The CBB :: View topic - Books: Excitements at the Chalet School

I thinking titheing as an idea is pretty unusual in the UK, though - I've only come across it in newspaper accounts of US evangelical churches.

IIRC, technically it carried on until just before the start of Queen Victoria's reign, although by then it'd become a system rent payments more than anything else. Non-Anglicans had to pay as well, and IIRC there was a load of trouble about it in Ireland in the early 1830s and it was after that that the system was done away with across the UK.

What I couldn't figure out was why it took eight people to 'work out' the suggestion "ask everyone for a subscription to begin to build our school chapels". It's not that complicated, is it?

(Miss Ferrars' quote was "I know we said all suggestions must be anonymous but I'm going to break that over this last suggestion. It was begun by Len Maynard and worked out to its present form by the other two, Rosamund Lilley, Betty Landon, Jo Scott, Emerence Hope and Alicia Leonard.")

One of the characters in Gaudy Night is supposed to be an unfavourable portrayal of a woman who was prominent in the anti-tithe agitation. DLS, as an Anglican clergyman's daughter, was naturally in favour of tithe payments.

What surprised me was that two separate chapels were built - even though the Catholics and Anglicans separated for prayers, it was still a very ecumenical school, and I suppose I would have vaguely expected a single structure to be shared between the two. But maybe it would have been too awkward to have services at different times in the CS timetable - and perhaps I'm expecting too much ecumenism for the late 1950s.

JayB wrote:

Oooh, which character is that? I've just read this book and it completely passed me by! :lol:

I accepted the whole Matey bereavement thing and, on rereading as an adult, could appreciate what it would mean to her to have someone use her first name.

Won't enter the tithe debate but isn't it funny that it was such a huge deal to build the chapels in Switzerland compared with the comparative ease with which they were build at the Tiernsee? I don't think the difference can be accounted for entirely by the effects of inflation and the relative locations. Perhaps EBD had a more realistic idea of the cost and hassles of building by then.

Ray *thinks EBD applied the same elastic ideas to buildings as she did to cars!*

Wouldn't the Catholics want a much guadier church anyway, ir is that stereotyping?

I'd never considered my church as gaudier than an Anglican one!! :lol:

But then I'm possibly thinking of modern ones which tend to be plain and simple

As to different chapels in the fifties, that was the time when we Catholics still needed permission to enter another faith's church, so that would have been one reason. I'm sure there were others. :wink:

Well it was because the council had a windfall. They sold land but couldn't use it for normal council purposes as it was profit rather than income or something...I don't understand the ins and outs of it. But they did give my grandma's church the money and gave money to all the other churches (whether they wanted it or not, though I suppose they probably all did) as well. They also bought some new Christmas lights.

ETA Yes I am very curious about this cathedral!

It reminded me a bit of the Liverpool RC cathedral.

(and, I have to admit, pretty ugly in many cases - could someone hand back St Paul's, please?)

Catholic churches in the alps are full of ornate gold decorations and statues. Very beautiful, but very distracting. Some wonderful paintings too. Was it Eustacia who said that they should be sold to give money to the poor?

“I thought the pictures were beautiful,” Yseult observed. “But it seems a pity not to have them in a picture gallery where they could be seen in good light.”

“But the were painted for the cathedral. You couldn’t possibly move them!” Len argued. “They were done for God’s house and if you shoved them into a picture gallery, it wouldn’t be the same thing at all.”

“I suppose you’re too much of a child to understand,” Yseult said coldly. “Pictures like that should be at the disposal of everyone and it’s impossible to see them properly, even though so many of them are lighted.”

“I may be younger than you,” Len retorted hotly, “but at least I’s old enough to know that doing what you suggest would be stealing from God! They were painted for Him and they ought to remain where they are.”

I was surprised by the indignation aroused by Yseult's comments, as selling all one owns and giving it to the poor is one of Christ's injunctions to those who wish to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Having seen some of the Titians, El Grecos and Raphaels painted for RC churches in Italy and Spain, I think the paintings alone would induce a sense of claustrophobia,

I found El Greco very tiring and overwhelming, so what seeing them regularly would do to someone, I don't know.

