The CBB :: View topic - Siblings: Madge & Joey

I think it's fair to say that lots of the oddities of adult Joey's relationship with the CS are initially set up by her being Madge's sister as well as a pupil - the fact that the school is simply so central to her because it's her home in a very real way and because it was set up on her behalf, really; the fact that she's got an unusually close relationship to the authorities and isn't on the same level as other girls/old girls; the fact that she alone is made privy to personal information about other girls; the fact that she takes everything to do with the CS terribly personally, because it's Madge's creation etc.

It’s interesting that Joey shows no jealousy of the various wards, particularly Juliet. I think it would have been understandable for her to have resented not having Madge to herself in holiday time.

It was very kind of the Maranis (or was it the Mensches?) to ask Juliet to stay with them so that Madge and Joey could have some time to themselves.

JB wrote:

But I think Joey does. In Jo of Joey says to Madge that she's glad she and her are going to the Menschs alone and that Grizel and Juliet aren't coming as she misses having Madge to herself. She doesn't mind sharing her with the Robin as she loves her.

Fiona Mc wrote:

I don't think you can regard this as jealousy. It is surely just a natural desire to have family time together. Robin has been absorbed into the family unit and presents no disturbance to the sibling bond. Joey's love for Juliet never goes as deeply as her love for the Robin, and she enjoys only a fairly close friendship with Grizel. As a child Joey is portrayed as happy go lucky, gregarious and affectionate. She opens her heart to her adopted little sister, but she does deserve the opportunity to replicate the intimacy she once shared with Madge.

The point is, I think there is a fine line you walk with siblings children and Joey does tend to cross it quite often with Sybil and what I really think is interesting is Joey can't bear to think Madge may make mistakes and blames the child in question instead. I could understand that if Sybil was like that as a teenager and we see Madge pull her up for the things she does wrong consistently and Sybil chose to continue like that, but Sybil is still a kid and Madge does not pull her up consistently.

Thinking about it now, it does surprise that they coped with the Headmistress/pupil relationship as well as they did. The moments in Madge's room early in the morning, when she is always teasing Joey about her cold feet or how skinny she is, are some of my favourites in the earlier books.

I'm not saying she doesn't deserve time allow with her sister. I just think it's interesting Madge allows her that, whereas Joey never allows her children that time a la Melanie Lucas.

I think Madge and Joey never really get out of their roles of older/younger sister/half parent/child roles and become friends on equal footing

I'm not saying she doesn't deserve time allow with her sister. I just think it's interesting Madge allows her that, whereas Joey never allows her children that time a la Melanie Lucas.

Which makes me think (sorry, wildly OT) - are there any EBD papers, manuscripts etc surviving, does anyone know? Her rough drafts/second thoughts etc would be terribly interesting. I always assume (in part due to the number of EBDisms and in part due to the sheer amount of words she produced some years, while also teaching) that she wrote fast and edited very little...

...the chance discovery of some sketchy notes among Elinor's papers finally pointed the way. For that scribbled page indicated that, at some time, Elinor may herself have considered writing a retrospective book...

I think that there must be some, as my copy of 'Visitors' says in the foreword that:

Quote:

But to quote Derrida - as Chubbymonkey has been quoting Saussure elsewhere on the CBB!

- 'there is nothing outside the text'. The CS isn't a series of real-life experiences, some (but not all) of which EBD kindly wrote down for us. There's only the fiction. If she didn't write about something, then by definition it never happened.

I don't have them myself, but from what I've heard about the Chalet Club Newsletters wherein EBD answered questions from readers, it would suggest that even if not written down, EBD herself had in her head a whole world of what was happening to the characters which she hadn't actually published - so she could say that so-and-so had done this or that in response to a fan's enquiry...

one of the things that amuses me is that Joey is accused of often going into the school and disrupting lessons. To me, the fact that it is such a big deal when she does would suggest that she seldom does it; and we often only 'see' Jo in the staffroom once a book, yet some people see her as constantly popping over to the school, whereas I'd assume she actually had to spend a chunk of her time at the San, as the head doctor's wife.

Mrs Russell hastily spoke up in a noble endeavour to smooth things over. ‘You must forgive my sister. Colonel. She isn’t very many years from her own schooldays, even yet; and—and——’ She faltered and ceased, having encountered a look so appalling from Jo that she was momentarily thrown off her balance.
‘What on earth did you want to blether like that for?’ demanded the latter young lady later on.
‘Because he was mad enough without you making things worse!’ retorted Madge Russell severely. ‘Really, Jo, considering you’re a married woman and the mother of a family, I must say you haven’t much sense!’
‘I meant to madden him,’ was Jo’s unchristian remark. ‘He had a nerve, I must say, to go questioning the girls like that, let alone the Staff! What does he take us for? I don’t believe he’s an Englishman at all! He’s a wretched Nazi dressed up in our uniform, going round to make people discontented with the Government. ‘I’ve heard they did that sort of thing in the last war.’
‘If you go broadcasting scandalous statements of that kind you’ll find yourself one of the chief figures in a libel action,’ returned Madge. ‘For Heaven’s sake hold your tongue and try to develop a little common sense, Josephine!’

Fiona Mc wrote:

I'm not saying she doesn't deserve time allow with her sister. I just think it's interesting Madge allows her that, whereas Joey never allows her children that time a la Melanie Lucas.

