The CBB :: View topic - Siblings: The Linton Sisters

I assume that they must have lived at Die Rosen between leaving school and leaving Tyrol, because they don't seem to have gone home and I can't imagine CS people thinking it proper for two girls aged 18/19/20 to live on their own. The CS world really must have become home to them for a while.

What gets me is that to EBD, the reliance Joyce has on Gillian as an adult is clearly a bad thing - but Gillian has always "mothered" Joyce, and given that their own mother has died I don't see what's so terrible about turning to your one remaining relative for support. Joyce is one of those characters that EBD is never quite willing to have let go of her faults, which makes her realistic, but a perpetual 'bad' girl in EBD's world.

“Joyce is only a baby, I know. But Gillian is a dear, good girl, and she will look after her sister.

Joyce was the only really carefree member of the party. She knew that her mother was ill; but had no idea how ill, for Mrs Linton had begged that her youth might not be overshadowed by it. Gillian, accustomed to shielding her sister from everything, acquiesced at once

Joey is quite spiteful about Joyce from the start

Jo was silent. Herself a very much younger sister, she had never had to cope with this sort of thing. And all the elder sisters she had ever known left their juniors to look after themselves and expected them to stand on their own feet. To her mind, Gillian seemed to have nursemaided Joyce all along the line.
“I suppose you think I've been horribly selfish about it since we came here?” queried Gillian anxiously. “I know I should have thought more about Joyce - I can't think what made me forget her like this. I suppose it must have been partly Mummy's illness, though that's no excuse, really.”
Jo found her voice. “If you want to know,” she said bluntly, “I think Joyce is a jolly lucky girl to have had you behind her like this. At the same time, it couldn't go on, of course. She's fourteen now, isn't she?”
Gillian nodded, her sapphire-blue eyes fixed eagerly on Jo's face.
“Well, at fourteen, she ought to be standing on her own feet, and I'll think you'll have to let her. Oh, I don't say you oughtn't to keep, say, half an eye on her doings. But you simply can't go on playing sheepdog to her all her life. For one thing, it's not giving her any chance to show you what she's got in her. For another, it's not fair on you.”
“But, Jo, you don't understand! You may think I'm an idiot, but hand of honour, Joyce isn't really fourteen in anything but age. She - she's just a little girl, not much older than your Robin.”
“Not as old in some ways, I should think,” said Jo crisply. “

"As the eldest, you are largely responsible for the little ones. If they see you disobeying, they will follow suit. If they get into trouble for it, part of the blame is yours.”

I agree with Abi that Joyce didn't deserve to be expelled - we see many pupils ragging the mistresses over the years, it's just that Miss Norman can't cope with it.

Wow that is a bad punishment! I can't imagine being reminded of it every time I had to sit down to a meal. That would be horrible.

At the risk of sounding like a sad bitter old maid :oops:

, the comments made by Joey and I think also Janie Lucy later on also ring true for me - they both hope that Gillian will meet a nice man and get married and have children, because then Joyce won't be able to expect her to come running every five minutes, whereas apparently it is fine for Joyce to expect Gillian to down tools and leave her job and her life in general as long as she's single! ... But that's probably just me being a sad bitter old maid, as I said :wink:

They were demoted to the form below their own,

Abi wrote

Quote:

They were demoted to the form below their own,

I have often puzzled how this punishment would work in practice, especially with a large number of girls. Pity the poor teacher whose form is suddenly swelled by half a dozen miscreants!

Matey was probably delighted to have a legitimate reason not to spend her Saturday evenings playing paper and pencil games or watching tableaux. (Imagines Matey sabotaging girls' cubicles to ensure a steady stream of defaulters on Saturday evenings.)

and Biddy O'Ryan, whose reports always went to Miss Wilson as Captain of the Guides, howled like a lost dog.

The link between vanity and disobedience there just always seems a little tenuous to me: it would've made more sense if she'd accidentally burnt Josette with some sort of hairdressing device

I find the idea of girls following another because of beauty rather odd and not very convincing.

I find the idea of girls following another because of beauty rather odd and not very convincing. With Joyce what are the 'pretty manners' that she is famed for? Marie, Beth, Gay, Vi etc are all beauties but are in the top gang or leaders because of their personalities.

Mel wrote:

I find it fairly realistic, for girls of that age. I think when girls are in those self-conscious pubescent years, being one of the 'pretty ones' confers confidence, and that in turn attracts a following. (As someone who was very definitely not in this category, that's how it looked from the outside, anyway). Other, more genuine leadership qualities emerge later, thank goodness, but those years can be a bit superficial.

