Girls: Girls with Religious Vocations
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#1: Girls: Girls with Religious Vocations Author: RóisínLocation: Ireland PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:18 am
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Let's talk about girls with religious vocations. Luigia di Ferrara becomes a nun, as does Robin Humphries. Margot Maynard intends on becoming a nun and medical missionary. Tom Gay becomes a missionary in inner London. I'm sure there are others I can't think of at the moment too.

Did you expect these girls to end up in this kind of life? Was it important to EBD to show that religious vocations were an important option out there for her readers? Are there marked differences in the characters of the girls after they have taken up their vocation (compared to when they were schoolgirls)? What does her dealing with these girls tell us about EBD's attitude to religion(s) in general? How do the grown-up lives of these girls compare with the male religious figures we find in the series?

And anything else you want to say about girls with religious vocations in the series - go right ahead, join in and post below Very Happy

#2:  Author: RosalinLocation: Swansea PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:50 am
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Luigia it's difficult to comment on as I can't think of many times we see her. Robin on the other hand seems (possibly with hindsight) to always be headed for religous life. She just seems too 'good' for anything else. Although not annoyingly so, I like her as a character.

Margot's vocation feels like a slightly contrived way of reforming her. I think it could have been portrayed convincingly, but we'd have needed to see more of what she was thinking over the course of several books and how she moved towards an acceptance of it.

Tom's vocation is IMO the best written. It's in character and plays to her strenghts. There are times when she shows a more spiritual side, but she's still a normal, if tomboyish, school-girl. Possibly because Tom grows up earlier in the series, when EBD was writing better, I am much more convinced by her vocation than Margot's.

The male religious figures are rather more one-dimensional, but we don't see them as children so there's no way of appreciating how they came to their vocations. It would have been interesting to see if Charles had gone down that route as we do have some childhood escapades for him, although he does remind me of young Robin as in some ways.

EBD obviously took religious vocations seriously, but I don't feel we saw much of what led the girls to them.

My favourite one is a sixth-former (who may have been called Mary) in one of the island books. Someone (Jo?) is asking the girls what they want to do and Mary says she's going to be a nun. She's very matter of fact but quite definite. I can't seem to remember much about it Embarassed but I appreciated the way she didn't make a song and dance over it.

#3:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:03 am
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Rosalin wrote:
My favourite one is a sixth-former (who may have been called Mary) in one of the island books. Someone (Jo?) is asking the girls what they want to do and Mary says she's going to be a nun. She's very matter of fact but quite definite. I can't seem to remember much about it Embarassed but I appreciated the way she didn't make a song and dance over it.


This is the part you mean, Rosalin:

Quote:
And now, Pamela and Mary; what about you?”
“I’m going to nurse. I go to St. Luke’s in September to begin my training,” Pamela replied. “Then, unless I change my mind, I want to take up work at the San, and go all out for T.B. cases.”
Jo nodded, inwardly making up her mind to mention Pamela to Jack. She said nothing at the moment, though, but raised her eyebrows at Mary Ireson, who blushed before she spoke.
“I hope to enter a Community when I’ve had a year out of school, Mrs. Maynard. I’ve seen the Reverend Mother already, but she won’t take me till I’ve had twelve months outside. I don’t think I’ll change, though.”
Jo’s face was grave as she replied quietly: “I’m glad. We’ve had other girls who became nuns, though not very recently. Have any of you heard of Luigia di Ferrara?”
“Isn’t her name on the Honours Board at Plas Howell?” Gay asked.
Jo nodded. “It is. Did you ever look to see why it’s there, though?”
No one had, so Jo enlightened them. “Luigia was at school with me. Actually, she was a year or two older, and a prefect when I was a Middle. She entered the Poor Clares a year or so after she left school, and was received as a novice about eighteen months later. She was transferred to a German convent, and—well, she died in a concentration camp.”
Silence fell on the room. Jo watched the girls for a minute or two before she said: “You see, if you have a Call like that, you can’t ignore it. Bless you, Mary! I hope you’ll be as happy as Luigia was.”
“Thank you,” Mary replied in low tones.

#4:  Author: RosalinLocation: Swansea PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:04 am
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Thanks KB Very Happy

#5:  Author: RóisínLocation: Ireland PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:08 am
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Yes, that episode is lovely.

