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#1: Books: The New Chalet School Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:00 pm
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Published in 1938, this book was later split into two paperbacks - New and United. We will discuss it as one book here. There is a synopsis here. Madame buys the whole of St. Scholastika's school and it merges with the Chalet School, bringing 40 new pupils and some new staff into the CS world. A group of young children staying at a nearby guesthouse form themselves into the Mystic M gang and play lots of pranks on the Bettanys and on the school. Mlle Lepattre is still very ill in this book. The old St. Scholastika's building is to become a summer home for the Russells.

So what did you think of this book? Did you read it as a hardback, or has it always been separated into the two paperbacks for you? Why do you think EBD wrote about the Mystic M - was it to warn her young readership of what might happen if they misbehaved/were disobedient? What do you think of Joey's career at this stage in the books - she is writing The Rose Patrol in the Alps at the moment, and helping Madge redecorate the summer house, while dropping in on the school from time to time. Do you think the kidnapping of Sybil is realistic at all? Were you moved by Maria's reaction to her mother's death?

And anything else you like to bring up, please go ahead and join in the debate below Very Happy

#2: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:13 am
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This book or rather the armada copy of The New Chalet School nearly put me off reading the series at all. It is my least favourite book. That said I did like United a lot better especially the play on St Clare's roof and the Prefects evil genius (I think it was Nancy) suggest that they be made to preform it in front of the whole school. I think EBD focused too much on Joey and should have developed the other characters more.

#3: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:17 am
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I read United well before reading New, which was a bit disjointed.

Altogether, I like the second half better, with the middles' play and the stranding in the thunderstorm.

The Mystic M doesn't play well by modern standards. You have a group of ten year old hooligans engaging in nasty practical jokes, vandalism, and physical assault. In a modern setting, I'd have the police out to deal with it. Jem beating Mario is well out of line by modern standards as well.

I don't like the death scene. It seems a very cruel to do to a ten year old, however delinquent, and even after a kidnapping. She doesn't know her mother is seriously ill, much less dying, and then she is told one after another that her mother is dead, that she wanted to see them before her death, and it was Maria's own fault that they didn't get to say goodbye. True, but that kind of guilt could scar her for life - an even more extreme case of Sybil and the kettle.

Jo is a bit overly present in this book. First we have the Russells buying an old school for a summer home (just how much space did they need?) and encountering the Mystic M. Then Joey shows up to the prefects meeting to dispense advice, then we have the kidnapping episode, then Joey shows up just in time to help with the middles and the rooftop theatre adn attend the aftermath, then she goes on the trip to Salzburg with the school, then she's at the school as a Guider for the school end party.

#4: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:10 am
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I've only ever read this as two separate books - it'll probably feel very strange when I finally get round to reading it all in one go.

Jem's treatment of Mario does seem heavy-handed and over-bearing - but it was correct for the time in which it was written - then any adult was expected to discipline any child - and mario had definitely behaved badly - those pellets could have cost someone their sight had they hit an eye.

This is the book in which Miss Annersley first becomes Headmistress - and when we also learn a little more about her background when she tries to persuade Prince Balbini to tell the children of their mother's terminal illness.

I agree that Jem's telling the Balbini twins that their mother died wothout seeing them due to their own misbehaviour was cruel - but then the Princess had been his own patient, and losing a patient is always hard, and it had been his daughter that the Mystic M had kidnapped - it's no wonder he wasn't thinking straight. The scene afterwards, when Joey comforts Maria is a lovely one.

That said, Joey was rather over-present here - I know the Prefects always seem pleased to see her but, in reality, would this be the case? Surely Louise and the others would feel rather sidelined and overwhelmed by the previous Head Girl showing up? Her presence at the Middles latest was unexpected and acceptable - but why did she go on the School trip? It seems as though EBD couldn't let go. I wonder if her readers of the time were responsible for this?

Must admit I'm intrigued as to just how much room the Russells need for their 'Summer House' - taking on a building that, the term before, had housed forty girls, teaching and domestic Staff.

#5: Author: Elbee, Location: Surrey

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:09 am
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Lesley wrote:

Must admit I'm intrigued as to just how much room the Russells need for their 'Summer House' - taking on a building that, the term before, had housed forty girls, teaching and domestic Staff.

And isn't this the same building that many years later the Maynards took over and then had to extend to be able to cope with their large family? Rolling Eyes

#6: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:11 am
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This book isn't one of my favourites, I have to say. I've read it as separate books and as the combined book, and I don't know if I'm being misled by the division, but even when reading it as a whole it always seems disjointed.

