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#1: Relationships: Madge & Jem Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:32 am
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Let's talk about the relationship between Madge and Jem. They meet very early in the series - both are young entrepreneurs - she is just after setting up a school and he is on the verge of setting up a sanatorium. They are from fairly similar English backgrounds. Two terms into the series, they are engaged (after meeting under exciting circumstances ie that train crash) and a year later they marry. The wedding is small and intimate and takes place in a schoolroom. Once married, Madge stops teaching although she retains control of the management and finances of the school. Jem continues to build up the sanatorium and his career skyrockets from here on in.

Their children arrive sporadically over the series - first David, then Sybil, Josette, Ailie, Kevin and Kester. They also act as full-time parents to the Bettany children (Peggy, Rix, Bride and Jackie) and after the death of Margot Venables, to the Venables children (Daisy and Primula). And there is always a ward or two around Die Rosen - some examples are the Robin, Juliet and Stacie.

So, what do you think of the way they interact with each other? The usual complaints as regards their relationship is that Madge loses her personality and Jem becomes too authoritarian but do you think this is true? Do you think they had a happy marriage? Do we ever see them having a laugh together, as we do with Jack and Joey? If Madge hadn't married Jem, what way would the series have gone - and can you think of any other suitor for her, given that the first couple of books *do* have quite a lot of men that she leans on for advice? How does their wedding compare to the other weddings in the books? Do you think Madge could possibly have kept up teaching while married, or should she have? How about young Joey's reaction to their engagement?

And anything else to do with the relationship between Madge and Jem, please do join in and discuss it here Very Happy

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:57 am
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I do find Jem rather authoritarian - for example, he is the one who goes to the School at the beginning of Exile and tells the staff that they'll have to move - but I think that that's in keeping with the standards of his class and generation, and in later years it's always Madge (or Joey!) who's consulted over school decisions. He's over-protective sometimes (all those doses!) but I suppose he meant it well. I'd love to see them having a laugh together sometimes, though - Jem seems like much more fun before he's married than afterwards! And I really wish we heard more about his family/background.

I'd like to've seen Madge carry on teaching after her marriage, but before the road linking the Tiernsee and the San was built it would have been impractical, especially as David was born within a year of her marriage and Sybil less than 2 years after David, and by the time the School was in Guernsey/Britain it would've been hard to've gone back when Hilda was established as Head. (She does teach for a while when the School's up at the Sonnalpe.)

I also think it's easy to forget that, although young Madge is presented as being fairly feisty and independent, she presumably never had any burning desire either to be a teacher or to run her own business. There's no suggestion that she worked before opening the School, which she only did because of financial necessity/the need to find a way of earning money without being separated from Joey, and had the Bettanys' guardian/trustee not got their finances "in a muddle" then presumably she'd never have worked at all.

Given that Dick seems to be a bit of a wet lettuce and that their guardian seems to've been useless, it's rather odd the way she looks to men - Herr Marani and Herr Mensch - for advice Laughing

, but she was young and inexperienced and I suppose she had to look to someone for help. Had she been in England presumably the family solicitor/accountant/"man of business" would have been on hand to ask.

I like their wedding Very Happy

. I can't think who else she might've married: With very few exceptions, EBD seems reluctant to marry major characters to people of different nationalities, and most of the men Madge met in Tyrol were (obviously!) Austrian (and Catholic - apart from Joey and Jack very few characters marry people of different religions). And it was good of Jem to take on joint responsibility for so many members of Madge's family.

It is a shame the way Madge's life becomes subsumed in Jem's - including following him abroad when he's attending conferences - but that would've been par for the course for someone from her background. EBD does try to counter it by getting Joey to say that Madge has a very full life with the W.I. and so on in later years, and there's no outward suggestion that Madge and Jem aren't happy together.

Oh dear, this is a very long waffle Embarassed

. I do really wish that we saw more of Madge and Jem, and of the two of them with their children, later on.

#3: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:42 am
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I think it's a pity Madge is married so soon and disappears from the day to day life of the school - but of course EBD didn't know the series was going to continue as long as it did and probably wanted to round Madge's story off with a happy ending.

And Madge wasn't a very young woman when she married. She was 27; if she wanted a family, she probably wouldn't have wanted to leave it much longer. And neither she nor Jem had a proper home. Madge and Joey lived at the school, and the only entirely private space they seem to have is Madge's own room. Jem has no immediate family and seems pretty rootless when we first meet him. The idea of having a settled private home probably appealed to both of them.

