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Women: Courtship
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Author:  Lottie [ Wed May 27, 2009 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Women: Courtship
It’s generally accepted that EBD wasn’t at her best when writing about romance. Do you think this was because she couldn’t? She remained unmarried throughout her life. Had she loved, and lost, somebody in the Great War? Or did she have no experience of love at all? Maybe it was a decision by her, or her publishers, to omit any scenes of courtship. The only ones I can think of are Joey describing Jack as a solid lump of comfort (Exile), Neil’s proposal to Grizel (Reunion) and Reg’s to Len (Prefects). Otherwise, we tend to hear about an engagement or marriage after it’s actually happened. The books were being written for children, mostly in the first half of the twentieth century, so it seems perfectly reasonable that they should concentrate on school, games and Guides. The element of courtship is only necessary because we are shown some of the characters as they turn into adults. A lot of parents wouldn’t have wanted their daughters to read about romance, and, judging by Tom’s reaction to part of one of Jo’s books, many of the target audience wouldn’t have wanted it either. Do you think EBD was right to gloss over most of the details of a romance? What do you think about the methods of wooing in the Chalet World? Was there a standard method adopted by EBD, or do you think each romance is individually begun and carried through?

Lottie is still wearing an FD mod hat.
Author:  JayB [ Wed May 27, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Briefly, because I should be on my way out -

EBD does write at more length about romances elsewhere - in Janie of La Rochelle, and Jean of Storms, for example, so it's not that she didn't want to, or felt unable. Whether her descriptions of romances in those books are any good is another matter!

I think the lack of detailed romance development in the CS is down to the genre. People picking up a school story expect to read about school affairs. Any words devoted to describing someone's romance are words that can't be used to write about prep, or Middles' pranks, or staffroom scenes, etc.

Similarly someone picking up a Mills and Boon expects the focus to be on the romance and doesn't want to read lengthy descriptions of dormitories etc., even if the heroine does happen to be a mistress in a boarding school.
Author:  MJKB [ Wed May 27, 2009 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Not so sure I agree. I think the romance is an extra bonus. I don't think EBD is at her best when handling a proposal or a romantic scene, but I believe her readership enjoyed the extra dimension to the books. Exile is not primarily a school story, more an adventure story, and yet it is probably one of the most popular CS books.
On the subject of CS proposals/romances, the best handled is, in my view, Gillian's.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed May 27, 2009 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
The series is meant to be about the school, so I can understand EBD not wanting to write too much about romance/courtship.

Having said which, whilst with some couples, e.g. Madge and Jem, it comes across fairly clearly that they're seeing a lot of each other behind the scenes but that we're just not seeing it, in some cases couples just seem to jump from just being friends or even barely knowing each other to getting engaged, and that doesn't come across well at all.

There seem to be 3 main categories of romances :lol: :

1. Girl/mistress meets doctor in dramatic circumstances.
2. Girl/mistress develops a romantic relationship with a friend of the family (possibly including Gillian and Phoebe here, as their spouses were sort of "friends of the school" :lol: ).
3. Girl/mistress meets man in more "ordinary" circumstances, but these are the ones we don't really see, e.g. Sybil, Josette, Bride, Simone.

We don't really see most of the romances developing, though. I'd love to know how some of the mistresses actually managed to get to see their future spouses :lol: : Jem always seems to manage to find excuses to turn up at the CS without it being really obvious that he's come to see Madge, but we never see Phil Graves or (except for the first time he comes to the Platz, when Jack twigs that he's only saying he wants to see the CS because he fancies Biddy, which always makes me smile) Eugen Courvoisier turning up there before their marriages!
Author:  trig [ Wed May 27, 2009 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I think one of the reasons courtships aren't often written about might be that storylines are the most interesting when things go wrong or unplanned. Engagements falling through wouldn't be in the tone of the genre at all. The only time when this happens is to Juliet in and Jo. I think this was quite successful, and probably realistic in the snobbery around at the time, although why Juliet, who was such a strong, positive character, should fall for such a wet as Donal was beyond my comprehension even when I was 10!
Author:  JS [ Wed May 27, 2009 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Maybe it's just me, but I always find it a bit creepy the way EBD has men looking in meaning ways at the women they 'fancy' - even Peter Young, and I always thought that romance was handled well, on the whole. It's the intense staring which 'makes it clear what he wants' (what, what does he want??) which I think was said about Reg and various other bods, that I'd find uncomfortable.

