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#1: Girls: Bad Girls of the Chalet School Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:18 am
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You know who they are; the girls who never quite reform and became Real Chalet Girls (TM), in spite of the usual transformative accidents and adventures.

Grizel Cochrane: with a 'certain hardness of character' that not even years at the school could cure. She was arrogant, unsympathetic, sharp tongued, pragmatic, unimaginative, prone to rash actions and quick tempered. As a teacher she was feared more than loved, and dreaded for her quick tongue.

Margot Maynard: in spite of being a member of the glorious Maynard clan, Margot was widely known to be lazy, self centred, sharp tongued, selfish, jealous, prone to violent rages, with low self control, disobedient and immature, although sophisticated on the surface. She is always unfavourably compared with her better behaved, harder working, more docile triplets.

Joan Baker: the wrong sort of lower class girl, who hadn't learned to ape her betters, she was overly sophisticated, cheaply pretty, crass, 'talked about boys', wore makeup, bullied and occasionally swore. She never really fits in or makes a friend at school, and is always regarded as rather low class by her peers.

There were others: Yseult Pertwee, Phil Craven, Mary Woodley, who leave school before they are transformed. (The discussion of expelled girls will occur further down the line).

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What makes these characters different from the more typical Chalet Girl Made Good (tm)? Is their portrayal a good one, or were they hard done by?

Where these characters deliberately left bad for story reasons, or did they get away from the author's attempt to reform them? Do they eventually get to reform, or were they still rebels at heart?

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:09 am
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I sometimes think that EBD didn't really know what to do with them.

Grizel never really reforms even as an adult, and sadly always seems unhappy - and she's then packed off to New Zealand out of the way, and when she comes back she almost immediately gets to meet a lovely doctor and live happily ever after. I'm glad that she gets her happy ending, but I never feel that her "issues" are dealt with properly.

I'm never entirely convinced by the idea of Margot becoming a nun. I appreciate that in a children's series a lot of spiritual/religious talk might not really fit, but we never really seem to see her moving towards that idea.

As for Joan (who should have become The Perfect CS Girl because she got both Joey and Mary-Lou on her case Wink

), I think she got a raw deal. She was the victim of a lot of snottiness early on, and even afterwards, when she really seems to've become a nice person - e.g. when she helps the smaller girls across the flooded river in Richenda - she doesn't seem to have any close friends. And when we're told that she's practically engaged to a boy at college it's presented in quite a negative way, even though she's only going to be doing what a lot of other CS girls do by getting engaged young.

Yseult more or less disappears after a short while. It's a shame that her mother wasn't treated at the San and that we didn't get to see Yseult grow up/reform, rather than just being told that she'd gone from being a rather silly schoolgirl to a housewife/mother-to-be who wants to choose plain names for her kids!

Phil Craven is written out before she really gets chance to clash with the Gang, Mary Woodley just disappears, and Naomi Elton who is another "misfit" only really appears in one book.

I just feel that none of the real "problem" girls are dealt with fully in the books.

That was a long waffle Embarassed

#3: Author: Liss, Location: Richmond

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:41 am
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What interests me is that although Grizel ticks all the boxes for being a 'real' Chalet School girl (Games Prefect, Head Girl, Mistress, marries a doctor), she never is one. Whilst most other troublesome girls are given a sort of 'redemption point' towards the end of their book, which solves their antisocial problems (eg Eustacia, Annis, Juliet etc), Grizel has *many*. In any other character, the incident with the Tiernjoch in School would have sorted her out. Or, as a mistress, setting fire to Len. Even her accident in Reunion doesn't work - I think she's still described as being snappy when she's married with a child. EBD kept giving her the opportunities to reform, but never manages to pull it off.

My personal theory is that, although one suspects that EBD viewed Joey as being her alter ego, Grizel in fact was closer to filling that role. The weirdly troubled family background, the prickliness (wasn't EBD noted somewhere to have gone through close friends like water?)... I suspect that Grizel's career through the Chalet School is similar to the one EBD would have taken herself.

#4: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:41 am
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Liss wrote:

My personal theory is that, although one suspects that EBD viewed Joey as being her alter ego, Grizel in fact was closer to filling that role. The weirdly troubled family background, the prickliness (wasn't EBD noted somewhere to have gone through close friends like water?)... I suspect that Grizel's career through the Chalet School is similar to the one EBD would have taken herself.

Really interesting theory! I like it a lot. So, Joey was who EBD wanted to be (and probably Madge a bit, too, in the beginning) but Grizel was pretty much how she was. I wonder if (assuming truth of said theory) EBD was self-aware enough to have created Grizel knowingly, or whether it was an entirely unconscious thing?

I also have read stuff about EBD and friends. IIRC, she was rather prone to all-in-all friendships which had a tendency to end in tears and being on non-speakers. I wonder if the life-long friendships engendered by the CS was another bit of wish fulfillment?

OK, drifting off topic here. Sorry.