But presumably there are lots of holidays (and Christmas-times and so on) we don't see where it's just the Maynards at Die Blumen or wherever - I don't think it's necessarly fair to infer from this one that Joey 'never' has time alone with her children. But for the purposes of moving the story along, it's necessary to introduce new characters, and I suppose EBD felt that with the Maynards as the central family in the books, that was the obvious place to link them in. I would see the family 'extras' very much as plot fodder - like the ever-changing foster family in Home and Away

I really like that - it's kind of transitional. Joey is still a bit of a dingbat, and Madge can't (understandably enough in this case) quite see Joey as a grown-up.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:10 am ]
Post subject:	Siblings: Madge & Joey
Madge and Joey are the first two siblings in the series, and arguably the most important at the beginning of the series. When the Chalet School opens, the focus is primarily on Madge and Joey, and their reactions to all the things that happen to them. As readers, we are privileged to see many intimate scenes between them, and throughout the early books there is a strong sense of camaraderie as well as a strong bond between Joey and Madge. Because she has had to take care of Joey from such a young age, Madge has been said to mother her as much as being a sister. Once Madge is married, she wishes Joey's home to be with them at Die Rosen, however there still seems to be a feeling that Joey's home is very much the school. However, we still see them together many times – for example when they are pelted by the Mystic M at lunch in 'New' (?) It is only once the school leaves the Tirol that the reader starts to see less of them together; Madge goes to Canada, and when Joey follows the reader is not invited to join them. Then the school moves to Switzerland, and Joey with it, leaving Madge in England. The third of their party is Dick, who, although never a major character in the series, the reader does get to see with his sisters. Other characters also included in the family are Juliet, Madge's ward, and, to a greater extent, the Robin, who grows up seeing Joey as an older sister of her own. But the main bond is almost always between Madge and Joey. How do you feel their relationship is written about? Would you have liked a sister like Madge, or like Joey? Do you like that we get to see them together, or should the focus have been more on the school? As the series goes on, do you think that we can still see the close bond between them, or did EBD allow them to grow apart as they married and had longer families? How does their relationship affect their interaction with other characters? Do they still feel like a family once they are married to Jem and Jack respectively? Would you say that they are sisterly, or does Madge fill more of a motherly relationship with Joey? Please discuss these and any other ideas you have on Madge and Joey's relationship below. Idea courtesy of Sunglass

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I always find those scenes in the early Tyrol days when Joey and Madge have to sort of sneak time together to be sisters, rather than Head and schoolgirl, very touching - like when Joey comes into Madge's bed early in the morning, or when they go for an early-morning walk together the day after the Carricks abandon Juliet. The fact that both times (from what I recall) Madge has to remind Joey not to forget to call her 'Madame' in public underlines quite what a delicate balancing act their relationship is when Madge is still Head of the CS, especially given the CS is their only home, and their only private 'family' space seems to be Madge's bedroom at odd hours! Yet EBD never presents their relationship as at all under strain, although you could imagine another writer making a lot of plot out of the difficulty for Joey of being so prominently the Head's sister in a small, new school, where she could easily have been regarded as something of a snitch. Although, as I said on the Juliet thread recently, I do think there are times when the sisterly relationship means Joey either over-reacts to perceived misbehaviour as a slight on Madge (Grizel and the film), or over-shares the details of someone else's bad behaviour with her (Grizel and Frau Berlin), or is privy to someone else's personal information because of her relationship with Madge (Juliet's abandonment). I think another writer might have made more of this, and depicted a certain amount of distrust between Joey and her schoolmates, but EBD (interestingly enough) gets round it by making the two major early firebrands of the CS, Juliet and Grizel, each also have a quasi-familial relationship with Madge, too, rather than her being straightforwardly their Headmistress. I think it's fair to say that lots of the oddities of adult Joey's relationship with the CS are initially set up by her being Madge's sister as well as a pupil - the fact that the school is simply so central to her because it's her home in a very real way and because it was set up on her behalf, really; the fact that she's got an unusually close relationship to the authorities and isn't on the same level as other girls/old girls; the fact that she alone is made privy to personal information about other girls; the fact that she takes everything to do with the CS terribly personally, because it's Madge's creation etc. I think you could even argue that lots of Joey's quirks as an adult in general are down to her relationship with Madge, in fact - things like the expectation of being consulted on all matters, which she's used to from a very young age with Dick and Madge, being a prominent figure, generally, and having someone looking after her health really closely 24/7...

Author:	JB [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I enjoy the scenes with Madge and Joey; they add to the family feel of the early books. The CS, at this point, isn’t like any other school and that adds to the charm. Joey sometimes has difficulties reconciling being a naughty middle with being the Head’s sister and I think this is well drawn too. It’s interesting that Joey shows no jealousy of the various wards, particularly Juliet. I think it would have been understandable for her to have resented not having Madge to herself in holiday time. I would say that the bond between Joey and Robin becomes as strong as that between Madge and Joey. Schoolgirl Joey is shown as being devoted to the Robin and, by the time Joey is married, we see their relationship develop with Robin taking a more sensible and supportive role towards Joey. At the end of Highland Twins, Daisy and Primula go to stay with Madge for Christmas to give the Maynards Christmas on their own, but Robin remains at Plas Gwyn, an integral part of their family. I think that Madge does fill a more motherly than a sisterly role with Joey, which is inevitable given their situation and Joey’s health problems which have caused Madge so much worry. We see very little of their relationship once the school comes to England – we see very little of Madge, come to that. I’d love to know what Madge thought of Joey’s continued closeness to the school and whether she thought this was entirely a good thing.