As Alison says, it would have been difficult for Madge to carry on teaching once she was settled up at the Sonnalpe. And back then when a woman married the expectation was that babies would come along almost immediately, so even if Madge had taught part time at first, everyone would expect that it would only be a temporary arrangement. So it was better for the school if she gave up at once so they could make proper arrangements for the new school year.

I do find Jem overbearing at times, but more so with other people than ith Madge. I did find this rather nice scene when re-reading Exploits recently. This is when a large group of girls is expected for half term:

Quote:

Meanwhile, up on the Sonnalpe, all was bustle. Madge Russell was wandering through the bedrooms prepared for the girls to make sure that everything was as it should be, while her husband was following her, grumbling at every step at the coming of the girls, to which he was looking forward as much as his wife, though he would have scorned to say so.
“They will be here in another half hour,” said Madge when they were downstairs again in the great salon.
Jem Russell groaned in answer to this remark. “Only another half hour before the enemy are on us? What have we done to be treated to this?”
Madge laughed. “Don't be so absurd, Jem! You know perfectly well that you are looking forward to it as much as I am.”
“Maynard and Humphries have the best of it,” said the doctor enviously. “Lucky fellows! They can go and bury themselves at the Sanatorium. I've got to stay here to play host and keep a hand on the reins, and see that they don't quite kill you! – Was that the phone?”
“Yes, dear. Go and answer it, and come back in a better mood.”
He got up from his chair and stalked off to the telephone.

(I'm not sure how realistic it is that a man in his forties would be looking forward to having his home invaded by a crowd of schoolgirls, however fond of them individually he might be.)

#4: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:52 am
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JayB wrote:

And Madge wasn't a very young woman when she married. She was 27; if she wanted a family, she probably wouldn't have wanted to leave it much longer. And neither she nor Jem had a proper home. Madge and Joey lived at the school, and the only entirely private space they seem to have is Madge's own room. Jem has no immediate family and seems pretty rootless when we first meet him. The idea of having a settled private home probably appealed to both of them.

Really good point. I tend to think of Madge as in her early twenties when she married but of course she wasn't. I'm not sure why I even have that picture - maybe my brain mixes her up with Joey. And I hadn't even thought of the lack of privacy she might have had at the school and how this would have affected her wanting her own home. In fact, now that you say it, one of the lasting images I have of a just-married Madge is of straightening the paintings on the walls of Die Rosen and referring to her housework as her work now.

#5: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:02 pm
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JayB wrote:

As Alison says, it would have been difficult for Madge to carry on teaching once she was settled up at the Sonnalpe. And back then when a woman married the expectation was that babies would come along almost immediately, so even if Madge had taught part time at first, everyone would expect that it would only be a temporary arrangement. So it was better for the school if she gave up at once so they could make proper arrangements for the new school year.

So true - although Madge herself optimistically thinks that she will carry on teaching for a while. Mademoiselle knows better - see this bit of Princess and whilst children aren't exactly mentionned, the subtext is there:

Quote:

Miss Bettany, having nothing to do at first, strolled out to the lake, accompanied by Mademoiselle. School-life for her was nearly over, and she had already got things as nearly into order as she could. There was little said between the two mistresses at first as they walked slowly along in the direction of Seespitz. At length Mademoiselle spoke. ‘We shall miss you next term, chérie. It will not be the same at all when you are up on the Sonnalpe and we are here in the valley.’

Miss Bettany, who had been in a brown study, woke up at this. ‘What nonsense, Elise! I shall come down at least twice a week, and I shall always be on hand when you want me. It won’t make all that difference, I can assure you!’

Mademoiselle smiled. ‘At first, I do not doubt it will be so. But later, mignonne, when the snows come and we have the winter storms, then you will not find it so easy, and we shall have to manage by ourselves.’

Madge looked sober. ‘I hate giving up the school,’ she said. ‘I sometimes wish Jem had built his sanatorium here. But the air is not nearly so good as it is up there, and he had to think of that. It’s done Mr. Denny a world of good, you know, and as soon as he comes down here he is ill again.’

#6: Author: Carys, Location: London

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:48 pm
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From what we see of Madge and Jem together I do like them as a couple especially in the Tyrol books. I do like the half term visits to the Sonnalpe, in particular Sybil's naming party-I can just imagine Madge and Jem laughing over the choices together.
In the later books we rarely see Madge and Jem together, the last scene I remember where it's just the two of them is in Highland Twins, which through a sad bit of the book is a very touching scene? There must be some other Madge and Jem later scenes surely?