From a writing point of view, the recurring villain - never truly evil, as that would have to be resolved one way or t'other, but bad enough to drive the plot along and cause ructions and conflict - is a really useful person to have around. And having created a person in that mould, it maybe (a) hard to give them up becuase they are so useful, and (b) difficult to think of them in any other context but being a bit bad / nasty. So, EBD may just have found herself automatically writing Grizel / Joan / Margot in a certain way, despite her best intentions.

It's like the character takes over - no matter how much you as author want to send them in a certain direction (i.e. reform), they keep reverting back to type (i.e. problem child). I can certainly see that with Grizel.

#5: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:59 am
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Grizel is one of the most realistic characters in the series, in my opinion. That she doesn't reform is more realistic to me than the likes of Stacie, who reforms so completely that she becomes a different person (almost literally - new haircut, new name...). You couldn't lose all your previously-held opinions just like that, and Grizel never does. I don't like her, but I think she's one of the best drawn characters in the series. EBD does give her a hard time from her father over the money though, so maybe she did want to keep Grizel bitter and resentful. Oh, and I never did understand the setting Len on fire thing. It seemed a real, genuine accident to me, that could have happened to anyone, and in no way connected to Grizel's character.

I've said it before, Margot should have been expelled. She was a danger to others. Joey says that she spoilt Margot when she was wee, because they didn't know how long she'd live, so it's harder for her when she's disciplined, but I don't think we see any evidence of that. We see her with a bad temper at age 3 (Rescue), and Jack deals with her properly. She's shown a lot of understanding all the time, and she displays remorse, which get her off, but she never really changes. I suppose her intention to become a nun is EBD's way of showing that she's changed and is now good, but it doesn't ring true, I don't think. I can't see her as a nun.

I think EBD didn't know what to do with Joan. She couldn't change Joan's roots, and since that was the (perceived) problem, EBD had no idea what to do with her. She does get a raw deal; after the first book, she's no worse than anyone else, indeed her reformation is almost as unbelievable as those who are reformed by accidents and catastrophies (from scornful, loud-mouthed, manipulative bully to quiet, polite, helpful girl who presumably wears the "right" clothes, though her hair is still permed!), but possibly because it didn't take an avalanche or flood to bring about the reformation, it's never really recognised, and Joan is never presented in a good light.

I think that's a long enough waffle Laughing

Back to work now!

#6: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:01 am
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I remember reading someone analysis about Grizel before and it basically stated that Joey line in Head Girl that her story book characters kept going their own ways and refused to do what the writer wanted was a reflection of true character writing and that Grizel was a character that went her own way and refused to be written how EBD wanted. It's a thought anyway.

My own thought is, EBD did try to reform Grizel and did a fairly creditable job until Three Go which was years after the War books where Grizel although quite sharp tongued at times did show a helpful side as well (she lent a music room to Gay so Gay could teach Jacynthe and was quite encouraging about it all). She was a very supportive friend towards Juliet and devoted to Madge Russell and did anything she asked. It was only in the last couple of years before she left that she was portrayed in a very negative light without a redeeming feature and EBD said she would return a completely different person and that didn't happen at all.

Margot Maynard although a similiar character in some ways does not seem to have a single redeeming characteristic at all whereas Grizel has a number of lovely moments. The one thing I remember thinking when reading Challenge for the first time was I was quite annoyed EBD wouldn't let her reform at all. In Ruey you can see incidences where Margot does control her temper and when she doesn't so you get more of an idea of a gradual reformation which I had thought to be realistic, but losing her temper in Challenge was EBD repeating a tired storyline cos Margot was an easy one to do like that. I also tended to see that in Triplets when she threw the book at Betty. I know it was a book about the triplets but would have enjoyed the book more if Len lost her temper again not Margot. At least it would have been different.

Phil and Mary I think were side characters rather than main ones so they tended to blip under the radar a bit and Phil I never liked what she said about Ruth in regards to cheating. I thought that was hitting below the belt.

Joan, I don't know. Sometimes I can see why she was seen as being common and other times not. The funny thing is the only girl who seemed to screw their face up at her is Richenda (and Naomi-almost forgot her). Rosamund stands by her all through the years and keeps in touch when she leaves. I think Con's reaction to her engagement in understandable because most people do think quick engagements are too fast if you haven't know the person long. Most people in the books seem to have know each other for years as friends first.

#7: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:52 pm
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Marie von Eschenau had a very short courtship, and some girls have hardly left school before they've got engaged to a young man whom they hardly know, never having really associated with boys before.

I think EBD was unfair to both Joan and to Grizel. For one thing, I've never understood the difference between cheap prettiness and the ordinary kind.

In anyone else, EBD would have excused Grizel's character flaws, but chose to keep Grizel as she is, whereas we saw Jo's faults as a schoolgirl before she morphed into Mrs. Perfect Wife and Mother.

