have life in them, and imagination, unlike Peggy who has always struck me as being as sweet as saccharine, and utterly goody-goody.

Down with Mr Winterton! If you ignore your children and their welfare for ten years, it's no good trying to turn the situation around the moment you get back and find you don't like them.
Author:  Maeve [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sunglass said:
Quote:
I'll add that I find it outrageous that Peggy implies Joan Sandys is not being 'square' when she tries to warn her about Eilunedd's dislike - she's just being observant.


I absolutely agree! I've never understood Peggy's response here. If EBD needed her to doubt Joan to advance the plot, couldn't she just have been politely confused?
Author:  JS [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Erm, just to stand up for Peggy here (pauses to wait for flying missiles heading in my direction) I always quite liked her, especially in Oberland, when I felt very sorry for her when her mother was ill. I can see the reasons for thinking her wishy washy etc now they're pointed out to me, but when I read the books as a child I certainly didn't feel she wasn't a worthwhile character. And although I was pleased to meet Nell again (was she in any previous spin-outs a la Monica? If not, why not??) she did pop up a bit like the deus ex machina? And why should the school believe her and not the girls who were with Peggy? All very suspect, but I suppose it made the plot roll along.

But do we really think that Eilunedd would have felt regret, rather than annoyance, which would seem more natural given her character, over Joey's extremely heavy metaphor with the feathers?
Author:  Billie [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
That feathers metaphor always seemed too cheesy for words, even in the days when I didn't notice that sort of thing very often.

I like Peggy well enough, but she's a bit insipid, I agree. Polly and Lalla are some of the most interesting new girls, especially in that era, in that though they're neither perfect nor horrors, and their play-acting brings some great realism into the story. I do, however, wish that I'd seen more of the Bettanys as a family; having said that, I only have the paperback and may be missing something.

I am certainly not going to sign up to Mr Winterton's fan club any time soon.

I liked Nell a lot. I like to see characters from outside the world of the Chalet School (even if she is related to Miss Annersley.)

Eillunedd is nasty, and I'm not quite sure whether she was ever in the running for head girl - she shouldn't be! - or just let wishful thinking get the better of her. She's sadly all too believable as a villain.

I too wished I'd seen the Marilyn Evans term, and until recently assumed it would have been covered in one of the earlier books. (However, thinking about it now I realise the only book that came before Peggy that I haven't read was Jo to the Rescue. Hmm. Has anyone written a drabble about that term?
Author:  Clare [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
JS wrote:
. And although I was pleased to meet Nell again (was she in any previous spin-outs a la Monica? If not, why not??) she did pop up a bit like the deus ex machina? And why should the school believe her and not the girls who were with Peggy? All very suspect, but I suppose it made the plot roll along.


Personally if I'd been sat in that hall when Nell turned up to say "you've heard the lies now here's the truth" I'd have been highly sceptical, and even more inclined to listen to the gossip about Peggy. I can't read that passage without cringing.
Author:  Karry [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
The feathers metaphor is one that we use in our devotional this quarter. I must admit that as I proofed it Ihad strange thought that our writer ( 60-year-old Irish American male) MUST have read Island!
Author:  Mel [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
The trouble is, that Peggy is a well-established character, but hasn't featured much to date, unlike Bride. She is pretty and good and that's it. Also, brought up by Madge and looking like her, (apart from colouring,) I feel she has her aunt's worst features, ie autocratic yet ultra-feminine. What a pity she wasn't like lovely Molly. Mr Winterton is appalling, Mrs W extremely wet and Giles a prig who marries Peggy. A perfect match. I find the punishment for the Austen talk way too harsh. Jo and Co didn't get punished for their Shakespeariana. This was the first Chalet book I read, so my first introduction to Joey, who didn't make much of an impression - a faintly manic woman in a brown beret! I could not believe that an adult would choose to wear a beret, as at the time I had to wear a green one for school!
Author:  JS [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
This was the first Chalet book I read, so my first introduction to Joey, who didn't make much of an impression - a faintly manic woman in a brown beret! I could not believe that an adult would choose to wear a beret, as at the time I had to wear a green one for school!