EBD (and the school) really seems to be in limbo at this time. A change of Head, a bunch of new girls, the last of the original girls leaving (OK, Margia and Amy are still there but they were never moving spirits of the school in the way Joey and Co, Grizel and Juliet and the older Austrian girls were), and the Quintette being too old to be the disruptive element.

Maybe EBD was struggling a little - the Mystic M are (to me) a little vague in characterisation, maybe becuase, as outsiders, we don't see them much unless they are doing something wrong. It's hard to be sympathetic to them or understand their motivation. EBD (IMO) handles the same theme much better with Audrey and Co. in Wins the Trick - a more cohesive band of girls, better characterised, with clear reasons for their actions. But I can see why EBD adds them - she needs conflict, and something outside of the school to help bond then Saints and the Chaletians together. A common foe, if you will.

And then there's Joey and I for one quite like the fact that she's still involved. It shows continuity, and considering she lives right there, it would be harsh of her to just drop all her school friends when she left. Plus they are the only people of her age around. If anything, I would say the school takes advantage of her, a little - she seems to be unpaid teacher's assistant on the trip to Salzburg (well, on the journey, certainly). Her appointment as a guider formalises things a little. I do have reservations about the middles midnight thing, though. It would be better for the series (IMO) for the new prefects to take charge and do things on their own, and I can't see any real reason for Jo to be there. Her other dropping-in exploits I quite like - they forshadow her eventual role as unofficial big sister to all prefects - and come across mainly as her visiting her friends and giving the almost-outsiders POV as they struggle with the merger.

Hilda, I find a little strange in this book. Maybe she's still finding her feet, but leaving the Mystic M boys alone whilst taking the girls on a tour seems rather out of character to say the least...

Maybe I'm a hardhearted thing, but the Mario / Maria thing doesn't bother me in the least. It seems pretty typical of GO-ish books of the era.

Re. the use of St Scholastika's as a summer home, it does seem very large as they wander round talking about which rooms to use etc. but a private family of, what, 8+ adults and maybe 10+ children (depending how many Marie and Andreas have at this point), require an awful lot more privacy and space in their home, than a bunch of school girls and mistresses would expect at boarding school in the 1930s. Maybe.

Elbee wrote:

Lesley wrote:

Must admit I'm intrigued as to just how much room the Russells need for their 'Summer House' - taking on a building that, the term before, had housed forty girls, teaching and domestic Staff.

And isn't this the same building that many years later the Maynards took over and then had to extend to be able to cope with their large family? Rolling Eyes

It is, but IIRC the building has been split / changed in the meantime, and the bit they buy back after Jo's visit in Coming of Age isn't the whole thing...

#7: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:21 am
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New is one of my favourite books and I was thrilled when I won it on eBay as a HB a year ago Very Happy

(Although it was supposed to come with a DJ, and it didn't Sad

) The reasons I like it so much are that it shows lots of out-of-school action. I much prefer scenes with Joey as an adult in that in-between period before her marriage, than at any other point in her life - there is a sense of possibility about her character that is gone once she becomes a Mama and a Mrs Dr. The Mystic M are a little irritating (as I'm sure they would have been IRL!) but their adventures give us a chance to see more around the lake and the guesthouses and the gardens of the area. So yes, that's my main reason for liking the book.

I found the Russells' treatment of the twins horrific when they tell them that the Princess has died. Jem's beating of Mario is okay when I remember what era the book is from, but it would never be okay with me to tell a child that it was her own fault that she never got to say goodbye to her dying mother - like Jennifer said, I think this is the most awful case of sticking guilt to the child for possibly the rest of her life.

Mostly, this book is poignant for me, as it's the last one before Exile* (sniff sniff) and our last chance to grab a story of the original school in its original setting Sad

*Although Exile is not next on the list to be discussed - before we get onto Exile, there is Janie of La Rochelle, Two Chalet School Girls in India, Gillian of the Chalet School, Janie Steps In and then Exile Wink

#8: Author: Billie, Location: The south of England.

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:13 am
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I have to agree this is one of my least favourites. I was never quite comfortable about the resolution of the Mystic M affair; I think it was too harsh. It's a Tyrol book, but after Jo left school, yet she's still present as a sort of schoolgirl, sort of grown-up. It doesn't seem to quite fit as one thing or the other.