#7: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:06 pm
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I can't think of any later scenes when it's just the two of them either ... surely there must be some Confused

? I appreciate that the books were meant to be about the school and not about Madge and Jem's private life, but we see so much of Joey and Jack "at home" and so little of the Russells Sad

. I'd love to see their reaction to Jem being made a baronet (or preferably see them going to the Palace Very Happy

!), or them discussing the problem of staying to Canada without David and Sybil, or making the decision to stay in Britain when the Swiss branches of the School and the San opened.

Early Madge is a lovely character, and Jem is interesting in his way - and as one of the world's leading TB specialists is really someone pretty important - and I just think it's such a shame that they're left to fade into the background whilst the Maynards take over the limelight!

#8: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:07 pm
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Does anyone know of any drabbles that deal with their relationship?

#9: Author: Carys, Location: London

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:19 pm
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I can't think of any specific Madge and Jem drabbles, there are some which deals with their relationship but they aren't necessarilly the main focus of the story. There's one which deals with their relationship after it comes out that Nell Wilson had an illegitimate daughter by Jem (before he married Madge) but I can't think of many others.

#10: Author: Amanda M, Location: Wakefield

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:49 pm
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Jennie did some wonderful drabbles about Madge and Jem and their relationship. I'm afraid I've got pregnancy brain and can't remember their titles though Embarassed

#11: Author: Pado, Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:02 pm
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I don't mind early Jem so much but once he becomes "Sir Jem" I find him irritating. On the Sonnalpe, Madge seems to be a more dignified version of what Joey eventually becomes on the Gornetz Platz - the Gracious Wife of the Great Doctor who Draws Together the Expat Community and Had/Has a Career of Her Own While Still Functioning as a Wonderful Mother and Guardian to Many, Many Children who are Less Fortunate but still of Gentle Birth.

#12: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:03 pm
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Jennie's Russell drabbles are listed in the Index Drabble-orum in St Therese's.

Carys wrote:

after it comes out that Nell Wilson had an illegitimate daughter by Jem

That's one I missed!

Edited to make sense, as Pado and I posted simultaneously!

#13: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:21 am
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Carys wrote:

In the later books we rarely see Madge and Jem together, the last scene I remember where it's just the two of them is in Highland Twins, which through a sad bit of the book is a very touching scene? There must be some other Madge and Jem later scenes surely?

Do you mean the scene in Highland Twins where Daisy has come to tell them Jack is dead? Sad

There is also the scene in Gay from China where Jem is going to take Madge and Josette out for a drive - is it just after she has sacked Miss Bubb? I thought both were lovely scenes.

I can't remember any later such scenes, but once the school moves from Plas Howell, Jem is never working nearby, and we rarely if ever see Madge other than on school territory - we don't even know where their home is once they leave The Round House.

Which is a shame.

#14: Author: Carys, Location: London

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:03 am
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Yes that was the scene I meant from Highland Twins, Crying or Very sad

Is the scence from Gay only in the HB I don't seem to remember it from the pb-I can't wait to read uncut Gay from China!

#15: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:53 am
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Yes, it's a lovely scene that was cut from the paperback edition. Here it is:

Quote:

Miss Bubb left shortly after that, and when she had gone, Madge discarded her very dignified manner and danced ca jig in the middle of the drawing-room, rather to Josette’s surprise.
‘Well, that’s the end of that!’ she told her husband, who came in in the middle of the exhibition. ‘And never again will I engage staff of any kind whatsoever at a moment’s notice. I’ve done it twice, and each time it has been a flat failure! Remember that Matron we had before we got Matey, when Jo and her gang all developed an appalling habit of shrieking at the tops of their voices? She was one. This is the other. Never no more!’
‘I’m glad to hear it,’ he retorted. ‘I’ve had a very still letter form young Lambert about the affair. He says that Gay will return on Tuesday in charge of some friends. He also requests that we shall take no further notice of her escapade. They seem to have ticked her off pretty thoroughly at home, so I’d advise you to do as he asks. I rather think they are a trifle anxious as to whether she will be taken back; but I can relieve his mind on that point. Gay deserved a good spanking; but she had a good deal of excuse. If you take my advice, you’ll tell everyone to ignore the whole affair, girls and all. That ought to make her feel small, and anxious to forget about it herself.’
‘Right you are!’ returned his wife. ‘Orders to that effect shall be issued forthwith. And now, as I feel rather tired with the effort of remaining Lady-Russell-on-her-dignity, what about a short run as far as the San. with Josette? It would do her good, and it would rest me.’
He laughed. ‘You do do mad things, Madge girl. I wish you’d try to remember that you are supposed to keep quiet for the present, and rest as much as possible. You’ve had a pretty stiff time, you know.’ ‘I’m quite fit, really. Don’t fuss, Jem! I really will be good after this. Now I’m going to get ready and fetch Josette’s things. You go and see to the car.’