Oh dear, was wearing a black one today. What else are you supposed to do in proper Scottish wind and rain which is death to any umbrella, however strong?
Author:  JB [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
This was the one of the earliest titles I read and I liked that it filled in the gaps a bit as going from Tyrol to Switzerland was so confusing. It is still one I enjoy.

Peggy is such a bland character, unlike Bride who we follow through the school, although she does improve in Oberland.

The prefects swing from being incredibly heavy-handed over the Jane Austen slang to being unable to deal with the whispering campagin against Peggy.

Mr Winterton is appalling. Polly and Lalla are independent and lively, and I like the way they don't quite fit into the school whilst also making the most of it.

I could have lived without Joey moving to Carnbach and, especially taking over as history mistress. Those poor sixth formers with their extra lessons. And who look after the Maynard boys while she was stuck on the island? Jack would have been away at the san and I don't think she had a mother's help in those days.

Having said that, I do like the way Joey's extended family links to the earlier books with mentions of Rob, Daisy and Primula - where they'll all sleep and that they're coming home for the weekend.
Author:  JayB [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I find the punishment for the Austen talk way too harsh.


I don't know what exactly they were being punished for. They weren't breaking any rules. If the prefects had just ignored it, it would have fallen flat. They'd have done a lot of reading for nothing, and got bored with it after a few days.

I don't find Peggy very interesting; she isn't even the strongest character in her group - Joan or Dickie or Nita all stand out more.
Author:  Caroline [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:04 am ]
Post subject: 
I find this book a bit meh... I don't dislike it at all, and it has lots of features that I like, but overall, it's just a bit colourless - a bit like the heroine.

I find it interesting that a few people have mentionned the fact that we don't actually know Peggy (or her gang of friends) very well at this point - that is so true, and it had never occurred to me.

We have followed Bride and Co. through a number of books - Highland Twins , Lavender and Tom, particularly, also Rosalie, and she played a big part in Island. In all of those, Peggy featured only occasionally in the background, or when the girls were at the Round House or Plas Gwyn.

Probably Lavender was the book she appears in most - when her form get involved in the row with Lavender about .... nope, can't remember! Anyway, even there she is this rather prim goody goody girl from the form above, taking the superior, common sense, side in the argument.

So, anyway, meeting her as Head Girl in her eponymous book is the first time we really get to know her. I quite like her interaction with Polly and Lalla in the first chapter. Yes, she comes across as Mother's Dearest Daughter, but she makes a nice contrast with the Wintertons, and this is the first inkling they get that maybe they have slipped from the path of the Good Schoolgirl.

(Talking of which, I do agree that Mr W is a muppet and a bully, but it is also true that Mrs W is pretty feeble and that P and L have run wild - mostly not their own fault, but still, they are 14 and 15 - old enough to be starting to think about things a little more, maybe? In EBD's world, anyway - compare and contrast Polly with Gillian Linton at the same age...)

I feel quite sorry for Peggy at the start, too - the first time she has had to take solo responsibility for the whole gang going back to school, she gets two new girls and a random friend of Maeve's wished on her, and then messes it all up. I'd have been mortified! And then she gets landed with being Head Girl when she can only have expected to be a very junior prefect - no wonder she doesn't take Eilunedd's mutterings seriously, she must hardly know which way is up by that point. And I would like to think her switherings from OTT discpline to hand wringing ineffectivness are EBD showing us how she struggled with the step up to HG...

In spite of all this, I do still find her rather bland, though - inoffensive, but bland. She's just not a Head Girl that stands out in retrospect. I wonder if she suffers particularly from preceding Bride, who is such a strong character, who we know so well, and also from having Dickie as her sidekick - another strong personality...
Author:  Kate [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:37 am ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
Quote:
I find the punishment for the Austen talk way too harsh.


I don't know what exactly they were being punished for. They weren't breaking any rules. If the prefects had just ignored it, it would have fallen flat. They'd have done a lot of reading for nothing, and got bored with it after a few days.


Well, they were undermining the prefects, I suppose - especially with Frances during hobbies. That is a very difficult thing to deal with, though. Ignoring can often be the best policy, especially accompanied by gentle amusement in their direction.
Author:  jennifer [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:49 am ]
Post subject: 
As an aside, did anyone else have a mental picture of Joey, left without the school close-by for the first time in her life, being totally unable to cope and sneaking out with a pick-axe to undermine the foundations of Plas Gwyn? That's my explanation for why she shows up.

