The CBB :: View topic - Themes: Fecundity

That could be explained by Nicola knowing how babies are made and Len not - the eww factor is mainly the idea of your parents having sex

Please God tell me Len didn't agree to get married still thinking that you pray for a baby after you get married, and God sends it in the doctor's black bag?

Please God tell me Len didn't agree to get married still thinking that you pray for a baby after you get married, and God sends it in the doctor's black bag? Does Len really not know that her parents have what someone called on the Dick and Mollie thread A Passionate Marriage?

EBD came from a small family herself. What about EJO? Louisa May Alcott was a singleton, wasn't she? Maybe they all felt the odd ones out at a time when families tended to be large due to lack of contraception etc? And, of course, they wouldn't have experienced any of the privations of such big families first hand either, so might have had a rosier view of them.

Meanwhile, Aunt Sadie was doing what she could to influence Polly, but as she much too shy to speak to her directly on such intimate subjects as sex and marriage she used an oblique method of letting fall an occasional reflection....

'Always remember, children, that marriage is a ery intimate relationship, it's not just sitting and chatting to a person, there are other things you know,'

"It is unfair, nobody ever tells. Sadie doesn't even know, that's quite obvious, and Louisa is an old prig, but we did think we could count on Linda and you. Very well then, we shall go to our marriage beds in ignorance, like Victorian ladies, and in the morning we shall be found stark staring mad with horror nd live sixty more years in an expensive bin, and then perhaps you'll wish you had been more helpful"

I think, unfortunately, that an awful lot of people entering marriage at this time, or certainly a few years earlier, were completely ignorant of the facts...

As for 'long' families, it's only Joey's which would strike me as big for the time, and even that size of a family wouldn't have been particularly uncommon, certainly here in Ireland. Both my parents (born late 1940s) were one of six children, and even when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s there were several families in our neighbourhood who had eleven children, and one which had thirteen!

In 1900 the ‘total fertility rate’, the rate of child-bearing, measured as if all women experienced it as they went through life, was equivalent to a completed family size of 3.5 children. The rate has fallen throughout the century and by 1997 had fallen to 1.7 children.

I'd agree entirely about Ireland - I have huge families of relatives, and my partner's mother is the eldest of thirteen, and there were two or three stillborn children also - but I don't think average family size was anywhere near as big in the UK by the 1950s.

Cel wrote:

I think, unfortunately, that an awful lot of people entering marriage at this time, or certainly a few years earlier, were completely ignorant of the facts...

I appreciate that, but with the sheer prevalence of babies at Freudesheim, Joey and Jack's progressive ethos of not babying their elder children, and the CS ethos of not keeping the realities of life, whether that's death or the evils of Nazism, from the girls? Or do people think sex would have been a reality too far?

I read something recently about this, and got the impression that while young women would tend to have an idea that something physical was involved, the actual detail was often completely shrouded in mystery. Which led to a lot of (genuine) wedding night trauma, and for many women a lifelong revulsion for the whole thing. Also, while Joey and Jack didn't baby the children with regard to issues like serious illness etc, they did try to 'keep them young' about more worldly topics. But I'd like to think that once the engagement was settled, Joey would bite the bullet and talk to Len..

I wonder who told Madge about what was expected in the marriage bed?

Perhaps Jem just sedated her?

So her possible "talk" to Joey would start, "On your wedding night you may hear someone creep into your boudoir, but don't worry, it'll just be Jack, with a syringe..."

I doubt it - I should imagine that by the second twins, Joey's screams could be heard across the Platz :shock:

Surely the fact that Joey has to rest for so long after her babies are born would indicate physical excursion, particularly by the time that they're teenagers?

I wonder who told Madge about what was expected in the marriage bed?

I wonder if Madge had a similar chat to Joey before she married Jack? Somehow, i think not, seeing as she could not even bring herself to tell Joey when she was pregnant.

Joey seems pretty clueless about the birds and the bees as a teenager. I seem to remember Madge "dropping a hint" when she was expecting Sybil (how old would Joey have been??), and expecting Joey to guess from that (and the fact that she must have had a large "bump" :roll:

). But Joey was completely oblivious.

Lesley wrote:

I wonder who told Madge about what was expected in the marriage bed?

I'd like to think it was her mother, but that's probably hoping too much.

Selena wrote:

). But Joey was completely oblivious.

On that latter point, I think Sybil was early - and it may have been that Madge had a discrete, hidable, bump the last time Joey saw her before the baby actually arrived, but I really can't see why it would have been so wrong for Madge to tell Joey that in [whichever month] she would have a new little neice or nepew.