Author:	2nd Gen Fan [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I love the early relationship between Joey and Madge; I think it is far more realistic that with Joey being her sister, Madge consults her over decisions in a way she wouldn't allow her own children. (Thinking especially of taking Sybil and Josette to Australia here). Likewise, the habit of discussing things with her sister (albeit one who is twelve years younger) leads her to divulge more information about other pupils than she would otherwise do. Quote: I think it's fair to say that lots of the oddities of adult Joey's relationship with the CS are initially set up by her being Madge's sister as well as a pupil - the fact that the school is simply so central to her because it's her home in a very real way and because it was set up on her behalf, really; the fact that she's got an unusually close relationship to the authorities and isn't on the same level as other girls/old girls; the fact that she alone is made privy to personal information about other girls; the fact that she takes everything to do with the CS terribly personally, because it's Madge's creation etc. This is an excellent point; one I haven't thought of before, but it makes complete sense and makes Joey a more coherent character. And whilst Madge, who took the informed decision to start the school as an adult, was able to move away from it, Joey was not able to do so. Was Joey's extreme involvement with the school also due in part to it replacing the hole left in her life when she moved away from Madge?

Author:	ammonite [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
JB wrote: It’s interesting that Joey shows no jealousy of the various wards, particularly Juliet. I think it would have been understandable for her to have resented not having Madge to herself in holiday time. Don't they try to make time for each other in the holidays - I seem to remember at the end of a School at the Chalet that they are on holiday together without the other two. I do think that Joey and Robin's relationship is equally close but that Joey takes the role that Madge does in the relationship between them and tells Robin about stuff happening at the school etc. I agree that Joey's focus on the school is probably partly to do with the fact she regards it as home sub-conciously.

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Siblings: Madge & Joey http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7602

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
It was very kind of the Maranis (or was it the Mensches?) to ask Juliet to stay with them so that Madge and Joey could have some time to themselves. I think EBD portrays the elder sister/younger sister relationship very well: Madge is in loco parentis but she isn't Joey's parent, and on top of that she's also Joey's headmistress, and she usually manages to balance things well, even though it's not always easy - e.g. telling Joey who Elisaveta really is. They obviously care about each other a great deal - we see Madge's concern when Joey is ill, even as an adult, and the scene in which Joey returns to school very tearful after visiting Madge and newborn baby David is very touching. It must have been very hard for them to go from just having each other to being part of an organisation which grew very quickly, and taken a lot of adapting to. I'm very sorry that Madge was sidelined in later years, and didn't get the chance to see much of Joey's children. I think she could've been a big help to Len, as she was also burdened with a lot of responsibility at a young age. & I wonder how different Joey would've been in the Swiss years had Madge also moved to the Oberland and been living nearby.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Alison H wrote: It was very kind of the Maranis (or was it the Mensches?) to ask Juliet to stay with them so that Madge and Joey could have some time to themselves. But it's the exception, rather than the norm, isn't it? There are usually other people around out of school time - even before Madge marries Jem, so I suppose Joey is already used to sharing Madge considerably before her marriage. (Which might help explain why she's OK with it?) Plus always sharing the people you love seems to form the pattern for all her other relationships later on in life. Even before she has the triplets, it's never just her and Jack, because she and everyone else always consider Robin part of her family unit after her marriage, rather than Madge's (oddly, as Madge is the one who adopted her, isn't she?). Then it's never just Joey, Jack and their biological children; there are always other people, relatives, wards, adoptees, lodgers etc sharing their various homes. (Same with Madge's marriage and family to a certain extent, from Joey and the Bettany and Venables children, and Biddy and Stacie, onward, and you do see slight symptoms of discontent in the case of Sybil resenting 'outsiders' like Robin and her cousins.) Not quite sure what point I'm making, only that Joey having to share Madge with increasing numbers of people - apparently entirely without resentment - seems to establish a pattern of behaviour seen as entirely ordinary within the CS world. The maternal relationships EBD shows us most closely are the ones that involve least sustainedindividual one-on-one between mother-figure and child. And those little parables about Jesus and the apostles and sharing your friends get referenced more than once. But in the CS world it's often not a free choice!

Author:	emma t [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I love the relationship between Madge and Joey; and I do feel that Madge is more of a mother figure to her than a sister; does not Madge say as much when she comes through illnesses, and likewise the birth of the triplets in Exile? The way in which they are not inclusive to each other is nice too; though in a way, they do also like to have time together alone, but to extend their love to Robin and then Juliet is very touching, and freely given without obligation. You can see why other people in the seriel do tend to love 'madam' as the school calls her Yet, though Madge is more of a mother to Joey than as a sister, it does not age Joey as it did say Eustacia or Mary-lou who have grown up ways from a young age. The sisterly feel is still there, and Joey insists she will never grow up in the early books, whereas Madge does try to discourage this from time-time. Also the family include Joey in discussions, and what is going on - so not to leave her out, this would lead to the question as to wether or not Madge is more of a mother or sister to Joey - what do others think? I am currently reading 'Camp' and something is mentioined along the lines that they could not leave her ignorant as to what was happening with the Robin, as Joey would never have forgiven them.