At least with Gillian Linton and Peter Young (even if he does stare a bit!) we know they go out on her days off, that he makes an effort to get to like her friends (Janie and co) and that it wasn't a question of one meeting followed by engagement and being 'busy'.
Author:  keren [ Wed May 27, 2009 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I have just read reunion and I can tell you that I did not think much of the courtship there at all.

It starts OK, but this part seems like she just copied a few lines from her friend phyllis Mas (whatever her name was).

It is like,
he turns up
he says to her

"Is it yes..." (we did not hear a question)

Then

"I want the right to take care of you.."

then
She surrendered!

So clichy and heavy handed

On the other hand the things jo says about Reg in this bok are actually very sensible
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed May 27, 2009 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
It seems to be almost soap-operaish in the way that some romaces are portrayed; there is 'the look' (to any 'Emmerdale' fans - Gennie and Bob?!?) which then justifies any subsequent kissing/heavy innuendo/secret affairs. EBD seems to take the same approach - the audience just need to see one scene to understand that these people are deeply in love.

I suppose that it has to be the case for the genre, but at the same time the early romances are so beautiful compared to later scenes. I don't know if maybe that is just the setting - who can honestly say that they wouldn't enjoy being swept off their feet by a handsome doctor in the middle of EBD's mountain scenery?
Author:  Emma A [ Wed May 27, 2009 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
It does make a difference to how one feels about the husband-to-be if one has read the unabridged version of the book(s) in which he prosecutes his courtship. I don't think EBD does it at all badly in, say, Three Go, and it's nice that we get to see both Gillian's and Peter's thoughts or feelings - it's also drawn out enough to feel realistic, but without being overly protracted. Jem's and Jack's courtships of Madge and Joey are also rather delicately done, and in both cases the reader is aware of their feelings for the lady in question, and aware of how Madge and Joey feel about it.

Where it does become unrealistic is in the direct portrayal of proposals - I do think that EBD would have done better to keep Neil's and Reg's "proposals" in the background, and not to show us in such excruciating detail their appalling proposals! In What Katy Did Next, for example, Ned's proposal to Katy takes place almost entirely off-screen, and it's only when she's returned to Burnet and Clover is questioning her that her engagement is made apparent (though Coolidge treats Clover's and Dorry's engagements more explicitly - and Dorry's to Isabel is awful). I'm still happier about Neil's proposal than Reg's though, since Grizel is a grown woman, and has experienced pain and sorrow; and Neil seems like a man who is definitely going to keep her from harm!

We don't hear much about the courtship of even characters such as Gisela and Marie - so I guess that EBD only showed such things when they really impacted the plots of her books.
Author:  Loryat [ Wed May 27, 2009 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
JayB wrote:
Similarly someone picking up a Mills and Boon expects the focus to be on the romance and doesn't want to read lengthy descriptions of dormitories etc., even if the heroine does happen to be a mistress in a boarding school.

Lol that would be awesome! Though you know what would happen in the dormitories...it would be a bit wrong really.

I think the Madge/Jem and Joey/Jack relationships are very nicely handled, actually. I think the other romances are less convinving maybe because EBD didn't care so much about the characters so couldn't really be bothered...and with Len/Reg, she wasn't writing at her best with anything, not just romance. Plus I think she wanted to get the triplets settled before she died - Len engaged, Margot settled on being a nun, and Con definitely going to be a writer, whatever else she does.

Having said that I do quite like the Frank/Phoebe relationship, even if it does have its ethical dilemmas. :oops:

I think the main problem with the later relationships is that the men are just Doctors. Jack and Jem are funny and I like them and did when I was younger, whatever anyone else says! They were born when EBD was writing at her best, though.

