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#1: Book: Jo of the Chalet School Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:07 am
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In the second book of the series the school continues to grow, and starts its first full year. This is also one of the few books that covers two terms. A number of Chalet traditions are introduced, including the Chaletian magazine, the Hobbies club and the Nativity Play

It's also the book where the Robin arrives and the juniors get their own house. Mr and Miss Denny are introduced, Rufus is rescued, the Middles try Shakespean dialogue as an antidoe to slang, the school is flooded and Jem and Madge find time in all this for a courtship and engagement. Peggy and Rix Bettany are born, starting a new generation of Chalet students.

It's a rough term for Joey, with a bout of bronchitis caused by standing at the doorway in a child, three near drownings (one saving Rufus, one rescuing the Robin and one random falling in) and running away from school twice, once in the Rufus incident, and once to attend the Ice Carnival, where she sprains her ankle. She also decides to be an author.

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So, what do you think of this book? Is the Robin a good introduction to the series, or not? What do you think of Madge and Jem's courtship and engagement? Are Joey's adventures overdone? How do you like the Christmas celebration descriptions and the home life seen among the Mensches and Bettanys? Is Joey spoiled by Madge, or just over-enthusiastic?

#2: Author: brie, Location: Glasgow, aka the land of boredom

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:39 am
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I loved the Christmas scenes, I have to admit. I don't know whether they were particuliarly realistic or not, but I loved them.

I have to admit i'm a Robin fan, and I did like having her in the series, although I preferred her more grown-up ways in Guernsey and Plas Howell than her baby-ways here.

I love that this is very like the first book in that its still very cosy and small, and family-ish.

Madge and Jem's courtship didn't bother me in this book, it was only when we lost her headship that it bothered me I suppose. I don't really mind Jem's character at this point.

I have to say I liked the Shakespeare prank, I thought it was great.

Yes, it was probably an unrealistically full two terms, but what term in the CS isn't? This is probably one of my favourite books, and I also really like Joey's character here, in that she isn't one of our perfect CS heroines, she has lots of flaws.

#3: Author: Bee, Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:39 am
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This is probably my favourite book of the whole series. It's just so lovely! The school is still new enough for everything to be fresh and exciting, and while it continues to grow rapidly, it's small enough to have that same intimate feel as it did in "School At".

I don't find Joey spoiled in this book - or at least, she doesn't annoy me! Perhaps because it's still fairly new? I actually like the adventures she gets into (rescuing Rufus, falling in the lake etc.), and find her likeable and amusing. I also like her relationship with Madge and Jem, and her friendships with the girls- she is a leader, but she's not over-the-top. As Brie pointed out, she has flaws in this book, and we're not the only ones to see them.

I've always loved the Robin, although I wish she had been three or four rather than six (she did seem too young). Her and Joey's relationship is really sweet. I can see why Jo adores Robin so much, particularly as she was always the youngest and babied by Madge and Dick - now she has someone to look after herself! But I feel sorry for Grizel. Juliet has become part of Madge's family, and then the Robin comes along, so the four are really close. Madge, Jo, Juliet and Robin consider each other sisters, and Grizel sort of gets left out in the cold. I guess that contributes to the hardness of character we are so often told of?

The holiday scenes at Christmas were beautiful, although I also wonder how realistic they were. I think the Mensches (sp?) are a wonderful family - Bernhilda and Frieda are two of my favourite characters, and wish they had been featured more later on. Gisela is still Head Girl - yay! - and once again, I love getting to know lots of the girls. I also particularly like Evadne Lannis as the new girl - perhaps because she continues to play such a big role throughout the series.

I also like "Jo Of" for the introduction of the Chaletian (I'm still not keen on Jo as editor, though), the Hobbies Club and the Nativity Play. The way the girls respond so eagerly to these is so much fun to read! The flood also added some excitement... Smile

And I have to admit, I really looked forward to the Jem/Madge scenes. I've only read the paperback, so perhaps there are more in the hardback? In this book Jem is one of my favourites, and as both Jo and Madge like him so much, I thought he was the the perfect husband for Madge. I just wish he had stayed this way...

Basically, however, I love everything about this book and it's the one Chalet School book I can read it over and over again, without ever getting tired of it!

#4: Author: Bee, Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:42 am
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brie wrote:

I have to say I liked the Shakespeare prank, I thought it was great.

I meant to add that it's one of my favourites. I can't blame Jo at all for this... and it also makes me love Gisela and the prefects more, lol.

#5: Author: Sarah_K, Location: St Albans

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:42 am
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The Shakespeare prank is one of my favourites from the whole series, it shows real imagination and the Prefects deal with it brilliantly too.

I like Robin's arrival and as this is her first book her baby-ways are still sweet and it's really lovely to see Joey, the cosseted child, care for someone else so much. She's such a passionate person in these early books falling headlong into trouble but always with good intentions and I really enjoy her as a schoolgirl. (the rest we'll leave till later books *g*)

#6: Author: LizzieC, Location: Canterbury, UK

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:44 am
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I have to admit that while I enjoy this book a lot it grates on me much more than School at. The school is still small enough to feel intimate but there is a lot about the way that EBD writes about Joey's character that really niggles at me.

