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#1: Relationships: Jack & Joey Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:38 am
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What do you think about the relationship between Jack Maynard and Joey Bettany? He knows her from a young age, they get engaged 'offstage' when she is 19 or 20 and they are married a year later, again 'offstage'. Did you see their likeness for each other coming, in say, Camp or before? Would they have gotten engaged and married in that way, had it not been for the intense war atmosphere of Exile? Why do you think that EBD never wrote their 'love-scenes' for us to read - eg the proposal scene, the marriage scene.

What about their marriage afterwards, and their parenting style. Do you think they had a happy marriage?

If their relationship had never happened, who do you think they would each have ended up with?

And any other issue to do with Jack and Joey's relationship that you were always pond'ring over, please bring it into the mix. Very Happy

#2: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:14 am
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Generally, I like their relationship. They seem to have a strong friendship between them, as well as a marriage, and despite what must be a ten year age gap, Jack never really seems that much older than her. They seem to have a pretty equal partnership for the times, and I think they are happy.

I think once we start spending time at Die Rosen, it's pretty clear that Jack likes her very much. Maybe not in And Jo so much, becuase most of her time on the Sonnalpe is taken up with Robin's illness, but certainly in Camp, Exploits, Lintons etc. And by this point Jo is, what, approaching 17 and has been witness to Juliet's romance, so I would have thought she is beginning to be ready to see men as something other than pals or father-figures.

I do wonder if the coming of the war made Jo grow up more quickly than she might have done otherwise. Her engagement is very short compared to most of the others (Madge, Juliet, etc.), although this could also be becuase Jack is already set up in his career, and they don't need to wait for any reason. Still, I think in the circumstances, Jo probably wanted to feel secure in this new relationship, and with the prospect of Jack going to fight for the Allies, it's only what a lot of other couples would have done at the time.

Who else might they have ended up with - what an interesting question! Jack could have his pick of the pretty young mistresses and nurses, probably. Maybe Miss Stewart? Or perhaps Grizel?

As for Jo, I really can't think of anyone - so few of her classmates had brothers! I wonder if she would have ended up as a school mistress or maybe the maiden aunt she always predicted she would become - having many book-children and godchildren, but no babies of her own.

#3: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:26 am
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I think we can tell that Jack's keen on her as early as Camp, and I also think that the traumatic events in Exile made Jo grow up much more quickly than she had been doing.

There's something in Exile about how Jo had originally been planning on a longer engagement than they ended up having - something to the effect of "she'd had no idea of being married for another year at least" IIRC, but I suppose that that's fairly typical of wartime relationships: my maternal grandparents got married sooner than originally intended because Grandad'd joined up, and I know/know of a lot of other couples to whom the same thing applied.

I don't like the way that Joey seems to be clinging to Jack and collapsing all over him on the way from Austria to Guernsey, rather than helping the younger girls or the injured Nell, but then she collapses all over Nell and Frieda on the way from Guernsey to England so it wasn't just with Jack! I like them together later on - especially in Rescue - but Jack does get rather over-protective sometimes.

Jack could probably've had his pick of Old Girls/mistresses had he not married Joey! I'd quite like to've seen him end up with an Austrian or French girl, maybe: there are very few mixed nationality marriages in the books. And I'd like to've seen Joey marry someone not connected with the School or the San, but I don't think that that was ever on the cards!

#4: Author: Bee, Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:23 pm
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I rather like Jo and Jack, except I wish more had been shown of their relationship prior to "Exile". Overall, their marriage seems fairly stable, and as equal as any that EBD portrays. There's a classic scene in the later books (can't remember which one, sorry!) where Jo is upset about something, so Jack orders her to make him a sandwich and coffee, because he knows it will take her mind of things... Rolling Eyes

It would have been nice to see thier relationship further developed. I loved them in "Jo to the Rescue" - they are best friends as well as a husband and wife who clearly love each other, without being too over the top about it! But after that they become farily boring, and Jo becomes too involved in the happenings of the school. Their parenting style is hard to comment on, because although it is often mentioned that their children were "trained to instant obedience", they have lots of extra help, and Jack doesn't spend a whole lot of time with the children. He handles them well, though - Margot clearly adores him, and while I think he overreacted to Mike in Joey and Co. in Tirol, I also found it realistic!

There are numoerous mentions of how dearly the two love one another (it's particularly shown when Jo thinks Jack has died in the War), but not much of this features in the books. Perhaps EBD simply felt like she couldn't do justice to things like their wedding etc., and preferred to leave it to our imaginations! After all, it's pretty clear that romantic writings (eg. Grizel's marriage proposal!) aren't EBD's forte.

As for problems in the marriage, I think in the Swiss books Jack would have grown tired of his wife's fixation with the school. I also think the triplets, once they were thirteen or so, would have been thoroughly embarrassed by their mother acting like another of their school friends! I wonder what Jack would have done about that, had the triplets appealed to him...

And I simply can't imagine either Jo or Jack with anyone else, although I do often wish Jo had made good with her "old maid" threat! Alternatively, I would have liked to see Jo travel some more, or go off to university - get the chance to meet other people, particularly other young men! - before she settled down with Jack. However, I always did want them to end up together eventually. It seems to work! Smile

#5: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:40 pm
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Most of the time, I love the relationship between Joey and Jack. I think it starts to become obvious that Jack doesn't think of her as just another girl from about Camp onwards, and although the engagement seems a bit sudden, the circumstances make it believeable that they would decide quickly. Likewise with the length of the engagement - many people married relatively quickly during the war years. Long engagements then were as much about getting to know each other as anything else, and Joey and Jack had no need for that - they already had a solid friendship of several years standing.

They closeness between them is shown very well in the books covering the war years and just after. The way the relationship is written gets a bit stale in the Swiss books, but that's true of Joey's character as well. Jack seems to be rather shoved to one side by that stage.

Looking at the relationship with modern eyes, Jack can seem a bit sexist and condescending. I never really noticed it as a child, but rereading the books as a grown up, that did strike me. Despite that, they do seem like a real couple, proper partners in the modern sense.

Something else that I never questioned on first reading was the age difference. Is it ever made clear how much older Jack is? Even if he joined the San straight from Uni, he must be at least 10 years older than Joey. Which is not a problem in the Switzerland years and just about OK when they get engaged when Joey is 20-ish. It bothers me a little now in some of the earlier books, while Joey's still at school. I try not to look at it with modern eyes, but in the context of their time and class, when it may have been more accepted. I think it is also stated in one of the books (Exile?) that Jack had made up his mind about Joey a few years before, but was waiting for her to grow up before saying anything to her.

I can't imagine Joey having married anoyone else we met in the books. I have sometimes wondered what might have happened if Jack had been killed during the war. Would Joey have remarried? And if so, who?

Last edited by Mona on Wed May 09, 2007 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

#6: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:49 pm
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I have mixed impressions of their marriage.

I think the sudden engagement and quick marriage were definitely due to the surrounding events - with no Nazis it may have taken Jo longer to notice Jack's regard. I think she subconsciously saw him as a save haven - Madge had two (then three) kids of her own, plus the four Bettany kids, Daisy and Primula and Robin, so she couldn't devote the bulk of her emotional energy to propping Joey up - but Jack could.