#8: Author: Tan, Location: London via Newcastle Australia

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:07 pm
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It is interesting how there are the different standards that are applied to different characters. I also felt a little sorry for Joan, particularly after she did her best to become a 'Chalet girl'. It was interesting that the girls voted her to a form position the following year. However, Joan was always seen to be on the outside.

I remember that she disclosed to one of the other girls that she needed to leave school early due to a change of family circumstances. It must have taken her some courage to do that.

I too, found the description of 'cheaply pretty' to be a backhanded compliment. I never really understood what this meant?

Many of the girls left school early to marry at a young age, Joey among them. And Len was engaged at a young age as well.

I quite enjoyed Grizel as a character. Many of her traits and incidents were very similar to a certain Margot Maynard - both behaved quite badly on a number of occasions yet were forgiven. As for the incident with Len, that was an accident, yet we are told Grizel felt guilty about it for years and felt that she needed to atone.

As for Mary Woodley, I really don't remember her or Phil Craven. Are they victims of the gang? (The Gang verged on bullying with both of these characters, yet were never really chastised for this behaviour - maybe another discussion topic?)

#9: Author: Tiffany, Location: Is this a duck I see behind me?

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:31 pm
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Follwing on from Liss's and Caroline's points about Grizel, I wonder if Grizel was so "bad" because of her close proximity to Joey? She and Joey are the school's first two pupils: they are pretty good friends at first: they're the only English girls for a bit. If Grizel under those circumstances is to become a character not a shadow, she has to be different from Joey. Neither of them are terribly nice, but the author's (and therefore audience's) perception of them as very different is what allows them both to be important.

I rather like the way Grizel isn't reformed by a single incident, because I don't believe life works like that. Grizel is someone who has character flaws, knows them, works to overcome them, and sometimes does well and sometimes less well. As an adult, again her badness is highlighted to show off Joey's goodness, regardless of any flaws Joey might have, but that's the author's bias, not the real story.

Joan Baker has quite a raw deal: Jack Maynard explains to Mary-Lou why Joan's whole life and upbringing has caused her to have different ideas and outlook from most Chalet girls, but she's given no credit for that. She's expected to change totally for no real reason. So, she talks about boys and wears makeup at fifteen since she was brought up to believe that at fifteen she'd be quasi-grownup, earning her living or training at a college. She acts in that way and gets sat on, but no-one explains anything to her. And indeed, she DOES get enagged young and have responsibilities dumped on her when she's young, so her outlook wasn't so far wrong. I think the school failed to give her the transition support she needed.

#10: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:37 pm
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I wonder if Margot was kept so bad as a foil for Len's character in a similiar way to Grizel and Joey were. It seems as though the more perfect Joey became the worse Grizel was portrayed and same with Len and Margot. Margot was no where near as bad when she was younger. From Theodora onwards she was positively nasty and Len became angelic.

Joan being cheaply pretty I took to meaning that her looks were good purely through the help of the hairdresser and makeup and without either she would be plain or look as good as most people which is ordinary. It could explain why it was described as being cheaply pretty rather than natural good looks. Her behaviour can't be explained away as her upbringing because I know there is a line where someone said you're giving me a nice idea about you're mother and Joan knows her mother wouldn't tolerate that kind of behaviour or language. So you could say she is getting the support from her peers to be the kind of daughter her mother tried to train rather than getting support for always playing up and being generally nasty. And both Rosamund and Joan got their ideas about boarding school from weeklies which after reading Michelle Magorian books I would say are probably normal and the CS is very different. The fact that Joan was on the outer with the other girls I think is more due to age and interests. Joan is more interested in things that the others would be in a few years. As Joey admits she likes to keep her daughters young and it seems so do a lot of other parents. That was what Jack meant. Joan had similiar interest to those who left school. And it is important to remember she is three years older than the triplets and a year older than Rosamund. And if they're kept younger than their years then it would be a further age gap again

#11: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:09 am
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I think Grizel is one of EBDs most complex characters. I don't see her as actually bad - she's impulsive and rash as a teenager, but grows out of that, and she's not sentimental or a people person. If she hadn't been forced into teaching music, which she hated on two fronts and was not tempermentally suited for, she could have had a very different adulthood. I like the theory that she was EBD as EBD was, and Joey was EBD as EBD wanted to be, which could help explain why the reformations never stuck (and why absolutely everyone adored Joey). Her final reformation is a bit disappointing - oh look, she does something heroic, gets a doctor, settles at the Platz and has babies, and that's all we ever hear from her after that.

Margot, I feel both sorry for and appalled by. Sorry because she was spoiled and indulged as a child, and is expected to behave with the maturity and academic prowess of girls two or three years older than her, and is continually compared unfavourably with her perfect sisters. Of course, her bad behaviour is due to personality flaws, because she was given perfect parenting. If she had been expected to behave like an eleven year old rather than a thirteen year old she might have found it easier. Appalled because she does get away with a lot - blackmail, bullying, physical assualt - that would get another girl expelled. Both the Ted and Betty incidents should have had serious consequences, not expulsion, but a suspension, or a removal of privileges and probation, rather than a talking to by Miss Annersley. The whole nun thing struck me as contrived - an external view of how she could reform, rather than something from within her.