Her teaching method is pretty dodgy, though. She piles in random lessons whenever she gets over to the island, completely ignoring the fact that her students have numerous other classes, assignments, and other duties, and rides right over their legitimate complaints when they don't have enough time to get their work done. I wonder what the regular staff's reaction to this was?
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:02 am ]
Post subject: 
They probably didn't dare say anything - except to trusted colleagues - because she was Joey! Same - re the discussion about the matrons - about Matey hauling girls out of lessons to tidy their drawers.

You get that in most workplaces - people who've been at/associated with the place for a long time getting away with poor working practices because there's a kind of block on criticising them - but it must have been particularly bad at the CS because so many staff members were Old Girls/had been there for years.
Author:  JayB [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:04 am ]
Post subject: 
I did think it was a little unfair of Rosalie to blame Peggy for the mix up with the trains. I'd have thought it was up to the parents to check the journey arrangements.

I suppose going off with Edgar Mordaunt wouldn't be recommended, but it's difficult to see what else they could have done. What would have happened if he hadn't been there? Peggy would have had enough money for a phone call, presumably. I suppose Gloucester isn't far from Armiford, maybe the school would have been able to arrange for Gwensi or some other local friend to pick them up.

Mothers - what would you want your teenage daughter to do if she found herself in a similar situation? Able to make a phone call, but no money to do anything else?

I wouldn't have given Joey an exam class to teach, myself. She's never taken public exams herself, is probably not up to date with the latest academic thinking, however wide her general reading might be, and is quite inexperienced as a teacher (what's she done - a bit in Jo Returns and a few weeks in Gay? The piling on the work is perhaps a sign of her own inexperience, but I wonder Hilda or someone didn't intervene. Maybe they would if it had gone on.

I'd have given her one of the lower forms myself - she's perfectly capable of handling naughty Middles - and let one of the other two history mistresses have the Sixth.
Author:  Lottie [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:12 am ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
I'd have given her one of the lower forms myself - she's perfectly capable of handling naughty Middles - and let one of the other two history mistresses have the Sixth.

Were there any other History mistresses? I thought the reason Joey was teaching the subject is because there wasn't anybody else until Biddy could get back from Australia, and that had to wait until the end of the Australian academic year at Christmas.
Author:  Tor [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Peggy was the first CS book I read, so it is special to me in many ways...

I think part of the reason it worked for me is that it conforms very well to the format of boarding school books I had become used to from St Clares and Mallory Towers, i.e. a school girl baddy and some new girls shaking down, and didn't focus much on Joey at all. I would have been quite confused otherwise, I think.

However, it also meant that Lala and Polly became the characters I wanted to follow through the series - and of course that never happened (fortunately the list of all those other titles in the front of my paper back was such an incredible temptation for me that I got over it and had fun trying to work out what the hell was going on in the books as I read them rather randomly over the years.)

The other thing I loved was the descriptions of the dolls house and how they were making it. I spent a while drawing duck ponds and mountain scenes a la Polly for ages afterwards.

Peggy is a rubbish character, but only in that she is a nothing. I didn't really care about the rumour plot line, and actually thought Eilunedd had a bit of a point about favouritism, as Peggy seemed wet!

I also get really irritated by all of the head girls who go all demure and 'what me?' over getting to be head girl. I really think the natural reaction is 'well, I didn't expect it... (naivety not a great thing in a head girl, but..), however I am now feeling quite smug actually!'. What is so bad about a little ambition, anyway?
Author:  JayB [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Were there any other History mistresses? I thought the reason Joey was teaching the subject is because there wasn't anybody else until Biddy could get back from Australia