In Jo Returns, when Polly starts to form a 'great' friendship with Joyce, everyone breaths a sigh of relief, not because Joyce will be a good influence but because Gillian will be a good influence over. That would be so hard to live with knowing that's what everyone thinks of you and your friends.

In fact, the only time we see them laughing about weight, that I can think of anyway, is in the train carriage (in 'New'?) when they tease Hilda Jukes about her weight and she just laughs comfortably; evidently they would never say that sort of thing to someone who wasn't comfortable with them doing it.

It was true that looks made you popular in my schooldays, and I'm sure it's even more the case now, but that's partly because we live in a far more looks-obsessed society, with even young girls encouraged to 'pamper' themselves with expensive beauty products 'because you're worth it', and because the idea that you can improve your appearance by make-up, diets, hair-dye, tooth-whitening etc etc - beauty equals success. And also, to put it politely, because sex enters the equation much earlier, and having pretty friends gets you noticed by boys, and so many girls internalise the male gaze at an alarmingly early age.

I strongly disagree! Women have always been judged on their beauty, and it's only relatively recently that society has started encouraging women to develop qualities like their intelligence as well - at the time that the CS began, many girls' schools were still far more about preparing girls for society and making a good match than about educating them. Today's advertisements are far more effective in praying on women's insecurities, perhaps, and our standards of beauty have changed, but in some ways things have actually improved in this area. For example, today you can be considered attractive even if you wear glasses!

(The difference in recent years is only that we're now all supposed to embrace the 'duty'/opportunity to groom ourselves into acceptability, whatever we naturally look like.

A dear friend of mine is given to saying that any woman can now 'pass' as long as she is thin enough, has a good enough hair cut and colour and a well-applied fake-tan and make-up.

Joyce's prettiness is more obvious but Gillian's more subtle beauty is somehow better ... does that make sense? We're told something similar about Len and Margot in Reunion: Margot's got the "showier" looks but Len is more of a true beauty.!

To be honest, I agree with whoever said that they had difficulty buying the fact that beauty attracts brainless 'followers' at the CS in the time period.

I don't think that's all that recent, is it - think of the song "Keep young and beautiful/it's your duty to be beautiful" which was written in 1933...

[Don't get me started on that 1950(?)s 'classic', that goes something like 'hey little girl, fix your hair and your make-up' or else your husband will run off with his secretary]

Maybe with David it would've been slightly different because he was a boy, and by the time Josette was born Jo was married herself, but she might well have felt resentful of Sybil.

Most other people, while being Madge's friends, were also in her employ - there's no way they could have criticised her children.

‘Like it!’ Madge’s eyes glowed as she looked from Joey of the picture to the pyjamaed figure curled up beside her in bed. ‘It is just what I most wanted, and exactly like you!’

Jo considered it with her head on one side. ‘No one on earth could call me beautiful, could they?’ she said with unexpected wistfulness in her voice.

Doesn't she consider Clare for Len when she has the triplets but can't think of a third C name?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Siblings: The Linton Sisters
There are, of course, many siblings throughout the series, but one of the most notable are Gillian and Joyce Linton. They first appear in 'The Chalet School and the Lintons' (split into 'Rebel' as well in Armada editions), where we get to see something of their home life before they settle in to the Chalet School. When they arrive, there are stormy beginnings. At first, Joyce finds it difficult to settle down, although Gillian doesn't have as many problems. But throughout the series we are shown their relationship, until Gillian marries Mr Young and they are largely written out. There are complex dynamics between the two, including a struggle for power, their reliance on each other and the way that each influences the other's character. All of this can lead to a tense relationship at times. What do you feel about the Linton sisters? Do you think that they are portrayed realistically in the books? Does EBD's writing of them seem natural to you? Also, what do you think of them as characters? Do you like them or not, and why? What do you think of the relationship between them? Discuss these and any other points below! Idea by Sunglass.