Joan really is a nasty piece of work when she first appears - bullying, attempted blackmailing, swearing, but she is never allowed to reform like other girls. I take cheaply pretty to mean reasonably attractive by default, trendy rather than classically pretty, a little too prone to makeup, and, although EBD would never say so, probably fairly well endowed and not afraid to show it. It's interesting that new girls tend to instinctively react badly to her lack of breeding on first meeting her. She does have to grow up more than the other girls - she leaves school at 17, gets a year or so of secretarial training, and is then on her own. No university course, no allowance, no chance to return home to help mother, no St Mildred's. Len the mentally young gets engaged at a similar age, *while still in school* and nobody thinks she's a tart. Of course, she's engaged to a much older doctor while Joan is engaged to some boy she met at commercial college.

Basically, Grizel is a normal person who is not great around people and has to face getting up every day to do a job she hates and the realisation that her closest family hates her and her students fear her. Margot has been indulged and slapped down at random intervals so that she has no real idea of how to act in a manner appropraiate to her age, and Joan is at the Chalet School on sufferance - she will never be a real Chalet Girl.

The other bit part bad girls strike me as people who were awkward and not very popular but would probably grow out of their problems given half a chance.

#12: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:58 am
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Tan wrote:

I remember that Joan disclosed to one of the other girls that she needed to leave school early due to a change of family circumstances. It must have taken her some courage to do that.

She also said she wanted to get a good job so that she could make it possible for her younger sister to continue her education. So she had learned the value of hard work and education.

Quote:

Many of the girls left school early to marry at a young age, Joey among them. And Len was engaged at a young age as well.

I wonder if the difference is that Gisela, Jo, Len et al all became engaged to men who were already known to their families, and therefore 'approved', whereas Joan's fiance was someone she'd met at college. Very outdated of EBD if so, since young women had been going to college and work and meeting young men independently for a long time before Joan did it.

Quote:

As for the incident with Len, that was an accident, yet we are told Grizel felt guilty about it for years and felt that she needed to atone.

I think it happened because Grizel was angry about the letter she'd just received and was careless about throwing away the match. If she'd had more self control and taken more care, it wouldn't have happened. So she does bear some responsibility.

#13: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:35 am
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I think Grizel is one of the most interesting characters in the series and shows the best of EBD's writing, she is the kind of character that Antonia Forest might have created (high praise!) She is like someone we all might know - generally good company but moody or snappy at times. In real life, in present day times, she might have made some unwise decisions over men for instance. She is such a strong character that EBD has to knock her down both physically (the accident) and mentally (possible nervous breakdown) and force her to marry a doctor and live happily ever after. I can imagine EBD giving a sigh of relief that Grizel is finally sorted. My only criticism is that Grizel while at the school does so little with her life. As music mistress she is hardly over-worked and there is never any mention of her sports ability. Why did she never join a ladies' hockey team
Margot, on the other hand is very badly drawn, in fact all the triplets are. They seem to be one person with only one personality trait each. As has been pointed out, we never see any of Margot's good points. In Rescue, she is an engaging little girl, quite jolly in Joey Goes but after that she is only ever mentioned except concerning bad behaviour. The relentless list of her failings emphasises, to me, EBD's weakness, not Margot's. The idea of her becoming a nun is ludicrous, when she has shown so often that she is not fitted for community life.
Joan Baker does not work as a character, mainly because EBD was actually a snob, though she would deny it. She will graciously accept the 'lower orders' only if they were prepared to learn from their 'betters' as did Rosamund and Biddy, by being quiet and good, working hard and eradicating regional accents (though National accents like Irish, Scots and Welsh were all right). I would love to show EBD the present 'young ladies' of Roedean and Benenden with their fake tans, bleached hair, love of pop music etc - they are just the same and with the same tastes as kids anywhere.

#14: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:44 am
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Mel wrote:

My only criticism is that Grizel while at the school does so little with her life. As music mistress she is hardly over-worked and there is never any mention of her sports ability. Why did she never join a ladies' hockey team?

EBD could have sent her off to join the women's services in Goes To It. There doesn't seem to have been any good reason to keep her at the school. She doesn't have any storylines of her own, and unlike Rosalie her role isn't central to the running of the school.

#15: Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:58 pm
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I'm sure I've read on here somewhere that you never hear of Grizel getting involved in the running of any extra-curriculars. She was games prefect in her own time at school, but doesn't get involved in it as a teacher. I think this is a shame because it would have meant that she wouldn't have been as feared, and pupils could have seen a different side to her.

#16: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:56 pm
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And Mrs 'Perfect' Jo Maynard is anything but, when you consider her behaviour thorughout the series.