#6:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:16 am
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When I went to Kitzbuhel (I haven't been to the Achensee Crying or Very sad , but Kitzbuhel's also in Tyrol) one thing that really struck me was the obviously very deep-seated influence of Catholicism there, even more so than it did in Poland and Lithuania where perhaps it would be more expected. So I think that we might have seen more girls deciding to become nuns if the school'd stayed in Tyrol. I'd also've been interested to see if Charles Maynard had decided to become a priest if we'd got to see him grow up.

We don't really know either Luigia or Mary very well. With Robin, although she obviously has a lot of the qualities required of a nun, we never really get to see her making her mind up, which is a great shame because Robin as a young adult is a lovely character and it just seems as if EBD decided to write her out of the series but didn't want to take the time to cover her "exit" in more detail. Margot's decision also seems rather contrived - I agree with Rosalin that Tom's vocation is the best written.

I forget who it was now, but someone wrote a lovely short drabble about Tom being ordained once the C of E started ordaining women.

#7:  Author: LizBLocation: Oxon, England PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:54 am
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RroseSelavy wrote it - it's here.

#8:  Author: MelLocation: UP NORTH PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:57 pm
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What I don't quite understand though is how the girls knew enough about their Catholic faith to take that step. They have Scripture only as RE lessons. Luigia was older when she came to the school, so might know more, Margot had been to the convent in Canada, but I'm unsure about the other two, and about all the other Catholic girls actually. I went to a Catholic convent, so we had nuns role models and we all had quite intensive RE lessons. Something that EBD didn't really think about, as she was a convert herself as an adult.

#9:  Author: PadoLocation: Connecticut, USA PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:56 am
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I would have liked to see more about how Tom changed her mind from her early ambition to be an analytical chemist (in Tom?) to her urban missionary work. My assumption has always been that EBD simply forgot...

#10:  Author: MiriamLocation: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:17 am
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I never have any problem with that. It is quire normal to have one ambition at tw3elve/thirteen, and to completely change your plans as you get older and see what really suits you best, rather than what sounds interesting. An analytic chemist sounds intersesting and suits Tom's academic strenths (as well as sounding like a more 'masculine' career option, and would probably have been very attractive as a young girl. As she mtured however, she would see that there was more than just academics involved in her career chioces, and that her final chioce was more fulfilling.

It is a pity that we never get to see her thinking the whole thing through,and coming to a conclusion (possibly over a few books), but it is also in character for Tom. She is not someone who does a lot of talking about more personal matters, and on such a big decision I would not expect her to chatter about it until she was very sure.

We don't see most of these character as adults, but the glimpse we get of Robin in Adrienne is in character. She has grown and matured (as would be expected even without being a nun) but she is very clearly the same person - and equally clearly happy in her vocation.

#11:  Author: TiffanyLocation: Is this a duck I see behind me? PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:00 pm
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I think I agree with you about Tom's vocation being the best-written: one of her tomboy characteristics is that she doesn't talk baout feelings or emotions, she just gets on very practically and does things. I would expect Margot and Robin to spend more time talking things through with friends / older girls / priests.

I think Margot's vocation could be very plausibly done - she's very headstrong, violent almost, and when she decides something that big you'd expect there to be fireworks around it. I'd very much like to see her as a nun, actually: to see her struggles with obedience and acceptance, to see her becoming the person she should be...

How relevant would a religious life have been to most of the readers by the time of the Swiss books? Was EBD trying to open the girls' eyes to something they wouldn't have thought of? If she felt strongly herslef about faith, she might want to spread the word: but if so, it's interesting which characters she picked. Margot's not a character we're meant to look up to, though Robin is. Hmmm.

#12:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:23 pm
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I'm not a Catholic, but I did go to a Catholic primary school that was attached to a convent and was taught by nuns, so nuns and Catholicism generally were part of RL for me. So when I first read about Margot's vocation it wasn't a totally unfamilar concept and didn't at the time seem anachronistic. (I read the later books in my teens, as they were published). I'd be interested in hearing from people who had no RL knowledge or experience of nuns or Catholicism. Did it seem weird to read about a (relatively) contemporary girl like Margot becoming a nun?

#13:  Author: RacheljLocation: Surrey PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:37 pm
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Tiffany wrote:
Margot's not a character we're meant to look up to, though Robin is. Hmmm.