Author:	abbeybufo [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
To start with there seems to be the standard older sibling/younger sibling split: - older=responsible, sensible, hard-working, mother's confidante etc as opposed to younger=carefree, careless, lazy, mother's pet Even as late as Three Go, when Gillian meets Peter Young, somebody - is it Jo or Rosalie, can't remember - says that Joyce has been relying on Gillian too much, even though she has improved after her marriage - and we've already seen her improve, through the end of her 'own' book [Lintons/Rebel] and as she moves up the school. But she's still been inclined to look to big sister for support, it seems. One assumes that would stop once Gillian herself is married with children.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
As abbeybufo said, it's the usual responsible older sister and irresponsible younger sister split, although that's more understandable with e.g. Madge and Joey than with two sisters who are only a year apart in age. Gillian's a fairly standard CS character: she's very nice, but she doesn't particularly stand out in any way - apart from being one of the very few CS characters we see go on a proper date, even if Armada did cut it out of the pb! Joyce is much more interesting. She improves a lot but never quite fully "reforms" at school - and it's a shame that, because of the gap between New/United and Exile, we don't see her last years there - and later we see Gillian downing tools and rushing off to Joyce's home whenever Joyce feels she needs help. We're later told that Joyce has grown up a lot because of her daughter's illness, and (although I don't think it says so) maybe also because of her duties as a vicar's wife, but we never "see" her again. Is she the only CS girl who leaves school unreformed but then reforms off screen? It's a very interesting relationship: Gillian worries about and feels responsible for Joyce, as Len does for Margot and (sort of) Mary-Lou for Verity, but Joyce clearly seems to feel that it's Gillian's job to help her out and that's less usual in CS-land. Also, it's interesting that they originally settle in Guernsey after leaving Tyrol, rather than going back to their home town, and that Joyce invites the whole school to her wedding. I assume that they must have lived at Die Rosen between leaving school and leaving Tyrol, because they don't seem to have gone home and I can't imagine CS people thinking it proper for two girls aged 18/19/20 to live on their own. The CS world really must have become home to them for a while.

Author:	Mair Cail [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I can't say I ever particularly like Joyce especially after I read in one of the later books something about Joyce having two children and making a pet of the little boy and wasn't it good that her husband just adored their little girl and it made me see red. It wasn't until I read the fill in novel, Gillian of the Chalet School, that I began to understand Joyce and her decisions, her growth and her growing up. One thing I can never understand is why EBD did not expel Joyce along with Thekla. Ragging a mistress and not getting expelled what kind of message does this give to the other girls in the school.

Author:	Abi [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
But it wasn't only that for which Thekla was expelled - it was the influence she had over the younger girls (Joyce included) and her bullying of Joyce in particular as well. Also the fact that she showed no remorse and made no effort to improve her behaviour, which Joyce did. I think the Lintons are an interesting pair of sisters because we get to see so much more of their relationship than we do for most other sisters in the series. I can understand Joyce's behaviour in a way - she was very much spoilt and when Gill tried to control her she would - I think - have very naturally resented it, feeling that Gill had no real authority over her. Not that that's any excuse, especially when she was an adult, but I think it's very convincing that although she makes genuine - and partially successful - attempts to reform, she never manages it entirely. Very true to life, I think! After all, how many of us are Gillians?

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Siblings: The Linton Sisters http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6855

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
What gets me is that to EBD, the reliance Joyce has on Gillian as an adult is clearly a bad thing - but Gillian has always "mothered" Joyce, and given that their own mother has died I don't see what's so terrible about turning to your one remaining relative for support. Joyce is one of those characters that EBD is never quite willing to have let go of her faults, which makes her realistic, but a perpetual 'bad' girl in EBD's world. I always preferred Joyce to Gillian, though - Gillian is from the first moment good, kind, conscientious, whereas Joyce has to go through a very sharp learning curve before she can become equally 'good', which makes her the far more interesting character. I love her fierce loyalty to Jo after she helps her out, and I'm always happy when she's asked to join the St Claire's band in New House - it shows that despite her bad start, she's made good and the other girls are prepared to accept her. I do like their relationship. Gillian is clearly more mature than Joyce, and more aware of how sick their mother is, and willing to be more responsible because of that. I think Joyce is probably more than a little resentful that her sister has been cast into the 'good girl' role, which may be part of the reason that she rebels so much.

Author:	Lesley [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Alison H wrote: I assume that they must have lived at Die Rosen between leaving school and leaving Tyrol, because they don't seem to have gone home and I can't imagine CS people thinking it proper for two girls aged 18/19/20 to live on their own. The CS world really must have become home to them for a while. It's quite possible that Madge/Jem had been appointed their guardians anyway - people did not 'come of age' until they were 21.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I agree with Abi that Joyce didn't deserve to be expelled - we see many pupils ragging the mistresses over the years, it's just that Miss Norman can't cope with it. Plus Joyce was quite nice underneath, she was just a bit spoilt (and given Joey's reaction to her attitude with regards to the Robin, I'd say that maybe she wasn't the only one!) I do love the relationship between the two; it's so realistic, I think, and you can tell that they really care. Joyce probably is more interesting, but I love seeing Gillian learning to not look after her so much, as well.