This might not be a very authoritative source of information, but in Rosamund Pilcher's book 'Coming Home', the main character, who would be roughly a contemporary of Joey's, has had some degree of sex ed at school (given by the headmistress

), so it's presumably feasible that CS girls got some information, say in biology lessons.

I would imagine that Chalet girls found out about the facts of life the same way most of us did. From friends, older siblings, and reading forbidden books. They were probably not as sheltered as we imagine, and these things do get discussed among kids. :wink:

This discussion is making me wonder (and I probably sound like a right idiot for asking) but if the women had no idea what was going to happen, or weren't supposed to, the men must have learnt - but how? Would it be easier for a father to take a son aside, or said son to have lessons in school?

I assume that EBD felt it would be too upsetting for young readers for one of Joey or Madge's children to die.

We don't see much of the second generation's health problems even when they do happen.

I remember reading somewhere that EBD was heavily influenced by Charlotte Yonge, hence the cries of, "Just like a Charlotte Yonge family" from various girls when finding out about Joey's family! So I take it Yonge's characters generally had long families? Did they have multiple twins and triplets too?

I know miscarriages happened -- certainly our family could conceivably have had 10 living offspring rather than 8 -- but only one family I knew spoke openly of their "babies in heaven."

Well, I'm a Catholic of a rather later stripe than the Maynards, but certainly if Joey had had a stillborn baby, Catholic teaching up until some point in the very recent past (I think it may have been removed from the catechism during the 1990s and the position now is much more open since some point post-2000) was that those babies, being unbaptised, did not go to Heaven, but to Limbo, because, despite being without personal sin, they still had original sin. It was a particularly vicious doctrinal position for parents who had lost a baby, because they couldn't hope for a reunion in the afterlife. I'm less sure when unbaptised infants started being allowed to be buried in consecated ground, but it might be as late (depending on the place, and the enlightenment/willingness to look the other way of your priest) as post-Vatican II.

Although it sounds to me as though one of the reasons this became an issue again in the last twenty years or so was because there were so many different theories floating about from different theologians and individual priests, and so much disagreement.

As most of the babies are only mentioned when they appear (I think a couple of Joey's later ones are mentioned) then there could easily have been several miscarriages and stillbirths without it being mentioned (especially in front of the 'children').

Doesn't Gisela lose a few children in infancy?

The flowers' leaves. . . serve as bridal beds which the Creator has so gloriously arranged, adorned with such noble bed curtains, and perfumed with so many soft scents that the bridegroom with his bride might there celebrate their nuptials with so much the greater solemnity. . .
The sexual basis of Linnaeus's plant classification was controversial in its day; although easy to learn and use, it clearly did not give good results in many cases. Some critics also attacked it for its sexually explicit nature: one opponent, botanist Johann Siegesbeck, called it "loathsome harlotry".

Maybe Botany was taught to the CS so they had some idea of reproduction?

I very much hope that this is not offensive to anyone but I can't help but wonder what Jesus makes of people quibbling about the niceties of Limbo.

and so terribly sad that so many bereaved families must have been so hurt by the idea that they would not be reunited with their unbaptised child

The midwife, or anyone who was there, could baptise a newborn, couldn't they? Then the child would be taken to church to be baptised 'properly' when strong enough. I think it's said, but can't recall in which book, that Barbara Chester was so frail at birth that Peter baptised her on the spot. (At least, I'm fairly sure it was Barbara, it might have been said about some other very delicate child.)

Baptism (for a Catholic) is the one sacrament which may be administered/ undertaken by a lay person

Selena wrote:

Quote:

Perhaps Jem just sedated her?

So her possible "talk" to Joey would start, "On your wedding night you may hear someone creep into your boudoir, but don't worry, it'll just be Jack, with a syringe..."

Somewhere in the archives there is a drabble on that ve ry subject.

JayB wrote:

Baptism (for a Catholic) is the one sacrament which may be administered/ undertaken by a lay person for precisely this reason. All the other sacraments (confirmation, marriage, ordination, etc) have to be performed by a priest or bishop.

On Woman's Hour yesterday, there was a discussion on only children, which caught my ear (I have Radio Four burbling in the other room, as I can't work in absolute silence - the fruits of growing up in a busy and LOUD household).

And as I am also currently re-reading The British Museum is Falling Down, by David Lodge, I wonder whether EBD really understood the issues facing young married Catholics?! She always presents Joey's child bearing as though it is a choice, and under control (which may mean Joey and Jack's marriage is, how shall I put it... well regulated).