This is what was said. Assuming the other visiting mistress was qualified and/or more experienced than Joey, I'd have given her the Sixth and let Joey have the Fourth.
Quote:
“Aren’t we having new mistresses, then, Miss Annersley?” Judy Rose asked.
The Head was silent for a moment. Then she spoke. “We have a new mistress for junior history, who will also teach some of Miss Linton’s subjects; and, of course, we have a new handcrafts mistress in place of Miss Carey. That is all, though.”
“But who’s going to take our history?” Daphne asked anxiously.
“Well,” the Head said slowly, “we have a visiting mistress coming twice a week for the Upper Fourth and the three Fifths.”
“And what about us?” Dicky Christy demanded. “Aren’t we to do history at all?”
“Oh, I hope it isn’t that!” Peggy cried. “I love history.”
The two Heads looked at each other, and for no reason that the eager girls could see, both suddenly chuckled. Then Miss Wilson had mercy on them.
“Of course you are going on with history. Don’t be so silly! As for who is going to teach you, well, what do you say to—Joey Maynard?....
“Why isn’t Auntie Jo teaching all the senior history?” Peggy asked.
“Because she couldn’t possibly spare the time,” Miss Wilson said promptly. “Stephen only goes to morning school, and then there are Charles and Michael.”
Author:  Lottie [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:36 am ]
Post subject: 
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Thanks, JayB. I'd forgotten that bit.
Author:  JayB [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, since the other visiting mistress is never mentioned again, that's not surprising! It's only because I was skimming through Peggy last night for this discussion that I remembered it.

ETA: I think Peggy was also OTT in wanting to give Blossom a Head's Report. Blossom was cheeky, but a Head's Report is usually reserved for much more serious offences.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Karry wrote:
The feathers metaphor is one that we use in our devotional this quarter. I must admit that as I proofed it Ihad strange thought that our writer ( 60-year-old Irish American male) MUST have read Island!


I used this very story from Peggy in a sermon a couple of years ago, although I changed Eilunedd's name to "Eileen" as I have no idea how to pronounce "Eilunedd"!
Author:  Dawn [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
In fairness to Joey, she does make it clear that she is trying to get them up to exam standard while she is there as she won't be crossing if the weather is bad again (sorry to wheezy to move and look up the proper quote). So although it is a real pain for them at the time, they are aware that there will be days when she can't turn up in future and that they do still need to have covered the work.

Not an ideal situation at all, but probably the best that could be done - there would have been more wailing if they hadn't done half the work!
Author:  Lisa_T [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:22 am ]
Post subject: 
But what was the emphasis in history exams at the time? I mean, was it about the knowledge or analysis or the ideal combination of both? If it was mainly the former (and don't forget, Peggy and co, are just embarking on their 6th form studies at this point - they do have time to play with, to a degree) then I'm sure Joey could get them off to a good start. Even if it was knowledge/reasoning, Joey still isn't a bad choice - I remember reading somewhere (Chalet School Companion, maybe?) that's Joey's stint at teaching history in Jo Returns has been commended as an excellent example of how to teach the subject.

Let's face it, if you understand causation and you understand consequences in history, you can go a long way. :lol: :lol:
Author:  JayB [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Don't know about Higher school Cert., which is what Peggy and Co were doing. A level history, at least when I did it, required some analytical or critical thinking from students - not just what happened but why.

Joey's basic knowledge was good, of course. But as I said upthread, she'd never taken any public exams, so she couldn't help the girls much with exam technique. And she probably wasn't up to date with the latest academic thinking and debates, unless she'd kept up with the latest scholarly works and journal articles. Speaking again of A level history when I did it, questions were often based on these debates, and students were expected to be aware of the arguments on both sides. Joey couldn't 'teach to the exam' if she didn't know what was likely to come up and what the arguments were. She'd have to do a lot of reading to get herself up to date with the syllabus.

Quote:
Peggy and co, are just embarking on their 6th form studies at this point

That's true of course - but the following September all that crowd went off to Welsen, didn't they? They weren't going to be doing exams there, so I'm not quite sure when they did do them!
Author:  Jane [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
This was my first CS book, too. Am I the only one who was utterly bewildered by all the Lady Acetylene Lampe stuff at the beginning - I was only eight when I read it and d it very confusing.
Author:  Becky [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jane wrote:
This was my first CS book, too. Am I the only one who was utterly bewildered by all the Lady Acetylene Lampe stuff at the beginning - I was only eight when I read it and d it very confusing.


It wasn't my first CS book, but I was certainly bewildered by the Lady Acetylene Lamp stuff too, and although I used to play pretend games, I really didn't like that part of the book at all.