Author:	Sarah_G-G [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Nightwing wrote: What gets me is that to EBD, the reliance Joyce has on Gillian as an adult is clearly a bad thing - but Gillian has always "mothered" Joyce, and given that their own mother has died I don't see what's so terrible about turning to your one remaining relative for support. Joyce is one of those characters that EBD is never quite willing to have let go of her faults, which makes her realistic, but a perpetual 'bad' girl in EBD's world. I agree with this. I mean, of course Joyce shouldn't expect Gillian to jump every time she stubs her toe, but surely if something goes wrong, it's fairly natural to turn to your elder sister for advice? And although there is only a year in age between them, Gillian matured earlier than Joyce did so it does feel more like she is two or three years older, which can count for a lot when you're a teenager. I've always liked the books featuring Gillian and Joyce because I think their relationship is very well drawn. The beginning of Lintons is one of my favourite family scenes in the whole series because I think it conveys that cosy sense of family really well and I can just imagine the mother and the two daughters looking through the CS prospectus together (also handily proving that they do actually have one!) while keeping warm in front of the fire. I love seeing their reactions to everything, and I like both of them- Gillian because I feel sorry for her initially and she is a thoroughly nice schoolgirl, Joyce because her character and her struggles are really interesting to read about. Joyce really stands out for me because she doesn't entirely reform and she doesn't do so straight away, so we get to see some of her struggles along the way. I also like the scene where Gillian gets Jo to talk to Joyce, who has got rather beyond her, and Jo is aghast to realise that to 14(?) year old Joyce, she is already quite grown up!

Author:	Tor [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Nightwing wrote: Quote: What gets me is that to EBD, the reliance Joyce has on Gillian as an adult is clearly a bad thing - but Gillian has always "mothered" Joyce, and given that their own mother has died I don't see what's so terrible about turning to your one remaining relative for support. I totally and 100% second this sentiment! Why shouldn't they be close? Why shouldn't Gillian want to be there for her younger sister and only living relative? I would drop everything for my younger sisters, if they needed me. And we know Madge did for Joey multiple times, not to mention the relationship between Joey and the Robin. But this is another interesting aspect of the 'delicacy' discussion, to me. The emphasis being that Joyce is supposed to deliberately lean on, or actively rely on Gillian to help her out - and that is bad in EBDs book. Just as being delicate is allowed as long as you don't admit to t, and try and pretend you are a strong as the next person, similarly you can be emotionally fragile and dependent as long as you don't solicit help. Madge might come running, but Joey never asks her too. In my book, that is far more exhausting - always having to be on the look out for someone because you know they wont admit they are in trouble/need support. I like the Gillian and Joyce relationship - a realistic portrayal of two imperfect people (because Gillian is a bit of a wet rag in places, and not too interesting) who really love each other despite their faults. ETA. Actually, Joyce - in part - reminds me of whats-her-name (Priscilla...? No! Phillipa..?) in Anne of the Island, who is superficially selfish and frivolous, but settles down with a missionary. Except Joyce isn't given any credit for this showing people she isn't as silly as they thought. Even though she is a nasty piece of work at first, and definitely spoilt, she clearly has strong redeeming features. She is fiercely loyaland deeply loves her mother and Gillian, she's just immature and self-centered so needs things spelled out to her. But her heart is in the right place!