I have just read Dimsie Grows Up in which Dimsie spoiler: ends up deciding to marry a doctor(!) who has proposed to her twice, and she's also proposed to by one of her school friends's brother. So she gets quite a lot of romance in (and also handles her friend's romance) before making her decision. Also, the bits where Dimsie wrestles with the idea of whether she can help people once she's married and if that should stand in her way are interesting though a bit nauseating, you'd think she was Jesus the way they go on about her 'healing'. But the bit where she shows Peter the poem is quite sweet. All in all I would say the romance in this book is fairly well handled - if strangely and with a couple of cliches - and Dimsie definitely gets to know her Doctor before saying Yes. On the other hand this book is definitely not a school story, while all of EBD's, with the possible exception of Jo to the Rescue, are.
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu May 28, 2009 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I only read Jean of Storms recently - and God, the courtship scenes are wonderfully bad!

The hero admires the heroine's 'delicate face with its Greek purity of contour', apparently because it's 'so unlike what he would have expected from a Scots woman' - which I would have said was more than a bit insulting to Scots women! And EBD's single best line ever, when the hero returns home to his lonely bachelor pad and feels '... as he had never felt before, the want of a woman to sit facing him as he read a new book on pulmonary complaints'. :D

They go from pure Mills and Boon, where the doctor hero and ethereal green-clad heroine rouse one another's devils:

Quote:
"Better be a brute than a heartless flirt -- as you are!" He interrupted her, madly.
Jean sprang to her feet. He rose to his. Man and woman, they stood there, rage gleaming in their faces. She was nearly as tall as he and her eyes were almost on a level with his. He almost shrank, appalled at the fury of their green depth. And he was as much startled by the devil she had aroused in him.
"You cad!" She said at length, in low tones of concentrated anger. "I didn't think even you could sink to such depths! Thank heaven, I have learnt what you are!"


to SLOC stuff, after a brush with death in a cave (sounding familiar?):

Quote:
The tall figure of the doctor confronted her and when he came forward and took her into his arms, she gave a little sigh of relief and nestled to him like a child.
“Jeanie, my little Jeanie," he said tenderly
Jean raised her green eyes to his face with a look in them that made him catch his breath.
"Yes, I am yours," she said and gave him her lips.


At least Joey, Grizel or Len never did anything so anatomically unlikely...
Author:  JB [ Thu May 28, 2009 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I agree with Sunglass about the awfulness of the romance in Jean of Storms and as this was an adult book, I don't think EBD's problems are down to including romance in a school story.

Madge and Jem's relationship is well handled and I like Joey's gentle teasing of Madge. There are some hints about Jack and Joey - Jack tells her she'll have to grow up someday in Camp and Marie clearly has him in mind in New House when Joey says she doesn't know anyone she could marry. We know they spend time together when Joey isn't at school eg they both go to meet the Lintons when they arrive at Weising.

I like Gillian and Peter too, even though he does "the look" and knows within 2 minutes of meeting her that he'd like to marry her, because it feels natural. They meet, are attracted to each other and Janie Lucy helps it along.

It definitely works better when the proposals are "off screen". Grizel and Neil reads like a Mills and Boon .

I like Dimsie Grows Up as we see her realise who she does want to marry and why, as we do with Jen and Maidlin in the Abbey Girls. All of these characters mature in front of the reader and it works well (I love Maid of the Abbey). We just don't see that with Len.
Author:  MJKB [ Thu May 28, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
JB wrote:
Madge and Jem's relationship is well handled and I like Joey's gentle teasing of Madge. There are some hints about Jack and Joey - Jack tells her she'll have to grow up someday in Camp and Marie clearly has him in mind in New House when Joey says she doesn't know anyone she could marry. We know they spend time together when Joey isn't at school eg they both go to meet the Lintons when they arrive at Weising.


I like the steady development of the relationship between Joey and Jack too. It's realistic, satisfying and well handled by EBD. Mind you, she might have settled on a more romantic expression than 'solid lump of comfort!'
Author:  Sunglass [ Thu May 28, 2009 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
JS wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I always find it a bit creepy the way EBD has men looking in meaning ways at the women they 'fancy'...