#16: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:55 am
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You're probably right - it's ages since I read the paperback. The GGB version should be out soon, though.

Edited to Add: thanks, KB, for posting the snippet. I meant to do it myself, but our intranet is having a spasm and I can't access my CS transcripts.

#17: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:50 pm
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The start and finish of this scene are nice, but I'm afraid I think the middle part is an example of Jem being interfering and Madge passive. I can just about see why Tommy Lambert should write to Jem, if he didn't want to write to Miss Bubb and Gay had told him Madge wasn't to be worried. But it's not for Jem to tell Madge how to deal with Gay. That's for Madge and Nell to decide. I don't suppose he'd take kindly to Madge telling him how to run the San.

#18: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:14 pm
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I think, in this instance, that I would agree that Jem's being a bit interfering here... I would say, though, that he isn't telling Madge what to do, he is advising - advising pretty strongly, in the expectation of being agreed with, but advising all the same:

I’d advise you to do as he asks .... If you take my advice, you’ll tell everyone to ignore the whole affair

Tommy seems to be at fault, too, though - even allowing for Madge's distress over Josette, why on earth is he writing to Jem?

#19: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:19 pm
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Presumably Tommy is one of those sexist pigs who thinks that everything should be dealt with by a bloke Twisted Evil

#20: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:41 pm
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There is a part in Rescue where Sybil mentions that Jem had once pretended to be going bald to tease Madge (at the time Marie is pretending that Jack is losing his hair)

#21: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:14 pm
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Carys wrote:

I can't think of any specific Madge and Jem drabbles, there are some which deals with their relationship but they aren't necessarilly the main focus of the story. There's one which deals with their relationship after it comes out that Nell Wilson had an illegitimate daughter by Jem (before he married Madge) but I can't think of many others.

At what age???

ETA read that wrong - thought Nell was Jem's illegitimate daughter!

I like the Madge and Jem relationship. I don't find Jem all that authoritarian. The snippet from China is IMO EBD's way of doing exposition - though it would have been better if it had come from Madge. It reminds me of the scene in Shocks where Jack advises Hilda. But, EBD was a product of her time. And, would we take umbrage at the giving of advice if it was done by a woman? Or is it simply because it's a man?

Think that snippet also shows that Madge is not going to be bossed. She practically ignores Jem' advice about getting rest etc and orders him out for the car. If she hadn't agreed with his ideas on the treatment of Gay, she'd have said so all right.

The scene where Madge and Jem found out about Jack's 'death', I have always found very touching. Also (though I know this has nothing to do with Madge/Jem) I love the bit where Jem says goodbye to Joey before they flee Austria.

#22: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:41 pm
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Loryat wrote:

The snippet from China is IMO EBD's way of doing exposition - though it would have been better if it had come from Madge. It reminds me of the scene in Shocks where Jack advises Hilda. But, EBD was a product of her time. And, would we take umbrage at the giving of advice if it was done by a woman? Or is it simply because it's a man?

Speaking for myself, it's because in both cases the men are giving advice in areas where they have no authority and in areas where the women to whom they're giving the advice are far better qualified to make the decisions than they are. We often criticise Joey for waltzing in and telling the staff what to do, but in her case she has at least been a schoolgirl and knows the school from the inside.

I agree that in this case in Gay it is a means of getting across some exposition, but it wouln't have required much tweaking to have it coming from Madge. As it is, Jem gives his advice without even showing Madge Tommy Lambert's letter or waiting to hear what she thinks about it. A little more two way discussion would have improved the scene for me.

#23: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:26 pm
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Caroline wrote:

Tommy seems to be at fault, too, though - even allowing for Madge's distress over Josette, why on earth is he writing to Jem?

Either Jack or Jem seem to know everyone through work or education (e.g. Mr Flower, Carola's father, etc.), so perhaps they went to school together... (Unlikely, I know, but what's the betting it would be something like that?)

#24: Author: Sarah_K, Location: St Albans

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:53 pm
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I have to say that it never really occured to me that Jem was particularly overbearing when I first read the books. Obviously now there are incidents that make me wince but I still don't think he's as bad as we paint him sometimes.

Fors starters I can't help wondering if Madge wouldn't have been very glad to have someone come and take charge. After all she never planned to run a school and, whilst she obviously enjoys it, ot's a lot of responsibility alongside Joey's delicacy. Dick doesn't ever seem to be a great support so perhaps she was more than glad to have Jem shoulder his aprt of the burden.