In School she's more of an ordinary schoolgirl with a certain delicacy. Here she's already being written about it a much more favoured way that actually makes me feel sorry for the schoolgirls she is associating with.

For example:

Quote:

Jo Bettany groaned over every one of the maths papers. ‘That was a – a – disgusting fraction!’ she proclaimed to all and sundry after the arithmetic paper.
Margia, who was standing near, opened her eyes widely. ‘Why, Joey, it was easy! It came out to 2/13!’
‘What!’ gasped Jo. ‘I say! I got 67685 / 107676!’...
...But if the paper was, as Miss Maynard characterised it, ‘disgraceful!’ her English, French, and German were excellent, and so were her history and literature, in all of which Margia was only average.

I just don't see the need for her to be compared to poor Margia like that. Again, at the Christmas concert Joey's voice is championed at least twice in a similar manner:

Quote:

was not a very strong voice, but each note was round and pure, with the bell-like quality to be found in some boy-choristors’ voices

Other people's parts are mentioned but the glory appears to be mostly Jo's and it is her voice that appears to make most impact on the audience in the concert.

Finally, the number of "Jo in Peril" scenes started to annoy me just a little bit by the time she jumped into the lake after the flood.

Having said that, the Christmas scenes are lovely, and I adore seeing how welcoming the Mensches are. I almost wish I could be present at a Christmas like that!

I didn't really notice the courtship between Madge and Jem and when I first read it in PB it came as some surprise. Rereading it now it does seem more obvious through the blushes Madge has when he is mentioned, but to my 12 year old self first reading that book the engagement appeared to come out of nowhere!

Ooh, and I enjoy seeing Jo's Elsie book when Madge reads it to Jem, a scene unfortunately cut out of the PB Sad

Just my first thoughts (very long too Sad

) - I may say even more later in the discussion Smile

#7: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:35 pm
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This, I think, is almost as good as School at -- everything is still very fresh, and so many of the things that later become a bit hackneyed -- the Christmas play, hobbies, the magazine -- are genuinely new and interesting here. Christmas with the Mensches is lovely -- like everyone else, I don't care if it's a bit too perfect, it's so nice to read about it. I love all the details such as Joey wearing a pinafore to please Frau Mensch, or Madge curtesying before die Grossmuter. Jo does have too many accidents, and the way Dr. Jem turns up for them all seems a bit OTT, but it's okay.

I, too, really enjoy the Shakespeare prank and have always liked the Austen prank in Peggy which I always assumed was a rehash of this on EBD's part.

I do think Joey gets off terribly, terribly easy about the ice carnival affair. I mean, she's disobeyed a direct fiat from the head, broken bounds, abused the staffs' trust, and incited others to go along with her! Madge tells the others that

Quote:

their behaviour had showed that they were unworthy of the trust she had given them, and said that, for the present at any rate, they were to be treated like the juniors and always have someone in authority with them.

but to Joey she merely says,

Quote:

‘I’m not going to say anything about it,’... ‘I know you are sorry, and won’t do it again, so we’ll leave it at that.

I think Madge needed to say at least a little something about what Joey had done, even if the latter is confined to bed with a sprained ankle through her own actions.

That being said -- it did strike me in a new way this read through, just how difficult it must have been for Madge and Joey to transition from the mother/sister and daughter/sister relationships to which they were accustomed, to the roles of headmistress and junior pupil. So even if Madge does play favorites, I guess I can understand why a bit better.

#8: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 1:36 pm
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I like this book too. I enjoy seeing more of the people, history and customs of the Tyrol. Evening if it isn't all accurate, it does give a depth to the book that the later ones are lacking. Reading as an adult, eighty years after the time when the book was set, one also gets a sense that this is a world that has gone forever. Madge, Jo and Robin's walk down the mountain on their way to spend Christmas at the Mensches', for example, brings it home that this all happened a long time ago. It's also beautifully described, ending with the lovely little incident with Herr Anserl.

One thing that niggles me about the Elsie book incident is, why is it Jem who points out Jo's talent? He's a doctor, not a writer Exclamation

Madge is the literature specialist, she's been teaching Joey, she knows that Jo loves to read and that she has a vivid imagination. Why hasn't it ever occurred to her? It isn't that she had noticed and just not mentioned it - there's a line to the effect that 'this was when Madge knew the family baby was going to write.'

But that's just a small niggle that I needed to get off my chest. Overall, the book is one of my favourites.

#9: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:07 pm
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I also like this book, although not as much as School At Very Happy

I agree that Jem seems to turn up a lot - I didn't notice it when I first read the book (being only about 12), but when I re-read it a couple of weeks ago I just assumed that he was so smitten by Madge that he contrived to 'happen' upon her at every opportunity.

I think that Joey, whilst still charming in this book, does have some unusual responsibility placed upon her. Having said that though, the school is still rather small - it would have been worse if there were, for example, 200 pupils and she'd been picked at fourteen to be editor. I did like her outburst at the end of the book when she thinks Jem isn't going to marry Madge. It's the sort of indignant childish declaration that my sister and I used to make whenever someone upset the other.