I agree I never would have foreseen Margot as a nun! Maybe EBD was intending to illustrate that you don't have to be a goody-goody to be a christian - God's forgiveness is freely offered to everyone and gives us all the opportunity to transform our lives. Maybe Margot needed the discipline to enable he to make the best use of her gifts. Or maybe EBD just wanted to surprise us...

#14:  Author: Mrs RedbootsLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:33 pm
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Oh no, I thought Margot's vocation was quite in character! And guessed it several books before she announces it. I forget exactly where, but somewhere where she said she hopes to do "Something with music, and medicine" or words to that effect.

#15:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:13 am
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Tom's career choices hop around - along with analytic chemist she also wants to be a pharmacist and a classics teacher. I agree that her choice makes the most sense, as what she is actually doing really fits her personality and strengths.

Robin's choice is almost stereotypical, but does fit with her earlier attempts at settlement work, which she couldn't handle. Plus, at a convent in Toronto she was under the authority of the senior nuns, rather than the San doctores (particuarly Jack and Jem) - I could see her getting tired of having her life dictated by the people who remembered her when she was really frail. Jem, for one, thought her chosen career was too strenuous for her, and also hoped she wouldn't marry, so I'm not sure what he was expecting her to do.

For Margot, I can see her deciding to be a nun. She's always struggled with her temper, and her self-centred personality, and could be looking on taking orders as an external control on herself and a way of atoning for her bad girl status. Even the way her misbehavior is discussed in the family is religious in nature - what better to squash a devil than God? I'm not so sure I could see her sticking with it after a few years away from the family, at a university where no-one knew her as the bad triplet.

#16:  Author: skye PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:23 pm
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I always saw Robin's decision to go into a convent as a second choice forced on her by her physical limitations and her inability to cope with settlement work. If it hadn't been for her health she would stayed in the world and had a life more like Tom's.

#17:  Author: RosalinLocation: Swansea PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:02 pm
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I thought it was the other way round. Robin always wanted to be a nun but initially wasn't thought to be strong enough. I'm not sure how that fits with not being strong enough for settlement work though Confused

#18:  Author: LizzieCLocation: Canterbury, UK PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:53 pm
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The conversation about it is in Joey Goes to the Oberland (Pages 29-31 in my GGB edition) just after Joey has been rescued from the packing crate:

Quote:
'Thanks,' Robin said as she accepted hers. 'I can just do with that.' Suddenly she began to giggle. 'I might have known how it would be! I'm almost sorry now that I agreed to stay and help you get off. I'm sure Reverend Mother would have welcomed me at the convent, even if I'm not to be allowed to enter until the Feast of the Assumption.'

'Go, if that's how you feel,' Jo said haughtily. 'I can manage very well by myself, if that's all.'

Robin stopped laughing and eyed her anxiously. 'You aren't right yet. Should we draw the curtains and leave you to rest? What do you say, Jack? She must be feeling ill when she says she doesn't want me, even though she knows that when I do go, it'll be good-bye for keeps unless you turn up in Toronto again some time.'

Jo gave her a look and relaxed. 'Little idiot! As if I meant it! Oh, Rob, I'm going to miss you so much, darling! Still, it is your life. You must do as you want with it. I know that.'

'I couldn't do anything else,' Robin said thoughtfully. 'You know that, too, Jo. I've wanted it for years - far longer than I ever told anyone before. Only for such ages it didn't seem as if it could be, there's been so much bother about my health and so on. And then I knew how you and Madge always liked to have me around. I did try settlement work, but you know what happened. I thought then that it was all to be no good. And then everything cleared up with a bang - just like that - and I knew I couldn't refuse any longer.'

'So that's why you went in for all that hot and strong!' Jo exclaimed. 'If only I'd known! Rob, we love having you with us. You know that, don't you? But if you felt the Call then you'd no right to try and put us first. And after all,' she added, 'it hasn't done any good so far as that's concerned, for you're going in the end. Quite right, too. Couldn't you trust us?'

Robin flushed. 'Of course I could! Only - well, there seemed so much against it. Now I know I was only imagining things. I've had to give up in the end. You see, Jo - and Jack, too,' she went on looking from one to the other, 'you people have all been so endlessly good to me, ever since I first came to the Chalet School. That's nearly twenty years ago. I did wonder if I owed it to you to - to stay out. But it was a losing fight. I just had to give in. And oh, if you only knew how happy I've been ever since I did!' she wound up. 'Everything seems to have cleared up for me and, though I shall hate saying good-bye, I'm just longing for the time!'