I think what I find odd and rather disconcerting is that EBD is writing school stories for a female readership, and virtually her entire cast of characters, girls, old girls and mistresses, is female, and, understandably enough,the characters whose eyes we see the action through are almost 100% female - apart from when courtship is on the cards, when we quite often get only, or mostly, the 'intense stares' of male characters looking at these women and noting their dewy beauty etc etc.

I appreciate these are school stories, and courtship is a minor part of their remit, but I do find it odd that she feels able to depict what little does go on from a male point of view, but not from the POV of the woman involved. I agree that the Gillian Linton/Clement Young courtship is one of the nicer and more well-realised 'short-term' ones, but even then, given that she's a familiar, long-standing CS character, and he's only been introduced a few pages earlier, we mostly get him eyeing her, and lingering descriptions of her blue eyes and black hair, rather than what she's feeling about him, or whether she's attracted to him. You never get an EBD woman thinking 'That man is rather handsome' or 'I like his looks' - clearly much too unladylike and Joan Baker- ish for her 'young-minded' heroines!

Even though it's great that actually see a reference to an actual date rather than a leap straight to engagement and marriage in Three, the way Gillian Linton is described at the end of the day sounds as though she didn't actively participate in any of it, and possibly wasn't even present!

Quote:
Mr. Young must have made good use of his time, for she found to her amazement that not only had she agreed to ask Miss Annersley if he might come over on the next Wednesday to see the school, but she had arranged to meet him on her "free" afternoon, which was the Tuesday,
Author:  MJKB [ Fri May 29, 2009 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Sunglass wrote:
the way Gillian Linton is described at the end of the day sounds as though she didn't actively participate in any of it, and possibly wasn't even present!


That tended to be the convention at that time, particularly in children's literature. The man was the hunter and the woman couldn't appear to be too interested or she risked coming across as 'bold' or 'unmaidenly.' Having said that, it does seem a bit extreem when you think of Gillian's age and the fact that it is on the cusp of the '60's.
Author:  JB [ Fri May 29, 2009 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
MKJB wrote:

Quote:
Having said that, it does seem a bit extreem when you think of Gillian's age and the fact that it is on the cusp of the '60's.


I think Three Go was set - and written - in the mid/late 1940s, so a different set of social codes to the late 1950s.
Author:  JayB [ Fri May 29, 2009 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I don't think things really began to change until the mid '60s, and there were still plenty of people around with traditional or conservative views on life and relationships well into the '70s.
Author:  Sunglass [ Sun May 31, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
But think of LM Montgomery's books. It's a different genre, and so you'd expect more focus on courtship in general, but LMM doesn't shy away from showing Anne Shirley gradually change her mind about and fall in love with the man she initially thinks of as a platonic friend - we even get to see her being swept away briefly by a suitor she thinks she loves but doesn't. Clearly you're not going to get so much detail in a school story that doesn't have an exclusive focus on a single heroine, but what strikes me is that the courtship is all from Anne's point of view, though with some sections briefly from the POV of Gilbert, or some other male, admiring her starry grey eyes and slim figure etc etc. In EBD's it's as though we get the brief sections from Gilbert's POV, admiring Gillian Linton's face or 'wanting' Len, but without getting anything from Anne/Gillian/Len's side.

If LMM, writing much earlier, didn't have an issue with presenting a heroine - who is also 'girlish' and uninterested in love affairs etc for a long time, and who certainly isn't a boy-mad flirt like Ruby Gillis - falling in love, I genuinely don't see why EBD appears to have felt it was 'unladylike' to present some of her courtships from a female perspective. We even get courtship from the point of view of three throroughly respectable young women in the Little Women books!