The Robin I find simply adorable, although I don't spend much time with younger children so I don't know how realistic her baby behaviour was. Considering however, that she'd been doted upon by both parents, perhaps she didn't have the robust carelessness of healthy children because she'd never had the opportunity to develop it (and I know how that reads - I'm not accusing her parents of neglect! Laughing

) - it's like Tom Gay never having time for dolls etc.; just a different type of learned behaviour Smile

#10: Author: Rosalin, Location: Swansea

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:48 pm
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I actually prefer this one to School at mostly due to the introduction of the Robin - one of my favourite characters - and the Christmas scenes. I like most of the out of school bits in the early books with Madge, Joey, Robin, Juliet and Grizel but the Christmas one has always stood out for me as being both exotic (snow, different traditions) and home-like.

I would find the Robin quite worrying if I knew her today but as part of the CS world I like her babyishness, and we don't see enough of her for her to start annoying me.

I also like the interactions between Joey and Madge, especially when Joey shows she's been thinking of Jem as a possible husband for Madge, but I do get a bit irritated by the amount of time Joey spends in bed as a result of mad escapades. I can think of three instances and I haven't read the book for some time, due to it living in Cornwall.

I like the size of the school here as I still feel like I know most of the pupils and Gisela has to be one of the best headgirls IMHO.

Overall this is about my third or fourth favourite of the series.

#11: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:32 pm
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I love the Christmas in Innsbruck scenes - those chapters are one of my favourite parts of the whole series! I like Robin at this stage too - it's only later on when she's a bit older that Joey's obsession with her starts to grate on me! Joey's constant illnesses/accidents get a bit much too, but I like the pranks/escapades in this, especially the Ice Carnival - we never see any of those local events/traditions in the Swiss books.

I like Jem at this point - although I do sometimes wonder how differently the School would've progressed had the San not been opened. It did recently strike me how short a time he and Madge'd known each other before they got engaged, though. I appreciate that this wouldn't've been unusual for people of their social class at that time, but even so Rolling Eyes

. And we never hear anything much about Jem's background, apart from what he mentions later when his sister turns up Rolling Eyes

#12: Author: Cath V-P, Location: Newcastle NSW

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:32 am
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This is one of my favourites, partly because the descriptions of winter are so evocative. And that Christmas is so beautifully realised, even if it is somewhat idealised as well.

I didn't find Robin too childish in this book (although later she does seem rather infantile) as it seems to me that having lost as much as she has, she might well regress a little in her daily behaviour, and cling to those around her. And of course, things like dressing herself would be rather more complicated - lots of buttons to be fastened and strings to be tied!

And the school still has that sense of intimacy and warmth, even though the juniors have their own house.

#13: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:48 am
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It's around here, or in Princess, where I begin to wonder why Madge didn't buy a choke chain for Joey. Running off from school once without telling someone would be bad enough, but she does it repeatedly - I agree the ice carnival netted too little a response. She deliberately and maliciously disobeyed Madge's direct orders and incited other girls to do the same, breaking bounds and running away from school into a dangerous situation. If I were Madge I'd have reduced her to Junior's priviliges for the rest of the term on the basis that I couldn't trust her.

I like the cozy descriptions and scenes in this book. The Robin, to me, brings up images of the proto-typical 19th century childrens lit angelic child, but in this book it seems more natural. It's four years later, when she's ten years old and *still* acts and is treated like a small child, plus the repeated insistance that 'in all her ten years she had never known anything other than the tenderest love' to emphasise how terrible it is when someone is mean to her. After four years in a boarding school, you think someone would have been mean to her at some point.

I do like seeing the way a lot of the later traditions are started - the Chaletian and the Hobbies club in particular (the recitals of the Christmas Pageant I could do without).

I find the introduction of Mr Denny interesting - there is definite worry on the part of the staff that the girls will get all sentimental with a youngish man on the staff, and insist on chaproning the class, although Herr Anserl doesn't have the same issues. The Shakespearean dialogue is lovely, and handled better than the later Jane Austen case - the girls have a point about the over enthusiastic nature of the prefects on slang, particularly given that most of the prefects are not native English speakers, and would have troubling detangling normal colloquialisms from naughtier slang.

One thing I like in the early books is the detail paid to the state of the local people - the peasants are given real, if stereotypical, personalities, and the school knows about the hardships they face, and tries to help - having to drown the puppies and shoot the dog because the family couldn't keep them is a good example, particularly Madge and Marie's reaction:

Quote:

Marie stood respectfully silent. It was not for her to speak, but she thought that if Madame had seven children to clothe and feed, and a husband who could earn money only during the summer, since he was a cowherd, she would not have been so indignant over the proposed shooting of a mere big dog who ate far more than she ought to do.

#14: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:40 am
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Reading that quote I think jennifer has an excellent point Very Happy

I started rereading the CS alongside my old Enid Blyton, and so often there are assumptions in Blyton (in particular in the Famous Five) that peasants, or local people are exactly what the middle class heroines/heroes assume them to be. I like the fact that EBD put an opposing view in (i.e. that of Marie's), to show that not everything was black and white.

#15: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:48 am
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Yes, and it makes a nice contrast to EBD's constantly saying that the Tyroleans are a simple race who go about saying, It shall be as der liebe Gott wills.