As a schoolgirl she is frquently rude, offhand, hates helping other people, and is as prone to doing stupid and sometimes dangerous things as any other girl. The spirit of the school sneaks out after dark to go to the ice carnival, a thing that has been absolutely forbidden. As a teenager, she is very reluctant to take any sort of responsibility, and continues so during her late teens.

As a married woman and the mother of a long family, she appears to see baby production as a race, and can't bear anyone to have more children than she has, and she is frequently shockingly rude about other people, making really personal comments about them as she does about Winifred Embury in 'Fete', and that in some ways, takes the shine off Nina Rutherford finding that David Embury is not only a relative, but also understands her musicality.

She also thinks that she is automatically the centre of attention wherever she goes, and is definitely reluctant to let anyone but those she commends to have their moment in the sun.

She is tiresome on occasion, andpersists in thinking that she ahs the right to walk into the school and disrupt any class that she chooses, which is definitely not on.

#17: Author: Tiffany, Location: Is this a duck I see behind me?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:04 pm
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Jennie wrote:

She is tiresome on occasion, andpersists in thinking that she ahs the right to walk into the school and disrupt any class that she chooses, which is definitely not on.

Yet, bizarrely, this behaviour is condoned by the school and all the characters. It seems EBD was totally blind to adult Joey's failings, since no-one disliikes her, no-one disregards her advice, no-one objects when she does the most objectionable things. No "balance" is given by, eg, a new girl thinking Jo's behaviour odd, or a mistress complaining of her disruptive habits, or an old schoolfellow treating her as an acquaintance rather than a bosom buddy.

#18: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:25 pm
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Too true. We see Kathie thinking that Mary-Lou is a busybody - although of course Kathie is made to repent for so doing!! - but no-one ever seems to object to the adult Joey!

#19: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:15 pm
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She is also frequently amazingly indiscreet, revealing confidential information to teenage girls, and sometimes usurping parents' rights to decide what to tell their daughters and when to tell it.

#20: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:15 am
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I think she sees herself as an uberparent ( can't do umlauts), who has the right to do as she chooses.

#21: Author: Tan, Location: London via Newcastle Australia

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:42 pm
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It is always interesting to contrast the 'bad girls' with the 'good girls'. I quite liked Grizel, felt sorry for Joan and could understand why Naomi felt the way she did (this was one of the books I read as an adult).

I always felt that Reunion showed an interesting portrayal of Grizel. It is interesting that despite her frequent clashes with Jo she regards her as her dearest friend. That is a good point in her character. I felt sorry that she felt the long-term guilt about Len's accident and wondered how much that had contributed to the distance she felt with Joey.

Naomi is another one whose character is described as warped. Yet in many ways, she is to be pitied. The school tends to brush over how that would have impacted on her. Her treatment of Jo Scott and Joan was rude and unfortunate. Yet again Joan is treated badly despite her attempts to make good.

As for Jo, behaviour that would hav been inexcusable in others is tolerated in her ... the tactlessness, the flagrant breaches of confidentiality (something that she advocated for with regards to Naomi) and the treating of the school as a drop in amusement centre.

Yet it is for all these reasons that we love the series and continue to debate the ins and outs of every story!

#22: Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:15 pm
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I think Grizel is one of those characters who frustrate an author, because they go their own way. It sounds so stupid- I always thought that was a silly line, until I did some writing myself. Sometimes a character can simply take off without you having very much to do with it. Great, if the direction is one you want, but awkward otherwise. Rolling Eyes

I'm not sure I agree about Margot being a one- or even two- dimensional character. She has one major flaw- a hair trigger temper- which gets her into constant trouble. After first the Ted and then the Betty incident (where Miss Annersley DOES use the word 'expell' in their talk) Margot makes an honest attempt to change and reform. She never quite suceeds, it's true, but for me that makes her human. I know she loses her temper in 'Challenge'- but she also apologises and admits she was wrong almost immediately. That shows growth- only a few years before Margot would have died before she apologised.

About the nun thing- I'm not so sure. I do believe we're prepared for it. There's hints from hmmm, of course I can't remember now, but possibly as early as when the Trips were in Va that Margot was considering something out of the ordinary for her future. I have to say as well from what I've read, not all prospective nuns are Robin-figures, and possibly it's strong characters like Margot who rise within the ranks, so to speak, in an Order. Maybe for Margot- or EBD- 'shutting Margot up' was a form of penance. The ultimate reformation of a Bad Girl, perhaps...

#23: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:12 am
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I actually do find it fairly believable Margot becoming a nun. I don't see all nuns as being saintly. I think some are and some aren't. I also tend to believe Margot could become a nun because I remember being part of a church youth group growing up and it was one of the wildest boys in the group that turned around and became a Pastor. My older brother became a minister and according to all my other older brothers who grew up with him he was a bit of a wild child who surprised a few old school friends with his choice of occupation so from that I think out of all the triplets it is believable Margot became a nun

#24: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:22 pm
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I did a double take when I first saw this topic thinking "but I've never read that one. Was it one of the split paperbacks?" before realising that it was a subject for discussion rather than a specific book.