Perhaps it's just a quirk of her own, or something she simply wasn't interested in writing about. Even in the adult Jean of Storms (which I hope we are going to discuss sometime here, if there hasn't already been a discussion - it's such an odd novel!), which features two major female characters who fall in love and marry the local vicar and doctor - and this is pretty much what the novel is about, so her readers would have expected a focus on courtship - she seems very uncomfortable in the sections where she's writing about the doctor from Jean's point of view, even though this is one of the main plot points...
Author:  Kate [ Sun May 31, 2009 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
They're both North American series, whereas EBD is English. Would that make a difference? I imagine it would - American girls would have had more freedom at that time.
Author:  MJKB [ Sun May 31, 2009 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I'm glad Sunglass brought up the Anne/Gilbert courtship. I was thinking about it in relation to EBD's treatment of romance but wasn't quite sure how to show the contrast. Anne is all a heroine of a children's book should be, clever, self deprecating, moral, 'ladylike', and had that 'next door to being beautiful' allure about her, yet, as Sunglass points out, she is very much a player in her own courtship. (Anne's proposal is the most wonderful proposal in English literature, imvho.)That's the case also for the 3 girls in Little Women and, to a lesser extent, in Katy Next. Furthermore, EBD handled the Joey/Jack and Madge/Jem relationships well and with no apparent embarrassment. Of the subsequent romances only Gillian's and Peter's is easy reading. Of course in the aforementioned ones she doesn't attempt a proposal, so maybe that's what makes them so toe curling, but I'm not really convinced that's the case. The scene at the end of Jo of when Madge tells Joey about her engagement is quite lovely, and not a bit embarrassing.
Author:  Lottie [ Sun May 31, 2009 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Sunglass wrote:
Jean of Storms, which I hope we are going to discuss sometime here.

It should be coming around in just over a month's time.

Lottie, wearing her temporary mod hat.
Author:  elementary [ Sun May 31, 2009 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
MJKB wrote:
Anne is all a heroine of a children's book should be, clever, self deprecating, moral, 'ladylike', and had that 'next door to being beautiful' allure about her, yet, as Sunglass points out, she is very much a player in her own courtship.


I think I remember hearing that "Anne" was written for girls of college age, rather than children, so that might be why LMM is allowed to show the courtship?
Author:  Sunglass [ Sun May 31, 2009 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Lottie wrote:
Sunglass wrote:
Jean of Storms, which I hope we are going to discuss sometime here.

It should be coming around in just over a month's time.

Lottie, wearing her temporary mod hat.


Excellent! I only just read it recently, and thought it was fascinating.

About Anne and Gilbert vs CS courtships - whatever the exact age of the intended readership, Anne of Avonlea and Anne of the Island where the A-G love plot is raised and they become engaged, are from 1909 and 1915, decades before EBD wrote the Joey/Jack engagement, and c. half a century, give or take a few years, before she writes Reg and Len's relationship! Even if you factor in that LMM may have had slightly older girls in mind, and that she was writing about rural Canadian society, it still seems as though LMM wrote about courtship from a young woman's point of view with a freedom and frankness (and lack of fear of her beloved Anne being thought unladylike or man-mad) that EBD, considerably later, didn't feel able to. EBD must have known that classic girls' books (that her readership would have known) could and did deal with courtship - so I do find myself wondering what was making her so inhibited about showing, even in a mild way, indications of it from the POV of her female characters? Personal inhibitions? Some kind of conflicted sense that women, with all their new opportunities, shouldn't be portrayed as prioritising that kind of thing? Applying narrow real-life mid-century fears of being thought unlady-like to herself and her characters? Realising it wasn't one of her strengths as a writer?

The intended readership issue for the CS is interesting, though - but probably deserves its own thread...
Author:  Alison H [ Sun May 31, 2009 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Good Wives, What Katy Did Next and (slightly different case as these were autobiographical, but even so) to some extent the later Little House books all deal with courtship from the point of view of the female characters, and they were all written decades before EBD's books were. Even the Elsie books show the sainted Elsie falling for an unsuitable man before realising that he's a bad lot and marrying her dad's best mate instead!

Interestingly, when Len realises that there's something going on between Grizel and Neil and is pleased about it, we're told that Len is "as romantic as most girls her age" are.