I don't really like the whole book, thinking about it. My dad worked abroad for a while at the time I first read this and I missed him like mad, so I felt so sorry for Sybil and David with their family in Canada.
Author:  JS [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Am I the only one who was utterly bewildered by all the Lady Acetylene Lampe stuff at the beginning - I was only eight when I read it and d it very confusing.


Me too! And it took me years and years to realise that such a thing as an acetylene lamp existed and therefore that it was supposed to be funny. I'm guessing it was cut quite a bit in the paperback. Maybe some lucky soul who has the hardback could enlighten me on that one?
Author:  Lisa_T [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:10 pm ]
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That's true of course - but the following September all that crowd went off to Welsen, didn't they? They weren't going to be doing exams there, so I'm not quite sure when they did do them!


I had a look at Peggy last night, and I don't think anyone in that group was taking it to exam level, Joey to the contrary. Public exam, anyway. When they're told that the school doesn't have a full time history mistress that term, the protests are more because they don't want to lose the subject because they enjoy it, rather than because of exam-related worries. If that's the case, then there's no reason why Joey can't get them started. At the very least, she can give them a good course overview before Biddy picks up the 'real stuff'. Besides, we don't know exactly how widely Joey read in history. It was evidently a passion of hers, and for all we know, she was keeping abreast of the latest developments. That's not necessarily something EBD would consider important to state explicityl, especially in a children's book. Mary Burnett, remember, was a close contemporary of Joey's and they may well have exchanged papers etc.

And yes, analysis is required on the A'level history syllabus, but I know that my first term of the course was focused more on learning the background and context, since the period was completely unfamiliar. Analysis is all well and good, but from a teaching perspective there's no point in expecting much of it until the students have a good grasp of the material to begin with! Besides, at that point on a traditional two year course when ALL the assessment is at the end, no-one's too worried about exam technique. That's certainly how it was for me in that situation in '97.
Author:  Kathy_S [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:07 pm ]
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This book isn't one of my favorites, but I don't actively dislike anything about it, except for the odious Mr. Winterton. In particular, I don't mind Peggy as head girl. I rather like it that she's not the all-powerful, all-knowing type, just a nice girl who gets stuck with the job because she's not much good at sports compared to her only serious competitor. (Can you tell I agree with Polly that games are just another sort of lesson? Most often a nightmare sort of lesson!)

The Eilunedd story seems very realistic to me, both from the perspective of Eilunedd and in the different ways that Peggy and her less idealistic classmates react to the possibility. I am also amused by the idea that Eilunedd studies a Josephine M. Bettany book to make sure she doesn't do any of the things that get the JMB villain caught.

As for Joey's parable, I'm reasonably sure the feather metaphor isn't original with EBD, though I've never held a pre-Peggy manuscript in my own hands. However, the basic story is usually described as a folk tale, whether the rabbi/priest/wise woman sends the gossip for a chicken or has him/her empty a feather pillow. There is an attribution to Rabbi Levi Yitzhak of Berdichev (1740-1810) in one of the recent picture book renditions. I'm curious to know whether EBD picked up the idea from one of those books of folk tales or pious stories she mined for Christmas plays, from a sermon, or just out of the ether.
Author:  jennifer [ Thu May 01, 2008 2:45 am ]
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I see Joey's interest in history being that of a storyteller. She'd know a lot about the areas of history she was interested, and be able to describe it vividly, but not have the depth of expertise that a general history teacher would require when it came to the analysis, or breadth of knowledge. For example, she would know the Napoleonic era in great depth, but probably not as much about classical civilization.

I find the history teacher plot line very contrived in general. You have a well established school of 200+ students. Their senior history mistress is leaving to get married - planned in advance - and they've got an old girl who wants to teach, but can't come until a term later. I would think that any school with a reasonable degree of professionalism would, under those situations, either require Biddy to come when they needed her, or hire someone else who could start on time. Saying "Great. We'll get an untrained part time teacher who will have a spotty attendance record to teach the senior history clases this term" just doesn't make sense.