Author:	MJKB [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Their relationship has elements of both. You often find this in families where there is a big gap between oldest and youngest. At times we see Madge as more the mother figure, and at other times as more the older sister. I love the scenes where they behave like typical older/younger siblings, and I think EBD portrays this extremely well; Madge is able to be as young as she really is, and there's some good humoured banter between them, which highlights a very different 'Miss Bettany'.

Author:	mohini [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I wonder when Madge started feeling motherly towards Joey. After all she was only 12 when their parents died. I love the relationship between them but feel she was more of an elder sister and therefore she shared her problems with her.If she had been a mother, she would not have divulged about other girls to Joey. The relationship is depicted very nicely in the early books and then in later books, Madge seems to grow but Joey remains a child (except for certain incidences where she shows maturity in understanding problem girls). Joey must have resented the fact that she had to share her sister with Juliet. Hence she must have turned to Robin. Their relationship was very close and complete. They did not let anyone enter their circle (can 2 people form a circle?) I wish there was more of the relation between Madge and Joey mentioned in later books. The elder sister/younger sister, headmistress/student relation changing to nearly equal basis, because a 12 year difference will appear less when they were in their 30s and 40s.And Joey resenting Madge coming as elder sister on her. A drabble anyone?

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
JB wrote: It’s interesting that Joey shows no jealousy of the various wards, particularly Juliet. I think it would have been understandable for her to have resented not having Madge to herself in holiday time. But I think Joey does. In Jo of Joey says to Madge that she's glad she and her are going to the Menschs alone and that Grizel and Juliet aren't coming as she misses having Madge to herself. She doesn't mind sharing her with the Robin as she loves her.

Author:	emma t [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Fiona Mc wrote: JB wrote: It’s interesting that Joey shows no jealousy of the various wards, particularly Juliet. I think it would have been understandable for her to have resented not having Madge to herself in holiday time. But I think Joey does. In Jo of Joey says to Madge that she's glad she and her are going to the Menschs alone and that Grizel and Juliet aren't coming as she misses having Madge to herself. She doesn't mind sharing her with the Robin as she loves her. I agree with this; it's a good point. Prehaps it's because the situations between the wards are so different, Juliet is older and how she is forced up on them may result in some resentment in Joey's mind, though she would never say so; whereas Robin has lost her mother and her father away in Russia. Grizel she has never really be friendly with as such, so it's probably the fact that they will be able to have a peaceful time together without any squabbles breaking out. I could be far off the mark here, but it's just a thought!

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Fiona Mc wrote: But I think Joey does. In Jo of Joey says to Madge that she's glad she and her are going to the Menschs alone and that Grizel and Juliet aren't coming as she misses having Madge to herself. She doesn't mind sharing her with the Robin as she loves her. I don't think you can regard this as jealousy. It is surely just a natural desire to have family time together. Robin has been absorbed into the family unit and presents no disturbance to the sibling bond. Joey's love for Juliet never goes as deeply as her love for the Robin, and she enjoys only a fairly close friendship with Grizel. As a child Joey is portrayed as happy go lucky, gregarious and affectionate. She opens her heart to her adopted little sister, but she does deserve the opportunity to replicate the intimacy she once shared with Madge.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
MJKB wrote: Fiona Mc wrote: But I think Joey does. In Jo of Joey says to Madge that she's glad she and her are going to the Menschs alone and that Grizel and Juliet aren't coming as she misses having Madge to herself. She doesn't mind sharing her with the Robin as she loves her. I don't think you can regard this as jealousy. It is surely just a natural desire to have family time together. Robin has been absorbed into the family unit and presents no disturbance to the sibling bond. Joey's love for Juliet never goes as deeply as her love for the Robin, and she enjoys only a fairly close friendship with Grizel. As a child Joey is portrayed as happy go lucky, gregarious and affectionate. She opens her heart to her adopted little sister, but she does deserve the opportunity to replicate the intimacy she once shared with Madge. I'm not saying she doesn't deserve time allow with her sister. I just think it's interesting Madge allows her that, whereas Joey never allows her children that time a la Melanie Lucas. And I do think Joey is slightly possesive of her relationship with Madge throughout her life. I also think she's tactless quite often with her especially when they are both married with children. I know i would never tell my siblings what I think of their children's behaviour, whereas Joey does quite often with Sybil and later with Ailie and yet Madge never does to Joey, not even when she has Margot with her for a year. The most she says is, she was very weepy at times. And yet Joey must of shown clear aminosity that even a year after Sybil has reformed, Madge is still worried about allowing Joey to have Sybil for the summer. Joey certainly doesn't make any effort to console Sybil after the accident with Josette, when Madge is unable to be there for her as she has a seriously ill child who almost dies. Instead Joey is too busy being angry, and then has to forgive her as she is such a misery. The point is, I think there is a fine line you walk with siblings children and Joey does tend to cross it quite often with Sybil and what I really think is interesting is Joey can't bear to think Madge may make mistakes and blames the child in question instead. I could understand that if Sybil was like that as a teenager and we see Madge pull her up for the things she does wrong consistently and Sybil chose to continue like that, but Sybil is still a kid and Madge does not pull her up consistently. I think Madge and Joey never really get out of their roles of older/younger sister/half parent/child roles and become friends on equal footing

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Author:	MJKB [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Fiona Mc wrote: The point is, I think there is a fine line you walk with siblings children and Joey does tend to cross it quite often with Sybil and what I really think is interesting is Joey can't bear to think Madge may make mistakes and blames the child in question instead. I could understand that if Sybil was like that as a teenager and we see Madge pull her up for the things she does wrong consistently and Sybil chose to continue like that, but Sybil is still a kid and Madge does not pull her up consistently. A really good point, I never really noticed that. When one comes to think of it, Joey does pass very tactless comments about Madge's children, but Madge never retaliates. In Rescue, Madge croons over her new baby Ailie, saying how pretty she is. Joey is quite critical of the baby and dismisses her looks by saying that she isn't a patch on Sybil. Why say such a thing to a mother nursing her new baby? If my sister said such a thing to me at that precious moment, I'd ask her to leave.