#9: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:26 am
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I find the "Mystic M" thing a bit silly - and feel very sorry for the Balbini twins. I never quite know what to make of this book, because you don't know what would've happened next had war not broken out, if that makes sense.

#10: Author: brie, Location: Glasgow, aka the land of boredom

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:14 am
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I like United but don't like New, and I can't really imagine them being one book.

I do feel sorry for Maria, although I imagine EBD's logic was that this would reform her, and make her realise why she should behave. I still think it is cruel and unnecessary though.

Joey is okay in this book, not fabulous but not her awful future self yet.

I do think she need not have been quite so involved in the school affairs though, but I suppose that would have been pretty much one of the only ways she would have had of occupying her time. I actually think it is quite a shame that Joey was condemmned to staying in the Tirol as Madge's sidekick, i think she would have had a better time(and maybe turned out a bit different) if she had been allowed to go to Belnsornia or to University. She doesn't really seem to have a lot of ambition- or be ecouraged to have a lot of ambition which is a bit of a shame.

#11: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:29 am
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I appreciate that EBD wanted to keep Joey around, but Joey's attitude - more in New House and earlier than in this - annoys me. Having said when she was 12 that she wanted to be an author, she then doesn't take the idea seriously and just falls into it when she's encouraged to expand on a story she wrote for Daisy. Other people have definite ideas about what they want to do, e.g. Simone and Mary want to teach, Margia wants to become a musician, and although Marie and Frieda hope to be housewives rather than to have "careers" at least they've got some plans for the future.

Joey just says that she needs to help Madge look after the children - which she doesn't, as Madge employs Rosa as a full-time nanny. Joey's idea just seems to be to hang around Die Rosen! However, as I said, I appreciate that that's EBD's fault for not wanting to let her go.

#12: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:37 am
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I suppose I'm looking at it from a rather modern point of view, but it seems odd to me that Joey had no problem with being kept by her sister and brother-in-law, or that they had no problem with keeping her. It seems rather out of character for the spirited, independant, go-getting Madge we first know to not encourage her sister to earn a living and have that level of independence. Joey does go on to be a published author, but it would have been far more realistic for Madge to have encouraged her to look at alternatives while she was trying to break into that world.
I've only ever read this as 2 books, and it's not among my favourites. There's nothing I really dislike, and there's nothing really special about it. Perhaps the over-reliance on Joey is part of it - so many of the group of seniors here missed out on changes for character development because Joey had to be acommodated.

#13: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:53 am
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I always think of Madge's 'independance' as stemming from necessity rather than anything else. There isn't the same need for that independance with Joey, so it isn't expected or encouraged.

#14: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:43 pm
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Mona wrote:

I suppose I'm looking at it from a rather modern point of view, but it seems odd to me that Joey had no problem with being kept by her sister and brother-in-law, or that they had no problem with keeping her. It seems rather out of character for the spirited, independant, go-getting Madge we first know to not encourage her sister to earn a living and have that level of independence. Joey does go on to be a published author, but it would have been far more realistic for Madge to have encouraged her to look at alternatives while she was trying to break into that world.

But how many older sisters of that time would tell their sisters to go out and get a job. Yes, Marie and Frieda did want to marry but they did essentially stay at home like Joey and help around the house. I don't see the difference between Joey doing it and Frieda doing it. And Joey was offered a job as Lady in waiting to Elisaveta and turned it down. Madge I don't see would be able to force her into it and Joey does write almost all day 4-5 days a week in Jo Returns so she doesn't just do it casually but puts in the time and energy and so works full time more or less

#15: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:56 pm
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Quote:

I always think of Madge's 'independance' as stemming from necessity rather than anything else.

Of course, but she seems to embrace it rather than seeing it as a burden. I would have thought she would encourage a similar attitude in her sister.

Quote:

But how many older sisters of that time would tell their sisters to go out and get a job.

That's very valid. I still think it's slightly out of character for Jo to not want more, and her ambition of being a writer seems to slip in and out when she's talking about her future. I would have expected more consistency, especially given her own personal experience of how important it can be to be able to be financially independent.