Re Acetylene Lamp - this was the first CS book I bough on eBay, and the first one I read for the first time as an adult. The beginning had me convinced I had ordered the wrong book!
Author:  Dreaming Marianne [ Tue May 06, 2008 8:27 pm ]
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Tor wrote:
Peggy is a rubbish character,


Oh well put!
Author:  LauraMcC [ Tue May 06, 2008 9:58 pm ]
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She wasn't that bad, was she? She is certainly very colourless, especially when compared with someone like Bride, but I feel that she would have made a perfect oldest daughter, very polite and with impeccable manners. She may not have been the most exciting of people, but I always felt that she would have been quite good to have around in the background, to be there if you needed someone. She may not have been the best Head Girl, either, given her lack of any real character, but the Head Girl in my year at school was a bit like that, and she wasn't related to the founding family! Mind you, our Head Boy was very extroverted and flamboyant, which made all the difference! :D
Author:  Alison H [ Tue May 06, 2008 10:23 pm ]
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As Laura said, she's very colourless compared with Bride - but she does try to help Elma in Oberland, and she offers to stay at home when Mollie's ill, so she's kind of dependable and reliable.

Maybe it was because she was the eldest girl of the Bettany/Russell nursery crowd - Daisy went straight to school when she arrived so she was never really part of it. Rix seems to've been the leader of the pack, but I can imagine that if he or David'd played silly pranks (which I'm sure they did!) then Madge or Jem or Rosa might just have said that "boys will be boys" but that perhaps Peggy would have been expected to be more responsible. Len seemed to be turned into a bit of a bore by being expected to be dependable and responsible all the time because she's the eldest (by half an hour!): maybe it was the same with Peggy.
Author:  jennifer [ Wed May 07, 2008 2:42 am ]
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I think what irritates me about Peggy is that she is so much the embodiment of everything that a well bred young woman is supposed to be.

She's ladylike and dainty and petite and pretty and well groomed. She has a soft, sweet voice. However, she's completely non-sexual, and has no self-awareness of her prettiness. She has clear beautiful skin because she always wears a hat to protect herself from the sun, and is always neatly dressed without being flashy. She's responsible, in a sweet way, but is never pushy or domineering. She's good tempered and helpful, and always there to support her mother. She's a conscientious worker at school, but is not at all academic or ambitious. She's healthily active, but never a tomboy. She's domestically inclined, and has demonstrated a strong maternal instinct from a very young age. She's self sacrificing and always willing to help others, but never thinks of questioning the mores and rules of her world.

The result is rather null. She's the perfect well bred young woman, but I never get a feeling of what she is when she's not fulfilling that role. It annoys me, because young girls are still pushed towards these sort of ideals, at the cost of their own mental well being.

Joey and Mary-Lou can be irritating as characters, but they are interesting, and have their own forceful personalities. Even with perfect Len you get a feeling that, taken away from the Platz, she'd blossom into an independent interesting young woman. With Peggy, you don't.
Author:  CBW [ Wed May 07, 2008 8:03 am ]
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Maybe it was because she was the eldest girl of the Bettany/Russell nursery crowd


Given Sybil's development as a small child it seems likely that the Russell nursery wasn't necessarily the centre of infant bliss it was portrayed as being.

Peggy was the eldest of a family who were left as small children to an aunt's care. Also there were Rix, Bride & Jackie, Robin, Daisy, Primula, David, Sybil and Jo herself. Even taking into account that the school age kids weren't always around that is a lot of kids for one family. (and in my experience teenagers take up more effort than babies sometimes)

As such it has to mean far less individual attention than is ideal and, again looking at Sybil, a degree of resentment at how that attention was shared out. During one of the war books someone, Daisy maybe, talks about how Madge can't be too demonstrative with her nieces because of Sybil doesn't she?

I know in overlarge school classes the loudest and most forceful tend to get the bulk of the attention and Peggy would have been fighting with the 3 boys and Sybil, all of whom were clearly much more forceful personalities. ( I can't remember much about Bride at that age)

One look at Len and also an older Sybil talking about Alie makes it clear that the oldest were expected to look out for their younger siblings so Peggy's 'perfect' persona would have been encouraged and it might also have been one way that she got attention; by being a perfect little girl.
Author:  JayB [ Wed May 07, 2008 9:06 am ]
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Quote:
Peggy's 'perfect' persona would have been encouraged and it might also have been one way that she got attention; by being a perfect little girl.