We see glimpses of a friendly, affectionate, teasing marriage. However, Jack is very over protective of Joey, at times placing protecting her above looking after their children. I get the impression that if Joey was sick, or frightened, or over stressed, that his children became subordinate to attending to her, and they are taught that Mamma shouldn't be troubled, even if they are upset or sick or in pain.

She matures during the war years, but regresses later. In real life I would suspect that her obsession with the school would become wearing after a while.

They are frequently held up as perfect parents, which I think is overdone. - they're good, but still have their flaws. Jack is away at work a lot, and at odd hours, but is generally good with the kids when he is there (aside from his temper, and the overprotectiveness mentioned above). Joey's insistence that she's just another schoolgirl, and her fixation on the school, would be more likely to be really embarrasing to teenage daughters, rather than appreciated. The 'instant, unquestioning obedience' thing is a bit of a laugh, given both Joey's behaviour as an adolescent, and the antics of both Margot and Mike. I also think they pile way too much responsibility on Len, based on a whole 5 minutes seniority. There is also the fact that with 11 kids, all of whom are in boarding school by age seven, with a mother's help and housekeeper and housekeeper's assistant, a lot of the parenting is done by other people. The boys, in particular, only spend Christmas and part of summer vacation with the family after they turn seven.

I think that the lack of love scenes (and the cringeworthy ones we see) were due to EBD's lack of experience in such matters, and a general inability to write good romantic dialogue. Her attempts generally come out as either weirdly flippant, or syrupy sentimental.

I'd've like to have seen Jack and Grizel together. I think his general niceness and consideration could have gone a long way to softening her prickliness, and she's independent enough emotionally to support him in trouble, rather than it being all the other way around. They were at the Sonnalpe together for several years, so they had time to get to know each other.

Joey, I'd have like to see spend some time independent before she settled down - maybe studying singing in Vienna as some of her classmates do, or taking a writing course. Basically, something that took her away from her family and the school for a few years, where nobody knew her or the Chalet school. I think it would have made her much more independent and well rounded.

#7: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:19 pm
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Alison H wrote:

I don't like the way that Joey seems to be clinging to Jack and collapsing all over him on the way from Austria to Guernsey, rather than helping the younger girls or the injured Nell, but then she collapses all over Nell and Frieda on the way from Guernsey to England so it wasn't just with Jack! I like them together later on - especially in Rescue - but Jack does get rather over-protective sometimes.

No offence but I think that's rather typically of Jo and think Lesley once described her best in her book as one of the most emphathetic people but not emotionally strong. Jem more or less says the same thing in tyhe CS and Jo when he asks Madge if Jo would be better at the Annexe cos she got so emotionally worked up all the time. Perhaps they should have taught her some self control. Jack was probably so over protective of her because it meant that he didn't have to deal with her breaking down all the time. Imagine having to deal with that every other day of the week cos your wife decided to get herself so worked up all the time and that's on top of his job which would have been stressful at the best of times. Look at her in Excitments when he had a patient die and after two hours of sleep he's sent of by Jo to sort out Matey. The poor man must have been exhausted and running around on empty all the time. That's probably partly why he can tolerate living so close to the school cos it's a nice sheltered environment for her to be in and he would get some support in caring for her. She would be exhausting to be around and married to. I think she's lucky to be married to someone who is so supportive and protective of her. That said I can see the two of them teasing each other a lot and having a good friendship based marriage. I also think they are fairly reasonable parents and aren't perfect by any means. Jack especially is shown to be human in that he can lose his temper but that his children are said to still adore him. I actually think he lost his temper with Mike so much in Joey and Co because he had his wife extremely ill throughout the term before while pregnant with twins and then had to deal with Margot and finally Mike climbing down a cliff and Joey colapsing must have been the final straw that he no wonder he exploded and at least he realised that and didn't hit Mike but kept his distance until he calmed down enough to be able to talk to him over it. It would be far worse if he had of belted him for it at least he controlled himself and waited til he cooled down. And Jem and Madge obviously realised all the pressure Jack was under and tried to get Joey to slow down and be a help and not a burden. Sorry I seem to have stood on my soapbox for awhile. That said I'll get off it now. Sorry

#8: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:27 pm
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I read the books out of order, so I always knew that Joey was going to marry Jack. Having first met them as a married couple, I just took the development of their relationship for granted.

I do think their experiences with the Nazis made Jo grow up more quickly than she otherwise would have done. Although we learn much later that she'd had the experience of the doctor at the San who wouldn't leave her alone, so she can't have been completely unaware. (And I can't understand why Jo had to be sent away to India, when Jem could have simply sacked the doctor concerned. After all it was a clear case of sexual harassment.)

Since Jack was clearly destined for Jo from the time Jo was in her mid teens, it would be interesting to know how EBD initially planned to bring them together. She didn't know that the Anschluss was going to happen.

It was reasonable for them to get married when they all had to leave Austria, since it was such a wholesale change for everyone. And with Jack going away they might not have had another chance for years.

I've always put Jack at about ten years older than Jo. Later he becomes Mollie Maynard's twin, and she's about 8-9 years older than Jo, I think.

I think they had a happy marriage - we never see them quarrelling seriously, and their conversations about day to day matters are always lighthearted and affectionate.

I don't think EBD needed to give us much more of their romance than she did. She probably knew that writing romantic scenes was not her forte, and her target readers weren't quite old enough to be interested.

#9: Author: Woofter, Location: Location? What's a location?

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:05 pm
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I think it seems a strong relationship but always wished we could know more about the engagement and wedding neither of which we are ever told about. Certainly you can see Jack's liking for Joey earlier on I'm not sure about Joey. I think the uncertainty with the anchluss and the Nazi's would definately have sped their relationship up. I think like someone has already mentioned EBD's problem was she had little or no xperience with romance and didn't know how to write about it.

They appear to have a happy marriage although Jack does end up dosing Jo a lot!! I don't think their parenting is particularly amazing, nothing wrong with it but its nothing really special. I think they don't have enough to do with the children - Anna and Rosli to look after them, sending them all of to school quite young, even the girls who are at school next door they don't seem to see awfully much of.

I'm not sure who they would have ended up with, Jack and Grizel seem like quite a good couple. I can't really imagine Jo marrying someone else and I quite like the idea of her as a maiden aunt.

My question is what was the exact age gap between them?

#10: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:22 pm
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Everyone else has summed things up pretty well, IMHO. I do wish EBD had included a little more of the romance, possibly a few scenes along the lines of Janie and Julian's exchanges from the La Rochelle series, but maybe as JayB said, she thought her audience wouldn't care.

Madge seems a bit surprised by the whole affair though -- or was she just taken aback by it coming to fruition so suddenly?

#11: Author: Sarah_K, Location: St Albans

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:25 pm
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I really like Jack and Joey's relationship (nobody say anything *glares*)

I know we don't get to see the engagement/marriage and I know we all tend to mock the SLOC speech but the first time I read that I absolutely melted because for Joey, who tends towards the overly emotinal, someone like Jack being there as a strong pair of arms and someone to distract her when life gets too much is exactly what she needs.

I think I can understand why Jack went for her too, after all she's a very attractive character in those early books and Mollie always quite liked her meaning Jack would have heard good things about her too. It is a bit weird seeing him interested in her while she's stilla t school but he does wait to say anything.