#16: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:54 am
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That attitude really got my goat at points Very Happy

Having said that though at the turn of the last century people weren't really encouraged to question their faith, so maybe it was the norm to put everything down to God's will. I know some of my friends who have devout relatives say their relatives still say that today. Equally however I am no expert on early 20th century religion, so feel free to correct! Very Happy

#17: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:55 am
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On the faith issue, I went to Tyrol in the 1990s and one thing that really struck was me the depth of religious faith in the area - I've put that really badly but you know what I mean! I'm not saying that most of the people there accept everything bad as being the will of God because I'm sure they don't, but I could sort of see what EBD was getting at, if that makes sense.

#18: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:14 am
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It's not EBD's referring to their simple devoutness that bugs me in itself -- just the way that she seems to use it as an easy descriptive marker over and over. However, as a rather lazy writer myself, I sympathize with the impulse to use whatever is quick and works. Smile

#19: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:19 am
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*cough*Eyesthathadneveryetneededglasses*cough* Very Happy

#20: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:40 am
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This is my favourite Chalet book bar none.

I love Joey as a 13 year old, learning to look out for someone younger than her, rather than being the constant baby sister. I love Christmas. I love the generally snowy, winteriness of it all, and the English girls experiencing the Alpine winter for the first time - learning to skate, learning to ski, the sleigh ride through Innsbruck, the walk to Spartz, the thaw. It's all so vivid and beautifully described.

I love the fact that the school is now up and running properly - they aren't just playing at it this term, it's for real now, and they have to grapple with real issues, like coping with a larger number of girls than expected, like end of term exams, like needing more staff, like thinking of the future.

I love that so many of the school's traditions date from this term - hobbies, the magazine, the Christmas Play, even the annual sale / end of term entertainment is discussed here, although not carried out. And I love the fact that the school is still small enough for us to know everyone by name. I wish it had stayed this size for just a little longer.

Joey's mercurial temperament and tendency to act without thinking don't bother me at all, and nor do her various runnings away. It's part of who she is, and is set up from day one. I also like the natural development of her escapades, and the differing motivations for them.

Grizel and the Tiernjoch: she doesn't think at all, it's completely spontaneous and pretty idiotic act.

Saving Rufus: there is slightly more deviousness there, as she has known about the dogs for a while and not told Madge, but again, she is mostly thoughtless.

The Ice Carnival: wilful misbehaviour egged on by her peers - a teenage rebellion.

Rescuing 'Veta: A genuine if misguided attempt to do the right thing, as they didn't initially know if Cosimo was actually Cosimo or not, and she didn't want to make a fuss if Veta's departure was actually OK.

Rescuing Robin and Corney: rescues sanctioned by older people, where Jo is taken along for local / expert knowledge / because of Rufus.

Maureen: Jo wrestles with her conscience about going at all, but there is no one else available (query: how come she can suddenly skate better than Marie - oh, because she's the heroine, right!) and it's a case of life or death.

I do agree that her punishments are slightly lenient, but really, Madge doesn't punish anyone particularly harshly (apart from Grizel), and I don't see why Jo should get punished more than the others for e.g. the ice carnival. Yes, she asked the question about it intially, but it was clear the Middles had already discussed going amongst themselves. And in the end, it's Simone's taunting that ensures they go. Jo is no doubt confined to a sofa for at least as long as the others are under increased supervision, and EBD has a habit of saying that anyone who gets ill or injured after an adventure has "effectively punished herself", so I don't really see much special treatment here....

And anyway, if there is, it is Madge's fault (maybe becuase she has just met Jem again, via Jo's bad behaviour?!?) not Joey's. So there. Laughing

#21: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:57 am
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I have a feeling that, although Madge didn't say very much to Joey after the Ice Carnival episode, she saw to it that she was left pretty severely alone - no visits from dear friends, or anything other than a rather strict invalid regime. Jo, I seem to recall, was pretty darn bored by the time she was allowed up and about again, which is why she turned to writing. And when she has a moan at Madge about how bored she is, Madge more or less says, well, it was your own silly fault, so don't grumble.

Not quoted, as my copy is in the other room!

#22: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:11 pm
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Yes - I remember that, too. And the one who undermines the punishment is actually Jem, by providing those Elsie books he had collected (for some tenuous reason Rolling Eyes

) when JO complains she's bored.

Let's have some quotes! This is what EBD has to say on the punishments meted out to the girls:

Quote:

DR Russell had been quite right when he said that Jo had made her own punishment. She had! For more than a week she was still and aching from her bruises and her sprained ankle, while any movement was a sheer agony for the first two or three days. Like most excitable children, she developed a ‘temperature’ very easily, and during those first nights she was quite light-headed, which might have alarmed her sister seriously had she not been accustomed to Jo. Then, when the worst of the bruises began to heal, and the throbbing her ankle grew less, the young rebel became decidedly bored with life.

For the sake of quietness during those first days, they had put her into the blue room which the two von Eschenaus had shared. Marie had gone to the yellow dormitory, and Wanda had had Grizel’s bed in the green, with the other seniors. The blue room was as pretty as all the others, and its windows looked out on to a magnificent view of the Briesau valley; but Joey preferred the lake, and its crowd of merry skaters, to the still whiteness of the valley, running away to the mountains. She dared not say so, for she knew it was her own silliness which had brought her to this dormitory, and all she could do was to be quiet about her likes and dislikes, and not grumble.