As for Yseult -- Did anyone think it as likely as Miss Ferrars that the goat treatment will have made her a regular schoolgirl, while such contretemps as being squirted from a visor or ending up in a "scrimmage" during the fuse prank seemed to have no impact whatsoever?

Author:	Róisín [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Books: Excitements at the Chalet School
Joey has just realised that it is 21 years since the school was founded and this book is full of formulating plans for how to celebrate that in the coming term. What do you think of the plans that are thought of? These include the building of the chapels and the trip to Tyrol. Matron has a family tragedy - do you think that EBD was trying to fill out her character portrayal with this incident? This is the term where Miss Ferrars introduced Spot Supper - do you like this new tradition? Please discuss any aspect of this book that you like, below Next Sunday: The Coming of Age of the Chalet School

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:20 pm ]
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Ignoring the problems with the timescale - it must've been nearer the silver jubilee than the coming of age! - I like this part of the series - the Inter V crowd are a nice group. It's also good to see Matey, a long-serving character, as a person with feelings (for people other than Joey, I mean!) rather than just as "that redoubtable lady" or "small but wiry" or "sleeping with one ear open" et al. If this was first published in 1957, then EBD was presumably writing it in 1956, the year after Allied troops left Austria, so I would think that she felt that it was now OK to show the characters planning to visit/revisit to Tyrol and that this was a good way of doing it. Incidentally, I know that the CS sort of brought Biddy up, and that she wouldn't've had to pay household bills etc because of the nature of the job, but it was very generous of her to donate a tenth of her annual salary to the chapel fund! I could've done without Joey sticking her nose in at Spot Supper and insisting on making a speech, but gold star for Mary Lou for calling for three cheers for the kitchen staff !

Author:	Theresa [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:17 am ]
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Ah, but it was a chapel fund. A tenth would be exactly the appropriate amount, even if she did have household bills. When I was a small child we didn't have enough money for food, even, and we still put in our donation envelope + small change at Church every Sunday (but they didn't make us pay our school fees). Eternal souls and all that.

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:04 am ]
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I thinking titheing as an idea is pretty unusual in the UK, though - I've only come across it in newspaper accounts of US evangelical churches. (In fact, I'm fairly sure it would be regarded as eccentric by even the church-going British public at large, although there are people who donate at that level to churches here too - but those churches probbaly aren't Anglican or Catholic.) Which is a roundabout way of saying I was also a bit gobsmacked by Biddy's contribution. I thought the decision to build the chapels was interesting. It's still very much EBD representing the entire school as pretty devout - no one saying 'Chizz, who cares? I wanted a swimming pool/home cinema/fleet of school motorboats' What surprised me was that two separate chapels were built - even though the Catholics and Anglicans separated for prayers, it was still a very ecumenical school, and I suppose I would have vaguely expected a single structure to be shared between the two. But maybe it would have been too awkward to have services at different times in the CS timetable - and perhaps I'm expecting too much ecumenism for the late 1950s.

Author:	Kate [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:10 am ]
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What I couldn't figure out was why it took eight people to 'work out' the suggestion "ask everyone for a subscription to begin to build our school chapels". It's not that complicated, is it? (Miss Ferrars' quote was "I know we said all suggestions must be anonymous but I'm going to break that over this last suggestion. It was begun by Len Maynard and worked out to its present form by the other two, Rosamund Lilley, Betty Landon, Jo Scott, Emerence Hope and Alicia Leonard.")

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Books: Excitements at the Chalet School http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4931

Author:	Lulie [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:03 am ]
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Sunglass wrote: I thinking titheing as an idea is pretty unusual in the UK, though - I've only come across it in newspaper accounts of US evangelical churches. Tithing used to be very common in Britain, the main difference between a Rector and a Vicar was that the Rector gained extra income from tithes and a Vicar didn't. I'm not sure when this tradition stopped though.