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Joey's first remark on seeing Sybil was "Madge Russell! That kid of yours has red hair!" as if having red hair was somehow amusing, rather than "Oh, what a pretty baby," or "Oh, what lovely red hair she's got," or anything else along those lines. I think Jo always saw Madge as part sister, part mother, and would like to've had siblings nearer her own age as well as Madge and Dick. That would explain why she was so keen on having a big family and not having big gaps between her children. I wish EBD had made more of that. The way that Joey repeatedly harps on about wanting to "beat" her friends and siblings in terms of family size, and very rudely says to Samaris that her (Samaris's) parents should have had more children, is something I find very irritating: I think that saying that she wanted a large family because she wished she'd had siblings close to her in age when she was growing up (especially as her health might have meant that she wasn't allowed out to play with friends very often) would have come across much better.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I do now wonder whether Madge ever had to grit her teeth very hard and then get Jem alone in a room for half an hour to rant at him about how annoying Joey could be at times. I can well imagine Sybil or a young Ailie suddenly coming out with "Auntie Joey, what does mummy mean when she says you can be a - a - insult to tactfulness?" (is not very good at thinking of example) Their early relationship is lovely, especially the delicate way that EBD handles Madge and Jem, but later on in the series it seems as if she almost forgets that they're sisters; there doesn't seem to be any intimacy about their relationship, Madge is just a way for Joey to know the latest news at the school.

Author:	La Petite Em [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I completely agree with the majority of you; the early books definitely portray a really close elder/younger sister relationship between Madge and Joey. Madge's reaction to many events seem to me to be more like an elder sister than a mother. For example, explaining to Joey exactly why they are starting up the school in Austria and telling her personal information about Juliet and Veta that is undisclosed from any other pupil. Maybe if Madge had been Joey's mother she wouldn't told Joey as much as she did, trying to protect, treat her more like a child perhaps. I always got the impression that Madge tried to treat Joey as her equal as much as was possible out of school hours. Thinking about it now, it does surprise that they coped with the Headmistress/pupil relationship as well as they did. The moments in Madge's room early in the morning, when she is always teasing Joey about her cold feet or how skinny she is, are some of my favourites in the earlier books.

Author:	MJKB [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
La Petite Em wrote: Thinking about it now, it does surprise that they coped with the Headmistress/pupil relationship as well as they did. The moments in Madge's room early in the morning, when she is always teasing Joey about her cold feet or how skinny she is, are some of my favourites in the earlier books. I love those moments too. I don't quite know why, but I always approved of EBD referring to Madge as a girl in the early books. She takes on so much responsibility and authority that it's nice to see her occasionally act like Joey's contemporary rather than someone from a different generation.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Fiona Mc wrote: I'm not saying she doesn't deserve time allow with her sister. I just think it's interesting Madge allows her that, whereas Joey never allows her children that time a la Melanie Lucas. Yes, that's why I sometimes get rather impatient with the virtual axiom in the later books that sharing your friends/the people you love is always, definitively better and morally elevating, and the more you share them, and the more people you share them with, the better. I agree it's a lovely sentiment, but I'd think it was lovelier if it wasn't practiced so whole-heartedly by Joey without reference to the needs of the rest of her family, who surely deserve a say. The only time we see her consulting the triplets (about Melanie), it's not really a consultation at all, but more or less emotional blackmail. It makes me feel terribly sorry for the triplets, who have to share their mother and their home with so many people all the time, and were understandably looking forward to the relative seclusion of the Tiernsee, with only their immediate family, and then the Richardsons. But they are made to feel they will be disappointing their mother if they don't agree to have Melanie, a complete stranger, along. I realise Joey's own upbringing after the founding of the CS, while very loving, was an endless succession of various 'sharings' of her own mother-figure - so I suppose you could see Joey's idea of what consitutes family life as being moulded by that. But as you say, Fiona Mc, Madge does contrive to have some one-on-one time with her, at least in the early days, whereas Joey doesn't seem to try to protect family time at all, or even to see it as something needing protecting. I honestly feel that this desire to stuff Freudesheim (and earlier than that, Die Rosen) with as many people as possible suggests some personal quirk of EBD's, as well as the demands of the CS plots. Is it that EBD is still thinking of Joey as the most popular girl in the school, and thinks that the more people she puts around her, seeking her company and loving her, the better it makes her look? Or is it, as I sometimes think, that EBD herself was lonely, and couldn't conceive of anything better than being at the centre of a huge family unit, like Madge, and later Joey? Fiona Mc wrote: I think Madge and Joey never really get out of their roles of older/younger sister/half parent/child roles and become friends on equal footing I think part of the problem is that Madge remains the authority figure/mother - the one who is always right, sensitive and shrewd - until Joey's marriage, but after that, that maternal role moves to Joey, so there's nothing really for Madge to do, except show up the odd time to rebuke Joey for trying to do too much. It wouldn't work for EBD to be still frequently showing Madge 'mothering' Joey, because it would undermine Joey's authority.