#12: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:53 pm
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I think they were destined to marry fairly early on. Frieda seems to hint at something in New House. In the Tyrol books Jack is fairly bland but they do grow into a couple. I'm glad there were no romantic scenes as EBD just uses cliches from bad novels. I think we are supposed to think they are wonderful parents ( instant obedience but oh-so-matey) and they are very good compared to some of the other horrors depicted. Jack would have had the pick of girls or staff - Rosalie Dene? Not sure about Jo unless some literary, artistic bloke settled at the Sonnalpe and as long as was at school with or fagged for Jem of course!

#13: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:26 pm
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Of course, we have to remember the age group that EBD was writing for. At that time girls of 10-14 wouldn't have been interested in romance - or at least they weren't supposed to be! Certainly no one writing at that time would have dreamt of writing more than EBD did.
Given that I think that they have a good relationship - they tease each other, and do show a very deep friendship. They are generally relaxed around their kids too, which is nice.

#14: Author: dorian, Location: Dublin

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:35 pm
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Hm. The engagement may technically be off-screen, but the "Solid Lump of Comfort" scene is pretty obviously going to lead to engagement. I never felt any lack that the actual proposal isn't shown. I admit I never spotted much previous preference on Joey's side, but EBD does drop hints on Jack's side.

I suspect EBD didn't write either the proposal or the marriage scenes because she was writing for young teenagers, who didn't (or shouldn't, perhaps, in her mind-set) want to read about "soppy stuff". And while she did describe various other weddings, none of them were of her heroine, which I suspect made the difference.

I do think they had a happy marriage. There are lots of snippets in the books showing them happy together, pleased that the other is there, missing the other, doing things for each other.

#15: Author: jo_62, Location: Northern Ireland

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:27 pm
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I was very young when I first read the books, but I always had a bit of a crush on Jack Maynard.

Embarassed

I think their relationship seems to work well for them in the books, and I reckon we just have to let go of modern sensibilities about the concept of a man of Jack's age falling for a school girl. Times and attitudes have changed.

#16: Author: Lexi, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:38 pm
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Oh I shared your crush. No need to be ashamed of it here.

I like the little details of the relationship between Jack and Joey that seem to be chopped out of the paperbacks. Having just read most of the war books for the first time in hardback, I noticed a fair bit of incidental stuff that wasn't really necessary to the plot but seemed to make the characters and their relationships a lot more interesting and vivid.

Although Jack obviously isn't around a lot in those books, I like them both best at that time period. They seem more real, and their interaction with the triplets and Stephen is lovely.

#17: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:33 pm
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JayB wrote:

Since Jack was clearly destined for Jo from the time Jo was in her mid teens, it would be interesting to know how EBD initially planned to bring them together. She didn't know that the Anschluss was going to happen.

Hmm, that's a very interesting point. I wonder if EBD moved the relationship between them forward when Jo went to India in the Missing Book (or when she got back), but then the Anschluss happened and she found a more effective way of bringing them together. It could have been one of the reasons why India was never published...

#18: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:40 pm
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That's a really brilliant deduction ... I must read Helen McClelland's book now to see if she mentions anything like this for India.

#19: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:05 am
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I have always liked the Joey/Jack relationship, mainly because they're very friendly and that's the kind of relationship I like: 'mateyness' rather than tempestuous passion with someone who, unfortunately, can't hold a decent conversation.

I like the way how, even although Joey's not emotionally very strong, she does look out for Jack. Someone mentioned above when Jack loses a patient and she sends him off to the school to collect Matey - I thought that was a good example of her seeing what he needs and acting rather than letting him wallow in self doubt. Someone else mentioned when Jack tells Joey to make him a snack cos he knows she's upset (I think it might be in Kenya) and I see this as the same thing but vice versa. Clearly, they know how to handle each other.

Because Jack is a doctor sometimes we get him playing the overbearing husband card, but it's hard to see how much of that is him being a doxtor and how much would be thee if he wasn't a doctor. Aside from this, I think they have a very equal relationship - for example, when they fly to England for Peggy's wedding Joey says she'll 'go shags' with Jack Shocked

for the price of the tickets - so Joey's clearly financially independent.

One of the things I really like about their relationship is their parental idealism and naivety in the earlier books. They don't live too near the San, for eg, because they don't want the babies' early lives to be unclouded by suffering. As time goes by I think we see the impossibility of this position dawning on them and they have to live the fact that they can't protect their kids from the harshness of the world. I don't know if EBD did it deliberately, but I like it!

I don't really agree that Joey is obsessed with the school. A lot of her good friends work there and her daughters are there, but she clearly has a life beyond it - her books, younger children and the San which, though we don't see much of it, she clearly has a lot to do with - comforting family members, visiting lonely patients etc. In the Guersey and Wales books, furthermore, she has friends outside the school - it's only on the relative isolation of the Platz that her social life seems to revolve in part around the school. Also, when you think about it, as a writer of (apparently) school stories predominantly, it is all research for her. She has to keep up with the modern school girl (in CS land anyway). And, I think people have said before that she functions as a sort of supprt teacher in the school context - I didn't phrase that very well but I meant someone who is not part of the academic staff but functions as a guidance teacher, offering comfort and support. When so many of the girls are far distant from their families, she provides a more 'homey' atmosphere.

#20: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:51 pm
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Loryat wrote:

I don't really agree that Joey is obsessed with the school. A lot of her good friends work there and her daughters are there, but she clearly has a life beyond it - her books, younger children and the San which, though we don't see much of it, she clearly has a lot to do with - comforting family members, visiting lonely patients etc. In the Guersey and Wales books, furthermore, she has friends outside the school - it's only on the relative isolation of the Platz that her social life seems to revolve in part around the school. Also, when you think about it, as a writer of (apparently) school stories predominantly, it is all research for her. She has to keep up with the modern school girl (in CS land anyway).

I think the other thing is that we are reading books about the Chalet School. Thus, we only really see Joey when she is interacting with the Chalet School and it seems as if this is all she does.

But there are vast tracts of time in each book (after she leaves the school as a student) where we don't see her at all. It may seem in some books as if she is always there, but actually that is not the case. One of these days, I must pick a book at random and establish how many times she visits the school and how many times someone from the school visits her, in the 2-3 month period that is each book / term. I bet it's a lot less than we think (apart from in exceptional circumstances like Gay from China).

Finally, I'd add that if the school and the san were a Miss Marple-ish country village, and Joey was the lady of the manor, we wouldn't think her somewhat restricted social circle was anything remarkable....

#21: Author: Dreaming Marianne, Location: Second star to the right

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:12 pm
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I think that Fiona Mc describes it really well - very perspicacious and far more articulate than I could put it! I wonder if Jo had a degree of anxiety disorder...is it "Goes to the Oberland", where she falls in a box and needs putting to bed and sedating as a result? And then needs to be confined to bed at Marie's en route? I appreciate she had a lot of children, but she also had a lot of help, and, at the end of the day - when you have children you can't just fall to bits like she does (at fairly regular intervals).