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Lintons was my first CS book, so I always have a soft spot for it, and, as someone else said up the thread, the cosy family scenes at the beginning, with all three Lintons looking through that elusive CS prospectus! (Incidentally, I always wonder who the very pretty fair, slim girl, with the 'merry smile' is, whose photo in winter gear Gillian admires - Frieda Mensch? Marie Von Eschenau?) I'm sure I'd read Lintons twenty times, though, without realising that Gillian is only a year older than Joyce, despite the fact that she keeps being characterised as the 'eldest' (rather than elder) and the responsible, mothering one. Rather like Joey and Len, though, this seems to be in part her mother's doing, as she treats Gillian to some extent like another adult while completely infantilising her only slightly younger other daughter: Quote: “Joyce is only a baby, I know. But Gillian is a dear, good girl, and she will look after her sister. Quote: Joyce was the only really carefree member of the party. She knew that her mother was ill; but had no idea how ill, for Mrs Linton had begged that her youth might not be overshadowed by it. Gillian, accustomed to shielding her sister from everything, acquiesced at once But it's not just Mrs Linton - everyone seems to baby her! Even Madge, on their first meeting says she's 'only a baby, really' (while deciding Gillian, on the other hand, 'has any amount of character'.) Even though some of the time Joyce is prepared to exploit her 'baby' status by wheedling for sicknotes etc, I find it very believable that, aged fourteen, she also resents it, and lashes out at Gillian in Paris for not telling her how ill their mother is. And it's not surprising either that she doesn't warm to the Robin, another 'adored baby' - though, as Madge says, Joey is really unfair to resent a tired, rather immature new arrival for not kissing an eleven-year-old who is a complete stranger! I find the Gillian/Joyce relationship interesting and believable, with its combination of familiarity, love and resentment. I do like Gillian, but I somtimes feel Joyce gets a raw deal, long before she gets started on misdeeds at the CS, and even though we're explicitly told Joey has taken a somewhat irrational dislike to Joyce at first sight, EBD seems to go along with it subsequently herself, having Joyce ask Stacie whether she'll ever walk again before even saying hello (which I find a bit unbelievable from a girl who has supposedly 'charming manners') and bounce back from her realisation that her mother is seriously ill so completely that on the first day of term she's claiming that a lot of fuss is being made over nothing. Joey is quite spiteful about Joyce from the start, and if you look at the scene where Mademoiselle asks whether she should put Joyce and Gillian in the same dormitory, it's Joey's dislike of Joyce, more than her desire to give Gillian a break, that seems to dictate her advice to separate them, even though she knows Joyce will fret. Maybe my desire to stick up for Joyce a bit is because EBD seems to expect us to accept Joey's dislike at face value, and her own dislike of Joyce never seems to entirely go away, and can make some of her descriptions of Joyce a bit over the top. I find it hard to believe that any new girl, however popular she was at her old school, really spends her first day or two already raging that there's one girl prettier than her at the CS and that she's not immediately 'queening it' the way she did at the High!

Author:	Laura V [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
In my opinion Gillian and Joyce together are 2 of EBD's best characters. She describes them so realistically and their relationship reminds me of my and brother and I when we were younger. However, I don't take so well to Gillian as a teacher and minus Joyce. It's part of Gillian's caring nature to look after her sister but once she leaves Gillian becomes a little bit boring!

Author:	trig [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I'm another Lintons fan, partly because the Austrian sisters (Gisela and Maria, Bernhilda and Frieda, Wanda and Marie) didn't seem to click as sisters to me at all. (There's one point in Jo of where Joey sees Frieda looking worshipingly at Gottfried and thinking (my interpretation) it a bit much - all the early Austrian siblings are a bit like that) Joyce is the more interesting character, and gets brownie points for me for not kissing Robin. Both characters do suffer though from not having their final year in the spotlight. OT - It's long been a disappointment to me that we don't see Margia as head girl or prefect as she's such a main character in the early books. Where Joyce goes I don't know because wouldn't she be in the sixth in Exile? The whole older/ younger sister thing rings completely true for me - I'm only 12 months younger than my eldest sister and she was always treated as the responsible one, and I was never expected to be anything much . I think perhaps EBD overloaded herself with potential major characters in the Tyrol years and so couldn't feasibly follow all of them which is a shame as even the minor characters then were well written and more rounded than in the Swiss books.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Sunglass wrote: Joey is quite spiteful about Joyce from the start I agree with that, and she also seems to have a particular grudge about Joyce's beauty, and keeps comparing it to Robin's and to the Von Eschenaus, and insisting that Gillian is really more beautiful, because her face has character! But I think Joey's later intervention to try to make Joyce buck up is older schoolgirl Joey at her very nicest - and maybe her most tactful and sensitive episode of butting in in the entire series. She only does it when asked by Gillian, she chooses a good moment, she doesn't boss or patronise, she comes down to Joyce's level and says she wasn't a model Middle herself. In fact, she takes a much more nuanced approach to Joyce's misdeeds than the staff, who seem to lump in the harmless fun of the midnight feast with the bullying of Miss Norman, when they are such different things. I do think they are rather hard on Joyce, who is threatened with expulsion in her first few weeks for general idleness, one midnight feast which no one would have known about if the miscreants had stronger stomachs, and acting up in Miss Norman's class - lots of CS firebrands have got away with worse! What's interesting too is how the Gillian Joyce relationship throws a light on Joey's idea of older-sibling responsibility: Quote: Jo was silent. Herself a very much younger sister, she had never had to cope with this sort of thing. And all the elder sisters she had ever known left their juniors to look after themselves and expected them to stand on their own feet. To her mind, Gillian seemed to have nursemaided Joyce all along the line. “I suppose you think I've been horribly selfish about it since we came here?” queried Gillian anxiously. “I know I should have thought more about Joyce - I can't think what made me forget her like this. I suppose it must have been partly Mummy's illness, though that's no excuse, really.” Jo found her voice. “If you want to know,” she said bluntly, “I think Joyce is a jolly lucky girl to have had you behind her like this. At the same time, it couldn't go on, of course. She's fourteen now, isn't she?” Gillian nodded, her sapphire-blue eyes fixed eagerly on Jo's face. “Well, at fourteen, she ought to be standing on her own feet, and I'll think you'll have to let her. Oh, I don't say you oughtn't to keep, say, half an eye on her doings. But you simply can't go on playing sheepdog to her all her life. For one thing, it's not giving her any chance to show you what she's got in her. For another, it's not fair on you.” “But, Jo, you don't understand! You may think I'm an idiot, but hand of honour, Joyce isn't really fourteen in anything but age. She - she's just a little girl, not much older than your Robin.” “Not as old in some ways, I should think,” said Jo crisply. “ This shows Joey as very much a younger sibling, who's had Dick and Madge continually worried about her all her life, but never had anyone younger over whom she's had older-sister responsibility, apart from obedient Robin. But if we see Joey's position (rather than Gillian's) as the correct one, as it usually is for EBD, then it's an interesting contrast to the views expressed by Jack in A Future - Quote: "As the eldest, you are largely responsible for the little ones. If they see you disobeying, they will follow suit. If they get into trouble for it, part of the blame is yours.” - and to Len's philosophy of sibling responsibility...? But in the case of the Linton's we're shown that Gillian is right to step back and let Joyce cope alone, and she becomes less careworn and more girlish after she does, which I quite like...