Author:	Cel [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Fiona Mc wrote: I'm not saying she doesn't deserve time allow with her sister. I just think it's interesting Madge allows her that, whereas Joey never allows her children that time a la Melanie Lucas. But presumably there are lots of holidays (and Christmas-times and so on) we don't see where it's just the Maynards at Die Blumen or wherever - I don't think it's necessarly fair to infer from this one that Joey 'never' has time alone with her children. But for the purposes of moving the story along, it's necessary to introduce new characters, and I suppose EBD felt that with the Maynards as the central family in the books, that was the obvious place to link them in. I would see the family 'extras' very much as plot fodder - like the ever-changing foster family in Home and Away

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Cel wrote: But presumably there are lots of holidays (and Christmas-times and so on) we don't see where it's just the Maynards at Die Blumen or wherever - I don't think it's necessarly fair to infer from this one that Joey 'never' has time alone with her children. But to quote Derrida - as Chubbymonkey has been quoting Saussure elsewhere on the CBB! - 'there is nothing outside the text'. The CS isn't a series of real-life experiences, some (but not all) of which EBD kindly wrote down for us. There's only the fiction. If she didn't write about something, then by definition it never happened. EBD may well have intended us to understand that there were dozens of family-only Maynard occasions, for instance, but if she never saw fit to invent them on the page, whether directly or by retrospective reference, then they never 'happened'. So while we playfully speculate about things that happen 'offstage' so to speak - nearly all drabbles are, I suppose, an attempt to fill in the offstage moments - really, there is no offstage! All we get is what she tells us, which is an apparently endless succession of extra people living with/holidaying with the Maynards. We can speculate about EBD's intentions, but we can't know them, and texts go beyond, complicate or contradict their author's conscious intentions all the time, as we often discuss very interestingly on here - we can only know what EBD tells us. It's like that very interesting discussion about the conspicuous lack of Madge and Joey (who have more cause than most to hate Nazism) doing war work in the war books - we can speculate about why EBD doesn't mention her sympathetic main characters doing so, or whether she was assuming the reader would assume they were doing war work without it being mentioned, but all we actually get within the text is a rather hostile attitude to evacuees, which is interesting in itself. Quite possibly not what EBD intended at all - because it risks making her favourite character look selfish and snobbish, which surely she can't have intended, as it's completely out of character for Joey - but it's what she (EBD) said! Which makes me think (sorry, wildly OT) - are there any EBD papers, manuscripts etc surviving, does anyone know? Her rough drafts/second thoughts etc would be terribly interesting. I always assume (in part due to the number of EBDisms and in part due to the sheer amount of words she produced some years, while also teaching) that she wrote fast and edited very little...

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Which makes me think (sorry, wildly OT) - are there any EBD papers, manuscripts etc surviving, does anyone know? Her rough drafts/second thoughts etc would be terribly interesting. I always assume (in part due to the number of EBDisms and in part due to the sheer amount of words she produced some years, while also teaching) that she wrote fast and edited very little... I think that there must be some, as my copy of 'Visitors' says in the foreword that: Quote: ...the chance discovery of some sketchy notes among Elinor's papers finally pointed the way. For that scribbled page indicated that, at some time, Elinor may herself have considered writing a retrospective book... May I also just say that I would love to counter your Derrida arguments (I've never studied him, but my friend speaks of him with great horror, so I think I should probably be thankful for that!) using Lacanian theory, but that I don't want to hi-jack the thread even more with dry theory! So I will content myself by saying that I don't think it's fair to say that there is just the text - though you do make a rather good argument for that! - when even theorists can't agree about it!

Author:	Cel [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: But to quote Derrida - as Chubbymonkey has been quoting Saussure elsewhere on the CBB! - 'there is nothing outside the text'. The CS isn't a series of real-life experiences, some (but not all) of which EBD kindly wrote down for us. There's only the fiction. If she didn't write about something, then by definition it never happened. I have very little knowledge of literary theory, so this is purely my own opinion on the matter, but the way I would see it is as follows: there are vast chunks of time within the CS universe - most of the holiday time and occasional full terms, as well as anything that happens offstage during the time period of any of the books - that we never see. Some of this is referred to in retrospect, most of it is left purely to our imagination. In filling in the blanks, to me the obvious thing to do would be to imagine the most likely or most natural scenario based on what the characters do when we do see them. Most stories don't contain the information that as well as rescuing a cat from a tree and narrowly avoiding death by avalanche, Naughty Middle X also brushed her teeth and visited the toilet before Fruhstuck. But we use our own knowledge of the particular universe the characters inhabit to fill the gaps in the timeline. So instead of assuming that a socially-conscious, generous person like Madge, who we later see fully involved in her community in things like the WI, simply sat at home for the duration of the war, my natural assumption would be that she contributed to the war effort in the way that would be most typical for a woman of her circumstances. It would seem a much bigger logical leap to assume that she bucked the trend and did nothing. Similarly, it's a bigger leap of the imagination to think that Joey filled every holiday time with unnamed wards we ever hear of again; therefore, for the episodes that aren't described, I assume the most likely scenario of a quiet family Christmas or whatever the case may be. Ok, I'm not sure if this is making sense to anyone so I'll stop now

Author:	abbeybufo [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I don't have them myself, but from what I've heard about the Chalet Club Newsletters wherein EBD answered questions from readers, it would suggest that even if not written down, EBD herself had in her head a whole world of what was happening to the characters which she hadn't actually published - so she could say that so-and-so had done this or that in response to a fan's enquiry...