Wouldn't it have been funny if EBD had actually written a book called "Bad Girls of the Chalet School"? Perhaps it would have featured a girl who didn't succumb to the "Chalet-fication" process. Hmmm - I read Lisa's drabble about the CS/Voyager crossover earlier. What if we equate the process of turning a girl into a "real CS girl" with the assimilation processes used by the Borg? Resistance is futile and all that? Razz

#25: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:44 pm
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Tamzin wrote:

Wouldn't it have been funny if EBD had actually written a book called "Bad Girls of the Chalet School"? Perhaps it would have featured a girl who didn't succumb to the "Chalet-fication" process. Hmmm - I read Lisa's drabble about the CS/Voyager crossover earlier. What if we equate the process of turning a girl into a "real CS girl" with the assimilation processes used by the Borg? Resistance is futile and all that? Razz

#26: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:41 pm
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Grizel - one of EBD's best characters. Grizel's main chance to shine is in Head Girl - where her life has not yet been stifled by a domineering father and she has lots of support from Madge and Joey, along with the rest of the school. It's once she's left school and is forced into the career chosen for her (why was her dad so keen on music anyway) that Grizel gets really bitter and who can blame her? Grizel has to put up with disappointment after disappointment. I was glad she finally got a break, even if it was a CS cliche. Grizel is not a bad person - she's an unfortunate woman whose childhood was blighted by what was probably psychological abuse and whose adult life was marred with disappointment. I think EBD threw her in to show that not everyone goes through life on easy street.

Margot - because Margot is the 'bad one' we almost never get to see her being a nice person. She has her moments - is likeabe in Ruey and New Mistress for instance - but I get the feeling whenever EBD wanted to have a Dramatic Scene if there was no-one better available she used Margot. This accounts for the books where she's 'reforming' and can be seen 'sitting quitely at her desk' which are then followed by a book in which she is horrible and has to begin to reform all over again. The problem is that EBD tells us Margot can be lovely but very rarely shows it. We're just expected to believe it. As regards the nun thing, actually I found it believable. And from Triplets onwards I think we do see a change in Margot and mnaybe she got her strength from God.

Joan - a very interesting character. At first she is a total witch - even before she gets to the CS we can see she's not a very nice person, and she's absolutely horrible to Rosamund. Morally Joan does reform. Problem Joan would never act responsibly like Wins the Trick Joan. But though she reforms, she's never accepted. I think this is one of the more believable reformations. Firstly as an older girl from a different background and with different interests it's not surprising that she doesn't really fit in with her form (Yseult never fits in either). But I think there's also an element of Joan's behaviour having been so beyond the pale that the otheres find it hard to accept her now. You don't often get that with reformation stories and I like that EBD included it. Joan doesn't have the personal charm Margot has, for eg. She finds it difficult to win others over to her side after she's made such a bad beginning. The only comparable storyline I can think of is Eustacia/Stacie. In Jo the prefects really aren't keen on Joey's idea to make Stacie magazine editress and even in New House Kitty Burnett is still bearing a grudge against her.

Mary Woodley/Phil Craven - neither of these girls are at all nice, though to give Phil her due, she is a young girl and therefore not quite as bad as Mary. I think EBD dropped these characters because they were both very unattractive, with no redeeming qualities, yet hadn't done anything bad enough to get expelled so had to be removed through other means. I think EBD would have found it impossible to not reform them had she kept them in. But there are people like that. Enid Blyton has tons of them in her books.

Joyce Linton - really one of my all time least favourite characters. I always get annoyed with Joey for not really laying into Joyce when she has the talk with her, though I realise this would probably have doen more harm than good and also since Jo had disliked Joyce from the beginning might smack of letting her personal feelings come into it. Though we don't see much of Joyce after Lintons/Rebel, from a throwaway comment in one of the later books I don't get the impression Joyce ever really reformed.

#27: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:57 pm
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I'd forgotten Joyce! Yes, she's horrible, with few redeeming features. A selfish, spoilt little madam. There is a comment somewhere about Gillian still having to run around after her, even once she (Joyce) is married. Gillian doesn't help her at school though by always making sure she's done her homework etc. She does her part in the spoiling, and thus makes a rod for her own back.

P.S. This is my 100th post! Yippee! Especially yippee because it actually isn't but just as I thought I was getting near some archiving or something happened and I lost posts. But I've made it this time!
popper

#28: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:00 pm
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Quote:

She does her part in the spoiling, and thus makes a rod for her own back.

