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#1: Themes: Friendship Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:37 am
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As suggested by macyrose Very Happy

What do you think of the portrayal of friendship between the girls at the school, particularly the view of sentimentality vs casualness, friendship groups and accusations of 'soppiness'?

Were only certain types of friendship acceptable? What about the 'groups' system that EBD loved so much - her triumvirates, her quintettes, her gangs? Were these exclusive groups in a bad way, or did they invite participation from other girls?

What about the different types of friendship that existed between the staff - is it realistic to expect a team of staff to get on so well with each other - should EBD have portrayed them more as colleagues than friends - or does she do that?

And anything else that you would like to say about the theme of friendship in the Chalet School world - please join in and post below.

#2: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:49 pm
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I think EBD's ideas about friendship are quite clear and consistent throughout the series and on the whole I agree with her.

People should have a wide range of friends;
Jealousy, possessiveness and exclusivity are bad;
It is possible to be friends with someone who is older or younger than you are;
True friendship will survive a long period of separation;
Friends should be supportive and helpful towards each other;
It's acceptable, even desirable, to have a close and deep friendship with another girl or woman, but excessive sentimentality is to be frowned on.

I think EBD is generally successful in depicting friendships, both among the girls and among the adults. The only occasions she is less successful I think are when she allows one character to dominate a form or a group - specifically Mary Lou and Jack. Instead of several smaller groups, there is one large group surrounding one individual, and a sense that they are somehow the elite.

#3: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:53 pm
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I think Mary-Lou and Jack's gangs are realistic portrayals of the cliques that exist in many schools both today and in the past. There's the Queen Bee (Mary-Lou, Jack) and the wannabees or hangers-on (the rest of the group who follow the Queen's lead). These groups are the in-groups of their class/grade and the groups that sets the trends. The bullying of "outsiders" (e.g. Jane from Jack's group) is also unfortunately realistic and still an all too common happening.

I think other aspects of friendships are also realistically portrayed - friendships breaking up for various reasons (e.g. Elizabeth and Betty), changing friends throughout the growing up years (e.g. Len growing away from Prunella and becoming friends with Rosamund and then Ted), and remaining friends after schooldays are long past (e.g. Jo and her quartette).

When I was growing up most of the girls I knew (including myself) had a Best Friend - a friend whom you would sit next to in class and hang with out at recess and lunch, pick for your partner, talk to on the phone, get together with outside of school and confide in about almost everything (though that didn't mean we didn't have other friends at the same time). I"m not sure if having a Best Friend would have been seen by EBD as being too exclusive?

I found the staff's relations to be a little idealised. The only one who doesn't seem to fit in is Pam Slater. All other staffroom scenes seem to portray the staff as always getting along with each other. Considering how thrown together they are since they're living in a boarding school I'm surprised there's few, if any, arguments or outright fights (at least that I can remember). But since EBD was focusing on the girls I guess that isn't too surprising.

A good book on female teen friendships and relations is Queen Bees and Wannabees by Rosalind Wisemen which is where I got the terms Queen Bee and Wannabee from. The film Mean Girls was based on this book.

Last edited by macyrose on Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

#4: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:38 pm
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I prefer the groups such as the Quintette which aren't dominated by one individual, but in real life I found that there tended to be groups led by one dominant person at school, and that it was sometimes difficult for those of us in their form who weren't in their group. So I think that the way that e.g. Jack's gang dominate their form and sometimes fall out with other people seems much more realistic than the early years when there are very few feuds.

I think that friendships are depicted quite realistically in general, other than that, as Macyrose said, most people seem to be part of a group rather than having a "best friend" - with a few exceptions such as Ricki Fry and Sue Mason. Some people - e.g. Con, Joan, Yseult - never really seem to make close friendships, which is sad but again typical of what can happen at school: I like to think that they all found loads of mates once they'd left!

The staff all get on surprisingly well. I've never worked anywhere where there weren't particular individuals who didn't get on, a bit of bitching behind people's backs, the odd huge row that got out of hand, etc, and when you live with people as well as working with them you must drive each other mad sometimes! Actually, now that I think about it, the staff pair off into "best friends" much more than the girls do.

I sometimes wonder what it was like for them during the holidays. There's a mention somewhere of Vi Lucy having a friend at home - Mellie or Melanie or something like that - but when we see members of the Maynard/Bettany/Russell clan in the holidays they don't seem to be friendly with anyone who lives nearby (except Mary-Lou/the Wintertons/other CS pupils). I appreciate that EBD wouldn't have wanted to bring a load of random non-CS pupils into the books, though.

#5: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:42 am
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Alison wrote:

I sometimes wonder what it was like for them during the holidays.

I suppose that they just lived so far away from home, in the boarding school, that in many cases the girls wouldn't have had friends at home at all. Some of them are at the school from the age of seven or eight; their parents sometimes travel a lot; they spend their holidays going to stay with different schoolfriends as well as visiting home. It's sad, but I can't imagine they had much roots in the area that they were from. This wouldn't have happened while the school was in England, but when it was in Austria and Switzerland.