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:22 am ]
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IIRC, technically it carried on until just before the start of Queen Victoria's reign, although by then it'd become a system rent payments more than anything else. Non-Anglicans had to pay as well, and IIRC there was a load of trouble about it in Ireland in the early 1830s and it was after that that the system was done away with across the UK.

Author:	Theresa [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:57 pm ]
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Ask anyone here and they'll tell you we don't tithe here, either, but practicing Catholics still throw money at their local Church. It's voluntary, and there's no set amount or anything like proper titheing, but Biddy's chosen percentage doesn't strike me as odd, if she was going to pledge any sort of specific proportion of her wage.

Author:	JayB [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:37 pm ]
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Alison H wrote: IIRC, technically it carried on until just before the start of Queen Victoria's reign, although by then it'd become a system rent payments more than anything else. Non-Anglicans had to pay as well, and IIRC there was a load of trouble about it in Ireland in the early 1830s and it was after that that the system was done away with across the UK. (Puts on historian's hat) Payment of tithes in kind was commuted to money payments (where this hadn't already happened) by the Tithe Commutation Act of 1836. This has a great side benefit for local historians because many parishes had highly detailed maps drawn up with accompanying schedules listing who owned and occupied the land and what it was used for, in order to calculate who should pay what. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/poli ... /tithe.htm Payment of tithe went on until the 20th century and there was a lot of agitation in the 1920s and 1930s by farmers, who were going through a period of depression, complaining that they, a small proportion of the population, were having to support the CoE, which many of them didn't belong to anyway. One of the characters in Gaudy Night is supposed to be an unfavourable portrayal of a woman who was prominent in the anti-tithe agitation. DLS, as an Anglican clergyman's daughter, was naturally in favour of tithe payments. But basically, all the English characters would be familiar with the idea of tihe, because those who had no first hand knowledge would have learned about it in history.

Author:	JennieP [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:00 pm ]
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Tithing is also relatively common today in evangelical churches of all varieties in the UK, and even our local Church of Scotland minister (so not a particularly evangelical denomination) dared to raise the subject recently as a part of encouraging the congregation to consider scriptural attitudes towards money/time/charitable action. The chair of the church finance committee resigned in protest, though! Given that tithing would have been far more part of the religious awareness of the time, I didn't find it surprising that Biddy would pick on that amount to offer.

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:15 pm ]
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Indeed, even today many Christians tithe, although many choose to give a certain percentage of their income to the church, and the remainder to a charity or mission organisation. By the way, if you are a (UK) taxpayer you should Gift Aid your tithe, or whatever proportion of your income you give away, so that the recipient can claim back the tax you've already paid on it. Re Spot Supper, I have never cottoned on to that one. For a start, I really don't believe they would have had table-cloths - that, to me, is wrong on so many levels. At my boarding-school, we had nasty rubber mats that smelt, and were difficult to wipe clean, but table-cloths were only ever used when one part of the House entertained another part - if then. And if they were, they were basically old sheets begged from Matron! What about other folk who went to boarding-school - I know there are one or two on here. Did you have table-cloths?

Author:	Fi [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:37 pm ]
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I didn't go to boarding school, but the summer camp I worked at in the States used plastic tablecloths for all the dining tables as they were easier to wipe clean of spills than the rough wooden tables. I assumed the donation that Biddy gave was like the weekly offering that we give on Sundays at our church (Baptist). It isn't anywhere near as much as 10% of our wages but the offering is split between the financial needs of the church and mission work. When the new building for our church was being built a lot of people pledged a monthly donation to the building fund in order to raise the money.

Author:	Clare [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:47 pm ]
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Kate wrote: What I couldn't figure out was why it took eight people to 'work out' the suggestion "ask everyone for a subscription to begin to build our school chapels". It's not that complicated, is it? (Miss Ferrars' quote was "I know we said all suggestions must be anonymous but I'm going to break that over this last suggestion. It was begun by Len Maynard and worked out to its present form by the other two, Rosamund Lilley, Betty Landon, Jo Scott, Emerence Hope and Alicia Leonard.") I think maybe it took eight people to work out the logistics of it - they discussed whether having the chapels would be a good idea, dealt with the faith element and then discussed how best to go about fundraising. I like the fact it took the eight of them to come up with the idea, it isn't just one of the Maynard's saying "here's the idea, how long will it take you to build it?"