#22: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:55 pm
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Alison H wrote:

There's something in Exile about how Jo had originally been planning on a longer engagement than they ended up having - something to the effect of "she'd had no idea of being married for another year at least" IIRC, but I suppose that that's fairly typical of wartime relationships: my maternal grandparents got married sooner than originally intended because Grandad'd joined up, and I know/know of a lot of other couples to whom the same thing applied.

I know that one set of my grandparents had to get married in 1945 because they discovered that they were expecting my aunt! I think that probably happened to one or two other couples? I have always wondered if that happened to Jo and Jack. I know the timescale in "Exile" is probably out but it always felt to me as though the triplets were born soon after the marriage. However my sense of time with regards to "Exile" has always been deeply flawed because when I read it as a child I somehow failed to realise how much time passed between leaving Tyrol and the chapters set on Guernsey. I always fondly imagined that the Guernsey chapters happened a couple of weeks after the escape. It just shows how much i skim read as a kid - I basically skipped over anything that bored me which seems to have included all exposition, details of nativity plays, details of games and much of the "adventure" stuff like the Tiernjoch and Elisaveta's rescue. Basically I liked reading about day to day routine, lessons, pranks, conversations between characters, decriptions of the looks of characters, prefects meetings, prefect/Head Girl selection process and the staff gossping about the pupils! Embarassed

#23: Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:05 pm
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Quote:

However my sense of time with regards to "Exile" has always been deeply flawed because when I read it as a child I somehow failed to realise how much time passed between leaving Tyrol and the chapters set on Guernsey. I always fondly imagined that the Guernsey chapters happened a couple of weeks after the escape. It just shows how much i skim read as a kid

I did the same, Tamzin. Sometimes when we criticize EBD's lack of detail about characters or episodes I remember that and realise that I wouldn't have read the bits that didn't interest me at that age anyway!

#24: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:12 pm
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The timing's almost totally wrong for that (though it would explain it, certainly!). The Trips are born in November 1939. Joey and Jack are married in 1938 having reached Guernsey in something like May or June of 1938.

In fact, EBD says, right at the start of "The Chalet School Revives":

Quote:

Jo - no longer Jo Bettany, but for the past ten months, Jo Maynard

It's not quite clear *when* that chapter is, but given the school's ready to be up and running again by the end of August, it's probably May/Juneish - so back counting, Joey and Jack were married in Septemberish of 1938.

That'd be one hell of a pregnancy!

Ray *crosses her legs at the thought!*

#25: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:18 pm
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On the contrary - it's a perfectly normal length pregnancy......for an elephant! Wink

#26: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:21 pm
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Lesley wrote:

On the contrary - it's a perfectly normal length pregnancy......for an elephant! Wink

Sorry, Lesley, but that doesn't actually help!

Ray *is possibly going to have nightmares about where this thread's gone!*

#27: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:28 pm
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Bee wrote:

And I simply can't imagine either Jo or Jack with anyone else, although I do often wish Jo had made good with her "old maid" threat! Alternatively, I would have liked to see Jo travel some more, or go off to university - get the chance to meet other people, particularly other young men! - before she settled down with Jack. However, I always did want them to end up together eventually. It seems to work! Smile

I agree. It would have been nice to see a happy, fulfilled unmarried Old Girl. EBD always gives the impression that being an "old maid" (to use her phrase) is an unhappy state. I know that marriage was considered far more vital to a woman's wellbeing in the past but, even while that view was prevalent, there were those single women who pursued their own goals without feeling that they had lost out by mot marrying. And young Jo had just the right sort of confidence and strength to have been among their number. In fact making Jo remain single would have provided a very positive role model to readers - that of a leader among people and a girl admired for her ability to make people like her chosing to not pair up. She would exemplify the idea that single women are not that way because they have failed to attract a man or because they lack social skills or warmth. No-one could say that of Jo Bettany!

You can't tell this is a pet peeve of mine can you? I'm the ripe old age of 36 (and 6 days!) now, and have never married or had children. I actually made up my mind about this when i was about 13 and people scoffed and said that I didn't know how things would turn out. Now however when i reveal my "abnormal" state I can feel some people recoiling in a very subtle manner, as though they think I must have something wrong with me mentally (as physically I have been told I'm above average in looks though I don't think so for one second). Anyway it annoys me that I always want to shout "I've had 2 marriage proposals and turned them down" at these doubters just to prove I'm not as odd as they think! I'm obviously more conformist at heart than I thought if their opinion undermines me so much Sad

#28: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:36 pm
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But EDB does have some unmarried women who are most definitely leading fulfilled and happy lives - the mistresses at the School - and the two best role models there are Hilda Annersley and Nell Wilson.

#29: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:38 pm
—
I think Rosalie Dene was a happy fulfilled unmarried Old Girl. There's a scene in Reunion where Joey asks her about it.

Quote:

She changed the subject abruptly. "Rosalie, why is it you've never married? You're a good-looking creature; you're a good mixer; you've a sense of humour; above all, you're understanding and kind. Hasn't there ever been anyone – not anyone at all?"

Rosalie's blue eyes were like saucers. Then she went off into a peal of laughter.

"Oh, Jo! What will you say next? No, my love, there's never been anyone and I don't care if there never is. I'm quite satisfied with my present life. Remember; I have roots. Grizel loathed her stepmother and there wasn't much love lost between her father and herself. I adore Dad and my stepmother is a poppet. Oh, I don't say that if I'd stayed at home we shouldn't have got across each other. We probably should. As it is, we're real friends. I think a lot of young Peter and Robin and they're quite fond of me. In fact, believe it or not, Peter tells me all about his latest girl and even asks my advice – which I never give, incident¬ally. I've roots all right, so you stop making a bigger ass of yourself then usual and give me a few details about your plans."

As tactless as Joey was, I think this was EBD's very unsubtle way of showing that Rosalie was perfectly happy and fulfilled.

There is also Miss Ferrars in Challenge:

Quote:

Miss Ferrars got almost as joyful a reception as Miss Annersley had done. She looked her old self again and took up the reins with delight. As she told her colleagues the next evening, when they were having coffee in their sitting ¬room, she had been bored to tears during the last fortnight of her enforced holiday and was thankful to be at work again.
‘The fact is I’m a born teacher,’ she said. ‘I love it and don’t want anything else. Oh, how I’ve missed you all! Even including the young pests among the Middles!’

Mary-Lou doesn't seem to have any intentions of getting married. It would be interesting to see if she would have if the series had continued.

#30: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:00 pm
—

Lesley wrote:

But EDB does have some unmarried women who are most definitely leading fulfilled and happy lives - the mistresses at the School - and the two best role models there are Hilda Annersley and Nell Wilson.

Very true but they weren't old girls of the CS nor had we seen them growing up. I know it's a bit nitpicky but I would have liked to see a CS girl do likewise or else that EBD had written a book about Hilda and/or nell at school. Actually I would pay all the money I could get hold of to read a novel about either of those two during their schooldays.

I suppose Stacie Benson (and I imagine there are others too) does as an example of a single, fulfilled, ex-CS woman to a certain extent. However you could read her as an example of someone who had a bad start learning to live with others and had to be punished for this by not marrying, even though she did change her whole personality.