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
abbeybufo wrote: I don't have them myself, but from what I've heard about the Chalet Club Newsletters wherein EBD answered questions from readers, it would suggest that even if not written down, EBD herself had in her head a whole world of what was happening to the characters which she hadn't actually published - so she could say that so-and-so had done this or that in response to a fan's enquiry... But if it doesn't make it onto the page, those 'other' details which she didn't consider to be sufficiently important to put in one of the novels are only evidence of her authorial intention - or her intention at one point in time, at least. It doesn't have any more authority than what does go into the texts of the novels, and sometimes it actually contradicts it - I'm thinking of things like the fact that she told a fan in a newsletter than Jack was a cradle Catholic, whereas he is clearly C of E in the early books. She may well have had all kinds of details in her head that never made it into print, but while they're terribly interesting as evidence of how she herself conceived of her characters etc, and how she intended us to read them, I don't think we need to privilege them as What the Books Really Mean. Many of us find elements in the books that EBD never meant - we find the bits of Joey that are clearly supposed to be charming maddening (look at the different range of readings of that conversation between Jo and Samaris about Sophie Hamel!), or we find the religion sickly, or observe that the depiction of Biddy O'Ryan, the evacuees, Ros Lilley and Joan Baker suggests unconscious class anxiety in EBD etc etc. EBD didn't intend any of that, but those are perfectly valid readings of the books. It's similar for me with the 'omission' of Maynard-only occasions, or Madge and Joey's war work. Of course literary works are by their nature selective, choosing which imaginary details are most important to give a flavour of the 'whole' fictional universe and ranking them in order of importance, but given that EBD does (to disagree for a minute with Cel's example of bathroom stuff being omitted by convention! ) tend to put in all kinds of detail most writers leave out on the assumption the reader takes it for granted (I can't think of another GO writer who spends so much time describing the bathing routine in book after book!), I do find it significant what she chooses to put in the novels doesn't include those elements. She intends us to see Madge and Jem and Joey and Jack as perfect parents, yet what she shows us includes specific evidence that some children from both families feel resentful or neglected in the crowd. And she's shown us in Exile - in some of her best writing - how much her main characters confronted Nazism in Austria, so it seems like a significant omission to me that she doesn't find fictional room for a mention of what Madge and Joey are up to in war terms in the UK. We can assume it, certainly, but why does EBD not mention it as a significant detail, when she does have Miss Everett going on about striking plants, or giving us a detailed backstory on Ernest Howell's stepmother?