Alison wrote:

Actually, now that I think about it, the staff pair off into "best friends" much more than the girls do.

That hadn't struck me before; it's interesting. In some cases, especially with Old Girls, I get the feeling that this is because essentially, they've never grown up. They just left the school for three years to get their degree, now they are back in the enviroment they lived in as schoolgirls for the past twelve years - maybe they slip back into the same behaviour patterns, except there isn't as big a pool of 'friends' to pick from.

#6: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:31 pm
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macyrose wrote:

When I was growing up most of the girls I knew (including myself) had a Best Friend - a friend whom you would sit next to in class and hang with out at recess and lunch, pick for your partner, talk to on the phone, get together with outside of school and confide in about almost everything (though that didn't mean we didn't have other friends at the same time). I"m not sure if having a Best Friend would have been seen by EBD as being too exclusive?

Now you point it out, I think you're right. She has quite a lot of threesomes - Daisy/Beth/Gwensi, Jacynth/Gay/Gill, Len/Rosamund/Ted - but not many couples. Peggy and Daphne Russell were friends throughout their schooldays, and Bride was close to Elfie, but they both had other friends whom they did things with.

The only real twosome I can think of is Margot and Emerence. And even then, Margot had her sisters. But I don't think Emerence had any other friends. She was just part of the group around the triplets because of Margot. And Margot is shown as missing Emerence badly when she leaves, so although EBD doesn't spell it out, I think the implication is that it's better to have a number of friends.

#7: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:10 pm
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Róisín wrote:

Alison wrote:

I sometimes wonder what it was like for them during the holidays.

I think this would true to some extent for all girls of their class - many of whom went to boarding school - and also that it would be the case whether the school was in England or overseas. After all, if you are at boarding school, you are there for 7-9 months of the year and are unlikely to be at home other than during the long holidays (boarding school half terms typically being only a long weekend, and people in that era not be able to travel as readily as we can now, meaning exeats are rare). That's bound to take you away from any friends you might have made amongst children local to your home unless, for instance, they are also at boarding school and thus have the same experience as you do (e.g. Patrick and Nicola in AF).

Another thought is that, in a rural setting, the number of local families of a similar class - from whom home friends might be drawn - would often be relatively small....

#8: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:44 pm
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Alison wrote:

I sometimes wonder what it was like for them during the holidays.

Róisín wrote:

That's one of the reasons Monica's Father in Monica turns up Trumps wants Monica to go to a local school as she wouldn't know any local girls when she left school and came home.

The one group of friendships I feel sorry for is Josette. She and Vi Lucy lead the form in Three go. Mary Lou comes along and joins their gang and then all Josette's friends are promoted except her to the form above at the end of the term and then she has to go to Canada for two years after that which inittially was only for six months but became two years. I think it would have been hard for her coming back being with her friends again but having lost her position as one of the leaders in the form and lost her best friend in Vi Lucy. Vi and Mary Lou lead the gang not Vi and Josette. I wonder if that was one of the reasons she didn't want to go to Australia. She was meant to go there for a year and only had to miss out on finishing school. Granted it lasted 3 years instead, but if I had that chance I would have leapt on it. I could never understand her reluctance, however, if she had found it really hard to settle back in with her friends, then I can understand why she wouldn't want to go through all that again

#9: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:30 am
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She was best friends with Jo Scott for a little while, but then they sort of got separated and Jo ended up with Ros Lilley and the Maynards. That was really mean of EBD! There was a much bigger age difference between Margot and Emerence than there was between Josette and either Jo or the rest of OOAO's Gang, but she kept them (Margot and Emerence) together, so why not Josette and her friends?

#10: Author: coddle,

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:43 am
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I always thought that EBD was a bit 'down' on Madge Russells' daughters. Poor Sybil is always portrayed as not very nice, Josette is sidelined for Mary-Lou and we never really hear that much about Ailie - does anyone else agree??

#11: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:10 pm
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Alison H wrote:

I sometimes wonder what it was like for them during the holidays.

I went to private school from the age of 4 and never went to a local playgroup or nursery and so never had a group of "local" friends. Most of the local kids saw me as a snob and the only friends I did have locally were the twin daughters of local teachers. So although they went to the local high school, they were quite ostracised as well and we all got on very well.

But my holidays were longer than theirs, so I used to spend huge amounts of time reading and being on my own, unless I could persuade my parents to take me to meet up with my schoolfriends. I used to be so jealous of the EBD big families where even if you didn't have friends nearby you still had someone to play with or even scrap with. And the whole concept of having friends from school to stay for large chunks of the holidays.

#12: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:50 pm
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coddle wrote:

I always thought that EBD was a bit 'down' on Madge Russells' daughters. Poor Sybil is always portrayed as not very nice, Josette is sidelined for Mary-Lou and we never really hear that much about Ailie - does anyone else agree??