I think really that the young Jo being so emphatic that she would never marry struck a chord with me and I kind of wish she had stuck to her guns. It would have made a very strong statement for EBD's central character to have been unconventional to that extent. Actually leaving Mary-Lou unmarried would be an equally strong statement so perhaps EBD intended to do so. I think I'll believe very hard that she did from now on Very Happy

#31: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:40 am
—
I like Jack and Joey's relationship and it is hard to imagine them with anyone else, but I wonder at what point EBD decided to go ahead with the match? I don't have several of the possibly relevant books before Exile so maybe there are passages I don't remember. Even in Exile, Joey is shown initially as as being much more ambivalent or innocent about their relationship:

Quote:

He [Jack] had known Jo since her stormy youth; had seen her grow up from a mischievous imp of thirteen to charming young womanhood of nearly twenty-one; and, for the last two years, had been quite decided about what she meant to him. Whether Jo would look on things in the same light or not was another matter. She had always hated the idea that some day she must give up her childhood, and had clung to it even more than most girls. Yet she had grown up in a land where the girls marry early. Already, many of those who had been at school with her were wives and mothers. ...It was, therefore, rather surprising that she should still be so young in her outlook. But so far, Jo remained the complete schoolgirl for most purposes.

I can totally get that the coming of the Anschluss and their adventures outrunning the Nazi's would have changed everything, but it is curious to me that Joey's peers and the "grown-ups" around Joey don't seem to realize what's going on. Madge is stunned by J & J's most romantic scene to date:

Quote:

Jack Maynard gave her a shock. Holding Joey very tightly to him, he said in tones there was no mistaking, ‘ Never mind, my darling. It’s all over, and Robin is safe. Just cry it all out and you’ll feel better.’
And before the stunned Madge could gasp out any ejaculation, Joey sobbed, ‘Oh, Jack — what a — solid lump — of comfort you — are!’
After that, as lady of the house told her husband later on, the only thing she could do was ... wait with what patience she could assume for a full account of the story when, to quote herself, ‘Jack and Jo should have come to their common or garden senses.’

She certainly doesn't seem thrilled or to be thinking, "At last -- the penny has dropped for Jo.". Grizel is also disbelieving.

It all seems quite a contrast with Madge and Jem's romance where Joey seems aware from a very early stage that something is up. During the flood, she asks Madge if she doesn't wish that Dr. Jem was there. She is furious on Madge's behalf when she thinks that Jem is going to marry someone else. And there a few lovely scenes of Madge daydreaming about her future. But Jack and Joey's romance seems to come much more abruptly. I wonder if EBD was hedging her bets, waiting to see if Gottfried or some other young man would step into the breach?

*Maeve, who obviously has way too much time on her hands this lovely Saturday morning*

#32: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:07 am
—
There are scenes in Camp that indicate that Jack, at least, views Joey as more than just a chum. And Frieda I think recognises it in one of the books while they are still at School. It does seem strange that Madge doesn't realise - perhaps she just didn't want Joey, her 'baby' to grow up?

#33: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:39 am
—
There's also the scene, right at the start of Lintons, where Joey and Jack meet Gillian and Joyce. That was the point, at least for me [and reading as an adult!], that I went "Aha!" There are one or two other hints scattered through the last few books of Joey's school career. It's nothing like as obviously done as the Reg/Len thing but - and here's a thought - I do wonder if, perhaps, people complained to EBD that Joey/Jack seemed to come out of nowhere and that's why she wrote the Reg/Len thing so much more obviously...

Ray *realises she'll never know the answer to that one!*

#34: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:22 am
—
It was Marie von Eschenau who seemed to've sussed it out IIRC - Jo said that she couldn't imagine getting married and that anyway she didn't "know anyone" and Marie gave her a "funny little smile" and said "Don't you?". I also got the impression in Camp that Jem had realised that Jack liked Joey even if the feeling wasn't yet mutual: he and Jack turned up together and Joey met them, and Jem said something like "Haven't you got anything pretty to say to Jack?" Very Happy

#35: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:31 am
—

Tamzin wrote:

Lesley wrote:

Very true but they weren't old girls of the CS nor had we seen them growing up. I know it's a bit nitpicky but I would have liked to see a CS girl do likewise...

I suppose Stacie Benson (and I imagine there are others too) does as an example of a single, fulfilled, ex-CS woman to a certain extent.

Could one say EBD doesn't have many examples of single women who live happy, fulfilled lives away from the school?

Stacie would seem to have a very satisfying life - a succesful academic in Oxford - then we're told she's lonely and her health isn't very good, so she has to come and live on the Platz in a wing of Freudesheim. No matter how fond I was of my friends, I would not want to give up my independence to come and live in their house, in a place where I'd be completely dependent on their circle for socialising.

Quote:

You can't tell this is a pet peeve of mine can you?

I share your peeve. I live alone. I like living alone. I go out socialising quite often enough, but I like to be able to come home and shut the door on the outside world and do whatever I please without reference to someone else. Yet some people seem to think that this is cause for sympathy - that no-one would actually choose to live alone, that you only do it because you've never had a better offer, or that you're somehow abnormal for wanting to (or mean to your mother, because you've gone off and left her, which has been not-so-subtly suggested to me by some relatives).

#36: Author: Dreaming Marianne, Location: Second star to the right

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:48 pm
—
JayB, do you think that this is a specifically feminine thing - that it's considered odd to live alone and not want a family if you're a woman, but not so much if you're a man? I'm sorry to hear about the not-very-nice-comments about your mother that you've been having...doesn't sound very fair.

#37: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 8:33 pm
—

Dreaming Marianne wrote:

JayB, do you think that this is a specifically feminine thing - that it's considered odd to live alone and not want a family if you're a woman, but not so much if you're a man?

Quite possibly. Men have always had careers which required them to move away from home, and they couldn't always afford to marry. Whereas women just had jobs, and you didn't have to move away to be a typist or a shop assistant. And women were supposed to be home-makers, which doesn't quite fit with the idea of a woman living alone. Plus it was always a daughter who was supposed to stay at home to look after the ageing parents. I think some people's attitudes have taken a long time to move past that.

There always have been women who lived alone, of course, but it was usually in lodgings in someone else's house, or rented accommodation. Women owning their own homes, other than by inheritance, is a fairly new phenomenon - back in the 1960s it was very difficult for a single woman to get a mortgage, however sound her financial position.

Quote:

I'm sorry to hear about the not-very-nice-comments about your mother that you've been having...doesn't sound very fair.

Thank you. It was a good while ago, but more than one person asked me, quite insistently, if I didn't think my mother would miss me when I moved out. What was I supposed to say? If I said 'no, she won't' it made her sound uncaring; if I said 'yes, she will,' then I sounded uncaring!

#38: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:33 am
—
JayB said

Quote:

I live alone. I like living alone. I go out socialising quite often enough, but I like to be able to come home and shut the door on the outside world and do whatever I please without reference to someone else. Yet some people seem to think that this is cause for sympathy - that no-one would actually choose to live alone, that you only do it because you've never had a better offer, or that you're somehow abnormal for wanting to

I have been both married and singls through widowhood at an early age( I was only 30 when Alan died - my kids were two and four) and get thequestions still, after 20 years "wouldnt I want to get married again?" I LIKE being on my own - I can make what I want for meals, when i want them. I even like doing DIY (which I did even when Alan was alive).