Author:	Kathy_S [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I think EBD's cause-and-effect reasoning on early Sybil is heavily influenced by moral tracts on Pride, in the seven-deadly-sins sense. Thus, things like too many compliments about appearance feed into the self-importance that we see in the "only cousins" comments. Ultimately, Prideful Person feels herself above rules, certainly rules that suggest she is too young to handle kettles.... Usually it's not quite as heavy-handed, but EBD consistently portrays overcoming the "only pebble on the beach" attitude as key to instilling the CS values of helpfulness, responsibility, and general thinking-about-others.

Author:	Clare [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
ChubbyMonkey wrote: I agree with Abi that Joyce didn't deserve to be expelled - we see many pupils ragging the mistresses over the years, it's just that Miss Norman can't cope with it. There's ragging a mistress and then there's what Joyce organised. I've been on the end of something similar when I was training (I actually heard the kids lined up outside my room "plotting" what they were going to do to me that day). I like the relationship that's portrayed between the two sisters. I think it's understandable that Joyce does lash out at Gillian for not telling her how ill their mother is; and I can understand Gillian's concerns about her sister. I think Gill would have made a very good mentor for Len if she had gone to the Platz with her husband.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I'm not for an instant suggesting that they didn't deserve to be punished, Clare! It was rather a mean trick. But for Joyce's first term, expulsion does seem a little harsh, especially as the CS is supposed to be more forgiving than most other schools. I love the idea of Gillian mentoring Len. She's such an understanding but responsible character, which I think is why she needs Joyce; Joyce being "bad" stops her being what EBD calls a 'plaster saint'. ((I'm sorry if I upset you ))

Author:	Clare [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
You didn't upset me - honestly! It's just the fact it's so pre-meditated and Joyce seemed to get great pleasure out of organising the stunts... What was her punishment for it? I can't remember off the top of my head although I do think she is hauled before Mddle LePattre.

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Clare - I can't remember her punishment either, although I remember Jo describes it as being "swingeing". However that is the point where she's told that if she pulls any more stunts she'll be expelled, which I guess you could argue is part of her punishment! At any rate, I think it's that threat couples with Joey's appeal which sets her on the right path; merely punishing her, I think, might not have been able to do that.

Author:	Abi [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
They were demoted to the form below their own, sent to bed with the juniors, ate at the punishment table (all for the rest of term, I think). They were also in silence for the rest of the week and got a bad conduct mark on their report at the end of term (which is made to sound fairly serious). Joyce was also Closeted With The Headmistress (Mademoiselle) for nearly an hour and vanished for the rest of the day, the next morning "her eyes were so red and swollen with crying, that it was difficult to recognise pretty Joyce Linton at all." Which is the bit, we find out afterwards, where Mademoiselle tells her she won't be allowed back if there's any more trouble and after which Gillian asks for Joey's help. It was a hideous thing to do and of course she was the ringleader, but I guess partly the fact that she was new and partly the fact that she was obviously very remorseful and tried to improve saved her from expulsion.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Wow that is a bad punishment! I can't imagine being reminded of it every time I had to sit down to a meal. That would be horrible.