“I see I shall have to consider those quads I threatened you all with – how long ago, now? – nine years, isn’t it? Yes; nine years it is. The twins weren’t a year old and they’ll be nine in September. I shouldn’t mind now that Phil is practically on her feet again. I miss having a baby.”
“Aren’t eleven enough for you? Families of that size come expensive these days.”
“It’s not so bad as it sounds. The triplets and Steve have their own money that Grannie Maynard left them. [...] That’s four of them more or less provided for. It’s education that costs so much during the early years and the girls have cost us nothing there apart from extras like music and so on. However, four all at once might be rather much. Anyhow, I can’t just arrange it to suit myself.”
“Joey, does this mean that you are really adding to your family?”
“Wait and see,” Joey said aggravatingly.

Contraception was around before the Pill..albeit less reliable and 'easy'. (think Dr Marie Stopes ).

It probably is in perfect 'social' context, tho'

Just because she and Jack are presumably good at not conceiving accidentally (well, as far as we know! though I suppose could have a poll for 'Maynard child most likely to have been an accident'?), doesn't mean that you can flip that round to be able to conceive even the common or garden single baby whenever you please...

I've always read Phoebe's situation as being that she was told that she shouldn't have children because of her medical condition, rather than that she actually couldn't because of fertility problems.

That remark made by whichever mistress it was about Joyce Linton annoys me because it directly implies that not having a child, or having only one child, is the voluntary decision of someone selfish and silly like Joyce, who doesn't want the bother of children. Whereas, as the Radio 4 discussion (which is available on the R4 website playback option), pointed out, it isn't possible to assume, especially pre-Pill and before many of the modern aids to infertility etc, that childlessness or having a small family was voluntary at all. It seems to me a fairly brutal statement in the circumstances.

But I agree that in the circumstances - assuming that Jack and Joey are not Catholics who used 'artificial' contraception in the hope and expectation that it would be permitted by Vatican II - Joey's sense of control over her own fertility is surprisingly modern, given that her only methods of control are regulating sex carefully, or abstinence.

I understood there was a huge expectation among middle class Catholic couples in the late 60's, and presumably before that, that the Vatican would allow contraception between married couples. [...]
I can see no reason why Joey would so often emphasise the choice option when discussing an increase in her family unless there is an implication that family size is a matter of choice between a couple.

elative family size/fertility control could have been an obvious difference between (non-contraception-using) Catholics and non-Catholics in the UK in the 1950s and 60s (don't know about the Continent).

...it seemed to those brought up in the system [the Catholic Church] that to question one part of it was to question all of it, and to pick and choose among its moral imperatives, flouting those which were inconveniently difficult, was simply hypocritical. This rage for consistency was probably characteristic of British and American Catholicism - Continental European cultures being more tolerant of contradiction between principle and practice

(Imagine how different the start of Adrienne would be if Robin and the others were post-Vatican II plainclothes worker nuns in mini-skirts who lived in the slums!)

Author:	Róisín [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Themes: Fecundity
I don't think we need a list of all the multiple births in Chalet-land, or the large families to prove that this is a topic... But really. What is the reason for all the children in EBD's books? Large families could possibly be explained by the religion of those characters, and by the general culture of the time... but did she save especially large families for particular characters, and why? Similarly with multiple births, which possibly cannot be explained in the same practical sense - does anyone have any ideas what was behind EBD's thinking in this? What's interesting is that she was not alone - Elsie Jeanette Oxenham went in for the same fascination with multiple births, and I'm sure there are others (and other authors from the same period who didn't, as well). Please join in the discussion below

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I'd love to know the answer to that! 3 of my 4 grandparents came from big families, and one of my great-grandparents was one of 13, and I would think that many people of their generations were the same; but it was just accepted that unless a couple had fertility problems then that was the way it was. There was no widespread access to/knowledge of contraception, and also contraception was often disapproved of for religious or cultural or just general reasons. Having a big family certainly wasn't seen as something to boast about or to get competitive with your friends and relatives about . However, it's clearly seen as some sort of status symbol in the CS, with particular kudos earned by having twins or triplets. In some cultures and at some periods of history there've been specific reasons why having a big family was good - lots of "spares" to the heir at times of high infant mortality, having lots of sons being seen as some kind of macho thing, having lots of children to help you in a subsistence economy - but none of those things apply in the world of the CS or the Abbey books. Individuals may have wanted big families - Joey pretty much grew up as an only child, because she was so much younger than Madge and Dick, and that could explain why she wanted a lot of children - but it seems to be a big deal with everyone. Maybe it's just that having a lot of children was seen as proving your credentials as a good wife and mother, but it seems very strange that so much emphasis is put on what was just, for those lucky enough to have a partner and to have no difficulties conceiving, was basically just a natural process. The constant harping on about the wonders of big families must have been very upsetting for those who wanted children and couldn't have them. Just trying to think where else there are twins in books which might have influenced EBD. Meg and John have twins in Little Women, Anne and Gilbert have twins (and we hear about how the people whom Anne once lived with have several sets of twins), but I think it's only in EBD and EJO books that people turn having big families into some sort of competition and status symbol.