The point about readership age could well explain it ... although the style and vocabulary of the books suggests that they were aimed at an older audience than, say, the Malory Towers books were.
Author:  MJKB [ Sun May 31, 2009 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I'm pretty certain that the Annebooks, Little Women, Katyetc are all aimed at the same age group as that of the CS. And, in fairness to EBD, the breadth of her CS books is on par with the above. As I've pointed out already, the Tirol books deal with romance and courtship in a very competent and fairly frank manner. We all realise that Madge is in love with Jem and that Jack has his sights set on Joey and there is no sense of coyness about either situation. It's the books set in the fifties and written in the early to late sixties that the exaggerated sense of 'delicacy' creeps in.
Interestingly, LM Alcott's writing deteriorates after Lttle Women and Good Wives. Little Men, and particularly Jo's Boysare very inferior to the earlier books. The character of Jo too deteriorates considerably and she becomes a preachy and moralistic adult, rather like Joey, in fact. Anybody agree?
Author:  Kate [ Sun May 31, 2009 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Are there any English books for that age group that deal with courtship in that manner though? All of the examples are North American.
Author:  Nightwing [ Sun May 31, 2009 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Kate wrote:
Are there any English books for that age group that deal with courtship in that manner though? All of the examples are North American.


According to my Mum, when she was a kid (in the late 50's and early 60's) her and her friends read mostly English books until they started to get interested in boys and romance, and then they switched to reading mostly American books instead. I wonder if it was a case of English publishers not thinking topics of love and romance were interesting/appropriate for children?

EBD sometimes talks about North American girls being more 'sophisticated' than English ones (and not necessarily in a positive way), and I think I've seen this idea from other British authors too - maybe that was one of the reasons why? American girls were allowed to think about boyfriends and romance, but British girls weren't meant to think about them until they one day woke up and were adults, not children?
Author:  Sunglass [ Sun May 31, 2009 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
MJKB wrote:
the Tirol books deal with romance and courtship in a very competent and fairly frank manner. We all realise that Madge is in love with Jem and that Jack has his sights set on Joey and there is no sense of coyness about either situation.


I think the only thing I'd say to that is that is that, while I entirely agree the Madge and Jem courtship is attractively presented, and frankly written, it's presented almost entirely externally, as you'd expect. from Joey's point of view - which is natural, because the schoolgirl, rather than the headmistress sister is the main character in a school story. So you don't feel (or at least I don't) as a reader that anything is missing by not getting it from Madge's point of view.

I suppose it starts to get slightly odd for me with Joey and Jack's 'non-courtship' - we've spent so much time, novels and novels inside Joey's mind by Exile, we've watched her grow up and leave school and change and practically die dozens of times, that it feels odd that her love for Jack sort of gets sprung on us, as though we don't know Joey's mind well, so that the actual 'SLOC' revelation is only revealed to us the way it is to Madge, astonished and shutting the door on the two of them. And then we skip straight be being Grizel being shown the ring, equally surprised and external. We expect to see things from Joey's POV, apart usually from her brushes with death when she's unconscious, so it feels odd that we have to step out of her mind to be told of her engagement from 'outside'. In fact, we don't really get it from Jack's POV either...
Author:  MJKB [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Sunglass wrote:
so it feels odd that we have to step out of her mind to be told of her engagement from 'outside'. In fact, we don't really get it from Jack's POV either...


Yes, true, but didn't we get a few hints now and then, at least about how Jack felt? While I wasn't impressed with the 'solid lump of comfort' declaration, I really liked the fact that Joey has Jack with her when the Spartz group have to flee Tirol. At least it gave one 'scope for imagination' thinking about how much comfort they must have derived from each other's company on that dangerous journey into safety. (Definitely plenty of scope there......) The odd scenes they have together in the early years of their marriage are lovely too, as you do get the impression that they really love each other. And the main thing is that they aren't embarrassing to read about. (Well, perhaps, a little bit on occasions!).The same can't be said about Grizel and Niall or Len and Reg, however.
I still claim that EBD's ability to write about romance and courtship deteriorated in the 50's and 60's or else she became increasingly prudish.
Author:  KatS [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
I recently re-read Michelle Magorian's Back Home, which is set around the same time as the CS books (post-war), and describes a huge difference between the attitude to "courtship" here and in Britain, to the extent that Rusty's (admittedly old-fashioned) father forbids her to talk to any boys until she leaves school, whereas in the US having male friends and boyfriends was considered normal. I don't know whether that accurately reflects a real difference in attitudes across the Atlantic, though.
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
In Lorna Hill's books - '40s/'50s/'60s - a lot of the heroines have a close childhood male friend, who in their late teens becomes a boyfriend rather than a boy friend and whom they eventually marry, in the "tradition" of Anne and Gilbert. Maybe EBD might've found it easier to write about courtship if the books hadn't been set in an environment where boys didn't have much place - although seeing as she seemed to prefer girls to marry much older men it might not have worked anyway. The only real childhood male friend we see, other than the Richardsons, is Tony Barras, and I can't imagine him ever ending up with Mary-Lou - she'd've eaten him for breakfast!
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
MJKB wrote:
I still claim that EBD's ability to write about romance and courtship deteriorated in the 50's and 60's or else she became increasingly prudish.