Author:	Miriam [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:56 pm ]
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I don't think that it actually required eight people to come up wit the idea, just that it happened to be eight. I think Len probably had a vague idea of getting the chapels built to celebrate the coming of age, but wasn't quite sure of the logistics of how to do it, and who should fund it. She then discussed it with her group of friends, and between them they concluded that this was the best format for the suggestion. It could have come just from a discussion with Con (for instance) but her uncertainty meant she was discussing it with a wider group. Also the whole form was aware that she had had an idea, so they are all curious, and wanting to know. That would have made it very hard for her to keep it secret.

Author:	MaryR [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:30 pm ]
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It is, indeed, Ruth, but, in fact, apart from the vivid stained glass windows, it makes my point above, that our churches tend to be plain and simple, even austere, inside. I would even say a bit too plain and simple!! Thanks for that, Ray.

Author:	Tor [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:22 pm ]
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Ah, but the original st pauls was presumably 'borrowed' by Henry VIII Now, Westminster Abbey as a swap for Westminster Cathedral would be a coup!

Author:	Lulie [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:21 pm ]
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JayB wrote: One of the characters in Gaudy Night is supposed to be an unfavourable portrayal of a woman who was prominent in the anti-tithe agitation. DLS, as an Anglican clergyman's daughter, was naturally in favour of tithe payments. Oooh, which character is that? I've just read this book and it completely passed me by!

Author:	Pat [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:39 pm ]
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Sunglass wrote: What surprised me was that two separate chapels were built - even though the Catholics and Anglicans separated for prayers, it was still a very ecumenical school, and I suppose I would have vaguely expected a single structure to be shared between the two. But maybe it would have been too awkward to have services at different times in the CS timetable - and perhaps I'm expecting too much ecumenism for the late 1950s. Far too much! Ecumenism is a pretty recent thing, with a lot of pitfalls. When we lived in Germany in the early 70s the block where our church was ( for all who weren't Anglican or Catholic) was due for redecorating. We had to share with the Anglicans. The two chaplains were quite happy to share the same service, but the Bishop wouldn't hear of it. Us non-conformists couldn't take communion with the Anglicans! the divide between Catholics and the rest were far far wider than that. And the logistics of having 2 services in one chapel at a boarding school would be far too difficult, especially given the fact that they often went off for rambles afterwards in the summer.

Author:	JayB [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:00 pm ]
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Lulie wrote: JayB wrote: One of the characters in Gaudy Night is supposed to be an unfavourable portrayal of a woman who was prominent in the anti-tithe agitation. DLS, as an Anglican clergyman's daughter, was naturally in favour of tithe payments. Oooh, which character is that? I've just read this book and it completely passed me by! It's the former Shrewsbury student who gave up her academic career to marry a farmer and work on the farm. Can't remember her name, and haven't got the book to hand. Harriet thinks she's wasted her intellect and her education. She thinks, or says, that the woman is two years older than herself, and looks twenty years older. According to a biography of DLS I read once, that character was based on a RL person, but unkindly so.

Author:	Alex [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:25 pm ]
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I suppose if Biddy was in the habit of tithing (tithe-ing?) anyway then she might decided to give it all the chapel fund for that year instead of elsewhere. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I quite like this book, and I do like Matey getting more of a story. It also portrays quite a lot of different groups within the school ie Inter V, nice long staff meeting, quite a bit of the prefects etc.

Author:	Tor [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:00 am ]
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I have a vague idea that it is still fairly common on the continent for there to be a direct tithe, or 'church tax' from people salaries. You can opt out, but the onus is on you to do this - rather than voluntarily donate as in the UK. Of course, you could argue that some of our UK taxes do go to the CoE via Bishops in the House of Lords etc, but I have no idea of the figures or if any public money is directed/ring fenced towards the state church. Still, Biddy's 10% does seem high. Maybe the tax levels in Switzerland were lower though, so her take home money was still plenty enough. However, I can imagine her doing the sums in her head when she hears the suggestions.... "How many dainty knitted twin-sets can I produce between now and then...hmmm... oh... nope I think 10% will much easier. It'll get Joey off my back and can call my time my own!"