Also whislt I agree Madge probably knows better than him how to handle a school girl it's hardly fair to say Jem has no interest or role in the school. Any money Madge put into the school is now half anad half his, plus he's been around since the very early days and however unofficial the ties are to the San they definitely exist.

(and goodness I never really thoguht I'd be defending Jem like this Very Happy

)

#25: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:58 am
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I think I could accept that if I were to see Madge giving advice on the running of the San. Wink

#26: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:15 am
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Lesley wrote:

I think I could accept that if I were to see Madge giving advice on the running of the San. Wink

Maybe she does, and we just don't see it, because the books are about the school, not the San... Very Happy

Sarah_K wrote:

For starters I can't help wondering if Madge wouldn't have been very glad to have someone come and take charge. After all she never planned to run a school and, whilst she obviously enjoys it, ot's a lot of responsibility alongside Joey's delicacy. Dick doesn't ever seem to be a great support so perhaps she was more than glad to have Jem shoulder his aprt of the burden.

Oh yes - I definitely agree, Sarah. Madge had so much on her shoulders in the first few books - almost singlehandedly responsible for feeding and keeping herself, Joey, Mademoiselle, Juliet and Robin, in loco parentis for Grizel, solely responsible for educating more than twenty girls, dealing with and appointing staff, negotiating with her landlord, dealing with several medical crises, a kidnapping etc. Starting that school and making it a success was a heroic undertaking, and I'm sure it was a tremendous relief for her to have someone look after her for a change, rather than her looking after everyone else. If you think about it, Jem is the only person for whom Madge's wellbeing is paramount. And he certainly takes on a lot when he marries her....

#27: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:05 pm
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Here are some of Jennie's drabbles that explore Madge and Jem's relationship (sometimes in alternative ways).

The Doctor's Wife's Tale
Jem's Story
Madge and Jem Return to the Tyrol

There is also Patmac's A Seaside Romance which is a relationship Madge has with someone else, and BethC's exploration of if Madge had married Kettlewell in That Very Sweet Woman. Elle has looked at Madge and Jem's wedding night here in Jem's Perfect Wife.

On Jem's side, Beth has drabbled his proposal, as has Lottie here. Pim has written a beautiful reflection on Jem's feelings for Madge here.

ETA: and this! We inspired something! Thank you Sarah Very Happy

#28: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:09 pm
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JayB wrote:

I agree that in this case in Gay it is a means of getting across some exposition, but it wouln't have required much tweaking to have it coming from Madge. As it is, Jem gives his advice without even showing Madge Tommy Lambert's letter or waiting to hear what she thinks about it. A little more two way discussion would have improved the scene for me.

Sometimes I think that EBD just gets bored with writing certain scenes and just skims over them. Therefore, what might have been a discussion between Madge and Jem as to Gay's future at the school becomes Jem saying 'I'd advise this' and Madge agreeing because EBD wants to get onto the next bit. Smile

#29: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:02 am
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And who knows, maybe Madge appreciated someone else shouldering the responsibility for a change every now and then. That term was pretty horrific for her: first her daughter, Josette nearly dies as the result of the actions of another daughter (Sybil), deal with the anger of both her husband and sister (the two closest to her) toward her eldest daughter whom she forgives straight away but can't be with due to the health of Josette, her friends and senior mistresses at the school are extremely badly injured two months before that, she had to find another Head for the school that did seem to wreak considerable damage on both her staff and students and she then had to turn around and sack the said Head and know that by doing that Miss Wilson would be in charge and she wasn't completely fighting fit as it was. On top of all that she is pregnant with Ailie and she does tend to have her babies prematurely which would be a big deal in those days. So who knows may be it was nice to have Jem say to do exactly what she was thinking of or agreed with when she heard and for the two of them to be on the same page when they so clearly weren't in regards to forgiving Sybil. It took Matey saying something before Jem would listen not Madge. That would be bound to hurt.

#30: Author: keren, Location: Israel

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:48 am
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Alison H wrote:

I can't think of any later scenes when it's just the two of them either ... surely there must be some Confused

? I appreciate that the books were meant to be about the school and not about Madge and Jem's private life, but we see so much of Joey and Jack "at home" and so little of the Russells Sad

. I'd love to see their reaction to Jem being made a baronet (or preferably see them going to the Palace Very Happy

!), or them discussing the problem of staying to Canada without David and Sybil, or making the decision to stay in Britain when the Swiss branches of the School and the San opened.

!

Maybe someone will write some drabble snippets??

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