Very little had been said to any of them about the ice carnival affair. Bernhilda, it is true, had scolded Frieda roundly, and Wanda had followed her example with Marie and Paula; but the Head had merely informed them that their behaviour had showed that they were unworthy of the trust she had given them, and said that, for the present at any rate, they were to be treated like the juniors and always have someone in authority with them.

Quote:

As for Joey, the leader in it all, there was, of course, no need to watch her. She was tied to her bed; the other girls were not allowed to visit her except at very long intervals, and she was thoroughly bored.

‘I wish there were some fresh books to read!’ she sighed one day.

The doctor happened to be with her at the time. ‘Find it dull?’ he asked.

‘Duller than dull! I wouldn’t mind so much if I’d only something to read; but I haven’t! I’ve read all the book sin the library, and I’m tired of them. Dr Jem, can’t you lend me something?’

Dr Jem – he had told her to call him this – chuckled. ‘As a matter of fact, I can,’ he said. ‘Ever read the Elsie books?’

And then Jem provides the books. Jo is, BTW, in bed for more than a week after this escapade, which for someone who hates her bed as much as she does, must have been quite a punishment in itself. I certainly never felt that she got off lightly.

#23: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:22 pm
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I like this one even more than School At, I think. The Middles are a much more active group in the school and 'Shakesperiana' is hilarious. I also liked seeing Joey's rebellion, since probably this is the worst behaviour we get from her (except maybe her treatment of Stacie when she thinks the Robin's going to die). The Christmas scenes are lovely, and it was nice to see Frieda developing, cos in School At she was a bit dull.

Joey as 'Editress' - I didn't find this in any way problematic. She clearly was the best person for the job; out of all the older girls the only one who I can think of as possibly being able to take it on is Bette, who would have been busy with prefect duties. And after Joey resigns the post the job's given to Stacie, who is not much older than Jo was and probably had a lot more to do than Jo at twelve. It's not until Guernsey (IIRC) that the job becomes the responsibility of a prefect, which I personally didn't think was all that clever. Girls interested in the job should have been given the chance to take it on, rather than it being shoved on a prefect who half the time is voted for because her dad's in publishing. Jo and Stacie as the first two editresses probably had more to do with it than anyone, and it turned out all right! Very Happy

Joey's punishment after the Ice Carnival - again that old CS tradition of girls punishing themselves. After what Joey goes through, it would have been unnecessarily harsh of Madge to punish her further, IMO.

Jem - I liked him a lot in this book. (Come to that, I always like him Embarassed

). The courtship was sweet, and if they do get engaged very quickly, they do at least also have a looong engagement.

One of my favourite lines ever is when Jo gets up after her soaking in the ditch and Jem tells her she might be sickening for something awful and she asks 'like thrush?'. I can't see any later characters coming out with something like that.

#24: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:28 pm
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Yes, but -- there's a difference between being confined to bed and bored because of something you've done; and being scolded, publicly or privately, for your misdeeds. Jo, having declared what a beast she was, Madge decides to say nothing else.

Quote:

I’m a beast!’ declared Jo. ‘I’m awfully sorry, Madge; and it was my fault. Don’t blame the others, please!’
Madge – fresh from an interview with Simone, who had declared it to be her fault because she had taunted Joey with being afraid; and another from the other four, who had insisted that it was theirs for not opposing Joey’s plan more firmly – nearly smiled. She just stopped herself in time.
‘I’m not going to say anything about it,’ she said gravely. ‘I know you are sorry, and won’t do it again, so we’ll leave it at that.

The others involved have said more or less the same as Joey, but they end up

Quote:

weeping bitterly.

. Sitting in bed reading the Elsie books sounds much more fun!

#25: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:05 pm
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But as Caroline points out there is a lot of sitting in bed in pain for Joey before she gets her hands on the books, as well as a lot of isolation. Joey didn't need to be yelled at because she'd made her own punishment.

#26: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:43 am
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The problem with Joey is getting the message to stick - she's always genuinely remorseful after doing something stupid, but then, half a term or a term later, she does it again, and is genuinely remorseful again, but doesn't think about it *before* she runs off, or jumps into the river, or whatever.

So she runs off after Grizel without telling anyone and nearly dies of brain fever, when if she stopped to think first she could have had the support of some mountain climbing men in her search. Then she runs off to rescue Rufus and nearly drowns and has everyone spending the afternoon searching for her. Then she runs of to the ice carnival and gets a sprained ankle. Then she takes off after Elisaveta in the middle of the night, only leaving a note, and has to escape a murderous madman. Then she takes off after the Robin with Rufus and some of the other students, this time sending a maid to tell Mademoiselle where they are going, but not asking permission first either, and has to outrun a crazy man. Then she runs off to rescue students on the ice - but this time she does consider the fact that she promised Madge not to run off without telling someone - and nearly dies of pleuropneumonia.

So it takes five episodes of running off from school without asking permission first before she actually gets the message that she should ask for permission from someone in authority before taking off.