Author:	jennifer [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:01 am ]
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I think tithing also dates back to days when the church was also the main organization for social services and charity work, so in some sense it could be considered part of the tax system. In Canada, churches get no money from the government, but do get non-profit status for tax purposes. Individual congregations are supported by donations from the congregation members, plus in some cases money from renting out the church facilities, or a few things like that. The style of donation varies by denomination; some churches ask for a pledge, others free donation.

Author:	JS [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:08 am ]
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I wasn't that impressed by the Spot Supper but it was nice to see Kathie take centre stage - so often the 'name' or main character disappears in subsequent books. I accepted the whole Matey bereavement thing and, on rereading as an adult, could appreciate what it would mean to her to have someone use her first name. Won't enter the tithe debate but isn't it funny that it was such a huge deal to build the chapels in Switzerland compared with the comparative ease with which they were build at the Tiernsee? I don't think the difference can be accounted for entirely by the effects of inflation and the relative locations. Perhaps EBD had a more realistic idea of the cost and hassles of building by then.

Author:	JayB [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:17 am ]
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Quote: I accepted the whole Matey bereavement thing and, on rereading as an adult, could appreciate what it would mean to her to have someone use her first name. There wasn't really any reason why they shouldn't have been using her name all along. All the other staff used first names. I can understand that maybe 'Matey' was a nickname that to an extent replaced her name, especially among mistresses who were Old Girls. But even when Jo introduces Janie Lucy to Matey, she doesn't mention her name. A bit rude, really. Matey should have been 'Miss Lloyd' in that situation. Janie (who is much younger than Matey) has to address her as 'Matron', rather as if she was a servant, because she doesn't know her name, and ends up sounding patronising. (Of course, it's probably because EBD had got herself into a muddle with the matrons early on and wasn't sure herself what Matey's name was!)

Author:	Ray [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:56 am ]
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JS wrote: Won't enter the tithe debate but isn't it funny that it was such a huge deal to build the chapels in Switzerland compared with the comparative ease with which they were build at the Tiernsee? I don't think the difference can be accounted for entirely by the effects of inflation and the relative locations. Perhaps EBD had a more realistic idea of the cost and hassles of building by then. Possibly, or possibly because there was a genuine shortage of building land/supplies/whatnot at the Platz, whereas things were much freer and easier at the Tiernsee. There's a few comments, particularly in the later books, about there not being much room at the Platz - although the school itself never seems to have a problem expanding as need be (often without anyone ever saying anything about building work being done!) Ray thinks EBD applied the same elastic ideas to buildings as she did to cars!

Author:	JS [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:32 am ]
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Quote: Ray thinks EBD applied the same elastic ideas to buildings as she did to cars! Think you've pretty much summed it up there!

Author:	Loryat [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:10 pm ]
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I think the Matron storyline is quite touching, and I love how she falls asleep planning her window. I like the Inter V group and think there are an interesting set of personalities there, but it's a shame the play idea doen't come off. I've never considered Biddy's donation in terms of a tithe. I thought it was just a one off donation to get the ball rolling. As regards the seperate chapels and ecumenicalism, recently my Grandma's Catholic Church needed roof funds and asked the council for money (the council had had a big windfall due to selling some land). The council was happy to oblige but in case it was accused of favouritism had to give exactly the same amount of money to all the other chuches. I know this isn't really the same thing, but it does demonstrate how resentment can still be expected to flourish, so the idea of different chapels in the 50s doesn't really surprise. Wouldn't the Catholics want a much guadier church anyway, ir is that stereotyping?