Author:	2nd Gen Fan [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I think that EBD for some reqson had these two in her mind as good sister, bad sister, and therefore even after Joyce reforms she still has this in her mind (Armiford books). The relationship between the two sisters is one of the most natural in the series though, to my mind.

Author:	MaryR [ Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Wow that is a bad punishment! I can't imagine being reminded of it every time I had to sit down to a meal. That would be horrible. But so is what Joyce did! As a teacher myself, I can't begin to imagine the humiliation felt by Ivy Norman. I always cringe when I read it. It must have knocked her confidence for years and made her feel an utter failure. After all, she did admit that she couldn't handle the older ones, but she needed the extra money for her younger siblings, I think.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I always want to cringe too. I don't think Joyce and the others really thought of the effect their behaviour'd have on Miss Norman - unfortunately, playing up a teacher who is known to have problems controlling a class is a very realistic storyline, but I think Joyce was thoughtless rather than nasty - but, as Mary said, it must have really rocked Ivy's confidence. It was an awkward situation for Mlle to have to handle, as well. At the risk of sounding like a sad bitter old maid , the comments made by Joey and I think also Janie Lucy later on also ring true for me - they both hope that Gillian will meet a nice man and get married and have children, because then Joyce won't be able to expect her to come running every five minutes, whereas apparently it is fine for Joyce to expect Gillian to down tools and leave her job and her life in general as long as she's single! I know that from a practical viewpoint it would be harder for Gillian to leave a home and young children than to take time off work, but even so it annoys me! But that's probably just me being a sad bitter old maid, as I said .

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Alison H wrote: At the risk of sounding like a sad bitter old maid , the comments made by Joey and I think also Janie Lucy later on also ring true for me - they both hope that Gillian will meet a nice man and get married and have children, because then Joyce won't be able to expect her to come running every five minutes, whereas apparently it is fine for Joyce to expect Gillian to down tools and leave her job and her life in general as long as she's single! ... But that's probably just me being a sad bitter old maid, as I said . Not at all, Alison H (I say that as someone who is possibly technically an old maid, in the sense of being a longterm-partnered marriage refusenik...?) - I do think EBD has a weird sense, in the case of the Lintons and elsewhere (Mary-Lou and Verity, after Doris Trelawney's death, for one) that marriage sort of 'takes care of you' by removing you from other responsibilities or ties, such as sibling or step-sibling ones, whether you are the responsible one or the clingy one. Which is funny, because for two of her main characters, Joey and Madge, marriage doesn't make any difference to their 'other' non-marital responsibilities and relationships, though I suppose the difference there is that those relationships are mostly with minors. But you do frequently get Joey, despite her huge family, leaving home to help out someone else, like the time she rushes off to Carn Beg to help Mary-Lou close it up, which involves taking the triplets out of school and disrupting whatever round-the-clock sock-darning, domestic angel activities EBD thinks are the mainspring of marriage! I do agree that the 'single people's careers are OK to disrupt whereas marriage is sacred' thing is maddening. But then EBD never seems to quite get over her dislike of Joyce Linton, does she? There are those rather nasty remarks years later about how surprised people are that someone so selfish bothered having children at all.

Author:	trig [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Abi wrote Quote: They were demoted to the form below their own, I have often puzzled how this punishment would work in practice, especially with a large number of girls. Pity the poor teacher whose form is suddenly swelled by half a dozen miscreants!

Author:	Abi [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
trig wrote: Abi wrote Quote: They were demoted to the form below their own, I have often puzzled how this punishment would work in practice, especially with a large number of girls. Pity the poor teacher whose form is suddenly swelled by half a dozen miscreants! In this case, I think there were girls from different forms in the class as they were having extra language coaching so i guess it wouldn't have been quite so disruptive. But in other cases it must have taken some organisation.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Those punishments often ended up punishing other people too - I always feel sorry for Matey, who ended up missing every bit of entertainment that was going to sit in and supervise naughty girls sewing sheets from side to middle! It sounds like one of those situations where you offer to do something once in the hope of impressing your boss with your eagerness to volunteer but then end up lumbered with the unpleasant task in question for ever more .

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Although I've always had the sneaking suspicion that Matey would just have set them to it and popped in from time to time between, say, tidying her medicine cupboard (no euphemism intended) and just trust her fearsome reputation to keep them in order for the most part.

Author:	JayB [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Matey was probably delighted to have a legitimate reason not to spend her Saturday evenings playing paper and pencil games or watching tableaux. (Imagines Matey sabotaging girls' cubicles to ensure a steady stream of defaulters on Saturday evenings.)