Author:	Tor [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
KatS' recent compilation of some CS statistics was quite interesting as it showed that there seemed to be a real dichotomy: you either had no children or you had a lot. It's almost like EBD was extending her opinions on not slacking or coasting in the schoolroom to the.. erm... bedroom! On a sociobiological note, high extrinsic mortality risk in adults is often correlated with an earlier age of reproduction, and what is called a 'faster' strategy for reproduction (more offspring, less investment in each). Being facetious, I'd say that the avalanche and flood prone environment of the CS counted as a high-risk environment.... ... but no one actually ever seems to die (apart from Robins dad and whathisname di Bersetti), so maybe not. And I don't think EBD was trying to make a deeper evolutionary statement! EBD came from a small family herself. What about EJO? Lucy Maud Montgomery was a singleton, wasn't she? Maybe they all felt the odd ones out at a time when families tended to be large due to lack of contraception etc? And, of course, they wouldn't have experienced any of the privations of such big families first hand either, so might have had a rosier view of them. Edited to change LMA to LMM

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Antonia Forest was another only child fascinated by writing about a large family in her Marlow series precisely because she didn't have one herself growing up. Though, in her books, the eight Marlow offspring are seen as an unusually big family, and there are lots of remarks on their numerousness by other characters, including a childless school secretary who is very offended at a Marlow making a joke about how they make up for people who don't have children... Plus at one point, when a friend's mother gets pregnant unexpectedly in a second marriage, Nicola (the joint-youngest Marlow aged, I don't know, fifteen or so?) is horrified and deeply embarrassed at the mere possibility of her own mother reproducing... Which I suppose is normal for teenagers embarrassed at their parents' sexuality, but the Maynard triplets never betray anything other than utter pride in their parents' reproductive feats, and don't appear to ever suggest their mother should shut up for five minutes about planning quads! (Also, it occurs to me that the devout Catholic family in Antonia Forest's books, traditionalists who reject the reforms of Vatican II, have only one child!) But I suppose as EBD's idea of a 'normal' sized family was pretty large by the standards of the post-war UK population as a whole, when she wanted to show a really big family, like Joey's, she had to pull the stops out and produce triplets and two sets of twins and eleven children over all, not to mention wards! I do think EBD saw childlessness as a tragedy, and definitely thinks only children are neurotic or spoiled, but she also thinks voluntary childlessness is a sure sign of selfishness - there's a bit in one of the Swiss books where someone mentions Joyce Linton having children, and Joey or one of the mistresses saying that they were surprised that such a selfish, silly woman had encumbered herself with even one child! Which I suppose means that the more children you have, the more splendidly selfless and all-round good you are - so Joey is the anti-Joyce...

Author:	claire [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
That could be explained by Nicola knowing how babies are made and Len not - the eww factor is mainly the idea of your parents having sex

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Themes: Fecundity http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5850

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
claire wrote: That could be explained by Nicola knowing how babies are made and Len not - the eww factor is mainly the idea of your parents having sex Reg... what are you doing? ...Sorry, couldn't resist. crawls back to gutter

Author:	JB [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
My maternal grandmother was one of eight children, including two sets of twins (the younger twins died as babies). My paternal grandmother was one of five, with one set of twins. I have no plans to experiement as to whether or not there are any hereditary aspects to this. EJO is very competitive about large families. I re-read Fiddler, Guardians and Rachel this week, and in one of them Jen talks about the winter's "baby race". I don't understand why there's such competition and why Joey feels she needs to have the largest family. This, and the lack of understanding, she can show towards her children are the things I dislike about the adult Joey. I agree with Chair's explanation about Nicola's embarassment and Len's lack thereof.