Quote:

I shall just stay at home, and help with the babies, and practice my singing. It just seems so little after the full life here

(The quote may not be entirely correct, I don't have the book to hand)

#16: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:00 pm
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I always find this an odd book as it seems to be about the people outside the school, especially at the beginning with the Mystiic M. The idea of the summer home is a rather ludicrous plot device to keep Jo around the school. Mind you, I don't blame her for wanting to be near the school. Life on the Sonnalpe would have been bleak, especially that term after Jo Returns. What would she do? A session with the children, a few hours writing and then drawing room tea with Madge playing wife of the doctor role. Madge being very repressive to Jo, nagging her to grow up etc. At least down by the lake she has companions, swimming, boating, Guides and is even on a friendlier footing with the staff on the Salzburg trip. I agree that if the war had not happened the books would have either fizzled out or have become like the Abbey books, not really school stories at all.

#17: Author: Laura V, Location: Merseyside

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:44 pm
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For me this book is very disappointing. It's the only one of the Tirol books I don't like, though I have only read New in paperback.

For me, it like EBD ran out of ideas for her chaletians and so introduced a group of outsiders for a storyline. The whole idea of this book doesn't seems to fit in with the rest of the series and I think doesn't focus enough on existing charachters. As EBD only covered 2 terms of the school year instead of all three it seems that she was starting to run out of ideas that could involve the prefects of that year (let's face it, Louise and Anne and co. could never live up to Joey Shocked

!). New is like one of the later Swiss books - not very exciting...but I'll read it anyway!

Had it not been for the outbreak of war then who knows what EBD would have happened next!?

#18: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:56 pm
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Mona wrote:

Firstly, I don't see Madge as ever wanting to earn her living. She certainly wasn't brought up to do so - she was forced into it by very unexpected financial circumstances. Yes, she loved the school, but that was just a bonus really and she gave it up with very few regrets (other than the sentimental) on her marriage. So, I can't see that Jo was ever expected to work outside the home once the Bettanys / Russells were well off again, something she had in common with many girls of her class at that time (see EBD's comments in various books about girls who didn't need to work not taking jobs from girls who really need them).

Also, at 17 going on 18, Jo is not an adult and won't be an adult (legally) for another 3 years. So, Madge and Jem (actually, Dick is probably her legal guardian, not Madge) are responsible for her, and would have seen themselves as responsible for her until she attained her majority (21 at that point, I think). I don't think they would have seen that as a burden, and I don't think Jo would have seen it as "being kept" by them, any more than any child would see living with their parents as being kept.

Another thought: I actually think all the CS girls who do have a clear idea of their futures are the unusual ones. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life when I was 18, and I think I was probably a more mature and experienced 18 year old than Jo was....

#19: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:14 pm
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I think this is the least satisfactory of the Tyrol books. There is very little of the day to day life of the school, and Jo by this time is too old for EBD's 10-14 yr old readers to identify with. I think EBD hadn't yet made up her mind how she wanted to continue the series - if, indeed, she continued it at all - whether to follow Jo into adulthood, as EJO did with her characters, or to focus on the school. The result is a bit of a mish mash.

#20: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:09 pm
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Since most people object to the way EBD wrapped up the Balbini plot, I'd like to throw open the floor to suggestions of other ways in which the Balbini twins could have been reformed. Remember that their father has no influence over them, and nor does their aunt. We don't know if their mother does (although Maria loves her mother 'passionately', it doesn't mean she would listen to her, or that a terminally ill woman would have the strength to discipline them). Many people seem to have problems with the Russells or the school interfering. So - what? How do they become responsible members of society?

#21: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:15 pm
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KB wrote:

So - what? How do they become responsible members of society?

Here are three possiblities:

1. They could be reformed in the traditional EBD way - school. They are just at the right age for it - Maria even enrols pretty soon after this book anyway. This would be along the lines of how Cornelia was reformed.

2. They could have been reformed by a near-fatal incident rather than guilt over an actual fatal one. Sybil is an example - she was reformed by the accident with Josette - Maria/Mario could have been reformed by just the kidnapping of Sybil and the trauma that they experienced as a result of that.

3. They may never have become responsible members of society in the sense that Grizel never did - she remained rebellious in spirit underneath her social exterior.

I think that the reason they didn't listen to the aunt or the father was the fault of the aunt and the father, who are distracted because of the mother's illness, and so the problems in their relationship with these two guardians is time-specific. Their relationship would have improved after the mother had died, and there was no need to burden them with the awful guilt of not being there to say goodbye to their mother because they were essentially Bad Children.

#22: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:08 am
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I think you've got to say it's down to their dad / family.