Oh, no arguments whatsoever there! Even if you leave aside the question of whether Reg is a thoroughly Bad Idea for a naive schoolgirl, and take into account that EBD was aware of trying to 'settle' all three triplets' futures before she ran out of time, you really get a sense of her writing being under severe strain in those few passages where we are inside Len's head thinking about Reg.

In fact, even then, we're not really privy to all her thoughts. There are several bits, like that one where Len and Hilda discuss young marriage, where Len goes away with her mind 'settled' about something - but we're not told what! I suppose it's just about plausible that it never actually consciously occurs to Joey that she was falling in love with Jack until Robin goes missing, and Jack never pushed things, but Reg is a pusher, and Len is aware of the situation and thinking about it, but EBD won't let us in on her thoughts! Even though it's the most 'respectable' of engagements - to a doctor and long-term friend of the family, marriage to take place after Oxford etc etc, and engagements and marriages and children are so common in the CS books, and regarded with such pleasure and curiosity...
Author:  JS [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
Kate wrote:
Quote:
Are there any English books for that age group that deal with courtship in that manner though? All of the examples are North American.



I've tried to write this in a way that there are no spoilers in case people haven't read and want to read these books. If you feel I've given away too much, let me know and I'll edit.

I was thinking about Lorna Hill too (whom Alison mentioned above) - not so much the Wells, books, although there was plenty of romantic stuff in them, but the Annette Dancy series. Hill has Annette (in Dancer in Danger, I think) fall for the charms of a bloke who was a bit of a cad (whom she kisses!). This experience, rather realistically, I think, makes her suspicious about whether Angus is serious about her, and leaves her prey to the machinations of an unpleasant trouble-maker.

In the Wells series too, we get different motives for marriage laid out openly. Vile Fiona makes no secret of why she's marrying her even viler husband, for example. And we see Mariella fall for Nigel, even, possibly, throw herself at him a little (shock horror), and stoop to all sorts of un-Chalet-like behaviour to make him jealous.

The Drina books, although written a little later (first published 1957 and on into the 1980s, bizarrely) are also quite forthright about courtship and love - and different motivations. We have Jenny and her farmer, whom she loves with a quiet, non-passionate love (and gets to farm, which is what she wanted to do!) and Drina's really quite lengthy courtship with Grant, whom she loves passionately, despite being so young and young-looking. We see Rose going out on a 'date' with Igor partly because her mother expects her to be going out with boys at her age - whereas Drina's grandparents certainly don't think she should be. Shades of Joan Baker attitudes there, although Estoril isn't judgmental about it at all.
Author:  MJKB [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Women: Courtship
The adult author I've always regarded as a natural continuation of the GO books is Agatha Christie. I love her books, not because of their plots - heaven forbid,(I exclude Roger Ackroyd and a few others from that last comment) but because of the ambience of country houses they evoke.Now, while she does have references to sex, her books are devoid of anything even close to explicit. Her references are stated quite matter of factly, but any of her characters who display an overt interest in 'those matters' is usually quite vulgar and the target of contempt by her upper middle class cast(e). So is it the stiff upper lip image of the British mc which pervades the genre? I'm reading Gwen Courtney's Wild Lorings at the moment and her schoolgirls are pretty nearly interchangeable with the CS girls. I can't imagine any of them being remotely interested in boys in the manner of Joan Baker. Her Sally's Family, which is a lovely story btw, has several blooming romances but very much in the CS style.
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