That's true but I think Gillian was too young to know any better. The same can't be said for Mrs Linton but I suppose she was dying... But I dislike Joyce so much I don't want her to be let off in any way (I realise this is biased of me Very Happy

#29: Author: Lottie, Location: Humphrey's Corner

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:56 pm
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Hannah-Lou wrote:

Gillian doesn't help her at school though by always making sure she's done her homework etc. She does her part in the spoiling, and thus makes a rod for her own back.

I always saw this as Gillian trying to make everything as easy as possible for her mother, rather than deliberatley doing things for Joyce herself.

#30: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:40 pm
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Personally, I've always thought Joyce's major problem after the end of Lintons was simple thoughtlessness on her part. She's also in the habit of Gillian doing things for her and so it probably never occurs to her to try and cope on her own.

#31: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:27 am
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But she's such a very unattractive character in Rebel - with the whole 'ragging Miss Norman' thing. In that she is nothing but an out and out bully and personally I think that aspect of her nature remained. While she does love her mother and sister, EBD comments that it is about 'as much as she could love anyone other than herself', or something like that. Basically, she cares for others but will always put herself first.

Personally I've always felt very sorry for her daughter. It is mentioned that she loves her son but (fortunately) her husband loves the daughter best so things are evened out. I've always pictured Joyce as very possesseive of her son (woe betide his future wife) and being an absolute bitch to both husband and daughter, probably carrying on flirtations, or worse, with other men and showing little interest in what the poor girl gets up to. Could make an interesting drabble!

But maybe I'm being too harsh on Joyce. Anyone want to defend her?

#32: Author: Hannah-Lou, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:45 pm
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Loryat wrote:

But maybe I'm being too harsh on Joyce. Anyone want to defend her?

No. Unfortunately I can only too clearly picture their family life working out like that.

*sends wee plot bunny out into the world, with many treats and dandelion leaves to keep it alive until someone claims it*

#33: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:04 am
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Loryat wrote:

But she's such a very unattractive character in Rebel - with the whole 'ragging Miss Norman' thing. In that she is nothing but an out and out bully and personally I think that aspect of her nature remained. While she does love her mother and sister, EBD comments that it is about 'as much as she could love anyone other than herself', or something like that. Basically, she cares for others but will always put herself first.

Personally I've always felt very sorry for her daughter. It is mentioned that she loves her son but (fortunately) her husband loves the daughter best so things are evened out. I've always pictured Joyce as very possesseive of her son (woe betide his future wife) and being an absolute bitch to both husband and daughter, probably carrying on flirtations, or worse, with other men and showing little interest in what the poor girl gets up to. Could make an interesting drabble!

But maybe I'm being too harsh on Joyce. Anyone want to defend her?

I don't want to defend her per se but I remember reading (don't recall the book) that the daughter (wasn't she called Jocelyn?) was one of EBD's "delicate" children and that Joyce and hubby had had a lot of worry over her. That had apparently got rid of the last of the "hard shell" of selfishness to which Joyce was prone. To me that suggests that Joyce would have realised how much her daughter meant to her and perhaps wouldn't have been quite as awful as you suggest. Otherwise I could easily see her family turning out as you portrayed.

NB - I always used to pretend that Jocelyn Marvell was Joyce's daughter even though I think the text makes it clear that this is not the case.

#34: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:57 pm
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Oh, I've never read that bit. I haven't read all the books. Shame really, spoils what could have been a cracking drabble.

With Joyce as with Yseult and Thekla for eg, the final reformation happens offstage, after the character has left school. Makes me wonder if EBD couldn't bear not to reform them but also couldn't think how to do it convincingly.

#35: Author: Lisa A., Location: North Yorkshire

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:40 pm
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I have just read Problem and really liked Joan Baker as a Bad Girl - I thought EBD did a good job of portraying a character so different from the traditional Chalet girl. I get the impression EBD enjoyed describing such scenes as her tottering into the Saturday evening festivities, dolled up to the nines, and poo-pooing their traditional activities. And her scandalised outbursts , including referring to Matey as "that old Frozen Limit", seem to be written with great gusto. It seems a pity that she was brought to rights by a few cakes and a peep at the babies at Joey's house.

#36: Author: Tamzin, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:50 pm
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Loryat wrote:

Oh, I've never read that bit. I haven't read all the books. Shame really, spoils what could have been a cracking drabble.

With Joyce as with Yseult and Thekla for eg, the final reformation happens offstage, after the character has left school. Makes me wonder if EBD couldn't bear not to reform them but also couldn't think how to do it convincingly.

I think you should write the drabble anyway as it sounds like it would be really interesting. Perhaps Joyce's selfishness re-asserted itself once the daughter was out of danger Evil or Very Mad

#37: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:49 am
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Has anyone else read "From Anna" by Jean Little? It's a kids book about a girl who emigrates from Germany to Canada with her family in the 1930s.

It occurred to me because Anna could act as a poster girl for the sullen, dull EBD character - she's stocky and not at all pretty (and has thin hair), ungraceful, dull, sullen, unfriendly, stubborn, poor at academics, athletics and art and is the misfit both at home and school. In the book it's discovered that one of her main problems is incredibly bad eyesight, and the story follows her breaking out of her shell and blossoming in a new environment.