#39: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:10 am
—
Actually, the whole Stacie moving to Freudsheim thing rubbed me the wrong way altogether. First we have Jack, a TB doctor, vetoing travel and exertion by Stacie. He's not her doctor, and he has only met her as an adult on occasional visits, but he's laying down the law regarding her health and life. I wonder what Stacie's doctors back in Oxford said to that.

Second, Stacie's has a job at Oxford. It's possible to travel or take a sabbatical year while at a university post, but I have trouble believing they'd let her slip out of her teaching and supervision responsiblities to hare of to the Swiss Alps for the better air for an undetermined amount of time. Plus, at the Platz she wouldn't have access to the literary journals and reference materials she would need (no internet then).

Third, and one I hadn't thought of before JayB pointed it out, would be the atmosphere of the Platz itself. There are no other academics up there - the social life is the School and the San - and the only other female doctor is one who gave up doctoring to get married a few years into her practice. She's not at a university and doesn't have other students or faculty to interact with, and I would suspect she would be shunted over to the doctor's wives section at social events.

Fourth, she is living in a couple of rooms at Freudsheim. I could see going for an extended summer visit, for rest and relaxation, but moving into the home of your old headgirl, who is known for her busybody/organising ways, plus her overbearing doctor husband could be a bit frustrating after being independent for years, particularly when expected to babysit for Joey when she has half term events and parties.

#40: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:44 am
—
Put like that Jennifer it does sound awful! There is no reason for Stacie to be lonely at Oxford with so many like-minded men and women there. She could live in College or share accommodation or buy her own place by selling the Benson property if she doesn't like it. To be in Switzerland without books would be misery for her. In fact I've always found the Platz to be a dull, claustrophobic place for all of them.

#41: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:14 am
—
I tend to look at it from a female academic's perspective to begin with - I have extended family who live in small town southern Ontario where people tend to live down the street from their parents and get married by about 23 at the latest. They like it a lot, but I'd run screaming into the cornfields within two weeks.

I also have friends who live in isolated academic environments (typically observatories) where there is a small town in the middle of nowhere and the observatory staff. That environment is better for families, but single women tend to come in for a lot of pressure to date someone there, as observatories tend to be male-heavy. This can easily lead to staying there permanently, and if the woman is on a postdoc (non permanent job, typically 2-4 years in duration) that means she has to take what's available in terms of work afterwards.

#42: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 5:59 am
—

JayB wrote:

Quote:

I'm sorry to hear about the not-very-nice-comments about your mother that you've been having...doesn't sound very fair.

My sister in law faced this a few years back. My father-in-law died about three years ago very unexpectedly and my sister in law both the youngest in the family, only daughter and the only one living at home felt she should give up on the idea of buying her own place and stay with her Mother. My mother-in-law put her foot down and insisted on her daughter going ahead with her plans. My mother-in-law has a close friend still living at home in her fifties and didn't want that for her daughter. She said to me she really misses her daughter being at home and finds it hard living on her own but doesn't regret telling her daughter to keep going with her dream of having her own place

#43: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:52 am
—

jennifer wrote:

I could see going for an extended summer visit, for rest and relaxation, but moving into the home of your old headgirl, who is known for her busybody/organising ways, plus her overbearing doctor husband could be a bit frustrating after being independent for years, particularly when expected to babysit for Joey when she has half term events and parties.

First off, I'll admit not to having read the book/s in question, but it strikes me that it might not be as awful as we're thinking. Yes, I wouldn't do it and yes, she was cut off from a lot of academia. But, if she really needed a rest then living with Joey might not at first seem such a dire idea. From reading the books Stacie seems to have had a very lonely childhood with two awful (although loving) parents. She never had the rumbunctious, noisy family life and so living amongst that and being asked to babysit (when she doesn't have any children of her own) might appeal to her. I never intend on having children, but I love looking after them Smile

Personally it's not a setup I would chose (unless perhaps I was in dire straights, and even then I'd probably only live with my sister, not a schoolfriend), but maybe it works for her. I don't know how far down the CS timeline she moves in, but maybe she moved out again a few years later after the end of the series. I certainly couldn't imagine her living with the Maynards indefinitely. Smile

*worried that she's talking as if these people existed*

#44: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:59 am
—
Didn't Stacie's housekeeper - whose name escapes me - move into the granny flat type thing that Stacie was living in as well? I'd love to know what she thought of it all

#45: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:40 am
—

Karry wrote:

JayB said

Quote:

I too love living alone. When I was in a shared flat I was longing for the day I could afford to get a mortgage and a place of my own. I still love the feeling of getting in, shutting the door and just doing as I please! My father and I both suffer from an imaginary complaint called "being out of the house for too long". By this we mean that if we spend more than a certain proportion of the day in social activities we reach a saturation point and start longing to get home to relax. We are teased about it by the family but it's real enough. I certainly couldn't cope if I never socialised but I do start longing for time alone at home when I've been going out a lot.

#46: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:37 pm
—
This is swerving OT but anyway...

I believe that Stacie could have done her work tolerably well from the Oberland. She seems to me to be working mainly on copies of primary material, that she then translates and comments on. For this, she wouldn't need to have that much secondary material, especially if it is previously untranslated stuff. Plus, doesn't she travel back to England (and indeed to lots of other places) for conferences and to check out things in libraries?

As for living with Joey, again, I think that in such a huge house, herself and Bess (isn't that her housekeeper?) could be fairly private, while still reaping the benefits of both the company of her longtime friends, and the healthy air.

*reads back to see how we got onto this Laughing

*

Ah yes, the unmarried old girls who are yet fulfilled. I think Stacie is one of these, definitely.

In answer to Maeve's post - I'm a bit shocked Madge didn't see the J&J thing coming earlier. Why is she so stunned? She has been there all along. Jem clearly saw it - did they not gossip together at all? Laughing

#47: Author: skye,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:42 pm
—

Mel wrote:

Put like that Jennifer it does sound awful! There is no reason for Stacie to be lonely at Oxford with so many like-minded men and women there. She could live in College or share accommodation or buy her own place by selling the Benson property if she doesn't like it. To be in Switzerland without books would be misery for her. In fact I've always found the Platz to be a dull, claustrophobic place for all of them.

So far as I can recall Stacie had several rooms - up to four, I think, - and she was completely self-contained from the rest of the family, and didn't eat with them or sit with them. So in effect she had an apartment there where she could go and speak to Joey or just stay in her own place, depending on how she felt.

I can't imagine for a second that Stacie wouldn't have her books with her. Professor Richardson certainly took his with him when he went on holiday and I doubt that Stacie would move in with Joey and not take at least her favourite and most cherished books.

As for the Platz I don't think we know sufficient about the adult social life there to really make an informed judgement on whether or not it would be a claustrophobic place.

#48: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:07 am
—

Róisín wrote:

In answer to Maeve's post - I'm a bit shocked Madge didn't see the J&J thing coming earlier. Why is she so stunned? She has been there all along. Jem clearly saw it - did they not gossip together at all?