Jack, who was sitting on the side of the bed, put out his hand and pulled the slight girl down beside him. He smiled down into her lovely face with its dark, starry eyes and frame of curling dark hair. Then he said, 'We can guess, Rob. You've looked a different being these past few months. And don't worry about your health. Humanly speaking you've outgrown your childish delicacy. Canada suits you, with its dry cold in winter. You'll love the teaching side of your work as well as the other. You've every chance of making really old bones. In fact, I'll venture to prophesy that you're as likely to reach extreme old age as Soeur Marie-Claire. Ninety-odd isn't she? Well, I can say no more.'

#19:  Author: MelLocation: UP NORTH PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:39 pm
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I think Rob's vocation was sincere though I wonder why they thought that being a nun was les strenuous than settlement work. In a convent there would be no one to tell her to stop, rest, pack her off to bed etc. It's interesting that the two frailest girls (as children) become nuns. Margot's vocation I think is a mistake. There is always the notion, in fiction, that the naughty girls are more likely to become nuns, and nuns themselves will say proudly "I was a terror at school!" but they mean 'naughty' not a bully, not violent and not a blackmailer!

#20:  Author: RobLocation: Currently in a rainstorm PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:23 pm
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I agree that Tom's vocation is the best written, and to me seems the most in character. I also think it highly likely that she wouldn't have arrived at this career choice at twelve or thirteen, but have made the desicion when she was older.

I never had a problem with Margot deciding to become a nun, I think that although perhaps the scripture lessons they are given are not as in depth as they might be, the ethos at the CS was, to my mind, very religious (they attend daily whole school prayers, Church on Sundays - sometimes more than once - and the only people who do not regularly say private prayers, morning and evening are 'problem girls'), she had a supportive family who all had deep seated religious beliefs, she had attended a convent school in Canada for two years and she was able to write to Robin who could tell her about being a nun.

I actually have more problems with Robin's decision. Her delicateness appears to be in waves when it was most useful to the storyline EBD was writing, whilst at other times, she seems to be perfectly healthy even in the English climate. Some people have commented that she was 'too good' to become anything else, however I wouldn't have said she was particularly any 'good-er' (I don't think thats a word is it? - well you know what I mean!) than any other of the continental girls - especially given the concerns over her health. In fact, I rather get the impression that EBD didn't quite know what to do with her after she left school. She initially leaves school to read modern languages at Oxford (I think?), then after playing a part in reforming Zephyr Burthill, randomly takes up settlement work, has to go to Switzerland and Canada to recover and then says that she always wanted to be a nun!! I do like the snapshop we get of her in Adrienne however so I think even if EBD did make her a nun to write her out of the limelight, Robin obviously relished the challenge!

#21:  Author: AlexLocation: Cambs, UK PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:39 pm
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I think that people have a stereotypical idea of what nuns are like which bears littel resemblence to the reality. I know quite a few nuns and consecrated lay-people (please don't ask as I still haven't quite got it figured out myself yet!) from different orders, and I don't think I could define "nun-like" from them. What I'm trying to get at, is that I don't think you can say Margot is or isn't the type to have a vocation to the religious life because there isn't a "type". Robin is stereotypically nun-like and Margot isn't, and whilst stereotypes come from reality it's important to remember that they are just stereotypes and not RL, so despite all being completely different Robin, Margot, Tom, Mary and Luigia are all equally likely to have vocations to the religious life as are all the rest.

This has all got a bit rambly and it probably doesn't help that I've chopped and deleted it throughout but I hope you can see what I'm getting at.

Mel wrote:
In a convent there would be no one to tell her to stop, rest, pack her off to bed etc.


Obedience comes into play here. Yes, Margot would have found it hard as she was naturally rebellious, but Robin would have too, for example if she wanted to spend more hours in doing a certain work for the community/other people/whoever she could well have been put under obedience to rest, she may have felt like she was not allowed to contribute an equal share to community life. And obedience is not about blindly doing what you are told, it is given freely, and in return gives a kind of freedom.

ETA I think it completely in character that Margot wouldn't discuss this because she was a very proud girl and probably would have worried about being ridiculed.



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