Author:	MaryR [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:32 pm ]
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Loryat wrote: Wouldn't the Catholics want a much guadier church anyway, ir is that stereotyping? I'd never considered my church as gaudier than an Anglican one!! But then I'm possibly thinking of modern ones which tend to be plain and simple - not many old and beautiful Catholic churches as they went to the Anglicans during Henry V!!!'s purge. I suppose we went in for more statues and so on in an earlier age, but it all depends. My school chapel was very plain, very simple but very beautiful, though the altar itself was awe-inspiring - and that was built in the fifties. Certainly a lot of the Catholic churches in France and Spain are more ornate, even gaudy!! I have to say, though, Loryat, I'm surprised at the council giving everyone money just because one church needs it. I've never heard of that! Usually the diocese holds all the funds and allots money to one particular building for one particular need. And the money is finite, so one building can't have too many needs as another building might also have needs. As to different chapels in the fifties, that was the time when we Catholics still needed permission to enter another faith's church, so that would have been one reason. I'm sure there were others.

Author:	Ray [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:46 pm ]
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MaryR wrote: I'd never considered my church as gaudier than an Anglican one!! But then I'm possibly thinking of modern ones which tend to be plain and simple You've CLEARLY never been to Bristol's Catholic cathedral! I'm not entirely sure when it was built, beyond inside the last sixty years, and it is anything but plain and simple. Or, as a friend of mine put it as we drove past: THAT'S A CATHEDRAL!?!?! Ray will have to try and find some photos for those who haven't seen it

Author:	Loryat [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:47 pm ]
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Well it was because the council had a windfall. They sold land but couldn't use it for normal council purposes as it was profit rather than income or something...I don't understand the ins and outs of it. But they did give my grandma's church the money and gave money to all the other churches (whether they wanted it or not, though I suppose they probably all did) as well. They also bought some new Christmas lights. ETA Yes I am very curious about this cathedral!

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:16 am ]
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I think the idea of Catholic churches as 'gaudier' comes off a basic post-Puritan suspicion of 'smells and bells' - as someone said above, all the older Anglican churches were originally Catholic - the reason Catholic churches here in England often feel so different is that the majority are 19th or 20thc creations (and, I have to admit, pretty ugly in many cases - could someone hand back St Paul's, please?) MaryR wrote: As to different chapels in the fifties, that was the time when we Catholics still needed permission to enter another faith's church, so that would have been one reason. I'm sure there were others. I'd been about to say that lots of the non-Catholic CS girls are often shown going to Mass in the early days of the school, but of course that's Anglicans going to Catholic services, and not vice versa (and so moving the 'right' way acc EBD, like Joey, who converts. Though surely EBD can't have had that way-in-the-future plot point in mind in showing Joey's openness to Catholicism?)

Author:	Ray [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:34 am ]
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Loryat wrote: Well it was because the council had a windfall. They sold land but couldn't use it for normal council purposes as it was profit rather than income or something...I don't understand the ins and outs of it. But they did give my grandma's church the money and gave money to all the other churches (whether they wanted it or not, though I suppose they probably all did) as well. They also bought some new Christmas lights. ETA Yes I am very curious about this cathedral! This takes you to a google images search of the BBC website. Many pictures! This should give you some idea. It just...doesn't look like a church, even inside it - and that's allowing for the fact that it does have all the usual church accoutrements (like stained glass windows and pews that are uncomfortable for sitting on for longer than five minutes!) Ray much prefers the architecture of the Anglican Cathedral, but finds the Catholic acoustics far superior!

Author:	Jennie [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:55 pm ]
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I agree, it does't look like a cathedral at all, but some churches don't. there's a chuch in Peterborough called St Jude's, very appropriately named for the patron saint of lost causes, of which the architecture of the church must come before all others.

Author:	abbeybufo [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:58 pm ]
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It reminded me a bit of the Liverpool RC cathedral.

Author:	Sugar [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:09 pm ]
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abbeybufo wrote: It reminded me a bit of the Liverpool RC cathedral. Yup I thought that when I lived in Bristol.

Author:	Lesley [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:37 pm ]
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Sunglass wrote: (and, I have to admit, pretty ugly in many cases - could someone hand back St Paul's, please?) Sorry what am I missing? St Paul's was built in seventeenth century and therefore is Anglican - hand back to whom?