Maybe it was one of those things that you see, but you don't really want to accept just yet. For all of Madge's protestations that Joey should grow up, she's still J's older sister and practically raised her. Perhaps she didn't want to acknowledge that her 'baby' sister was a grown up (not that I mean this in a bad reflection on Madge - lots of people do it all the time, even my Mum does it with me... not that I'm engaged to a doctor Shocked

)

#49: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 11:57 am
—

RoseCloke wrote:

Róisín wrote:

)

The other thought is maybe Jack confided in Jem and Jem didn't want to betray a confidence

#50: Author: alicat, Location: Wiltshire

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:45 pm
—
much more likely that Jem never noticed and the 'be nice to Jack' comments were just male chauvanism.

men can be very good at not noticing emotional stuff even when its right under their noses.

#51: Author: Bee, Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:03 am
—
I try to see the best in Jem Embarassed

, so I always hoped he had picked up on Jack's feelings by Camp and was trying - subtly - to make things less awkard for Jack. Particularly when he thinks it time to change the subject, after Joey declares to Jack she will never grow up and marry!

And I actually thought Madge also may have been aware of Jack's feelings for Joey, but she was suprised by a) Jack doing something about it and b) Joey reciprocating! After all, it happened amazingly quickly, even by EBD standards. There was no hint of Joey's feelings toward Jack, or even that she considered marriage a possibility for her in the future, until that day...

#52: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:19 am
—
Even if Madge was somehow surprised or not sure of her own feelings because of thinking as Joey as a child, it's still strange to me that at no point in Exile does she (or Jem, for that matter) comment on the engagement or marriage. When Joey hears that Madge and Jem are to be married, she says:

Quote:

Oh, I am so glad! I’ve wanted it for ages! He’s such a dear—nearly nice enough for you!’

Even given Madge's different personality (and she doesn't strike me as being so buttoned up), and her possible ambivalence about her kid sister growing up (and she is keen on Joey growing up and being responsible enough to be head girl), I would have expected her at some point to say, "Oh Joey baba, I am so happy for you."

#53: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:37 am
—
But then we miss almost all the responses to Joey's engagement. I'd love to know what Robin thought, and how some of the children in the nursery would respond to the idea of 'Aunty Jo' getting married. How would some of the mistresses reply? And wouldn't you love to see what Maynie would write to her brother? The only character whose response we do get to see is Grizel's.

#54: Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:41 am
—
KB has an important thought there. There is always so much behind the scenes stuff we don't see - think how long the books would be if she gave us everything Shocked

I'd have skipped the 'soppy' bits anyway as a child and it could have put me off the books - I enjoyed the crazy adventures like going through the ice and rushing off up mountains and didn't consider them at all ridiculous then.

#55: Author: RoseCloke, Location: Camping in my housemate's room. Don't ask.

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:51 am
—
I've always considered Exile one of my favourite books, partly as Pat says, because I also liked the adventure bits. But especially because J&J get engaged. I always thought it was a turning point in the whole series, partly because of the obvious but also because now Joey's relationship with the school begins to change. Beforehand she's always been a 'big sister' or schoolgirl. Now she begins to take on the mothering role that she occupies in the later books. It's as if she were plodding along happily in one direction, then swerved off at a 90 degree angle. Maybe EBD thought that as Joey got older she wouldn't be able to play a schoolgirl role very convincingly, and so that's why she had her marry Jack.

Either way, despite some of Jack's chauvinistic (sp?) attitudes, I think the relationship works well for both of them - especially in the later books there seems to be a lot of love and affection between them. More so, I think, than is shown between couples like Jem and Madge. They also both clearly love their children to pieces, which is lovely and nice to read about Smile

#56: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:04 am
—
Would anyone know offhand a few drabbles that *do* fill in their engagement scene?

#57: Author: Lexi, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:20 am
—
If I'm remembering properly, I think Lizzie's drabble A Moment of Truth might well do - it covers most of Exile.

#58: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 2:52 pm
—
Roisin asked:

Quote:

Would anyone know offhand a few drabbles that *do* fill in their engagement scene?

and Lexi answered:

Quote:

if I'm remembering properly, I think Lizzie's drabble A Moment of Truth might well do - it covers most of Exile.

I just started reading this and it is so much fun. Great recommendation, Lexi.

#59: Author: wheelchairprincess, Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:55 pm
—
Just found this thread and dragging it back to something that was said a few pages back - with the engagement, I always thought that they had the solid lump of comfort scene and then it was just taken as read by all concerned that they would marry.

#60: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:43 am
—
That's another thing that gets me about EBD romantic scenes - in Chapter 3 you'll have a mistress having a chance meeting with a handsome young doctor who looks at her with interest. Then in the last chapter, with no intervening commentary at all, they are engaged.

Is there any example where this happens and they don't later get married?

I don't think the lack of good romantic dialogue and non 1-dimensional (in some cases nearly 0 dimensional) courtships is solely due to the age group for which she was writing, or general modesty. If you look at other authors writing for kids, even earlier ones, you do see romance more fully fleshed out.

In books Anne of Green Gables, or the Katy books, or little House on the Prarie, or Daddy Long Legs and Dear Enemy there are references to young couples going out walking or riding (before being engaged even Shocked

), kids teasing each other about crushes, girls being pursued by or even becoming involved with a man they later turn down, or men losing interest in a woman they were pursuing, flirting, and people either having a string of admirers or having to choose between several. There aren't any over references to sex, but romance and courtship and interest are out front.

By comparison, the CS approach to romance is very puritanical - girls remain totally uninterested in the opposite sex until they finish school, after which they become engaged to the first man to look at them with interest, either the brother of a friend or someone they've known for less that three months, marry and have babies.

#61: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:38 am
—
They're all American/Canadian books though. I think there was a different attitude in the UK and romance/courtship was less permissible in children's books there.

#62: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:52 am
—
It seemed to be changing by the 1950s, though. In the Sadlers Wells books you can tell whom most people are going to end up with by the time they're about 15 - but I suppose that EBD was used to writing in a more old-fashioned way.

#63: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:16 am
—
EBD herself wasn't someone who had a normal attitude to romance, sex and marriage in her own life. She was never engaged and the only two men she was ever linked with seem to have been crushes on her side that were basically unreciprocated. There's a poem she wrote about a mother and daughter that sounds like the private scene between two lovers, but it is definitely still between mother and daughter. I think she was confused about the whole thing, and this came across in her books, but she cleverly disguised it by avoiding the topic altogether.

#64: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:42 am
—

jennifer wrote:

By comparison, the CS approach to romance is very puritanical - girls remain totally uninterested in the opposite sex until they finish school, after which they become engaged to the first man to look at them with interest, either the brother of a friend or someone they've known for less that three months, marry and have babies.

As Kate says, the examples you give are all American books, and I think attitudes in the UK were quite different.

EBD's approach is very typical of English writers for girls of her era (and, effectively, her era is the Victorian era). EJO, for instance, writes about relationships in very similar ways, even when you get to the books which are about and for older girls - the Abbey Romances are, I would think, aimed at the 16-25 bracket, but it's all still written in a very oblique, off screen, sub-text-y way, because the point of the books are the relationships between the girls. The men are just ciphers, there to provide money and status and father the babies. Few of the men are actually endowed with much of a character, and EJO seems quite uninteresed in them generally - just like EBD. In fact, compared to e.g. Ken Marchwood and Jack Raymond or the Earl of Kentisbury, Jem and Jack are positively three dimensional.