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
claire wrote: That could be explained by Nicola knowing how babies are made and Len not - the eww factor is mainly the idea of your parents having sex Well, there's a point. If we assume the triplets are menstruating by fifteen or so, they'll have had some kind of Talk About Sanitary Towels And What Happens Every Month with Joey, presumably? (Or with Matey? The mind boggles!) Would that have stopped short of any kind of even fairly oblique instruction about the responsibilities of the marital bed in the 1950s, or would there have been some form of Talk before they left school? Or would it have been left to Joan Baker to enlighten them? Please God tell me Len didn't agree to get married still thinking that you pray for a baby after you get married, and God sends it in the doctor's black bag? Does Len really not know that her parents have what someone called on the Dick and Mollie thread A Passionate Marriage?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Quote: Please God tell me Len didn't agree to get married still thinking that you pray for a baby after you get married, and God sends it in the doctor's black bag? I doubt it - I should imagine that by the second twins, Joey's screams could be heard across the Platz Surely the fact that Joey has to rest for so long after her babies are born would indicate physical excursion, particularly by the time that they're teenagers? I can't get rid of the image of ten or eleven year old trips finding diagrams in one of Dr Jack's medical books and finding it all absolutely hilarious.

Author:	Cel [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Sunglass wrote: Please God tell me Len didn't agree to get married still thinking that you pray for a baby after you get married, and God sends it in the doctor's black bag? Does Len really not know that her parents have what someone called on the Dick and Mollie thread A Passionate Marriage? I think, unfortunately, that an awful lot of people entering marriage at this time, or certainly a few years earlier, were completely ignorant of the facts... As for 'long' families, it's only Joey's which would strike me as big for the time, and even that size of a family wouldn't have been particularly uncommon, certainly here in Ireland. Both my parents (born late 1940s) were one of six children, and even when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s there were several families in our neighbourhood who had eleven children, and one which had thirteen!

Author:	Emma A [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I think EBD uses the large family as a reward for her favourite (or generally well-deserving) characters. I'd imagine also that as a childless unmarried woman who would have liked to have both, there was a certain sense of satisfaction in giving all these children and happy marriages to her characters, perhaps as a means of compensation (I remember reading that Dorothy L Sayers would give to Lord Peter those things that she wished she had - when walking home through the rain she'd give him a twelve-cylinder Bentley to drive; when she came home to her dingy flat, she'd imagine his beautiful Aubusson carpet; and so on).

Author:	Selena [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Tor wrote: EBD came from a small family herself. What about EJO? Louisa May Alcott was a singleton, wasn't she? Maybe they all felt the odd ones out at a time when families tended to be large due to lack of contraception etc? And, of course, they wouldn't have experienced any of the privations of such big families first hand either, so might have had a rosier view of them. I think that EBD had an "obsession" with happy families because her own family life was so unhappy. I don't know much, but according to wikipedia, her father walked out on them when she was little and her only brother died. Being deserted by a parent probably would have had a lot of shame attached to it in those days and she may have felt very left out if she was the only one at school from a broken home. She could put in her books what she felt she had missed out on. That could be why the families all get along marvellously, even after prolonged absences (Mollie & Dick away in India, brothers at school in another country). The long families could be because if one kid dies there would still be lots of brothers and sisters left, whereas EBD lost her only sibling and had none left. It could also be why Margot and later, was it Phil who was very sick? (i don't have that book), but EBD could not bring herself to write too many details of their illness or let the characters die because it brought back too many memories of her brother dying. Maybe she couldn't save her brother but she could save her characters' lives? That could be why no-one ever dies from various floods avalanches etc... Or maybe i am reading too much into it?! Psychology is a fascinating subject...

Author:	Tor [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Quote: Please God tell me Len didn't agree to get married still thinking that you pray for a baby after you get married, and God sends it in the doctor's black bag? Does Len really not know that her parents have what someone called on the Dick and Mollie thread A Passionate Marriage? Immediately made me think of the Mitfords, and the story (reproduced in the Pursuit of Love) of Jessica/Jassy enlightening the village children about the facts of life. Following on from my Mitford Letter orgy I am re-reading Love in a Cold Climate, and the youngest Radlett girls obsession with the 'facts of life' and their frustration at their mother/aunts/elder sisters refusal to tell them what happens is hilarious: Quote: Meanwhile, Aunt Sadie was doing what she could to influence Polly, but as she much too shy to speak to her directly on such intimate subjects as sex and marriage she used an oblique method of letting fall an occasional reflection.... 'Always remember, children, that marriage is a ery intimate relationship, it's not just sitting and chatting to a person, there are other things you know,' and after Fanny refuse to tell Jassy and Victoria what IT was like Quote: "It is unfair, nobody ever tells. Sadie doesn't even know, that's quite obvious, and Louisa is an old prig, but we did think we could count on Linda and you. Very well then, we shall go to our marriage beds in ignorance, like Victorian ladies, and in the morning we shall be found stark staring mad with horror nd live sixty more years in an expensive bin, and then perhaps you'll wish you had been more helpful" If we assume that the Mitford/Radlett view-point is rather advanced and even there there is a lack of openness, I reckon the CS girls would have been fairly uninformed. But you never know.... And biology seemed to have actually only been botany, so no hope there!