Madge said she'd have liked one sweet, domesticated daughter; I think she'd had one in Peggy. Madge was her surrogate mother for the first, what, twelve or thirteen years of her life? Peggy has a more compliant nature than Bride or any of the Russell girls; she probably picked up on what Madge wanted or expected a daughter to be and did her best to fulfil the role.

I wonder how she'd have turned out if she'd been brought up entirely by her parents. Dick and Mollie are younger, livelier and less authoritarian than Jem and Madge; she'd probably have been less 'perfect'.

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Given Sybil's development as a small child it seems likely that the Russell nursery wasn't necessarily the centre of infant bliss it was portrayed as being.


The Russell nursery is a good example of why I think it's a bad idea to keep children to nursery quarters until they're seven or eight. It's a very narrow and restricted world for children of that age, it's no wonder rivalries and jealousies emerged, the older children had very little else to occupy them.

Sybil probably wouldn't have had the problems she had if she'd gone to school at five, had companions her own age, learned to share, had her mind fully occupied with lessons, games to work off her energy, and generally had a life outside the home, and relationships with people other than her mother and siblings and cousins.
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed May 07, 2008 9:24 am ]
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I have a slightly half-baked theory that the terribly lady-like and daughterly Peggy we see, and get irritated by, at the start of Peggy is the result of someone trying too hard to be the Perfect Daughter to parents she hardly knew for most of her life. I can't imagine in the CS world that there would be any sense of a girl of her age feeling uncomfortable, even resentful, at the arrival of people she's been taught to consider of the ultimate importance, but who are all but strangers to her, so my theory is that, schooled by Madge into sweet domesticity, she over-compensates and becomes almost a parody of Dutiful Daughterliness, all big hats and pretty manners. And I also think we need to factor in Rix - if I'm remembering rightly, he's a mini-tyrant of the Die Rosen nursery from the word go, and the surrounding adults seem to think it's cute, while little Peggy fetches and carries adoringly in the background.

Perhaps we can - slightly fancifully - imagine Peggy secretly delighting in the Wintertons' minor disobediences and scruffiness because she can't let herself do that kind of thing?
Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Wed May 07, 2008 2:55 pm ]
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I think that makes quite a bit of sense. Rightly or wrongly, at a very young age Peggy was left in a foreign country with realations she didn't know, her strong-minded twin being the only familiar face. Am I right in saying they were around 3 at the time? So toddlers rather than babies with enough awareness to know what had happened to them but not nearly enough to properly understand why. She's not as strong a character as Rix is and, being naturally quite girly, probably tries to imitate whatever Madge does, as most little kids do. So it's not a massive surprise that she tries to "mother" Sybil and the others. She'll notice that adults pet her when she does that, and comment about how sweet she is, which is praise so she'll carry on. Maybe you could even argue that this is her way of making sure she does belong, making sure that these new relations won't leave her like her parents did. If she's good and quiet and does exactly what Madge tells her to do, maybe this mother will keep her. I'm not saying those would have been the thought processes, but maybe subconsciously that's something like what happened? She went trhough a lot of upheaval in her early years- India to Austria, Austria to Guernsey, Guerney to England...

And after all the stories she'd heard, of course she'd want to be a perfect Chalet School girl (but without being too forward; in the nursery doing that only lead to arguments with Sybil, who'd say her and Rix didn't "belong" anyway). If she did what she was told, got high marks, looked the part and didn't put herself forward too much then people would say "well done" on occasion and she could get on quite happily. So that by the time she's made Head Girl, she's always been the reliable one, the conscientious law-abiding one, always trying to keep people out of trouble... and has absolutely no force of personality behind it because her role has always been one of support and advice from behind, not leadership from the front. It's a shame there wasn't a more obvious leader around when she was Head Girl- she'd probably have made an excellent deputy, much as Frieda did to Jo. I don't think she's a bad Head Girl, I just don't think she's as natural in the role as a lot of them are.

Just a few thoughts!
Author:  Lisa_T [ Wed May 07, 2008 10:12 pm ]
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She may also have been hankering after all the attention she assuredly got after the measles/whooping cough debacle in Jo Returns. Wasn't Peggy quite frail after that for a time? In all honesty, despite the way Robin is babied, if I had to choose between Robin or Peggy, I'd take Robin every time. We do see flashes of character in the 'baby' - we never really see them in Peg.
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