There are rarely any romantic relationships in most UK school stories of 1920s and 1930s - well, not ones that I have read, anyway.

#65: Author: Woofter, Location: Location? What's a location?

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:51 pm
—

Quote:

Having just read most of the war books for the first time in hardback, I noticed a fair bit of incidental stuff that wasn't really necessary to the plot but seemed to make the characters and their relationships a lot more interesting and vivid.

I will definately need to get my hands on an uncut copy of Exile then! It always was one of my favourites!

#66: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:56 pm
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EJO's "romances" drive me mad (ETA - apart from the Karen Wilson/Rennie Brown romance in the Swiss books, which is very, very sweet Very Happy

) - some people seem to marry someone five minutes after clapping eyes on him! I forget which book it was - it wasn't an Abbey book - but a girl called Virginia got engaged to someone on about their second meeting, despite the fact that she'd been told after their first meeting that he was after someone else Confused

.

Last edited by Alison H on Fri May 18, 2007 8:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

#67: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:17 pm
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Quote:

Quote:

I will definately need to get my hands on an uncut copy of Exile then! It always was one of my favourites!

And I'm really looking forward to reading the hardbacks of Exile and Goes To It I've just acquired!

#68: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:17 pm
—

Alison H wrote:

EJO's "romances" drive me mad - some people seem to marry someone five minutes after clapping eyes on him! I forget which book it was - it wasn't an Abbey book - but a girl called Virginia got engaged to someone on about their second meeting, despite the fact that she'd been told after their first meeting that he was after someone else Confused

Margery Meets the Roses - he's Sir Gilbert Seymour, their eyes meet at a dance, they fall in love instantly, she runs away (she and her sisters have a family secret which they Can't Tell and thus she Can't Marry Him as she is Living a Lie). They haven't spoken to one another at this point - they don't even know each other's names.

I think they meet about twice more before becoming engaged Rolling Eyes

Can you tell it's one of my favourites Laughing

#69: Author: Woofter, Location: Location? What's a location?

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:11 pm
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Lexi wrote:

If I'm remembering properly, I think Lizzie's drabble A Moment of Truth might well do - it covers most of Exile.

Re-discovered this and read all the bits I hadn't yet, thanks Lexi.

Yes, that irritates me in some cases it seems if you meet a man who is single once you are destined to marry him.

#70: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:00 pm
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I've just read all this discussion and realised with a shock that Joey is actually older than my mother (who's 82) Laughing

Until my dad became too infirm to deal with all the banking issues, mum had never had to deal with the basics of finances - first her dad took care of it, then her husband did. Yes, she's good at spending money and had her own credit card and cheque book, but never learned about budgeting or long term financial planning, because that was a man's job. And I know that many women of her generation have had to learn these things, but there are many like her who haven't. So that makes Jack and Joey very contempory - her money is very definitely hers and she is in control of it (donating to the chapels, paying air fares etc) - she seems to be portrayed as quite independant for her generation.

And my dad's idea of a romantic first date - a trip to a scrapyard to source bits for his latest rally car! It makes EBD look quite romantic really Rolling Eyes

Back on topic - I think EBD did realised her limitations when it came to proposals and weddings, especially for Jo and Jack. Although I do wonder if she attended a couple of weddings while in the Tirol as both Marie and Madge's are described and seem very real.

I'd never really thought about how different it might all have been if the Anschluss had never happened - what a pity that EBD never made notes for how she saw it all going.

#71: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:40 pm
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Alison H wrote:

It seemed to be changing by the 1950s, though. In the Sadlers Wells books you can tell whom most people are going to end up with by the time they're about 15 - but I suppose that EBD was used to writing in a more old-fashioned way.

God yes. Was I the only one who fancied Sebastian? Embarassed

If you look at EB there are absolutely NO mentions of men whatsoever. I think in the last book one of the mistresses thinks that Betty and Alicia will spend all their time going to parties with boys etc, while Darrell and Sally will study...IIRC that's the only time anyone ever takes any interest in the opposite sex (except for the American girl - does she fancy a movie star?) And in the other EB books where boys and girls (in some cases in their mid teens) are all having adventures together, there is no romantic interest whatsoever. Makes a nice change in some ways (IMO there is too much romance in childrens books nowadays) but is very unrealistic!

#72: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:32 pm
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I wonder if there is a class issue as well. Montgomery and Wilder's books were mainly about farmers and small town people - Gilbert is a GP in a small town, rather than One of the Big Men on TB. And in upper class Victorian and earlier society, marriage was not necesarily about love, but more about social status, and finding someone suitable with an appropriate income. Do any of the CB folk marry someone who isn't of the right class and means? Aside from Margot Venables, of course. There's also the repeated comments about private means, and how someone who has to exist on their salary really has to struggle.

There could also be differences in time of writing too - a more conservative swing after the wars, compared to the late 19th century, or later part of the 20th century. Does anyone know anything about UK authors before about 1900, and whether it was different?

#73: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:06 am
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Ray wrote:

Joey and Jack are married in 1938 having reached Guernsey in something like May or June of 1938.

In fact, EBD says, right at the start of "The Chalet School Revives":

Quote:

Jo - no longer Jo Bettany, but for the past ten months, Jo Maynard

In The Chalet School Revives, EBD says Josette was born two months after Jo and Jack's wedding. But Josette's birthday seems to have been so thoroughly EBDed that that still gives plenty of leeway.

#74: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:16 am
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All the Russells' birthdays are like. David's birthday is variously in April, May and late June/early July, and Josette's varies between September, December and I think other dates as well Rolling Eyes

#75: Author: Gill E, Location: Monmouthshire

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:09 pm
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In Three go I believe that Josette's birthday is given as 23rd November and Joey's as the 27th November following a discussion about whether Josette would be moved up with Mary Lou and Co.

There is also a comment about Jem being pleased that Ailie was born in September since November was an expensive month for birthdays for them, which with quite a few birthdays in the next couple of weeks I particularly appreciate at the moment.

This would tie in with Joey being married in the September of 1938.

#76: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:59 pm
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In Redheads Josette's birthday is given as September:

Jo talking about Josette:

Quote:

Joey nodded. “She was fourteen months old when they arrived. She was a September baby and mine came on November 5th. I’ve always been sorry for Madge with two birthdays so close together. Ailie came along in early September, too, you may remember.

And in Three Go Josette is described as being born in November and December:

Josette talking about birthdays:

Quote:

‘Next week. The Triplets and Auntie Jo and I are all in November. When Ailie came, I heard Uncle Jack tell Daddy that he was thankful she hadn’t chosen to be two months later or the family cash couldn’t have stood the strain of so many birthdays. The Triplets’ birthday was a fortnight ago, and Auntie Jo’s is next week like mine. I’m the twenty-third, and she’s the twenty-seventh, so there’s just four days between.’

Sybil talking about Josette:

Quote:

Josette’s young for it - she isn’t nine till December

The poor Russell children seem to be the ones with the most mixed up birthdays in the clan!

#77: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 2:18 pm
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And in Kenya, Josette tells Jo Scott her birthday is in October!

The CBB -> Formal Discussions

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