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Cel wrote: I think, unfortunately, that an awful lot of people entering marriage at this time, or certainly a few years earlier, were completely ignorant of the facts... I appreciate that, but with the sheer prevalence of babies at Freudesheim, Joey and Jack's progressive ethos of not babying their elder children, and the CS ethos of not keeping the realities of life, whether that's death or the evils of Nazism, from the girls? Or do people think sex would have been a reality too far? Cel wrote: As for 'long' families, it's only Joey's which would strike me as big for the time, and even that size of a family wouldn't have been particularly uncommon, certainly here in Ireland. Both my parents (born late 1940s) were one of six children, and even when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s there were several families in our neighbourhood who had eleven children, and one which had thirteen! I'd agree entirely about Ireland - I have huge families of relatives, and my partner's mother is the eldest of thirteen, and there were two or three stillborn children also - but I don't think average family size was anywhere near as big in the UK by the 1950s. This is a parliament website: Quote: In 1900 the ‘total fertility rate’, the rate of child-bearing, measured as if all women experienced it as they went through life, was equivalent to a completed family size of 3.5 children. The rate has fallen throughout the century and by 1997 had fallen to 1.7 children. Elsewhere I'm reading an average of 2.2 children per family in 1952, rising slightly to 2.6 towards the end of the decade. Which makes EBD's families seem pretty big... Laughing at the Mitfords and sex ed - but Jassy and Victoria at least know that Some Mysterious Act does take place in the marriage bed! I always assume they just wanted details! And of course they've also been 'enlightened' by the Lecherous Lecturer's approaches...?

Author:	JayB [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Quote: I'd agree entirely about Ireland - I have huge families of relatives, and my partner's mother is the eldest of thirteen, and there were two or three stillborn children also - but I don't think average family size was anywhere near as big in the UK by the 1950s. Yes, I'm English. I was born in the 1950s, and in my schooldays families of two or three children were the norm, with the occasional singleton. Nearly all the large families I knew of were, nominally at least, Catholic. I can only think of one girl in my year at secondary school who was one of six who wasn't from a Catholic family. Larger families were of course more common in our parents' and grandparents' generations. My sister and I both read CS as children, and my mother was aware of the outline of the story (if she didn't read them herself after we'd gone to bed!) and Joey's family of eleven was considered unrealistic by all of us, although we were willing to suspend disbelief while reading.

Author:	andi [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
This might not be a very authoritative source of information, but in Rosamund Pilcher's book 'Coming Home', the main character, who would be roughly a contemporary of Joey's, has had some degree of sex ed at school (given by the headmistress ), so it's presumably feasible that CS girls got some information, say in biology lessons.

Author:	abbeybufo [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Tor wrote: EBD came from a small family herself. What about EJO? Louisa May Alcott was a singleton, wasn't she? Maybe they all felt the odd ones out at a time when families tended to be large due to lack of contraception etc? And, of course, they wouldn't have experienced any of the privations of such big families first hand either, so might have had a rosier view of them. EJO was one of six - four girls and two boys - and quite a 'long' family in terms of years - she was the eldest, born November 1880, and her youngest brother was born in February 1896, so nearly 16 years younger.

Author:	Cel [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Sunglass wrote: Cel wrote: I think, unfortunately, that an awful lot of people entering marriage at this time, or certainly a few years earlier, were completely ignorant of the facts... I appreciate that, but with the sheer prevalence of babies at Freudesheim, Joey and Jack's progressive ethos of not babying their elder children, and the CS ethos of not keeping the realities of life, whether that's death or the evils of Nazism, from the girls? Or do people think sex would have been a reality too far? I read something recently about this, and got the impression that while young women would tend to have an idea that something physical was involved, the actual detail was often completely shrouded in mystery. Which led to a lot of (genuine) wedding night trauma, and for many women a lifelong revulsion for the whole thing. Also, while Joey and Jack didn't baby the children with regard to issues like serious illness etc, they did try to 'keep them young' about more worldly topics. But I'd like to think that once the engagement was settled, Joey would bite the bullet and talk to Len..