#27: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:41 am
—

Quote:

The problem with Joey is getting the message to stick - she's always genuinely remorseful after doing something stupid, but then, half a term or a term later, she does it again, and is genuinely remorseful again, but doesn't think about it *before* she runs off, or jumps into the river, or whatever.

A bit like Margot really! She was more like her mother than she knew...

Does Joey nearly drown rescuing Rufus? I only remember her and Eigne being soaked, was it cut out of the paperback?

#28: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:55 am
—

Loryat wrote:

Quote:

A bit like Margot really! She was more like her mother than she knew...

Does Joey nearly drown rescuing Rufus? I only remember her and Eigne being soaked, was it cut out of the paperback?

I don't remember any near-drowning either - in fact, does she even go into the water? I thought she got wet from a combination of torrential rain and mud, and pulled Rufus out of the water after scrambling over some rocks. But I don't think she went into the water herself.

Of course, that doesn't alter the fact that she ran off without telling anyone where she was going, and didn't really get much of a telling off, other than Madge asking her not to do so again. And she gets to keep Rufus. Rolling Eyes

I think we can conclude that Madge was actually fairly sympathetic to the motivation behind this escapade....

#29: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:46 am
—
This is one of my absolute favourite CS books and it was the first of my pb's that I replaced with an HB. I think that this is because the sense of "being there" in the Tyrol is pitched just right. I love the scenes of Christmas in Innsbruck - they were one of the reasons I wanted the hb so badly.

The writing conveys a really good sense of the school increasing in size and the reader is almost as excited about it as Madge and Jo. The characters are all still quite distinct so the new pupils do not lead to a lessening of the "family" atmosphere.

The stories in the book are well judged and fun. Although some of what were to become EBD's hoary old favourites were trundled out, at the time of writing they were newer to her and, I think, better written because of it.

Particular scenes I like:

The Christmas holidays in Innsbruck are just so charming. I have no idea how authentic they are but they feel right.

I loved that Jo was enough of a rebellious teenager (or 1930's equivalent) to go to the ice festival against Madge's express instruction, even though she and her friends grew less and less enamoured of the plan as the time drew closer. Very realistic.

I found it ridiculous that Jo caught severe bronchitis from standing in the cold air for a few seconds. I know medical knowledge was different then but surely anyone with any observational skills could have worked out that there was no connection between getting wet/cold and catching cold? Also, after her "brain fever" in "School" the reader does rather start to worry that there is going to be a life-threatening episode for Jo in every book. I found her illnesses got boring fast.

#30: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:08 am
—
I never realised Joey was supposed to have got severe bronchitis! I thought she just got a cold, and because she was delicate it was really bad. Embarassed

I know what you mean about the rebellious teen Joey. When you think about it, it's just like kids nowadays going to a party they've been forbidden to go to and then really not enjoying it when people start getting seriously drunk/drugged/amorous all around them.

#31: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:24 am
—
This is probably my favourite too. I like the contrast between the sunshine and flowers of School At and the snow and ice of this one. It's good to see the school growing slightly and the traditions of Hobbies, Magazine and Play. Also characters such as Robin and Rufus. The description of Christmas at Innsbruck is delightful and EBD at her best especially as it not from experience. The advent of Robin was not a good idea, too much the Victorian ideal of angel or fairy child. Jo's running off is a bit much for one book, though I never noticed that as a child. Her illness was useful as it did prove that she was delicate and could become ill very easily. So far we had been told that she was delicate. I always found the Robin's delicacy less convincing as she was never ill. I remember thinking how I would have loved Christmas with the Mensches, but realistically, my thirteen year old self would not have wanted to wear a pinafore, go to bed at seven-thirty, be patted on the head by Herr Mensch or have to listen in awe to Gottfried play the violin.

#32: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:56 pm
—
I actually think it was a little bit rude of Frau Mensch to put Joey in a pinafore without consulting Madge. It would have been different if Joey was staying there without Madge, but since Madge was there, she should have been asked.

#33: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:01 pm
—
I quite like the bit when Bernie and Frieda are gawping at Gottfried as if he's the most wonderful thing on earth and Joey is amused by the thought of what her own brother'd say if she ever looked at him like that Laughing

. Young Joey is so nice and normal sometimes.

#34: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:56 pm
—

JayB wrote:

I actually think it was a little bit rude of Frau Mensch to put Joey in a pinafore without consulting Madge. It would have been different if Joey was staying there without Madge, but since Madge was there, she should have been asked.

I hadn't thought about it like that, but yes, you could see that whole pinafore thing as a covert criticism of Madge's "parenting" - that Joey didn't have appropriate clothes or hadn't been made to wear appropriate clothes. Joey must have been a bit of a shock to the Menschs in some ways, with her distinct lack of unquestionning obedience!

At the very least, it was a bit interfere-y.

#35: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:24 pm
—

Tamzin wrote:

I know medical knowledge was different then but surely anyone with any observational skills could have worked out that there was no connection between getting wet/cold and catching cold?

According to a study in Wales in 2005, that's not strictly true - the cold constricts blood vessels and stops the white cells fighting infection.