Author:	Abi [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
Hmm, yes, and I suppose that with all that great training they were brilliant at sewing so she got all that extra help for free .

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
JayB wrote: Matey was probably delighted to have a legitimate reason not to spend her Saturday evenings playing paper and pencil games or watching tableaux. (Imagines Matey sabotaging girls' cubicles to ensure a steady stream of defaulters on Saturday evenings.) I like this idea of Matey as a paper games refusenik - explains neatly why on earth someone we're told is always overstretched with her normal jobs would be continually wandering around doing cubicle inspections which will only give her more work when she discovers a mess. On the ragging Miss Norman punishment issue, when everyone gets a bad report at the end of term, we're told that Quote: and Biddy O'Ryan, whose reports always went to Miss Wilson as Captain of the Guides, howled like a lost dog. That seems particularly misery-inducing for poor Biddy, that her (bad) school report is written up by the staff of the school that adopted her (and has now taken her in as a normal CS girl, after time at the village school) - presumably including Miss Wilson herself as science mistress - and then handed across the staffroom to Miss Wilson with her other, Guider, hat on and tutted over, presumably in terms of Biddy's ingratitude etc etc. I mean, the CS is chock-full of orphans, and Joey's mother-figure was also her headmistress for a few years, but this seems a particularly grim situation, where the same person is mistress, Guider and adoptive guardian. To go slightly back on track to the Lintons, given the way Biddy is later characterised as strong, honourable and full of character, it seems like EBD at this point wasn't thinking in those terms, or as though Biddy would become as central as she did, and vying with Gillian Linton as one of the most beloved mistresses. Biddy in Lintons is very much a heedless, second-string also-ran, who is prepared to go along with bullying a weaker mistress, and is presumably charmed by silly, vain Joyce Linton. Very different to her later character.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I'd forgotten how much stress there is on how Joyce's extreme prettiness (she's seen as second only to Marie von Eschenau in looks) being the thing that, along with her 'pretty manners', made her the 'queen' of her old school, and gives her influence over some of the more empty-headed CS girls. I tend to think of the 'problem beauty' thing as being from much later on in the series, with Sybil, but it seems to be already fully operational here with Joyce. Although it seems to operate a bit differently - Sybil's beauty makes her vain, we're told, and gives her an inflated sense of her own importance, but it doesn't seem to give her much influence at school. But Joyce's looks keep being linked to her popularity, even though Joey at least finds Gillian as pretty, and we never get any hint that beauty is a problem for noted school beauties like the von Eschenaus, or even Robin...? There doesn't seem to be any cult of Marie, for instance, despite her loveliness and sportiness...?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
But I think that that's as much to do with personality as much as anything. If anyone had tried to start a Cult of Marie, she would have corrected them fairly quickly; they don't 'abuse' their prettiness by using it for ill, in the way that Joyce or Sybil do, to justify their 'bad' actions. After all, if Joyce wasn't pretty she could still lead the girls by her pretty manners, especially if she had a natural leadership quality (which EBD seems to believe in a lot), but she - or, rather, EBD for her - chooses to blame it on her looks, just as they blame Sybil's behaviour on her looks.

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: The Linton Sisters
I don't really get the whole thing with Sybil's looks. I think that EBD was harking back to an earlier form of moralistic, semi-religious type of writing in which committing the sin of vanity ends up with the sinner being punished - Anne Shirley tries to dye her hair and it ends up going green, and Meg March gets tarted up for a dance only to hear a group of other girls bitching about her - in the same way that committing other "sins" does (e.g. Katy Carr's disobedience resulting in serious physical injury), but it just doesn't quite work for me with Sybil. The idea seems to be that she thinks she's very important because people praise her looks (not that we ever see anyone doing this), and as a result of this she disobeys instructions not to go near the kettle, drops the kettle and scalds Josette (when Josette stands on her toe) and that's all because people've praised her looks. The link between vanity and disobedience there just always seems a little tenuous to me: it would've made more sense if she'd accidentally burnt Josette with some sort of hairdressing device. Joyce seems to be the only case of someone whose looks apparently make her a magnet for other people - except Naomi Elton, and we're told that in her case people are attracted by her looks but then put off by her personality (no wonder she wasn't very impressed with the other girls if they were only interested in her looks!). The heroines, in true GO style, usually have "character" rather than beauty (except Len, and she hasn't really got much character), and the prettiest girls play second fiddle - Wanda to Gisela, Marie to Jo, Vi to Mary-Lou, Wanda II to Jack.