Whereas Dick's daughters all pretty much sail through school life and (the 3 older ones at least) all get to be Head Girl Confused

#13: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:19 pm
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Fiona Mc wrote:

I suppose that they just lived so far away from home, in the boarding school, that in many cases the girls wouldn't have had friends at home at all.

This was true for us - we had very few friends locally as we were all sent at least ten miles away (much further, for my brother and me - my parents were older by the time my sister was old enough to go to boarding-school), and anyway, we lived in the country and had no neighbours within walking distance. I don't mean to sound sorry for myself - that was just the way things were! Even at primary-school, going to spend the day with a friend required the co-operation of mothers and cars....

Even now, the only people I know where my parents live are their friends!

#14: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:54 am
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It’s an interesting point, about not having friends at home. Can’t think of many home friends for the Maynard boys! On the other hand if we think Enid Blyton then you have the Five Find-Outers who have a little gang at home. I think they all go to boarding school? As for The Famous Five, I doubt the siblings even knew their parents as they seemed to spend all their time with George either at Kirrin or away on holiday. Also if you do as much visiting in the holidays as is often portrayed then you’d never be at home alone.

#15: Author: Bee, Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:59 am
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It seems the main characters of the series are portrayed, through their friendships, as being absolute leaders. There's Jo, who has the follower, the peacemaker and the beauty. There's Mary-Lou, who "leads the rest of the Gang by the nose" or something like that. And then of course Jack, who, as has been discussed loads of time, practically goes out of her way to bully people and drags her group into it.

Their best friends are the same. Simone, Verity, and Wanda von Eschenau(?) are all pretty quiet and weak characters, at least at school. Even Len, who is probably the nicest of them all, has Rosamund and Ted, who arguably fade into the background when compared with her. So it seems as though EBD glorifies this sort of relationship and behaviour. Maybe it was a plot device, so they were definitely the main characters, but it ends up making the characters less likeable.

My favourite group is the Quintette, who, while are all close, regularly open the ranks for other girls to be involved in their schemes. I've also just re-read Challenge, and I like the sound of Jane Carew's group - the four girls seem lovely together! Smile

Alison H wrote:

coddle wrote:

Whereas Dick's daughters all pretty much sail through school life and (the 3 older ones at least) all get to be Head Girl Confused

That always struck me as strange too. Madge was the one who began the school. She was a strong, independent leader. Why on earth couldn't at least one of her girls inherit that???

#16: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:25 pm
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Josette Russell was Head Girl, though - if she had remained with Mary Lou's Gang she would not have been.

#17: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:37 pm
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It's an interesting question. I do think EBD, who is so conscious of school stories as a genre (we see it in her having a school story writer as a major character, in the first Austrian pupils at the CS reading school stories for information on English schools, in the various mentions of 'cheap school girl weeklies', and in copycat incidents like Polly Heriot and the alarm bell etc etc) is consciously writing against the more sentimental kinds of girls' school stories, and trying to bring her own closer to 'unsentimental' male school stories. Her girls are generally resolutely unsentimental in friendship, and the few exceptions to this who display jealousy or sentiment (Simone as a prime example) are roundly scolded for it.

Feelings are seldom discussed between friends - in fact, you are considerably less likely to talk about your own feelings than Mary-Lou is to end up discussing them with Joey - and friends are never physically or emotionally demonstrative. Even in a school which is at times hyper-feminine in a rather Victorian way - with a lot of emphasis on female physical fragility, the importance of pure English, the beauty of certain characters, on manners, curtseying and being able to do good needlework - the emotional lives of the girls are not. 'Boyish' behaviour - whistling, slang, rags etc - is officially disapproved of by the CS, but tacitly approved of by the authorial voice over 'girlish' sentiment. Someone who's more familiar with 'Tom Tackles the CS' (I've only read it once) might have interesting stuff to say on Tom's POV.

I've just been reading Dorothy L Sayers' Gaudy Night, which, while it's set at an Oxford women's college rather than a boarding school, is full of contemporary unease at the dichotomy between female intellect/independence and what was thought of as biological destiny and domesticity. There's a lot of half-digested worry among the all-female dons about being regarded as sexless and frustrated and mad for being unmarried, and lots of sideswipes about the tensions in an all-female community - leading to literal madness and almost a murder. Whereas EBD is anxious to show the opposite - that an all-female community can be a healthy, life-affirming place, and I think that stereotype (all-female community as unbalanced and unhealthy, full of gossip, crushes, jealousy and frenzied emotion etc etc) is also behind her representation of friendships in both staff and girls.

#18: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:41 pm
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Interesting take on it - and I loke this line!

Quote:

. . .you are considerably less likely to talk about your own feelings than Mary-Lou is to end up discussing them with Joey.

#19: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:31 pm
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coddle wrote:

OT - I think Sybil reforms though - she's very nice as a senior. Plus I've always liked Josette, and I think Ailie was getting more prominence as she got older, but then the series ended.

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