But still. Joey's illness is a bit ridiculous. lol

#36: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:36 pm
—

Tamzin wrote:

I found it ridiculous that Jo caught severe bronchitis from standing in the cold air for a few seconds. I know medical knowledge was different then but surely anyone with any observational skills could have worked out that there was no connection between getting wet/cold and catching cold? Also, after her "brain fever" in "School" the reader does rather start to worry that there is going to be a life-threatening episode for Jo in every book. I found her illnesses got boring fast.

I find it interesting, though, that a similar thing happens in Jo Returns, but Jo is basically none the worse for it. Even the cod-liver oil is more in the way of a punishment than anything else. It's a good piece of writing in that it shows EBD's awareness of Jo's increasing strength.

#37: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:00 pm
—

Caroline wrote:

JayB wrote:

But wasn't Madge still asleep at the time? I always read it as Frau Mensch's daughters always wore them so she would just assume Joey normally did and was surprised she didn't and didn't want Joey's clothes to get dirty. If Madge was up and in the room then I could see it being rude but if she was still asleep I could understand the caring for someone else's child as you would your own until the parent was present

#38: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:32 am
—
For the bronchitis, even if exposure or cold lowered the immunity response, she would have to be infected, incubate and then show symptoms - half an hour from exposure to feverish and having trouble breathing is a problem!

Getting cold/wet => getting ill is a common belief even now. Put on a sweater or you'll catch your death of cold!

#39: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:22 am
—

Fiona Mc wrote:

Caroline wrote:

JayB wrote:

But Jo specifically says I haven't any and Frau Mensch throws up her hands in horror and goes to fetch one of Frieda's. It doesn't read to me as if Jo normally wore them but hadn't brought any with her (otherwise Jo would have said I haven't any with me...), it reads as if Jo is saying I don't own any. Particularly as they then talk about how the Robin does wear them.

I don't think Frau Mensch was rude at all, but it did strike me as a bit of an interference.

#40: Author: skye,

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:54 am
—

Caroline wrote:

I think that I agree Frau Mensch wasn't being rude or over officious. She was obviously a traditional kind of woman who expected certain kinds of behaviour from the girls. I think that Madge would have the kindness to respect the older woman's point of view and would be glad that Joey conformed, pleasantly to her expectations. They were both guests in the house and as the old saying goes, 'when in Rome...'. I'm pretty sure that they would have shared a giggle afterwards, though!

#41: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:35 am
—
I thought the insistence on pinafores was an excellent way to help portray cultural differences between the Mensch and the Bettany families. As a guest, Joey couldn't possibly refuse to wear one without being offensively insubordinate.

Quote:

I didn’t like to say I loathed pinnies when she sent Frieda for it.

Madge doesn't seem at all bothered:

Quote:

Joey Bettany! That’s never you in a pinafore! Wonders will never cease!

Getting so cold in the doorway she couldn't warm up seems a rather minor trigger if Joey wasn't already coming down with something, but I don't think we can blame EBD for her ideas about cold and illness. It was certainly the common wisdom. In most books, the victim was caught in a storm/fell into a river/kept wet clothes on, and was ill by the next day. Even now, I think there's a lot of acceptance for the idea that one who is under environmental stress is more likely to exhibit symptoms of an infection than one who is not.

Medical quote from this week's reading Laughing

Quote:

...everybody knows it's getting feet wet that is much the most dangerous of all in catching cold. So stilts must be frightfully healthy; everyone ought to be taught to walk on them as soon as they can stand.

-Mystery Camp, Violet Methley, 1934

#42: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:12 am
—

Kathy_S wrote:

I thought the insistence on pinafores was an excellent way to help portray cultural differences between the Mensch and the Bettany families. As a guest, Joey couldn't possibly refuse to wear one without being offensively insubordinate.

I see Frau Mensch regarding both Madge and Joey as young girls, and mothering both of them a bit. Madge is only 24 at this point, and Frau Mensch would be in her 40s and has a son not much younger than she is.

#43: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:33 am
—
I'd agree with that. However, I think being treated in some ways as a younger member of the family -- especially since it's Christmas! -- would be one of the pleasures of the visit for Madge.

#44: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:02 pm
—
Have to confess to having been terribly prone to bronchitis in my youth, and it did seem to be triggered by getting my feet wet, and was practically instantaneous. Embarassed

Not logical - and I was treated by my doctor by having garlic cloves put under my feet (with socks to hold them in place - I had to hobble on my heels), which savours of witchcraft too. Strangely, my breath used to smell of garlic ... The bronchitis cleared up when I left wet Wales...

#45: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:17 pm
—
I think I was only about nine the first time I read this book and my strongest memory is of coming away from it with the biggest crush on Gottfried Embarassed

#46: Author: Woofter, Location: Location? What's a location?

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:05 pm
—
Ok personally I love this book, its one of my very favourites. I liked the school when it was really small, as said before it was more like a family. I also thought it was more different from other school stories at this point and we got to know who all the characters were.

The robin is a great inroduction to the series she is a favourite character of mine, I like her throighout the series although I think she forms more of a character later on in the series.

Madge and Jem's courtship is seems pretty short. Also Jem seems to keep appearing with abnormal frequency. I think it's really sweet that Joey seems to actually want them to 'get together', she seems to pick up on it earlier on. I think it is lovely the way she gets upset thinking Jem is marrying 'a stranger'.