Author:	JB [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I do think "sex would have been a reality too far". I imagine that Joey would broach the subject with Len before she was married, as I expect Madge did with her, but that she wouldn't see the need to do so before that. Joey lives in a very sheltered environment, and she and Jack are not modern in their attitudes to their children. Margot, of course, would soon be able to enlighten her sisters once she was a medical school. Do the girls study biology at the Chalet School or is it just botany?

Author:	Selena [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Cel wrote: I read something recently about this, and got the impression that while young women would tend to have an idea that something physical was involved, the actual detail was often completely shrouded in mystery. Which led to a lot of (genuine) wedding night trauma, and for many women a lifelong revulsion for the whole thing. Also, while Joey and Jack didn't baby the children with regard to issues like serious illness etc, they did try to 'keep them young' about more worldly topics. But I'd like to think that once the engagement was settled, Joey would bite the bullet and talk to Len.. I wonder if Madge had a similar chat to Joey before she married Jack? Somehow, i think not, seeing as she could not even bring herself to tell Joey when she was pregnant. Joey seems pretty clueless about the birds and the bees as a teenager. I seem to remember Madge "dropping a hint" when she was expecting Sybil (how old would Joey have been??), and expecting Joey to guess from that (and the fact that she must have had a large "bump" ). But Joey was completely oblivious. I would imagine Joey would find it hard/impossible to talk to her daughters about periods or babies when she was brought up in an environment where they were never mentioned.

Author:	Nightwing [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I remember reading somewhere that EBD was heavily influenced by Charlotte Yonge, hence the cries of, "Just like a Charlotte Yonge family" from various girls when finding out about Joey's family! So I take it Yonge's characters generally had long families? Did they have multiple twins and triplets too?

Author:	Lesley [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I wonder who told Madge about what was expected in the marriage bed?

Author:	JB [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I think either Frau Mensch or Frau Marani would have taken her aside. It's tempting to imagine Mlle LePattre, though ....

Author:	Selena [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Lesley wrote: I wonder who told Madge about what was expected in the marriage bed? Perhaps Jem just sedated her? So her possible "talk" to Joey would start, "On your wedding night you may hear someone creep into your boudoir, but don't worry, it'll just be Jack, with a syringe..."

Author:	JB [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Selena wrote: Quote: Perhaps Jem just sedated her? So her possible "talk" to Joey would start, "On your wedding night you may hear someone creep into your boudoir, but don't worry, it'll just be Jack, with a syringe..." Somewhere in the archives there is a drabble on that very subject.

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I can't say why but as a child I always loved reading about big families. I came from one myself - seven, but as there were six girls and one boy I didn't regard it as interesting because of the gender imbalance. The Maynard's family size appealed to me because it was gender balanced, as were the other main families in the series. I think it's nice that the triplets are always delighted with each new arrival, and while it does seem a bit unrealistic, it is lovely to read about such a close knit family. I'm the youngest of my family and my eldest sister was nearly 14 when she realised I was on the way. She was furious with my mother and highly embarrassed in front of her friends (my mother was close on 45 and my father was 58 when I was born!). She was also resentful of me for taking away the status of youngest-in-family from her God child, the sister next to me. We never had a close relationship because I always sensed her resentment, actually 'sensed' is an misnomer, she actively showed her resentment of me.

Author:	Cat C [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
ChubbyMonkey wrote: I doubt it - I should imagine that by the second twins, Joey's screams could be heard across the Platz Surely the fact that Joey has to rest for so long after her babies are born would indicate physical excursion, particularly by the time that they're teenagers? I would have though by that stage there would barely have been time to get her across the platz from Freudesheim to the San between her waters breaking and delivery... Lesley wrote: I wonder who told Madge about what was expected in the marriage bed? I'd like to think it was her mother, but that's probably hoping too much. Selena wrote: I wonder if Madge had a similar chat to Joey before she married Jack? Somehow, i think not, seeing as she could not even bring herself to tell Joey when she was pregnant. Joey seems pretty clueless about the birds and the bees as a teenager. I seem to remember Madge "dropping a hint" when she was expecting Sybil (how old would Joey have been??), and expecting Joey to guess from that (and the fact that she must have had a large "bump" ). But Joey was completely oblivious. On that latter point, I think Sybil was early - and it may have been that Madge had a discrete, hidable, bump the last time Joey saw her before the baby actually arrived, but I really can't see why it would have been so wrong for Madge to tell Joey that in [whichever month] she would have a new little neice or nepew.