Author:	Nightwing [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
I don't think there's any point arguing over who's right or wrong here; like most things, it comes down to reader interpretation far more than authorial intent! As weird as it sounds, it almost seems to me that EBD didn't have much idea of life in the country during WWII - which must be wrong, because didn't she live in the real life 'Armiford' around this point? - but considering she seems to think that all the children sent away from London during the Blitz were working class, I'd say that at the very least she's mentally removed from parts of real life. And, of course, there's always the chance that her editor/publisher didn't want too include some information, or some aspects of the war! It makes sense to me to include the scenes on gardening, as girl readers might be gardening for the first time; here was a way of pushing the information on them. Madge's war work might have been deemed too much, or too uninteresting to readers, or perhaps EBD's own interest or knowledge was lacking. Naturally, some people are going to interpret this as Madge not doing any war work, and others are going to argue that she's just not shown as doing any - quite a difference, really. Obviously I'm a massive Joey defender - one of the things that amuses me is that Joey is accused of often going into the school and disrupting lessons. To me, the fact that it is such a big deal when she does would suggest that she seldom does it; and we often only 'see' Jo in the staffroom once a book, yet some people see her as constantly popping over to the school, whereas I'd assume she actually had to spend a chunk of her time at the San, as the head doctor's wife. These are both different interpretations; neither one is right or wrong, and since EBD never wrote "Joey spent most of her time at school" or "Joey visited the school once a term, and was always welcomed" we have no idea what her intent was. Interpretation becomes far more important.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Nightwing wrote: one of the things that amuses me is that Joey is accused of often going into the school and disrupting lessons. To me, the fact that it is such a big deal when she does would suggest that she seldom does it; and we often only 'see' Jo in the staffroom once a book, yet some people see her as constantly popping over to the school, whereas I'd assume she actually had to spend a chunk of her time at the San, as the head doctor's wife. That's interesting, isn't it, though, that so many CBB readers registerJoey as often disrupting CS lessons, even if it arguably happens very rarely? Reader response theory would have interesting things to say about how and why the books create that impression in the reader (even if a count of actual occasions of interruption or staffroom visits produced very few instances), but I am determined to shut up about lit crit! I'm not in the least claiming I am 'right', by the way - I think that would be depressing and suggest that other people's readings of the CS books were less legitimate than mine, which would be awful! I just thought it was worth pointing out that the 'work' that we do as readers to fill in gaps in the text is necessarily personal to each reader, as well as time- and culture-specific, and that it's interesting to think about what EBD chooses not to specify, given how obsessively detailed she is over certain other aspects of the CS which are largely passed over in other GO books. Maybe that's the issue, really - that EBD isn't, especially as the series goes on into its later stages, a 'light-handed' or pacy writer, so she seems to feel increasingly that she can't simply mention something briefly as a background fact while concentrating on something that interests her more in the foreground. So she simply isn't the kind of writer who would slip in a single phrase about Madge coming over to Plas Gwyn to help sew Simone's wedding dress straight from a meeting of the local Land Girls' committee or having dropped off a load of silver paper for salvage, or something, and then pass on to the wedding. She tends to go very thoroughly into anything she mentions. Back on topic, I was flicking through Goes To It while thinking about this, and it's nice to see Madge quite realistically still partly on mother-hen/older sister mode with Joey, despite Joey being a married mother of three - she's still anxious that Joey didn't upset Gwensi Howell further, and she steps in when Joey is very juvenile with the Colonel: Quote: Mrs Russell hastily spoke up in a noble endeavour to smooth things over. ‘You must forgive my sister. Colonel. She isn’t very many years from her own schooldays, even yet; and—and——’ She faltered and ceased, having encountered a look so appalling from Jo that she was momentarily thrown off her balance. ‘What on earth did you want to blether like that for?’ demanded the latter young lady later on. ‘Because he was mad enough without you making things worse!’ retorted Madge Russell severely. ‘Really, Jo, considering you’re a married woman and the mother of a family, I must say you haven’t much sense!’ ‘I meant to madden him,’ was Jo’s unchristian remark. ‘He had a nerve, I must say, to go questioning the girls like that, let alone the Staff! What does he take us for? I don’t believe he’s an Englishman at all! He’s a wretched Nazi dressed up in our uniform, going round to make people discontented with the Government. ‘I’ve heard they did that sort of thing in the last war.’ ‘If you go broadcasting scandalous statements of that kind you’ll find yourself one of the chief figures in a libel action,’ returned Madge. ‘For Heaven’s sake hold your tongue and try to develop a little common sense, Josephine!’ I really like that - it's kind of transitional. Joey is still a bit of a dingbat, and Madge can't (understandably enough in this case) quite see Joey as a grown-up.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Cel wrote: Fiona Mc wrote: I'm not saying she doesn't deserve time allow with her sister. I just think it's interesting Madge allows her that, whereas Joey never allows her children that time a la Melanie Lucas. But presumably there are lots of holidays (and Christmas-times and so on) we don't see where it's just the Maynards at Die Blumen or wherever - I don't think it's necessarly fair to infer from this one that Joey 'never' has time alone with her children. But for the purposes of moving the story along, it's necessary to introduce new characters, and I suppose EBD felt that with the Maynards as the central family in the books, that was the obvious place to link them in. I would see the family 'extras' very much as plot fodder - like the ever-changing foster family in Home and Away I can understand that it, just Margot says herself that she doesn't feel like she gets much time with her mother and all the triplets say the biys feel they get even less. If the triplets didn't mind wholeheartedly then I wouldn't care who she invited, but they do care and feel like they miss time with their mother. Madge on the other hand is always concerned about how Joey feels about that issue especially in relation with Jem Quote: I really like that - it's kind of transitional. Joey is still a bit of a dingbat, and Madge can't (understandably enough in this case) quite see Joey as a grown-up. I can see that quite often in the books especially afte Mike goes down the cliff, Madge is justifiably annoyed that Joey is still refusing to rest, when she has a two hour faint and Joey is happy to leave all the responsibility to Len. I really wish Madge had said more about that to Joey

Author:	MJKB [ Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
All of the above on reader response theory is utterly fascinating. Thanks to all contributors. Reading though this thread, I realise that I'm more of a Joey fan than I thoughtI was. I always knew that I missed Madge when she fades into the background of the series, but I never really thought about my 'relationship' with Joey. On reflection however, I remember feeling almost cheated when she doesn't appear in the flesh in Shocks; something was definitely missing for me. It sounds ridiculous, but it was a bit like the emptiness created when a close family member isn't around. And I do enjoy Joey's frequent/infrequent visits to the School, although I have often written negatively about them. Her emotional backmail of the triplets in Future, however, I still see negatively, but that's as much about me as it is about Joey. I am the youngest of seven, and when I was about 10, my mother took in two much younger cousins of ours to live with us when their mother was hospitalised. They lived with us on and off for about three years. I found it a big struggle to overcome feelings of resentment towards them for their intrusion into my life. Oddly enough, I adored my younger cousin who was about 18 months old at the time and an absolute doll, it was her older brother of nearly four I resented more. He had been neglected due to his mother's pyschiatric illness and was in dire need of help across the spectrum. I felt very guilty about my feelings towards him and it would have helped if my mother had understood why. I spoke to one of the nuns at school and she was very understanding and helped me to see that jealousy, while it can be a very destructive emotion, was a natural result of my sense of displacement. Anyway, I haven't thought about this for many, many years, it just came into my mind while I was reading through the thread.

Author:	Mia [ Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Siblings: Madge & Joey
Helen McLelland was EBD's literary executor and currently the EBD papers are part of her own estate.