Miss Annersley tells him exactly what to do: tell the twins their mother is so ill, recognise his responsibilities to them as well as his love for her, take them to see her, spend time with them etc. becuase they do actually listen to him - we are shown that. And then despite EBD telling us of his good intentions to follow this advice, he doesn't do it becuase his wife takes a turn for the worse.

I guess it's a classic (albeit extreme) example of EBD's oft used plot line of mother / father putting their spouse first and their children second (e.g. the various mothers who leave the kids with a random cousin while they go oversees with father - who can't be trusted to look after himself), which in it's turn is a pretty accurate representation of what was seen as a prefectly normal / acceptable child rearing practices of the time (i.e. children are not the most important members of the family - that is the wage earner).

Also, it's probably a pretty accurate reflection of the way the Prince was brought up himself - by nannies and tutors etc. and not by his parents.

Of course, (a) the prince doesn't listen - or rather listens, agrees and then ignores - and (b) it's a bit late to suddenly turn in to Good Dad when Maria and Mario have been left to the staff for years. They are bound to resent him suddenly deciding to be Father, and more or less anything he does with them is going to seem like a punishment.

So, in the circumstances I'm not sure what else the Russells / the School can do other than interfere, seeing as how the twins are putting other people at risk as well as themselves.

ETA: to go back to EBD's parent removing plotlines, of course these are also staples of most children's books, as it's the prime objective of the children's author to get the adults out of the way so that the real stars of the book can get on with the adventure. So, the extreme lack of parents in kids books is not necessarily reflective of real life, but a common plot device...

#23: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:16 pm
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What do people think about Rosa's part in this? She leaves the children in the garden unsupervised. OK she was gone longer than she'd intended to be, but surely toddlers shouldn't be left unsupervised at all. Then when she gets back she just assumes Sybil is with Mamsell and doesn't go to check until after she's given the other children their milk.

#24: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:51 pm
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Didn't someone tell her that "Maria" had taken Sybil for a walk and she thought they meant Maria Marani? She really shouldn't have left Sybil outside on her own, though: you wouldn't necessarily think of kidnappers, but kids that age can easily wander off.

#25: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:20 pm
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Caroline wrote:

So, in the circumstances I'm not sure what else the Russells / the School can do other than interfere, seeing as how the twins are putting other people at risk as well as themselves.

It's the methods they use in their interferance that is the problem - the guilt they make the children feel - not the interferance itself. They could perfectly well have interfered by suggesting that the twins go to school, and by smoothing the path for Maria to enter immediately rather than wait for the start of the school year - this seems to me a gentler way of interfering, that achieves the same end, without the cruel psychological blow.

#26: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:13 pm
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I'm not disagreeing, but isn't that what Hilda tried to do when she spoke to the Prince and it didn't work? Also, I think things had rather gone beyond gentle suggestions of school (which the twins are only going to see as a punishment, as it means separating them) when the twins kidnapped Sybil...

I'm also wondering would it not be rather cruel to immediately separate the twins (from each other and from their father) after their mother's death by taking Maria into the school straightaway? Better to let them have the summer to grieve together and forgive each other....?

#27: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:32 pm
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I think we're seeing this through rather modern psychological lenses. I reckon EBD's view would have been that being made to realise that their own disobedience etc had caused them to miss seeing their mother for the last time would, indeed, have a lasting effect, but that effect would be to make them realise their responsibilities, and the lasting effect bad behaviour could have, and would make them grow into responsible adults.
I agree that Miss Annersley's advice would, if acted on, have solved the problem; the children are unlikely to have behaved in that way if they'd had any idea of the true state of affairs.

In general, I don't like the Balbini thread, but there are elements in the book that I greatly enjoy. There are some lovely staff vignettes, I love the Salzburg trip, also the pre-term staff meeting when Hilda becomes Head, Bill dashing around changing fuses and being despatched as a 'sergeant-major' to deal with the twins ... The Middles' exploits are fun, too.

#28: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:36 pm
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I wonder if in getting St Scholastika's building Madge was thinking that as well as a summer home it would be very useful for times when Dick and family would visit - there would be room for them to stay - even to have a separate establishment if they wanted. Perhaps she even thought that one day in the future Jo might marry and it would provide a home for her.

#29: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:22 pm
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It also might be a useful investment if ever they needed additional buildings for the school. They already had the Annexe - Madge might have been thinking of possible further expansion in the long term. Perhaps she was already thinking about a finishing branch?

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