Joey seems to have rather a lot of adventures. I think she catches bronchitis rather easily! I loved the Shakpearian prank. I also love the Christmas it sounds so brilliant. I like the relationships between the Bettanys and the Menschs.

#47: Author: alicat, Location: Wiltshire

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:59 am
—
I think one of the things I loved most about this was the Christmas scene and the Robin.

It was so nice to see Joey being motherly to her and I never saw her as being very babyish, just that she had not been taught to be independent, possibly because they were frightened she would overtax herself. So she only knows about playing with dolls and paper games and so on, and being read to.

and I love the descriptions of her clothes - I always imagined continental clothes as being more old fashioned than english ones so there would have been layers of buttons and tied on pinafores and things.

#48: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:30 pm
—
Another book that's a real favourite for me

Re Joey's bronchitis - I wonder if she's got asthmatic tendancies? going out into cold air can bring on an attack and once you're had a bad attack, you tend to be more susceptible to chest infections - and no antibiotics Shocked

It's still a bit of a quick onset, but may be more feasible

#49: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:01 pm
—
Dawn says -

Quote:

Re Joey's bronchitis - I wonder if she's got asthmatic tendancies?

Isnt Joey described ascoughing after running down the stairs in School At? That to me (in hindsight) speaks to me of Asthma caused by exertion!

#50: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:23 pm
—
I agree with Skye on this.

I have to say that until encountering this discussion I still thought you could get a cold from being cold. Embarassed

I know you can get hypothermia from being really cold but is that the only thing that can happen to you?

#51: Author: Gabrielle, Location: Near Paris, France

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:37 pm
—
You know, I know you can't get a cold from getting cold but sitting in the cold makes me feel like I'm getting a cold. How was that for a convaluted sentence? Very Happy

I too love the Christmas scene. I also really like the Robin in this book. It is before she gets too fragile and good for my liking and she seems like a real little girl.

#52: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:55 pm
—

Loryat wrote:

I have to say that until encountering this discussion I still thought you could get a cold from being cold. Embarassed

I know you can get hypothermia from being really cold but is that the only thing that can happen to you?

Frostbite? Or is that the same as hypothermia? And chilblains too, I think. I'm weird though, I only get chilblains in the Summer.

#53: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:21 pm
—

Kate wrote:

Loryat wrote:

I have to say that until encountering this discussion I still thought you could get a cold from being cold. Embarassed

I know you can get hypothermia from being really cold but is that the only thing that can happen to you?

Frostbite? Or is that the same as hypothermia? And chilblains too, I think. I'm weird though, I only get chilblains in the Summer.

Frostbite is when bits of you freeze - typically fingers, toes and ears. It isn't generally immediately fatal, although bad cases can lead to amputation or gangrene as a complication.

Hypothermia is when your core body temperature drops significantly, and can occur well above freezing - for example, if it's chilly and windy, and you get drenched. Early signs are uncontrollable shivering, which turns to confusion and stupor, and if it isn't treated promptly it can lead to death. Treatment involves warming the person up by whatever means possible, including stripping you and them and climbing a sleeping bag together.

The things you learn hiking in Canada...

I'm not sure about chillblains, but I think they're linked to a vitamin B deficiency.

#54: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:26 pm
—

jennifer wrote:

Treatment involves warming the person up by whatever means possible, including stripping you and them and climbing a sleeping bag together.

Ooh, what fun. Smile

*thinks of people to go hiking with* I'm not going to drag this down to the gutter any more though...

#55: Author: Vikki, Location: Sitting on an iceberg, freezing to death!!!

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:58 pm
—

Kate wrote:

jennifer wrote:

Treatment involves warming the person up by whatever means possible, including stripping you and them and climbing a sleeping bag together.

Ooh, what fun. Smile

*thinks of people to go hiking with* I'm not going to drag this down to the gutter any more though...

Okay, so if anyone wants Kate, she's off writing a letter to Hugh Laurie asking him to go hiking....... Wink

#56: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 7:42 pm
—
How well you know me, Vikki!! Laughing

*is drawing up elaborate plans as we speak...*

#57: Author: skye,

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:40 pm
—
[quote="jennifer"][quote="Kate"]

Loryat wrote:

Hypothermia is when your core body temperature drops significantly, and can occur well above freezing - for example, if it's chilly and windy, and you get drenched. Early signs are uncontrollable shivering, which turns to confusion and stupor, and if it isn't treated promptly it can lead to death. Treatment involves warming the person up by whatever means possible, including stripping you and them and climbing a sleeping bag together.

The things you learn hiking in Canada...

I'm not sure about chillblains, but I think they're linked to a vitamin B deficiency.

I can remember when I worked as a student nurse on an elderly psychiatric ward - the patients were elderly, by the way, not the ward! Though the hospital was quite old as well!)

Anyhoo, one of the old women had been dressed by the night staff and left sitting by a closed window. When we came to move her to the breakfast table she was freezing and the Charge nurse immediately realised she was hypothermic and helped us put her to bed well wrapped up. She soon recovered but I was amazed that such a thing could happen on a ward which I felt was comfortably warm.

So you don't need to travel to Canada to encounter it.

The CBB -> Formal Discussions

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