Author:	Lottie [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Cat C wrote: Lesley wrote: I wonder who told Madge about what was expected in the marriage bed? I'd like to think it was her mother, but that's probably hoping too much. Somehow, I think it unlikely, since she was only twelve when her mother died. Cat C wrote: Selena wrote: I wonder if Madge had a similar chat to Joey before she married Jack? Somehow, i think not, seeing as she could not even bring herself to tell Joey when she was pregnant. Joey seems pretty clueless about the birds and the bees as a teenager. I seem to remember Madge "dropping a hint" when she was expecting Sybil (how old would Joey have been??), and expecting Joey to guess from that (and the fact that she must have had a large "bump" ). But Joey was completely oblivious. On that latter point, I think Sybil was early - and it may have been that Madge had a discrete, hidable, bump the last time Joey saw her before the baby actually arrived, but I really can't see why it would have been so wrong for Madge to tell Joey that in [whichever month] she would have a new little neice or nepew. But then Joey might have asked awkward questions about how Madge knew, etc.! On the subject of how much people knew about what happened with childbirth. My mother, in the 1950s, was apparently somewhat surprised that the baby was going to come out the same way that it went in!

Author:	CBW [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
andi wrote: This might not be a very authoritative source of information, but in Rosamund Pilcher's book 'Coming Home', the main character, who would be roughly a contemporary of Joey's, has had some degree of sex ed at school (given by the headmistress ), so it's presumably feasible that CS girls got some information, say in biology lessons. I now have this wonderful image of Miss Annersley's annual lecture to the seniors with guards posted outside to make sure no-one under age gets in

Author:	Tor [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I always got the impression that 'Biology' was primarily 'Botany'. So I am sure the girls knew all about stamens and styles and wot not (horrendous image from Grease 2 has not popped into my head!) Just realised I made a silly mistake in an earlier post and wrote LM ALcott rather than L M Montgomery - dashing off to edit. As to Madge's knowledge of all things conjugal, well, for some reason there is something about Madge as a character that strikes me she would have made every effort to find out for herself. I can't see her thinking, 'gosh, I've heard something happens when one marries,' and then fretting about it. If she had no-one to tell her (one of the 'Aunts', perhaps), then I cannot seeing her remaining in ignorance even if she had to take herself on a quick trip to the Holloway Road and visit Marie Stopes, and all the potential embarrassment that would entail. I'd don't think she'd shirk the duty with Joey either. The problem there would be the short time between Jo and Jack getting engaged and then having to flee Austria and get married super fast. Before then, I'm not sure Jo would have wanted to listen to the facts of life so to speak before then, given her general revulsion to subjects such as marriage etc. Maybe Jo had had a small talk with the triplets, a bit earlier than might be normal for that period, once she'd been made aware of Reg's interest in Len? It might also explain Con's aversion to marriage etc - possibly she wasn't quite ready for that kind of detail? Tor slips into the weird CS-is-Real parallel dimension, whilst also trying to carry on an external critical debate

Author:	JayB [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
With the School in Tyrol looking after Zita the St Bernard every winter, and all the talk of when her puppies would arrive, I expect Jo was aware of birth as it applied to animals. Whether she knew how Zita came to be pregnant, or that it worked the same way in humans, is another matter. I daresay the triplets knew the 'facts of life' - if Joan Baker hadn't told them, I imagine Margot would have wanted to know before going to medical school. But I'd question whether Len knows about physical attraction, or is physically attracted to Reg, as opposed to just loving him as a close friend.

Author:	jenah [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
I would imagine that Chalet girls found out about the facts of life the same way most of us did. From friends, older siblings, and reading forbidden books. They were probably not as sheltered as we imagine, and these things do get discussed among kids.

Author:	MJKB [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
jenah wrote: I would imagine that Chalet girls found out about the facts of life the same way most of us did. From friends, older siblings, and reading forbidden books. They were probably not as sheltered as we imagine, and these things do get discussed among kids. Not during ooao's reign, I'm sure. I can just imagine her with a 'down with that sort of thing' placard outside the middle's common room.

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes: Fecundity
Let's face it, Matey wouldn't have gone to all that trouble of checking to see if anyone had any "unsuitable" books if she hadn't caught a few people with them in the first place ... .