#38: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:32 am
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Joan Baker reminds me of Mary Vance in LMM's Rainbow Valley - except that Mary doesn't ever get 'reformed', on the inside anyway. I can't help thinking that Lisa A is right - that Joan would have been a favourite character if EBD had not so thoroughly sanitised her.

#39: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:01 pm
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Róisín wrote:

Joan Baker reminds me of Mary Vance in LMM's Rainbow Valley - except that Mary doesn't ever get 'reformed', on the inside anyway. I can't help thinking that Lisa A is right - that Joan would have been a favourite character if EBD had not so thoroughly sanitised her.

Interesting comparison - I always found Mary an complex character. She was generally good hearted, but was one of those people who wouldn't know sensitivity if it walked up and bit them - the kind of person who can irritate you by helping you. She was a little bit 'fast' (tended to swear, slangy, gossipy), but did try to police herself on the language. She tended to exude a holier/wiser than thou attitude, even when she was making stuff up or causing trouble, and would always provide advice, whether it was wanted or not. She got engaged young to a man her guardian didn't think was all that suitable (nor did his family).

She never really struck me as bad, though, just one of those friends who exasperates you and irritates you and doesn't realise when they're being hurtful, but is exciting and can still be a lot of fun to be around, so you never really cut them off.

#40: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:14 pm
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jennifer wrote:

Has anyone else read "From Anna" by Jean Little? It's a kids book about a girl who emigrates from Germany to Canada with her family in the 1930s.

It occurred to me because Anna could act as a poster girl for the sullen, dull EBD character - she's stocky and not at all pretty (and has thin hair), ungraceful, dull, sullen, unfriendly, stubborn, poor at academics, athletics and art and is the misfit both at home and school. In the book it's discovered that one of her main problems is incredibly bad eyesight, and the story follows her breaking out of her shell and blossoming in a new environment.

Funny, I'd never thought of Anna's negatives that way -- maybe since it's written from Anna's point of view, and things improve so dramatically for her? But it's a point.

It's an excellent book, though. I'd recommend both From Anna and its sequel, Listen to the Singing, for both characterization and the "feel" of the period.

#41: Author: Cath V-P, Location: Newcastle NSW

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:36 am
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I've read 'Listen to the Wind', but not 'From Anna', so missed that connection.

And thinking about it, Joan Baker and Dulcie from the Beany Malone series would probably have a lot in common and get on rather well. Have just imagined Beany et al at the CS..... Very Happy

#42: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:07 am
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In Beany, the part about how marrying Trighorn and having no interest in further education is right for Dulcie but wouldn't be acceptable for a Malone really reminds me of Jack's take on Joan. If I had the book with me, I'd quote it....

However, what would the CS have done with Beany's pre-Carlton admirers/ees? Maybe Andy Kern would have been acceptable, since he ends up bound for the seminary....

#43: Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:00 pm
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I've just read Theodora in HB for the first time instead of the PB. The bit set 4 years in the future where Margot is talking to Miss Annersley about how the clock has helped her to stop short when she was about to go wrong, then adds

Quote:

"And I'll have it (the clock) with me while I'm at college," she added. "After that, it must go to someone else - Phyll, perhaps. You know what I told you I hoped for. I know I don't deserve to have my heart's desire, but I have tried these past four years."
"And succeeded," Miss Annersley said with a smile. "You must wait for it Margot, but I am sure you will get it in the end."

I'm sure that's not in the PB - so EBD was clearly thinking of Margot becomming a nun at that point. And in typical EBD fashion forgot about the conversation when she had Margot braining Betty with the bookend in Triplets Rolling Eyes

#44: Author: LizzieC, Location: Canterbury, UK

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:51 pm
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Dawn wrote:

Quote:

I'm sure that's not in the PB

No, I don't think it is. I only have the PB and that's a real revelation to me. I believe (though I don't have the book with me) that the only mention of the conversation was something along the lines of "Margot confided in the head years later that the clock had been a real help in staying on the right path", rather than the actual conversation.

Thanks for that Smile

#45: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:56 pm
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It's not in the PB because when I read the online version of the HB it was the first time I had ever come accross that aside from someone on the CBB mentioning it and asking if anyone else had picked up on the hint about Margot's future.

#46: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:29 pm
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Alison H wrote:

I'm never entirely convinced by the idea of Margot becoming a nun. I appreciate that in a children's series a lot of spiritual/religious talk might not really fit, but we never really seem to see her moving towards that idea.

I agree, especially after what Jennifer says at the beginning of this thread.

#47: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:06 am
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There is a nice drabble in St Agnes just now (I think) which is about Margot's life and becoming a nun. It's already hit on a few good pointers. For example, the Canadian convent where the girls go to school is having a big impact on her in the drabble.

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