The CBB :: View topic - School: Going to University

Josette Russell is apparently told that there will not be a vacancy for her at LSE (BTW, can you imagine a CS girl at LSE, which at the time was well-known for being a hotbed of left-wing politics?) until the middle of the academic year .

I think most CS girls arriving at an Oxbridge women's college would have died of shock at the general lack of official interest in their health

On a separate note, when Sybil talks about her wanting to go to the School of Needlework ..

London University (1836) was one of the first to be set up with the fixed intention of having no limit to the student body.

Bill tutors Penny through her Latin exam because it was a requirement of entry at the time, too.
quote]

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JB wrote:

Am I right in thinking that as a Catholic, you wouldn't have been allowed to go to Oxford or Cambridge until the years of this century?

Am I right in thinking that as a Catholic, you wouldn't have been allowed to go to Oxford or Cambridge until the years of this century? I have a vague memory of hearing this on This Sceptred Isle on BBC 7.

since UCL was noticeably different

but would there still have been a religious requirement at some teacher training colleges in CS days?

The plot involving Alicia getting her come-uppance by becoming ill during the exams is very CS-esque, come to think of it.

What about the interviews? No one ever seems to be interviewed by their prospective universities do they?

I can imagine some of the CS girls hanging around in little cliques at Oxford and not really mixing with other people, and others doing the opposite and mixing with people with very different attitudes and outlooks. I would think that a lot of people who didn't really shine at the CS might have blossomed at university, whereas people who were totally immersed in CS culture might have found it difficult to adapt to their new environment.

Is Josette Russell, who ended up going to university in Sydney instead of, as planned, London, the only British girl who ends up studying outside Britain? It might've been interesting to've seen more girls study in other countries.

would there still have been a religious requirement at some teacher training colleges in CS days?

Sunglass wrote:

Even at a white-tile university we found that ex-boarding school girls had a hard time coping.

Sorry, this is a stupid question, but what is a white-tile university? I've never heard that phrase before

I always think the Oxford-bound would have been freaked out by how much of your time is entirely your own to plan, where you might only have two scheduled tutorial hours a week - the complete opposite of the CS study system, where you simply aren't allowed to work outside certain set hours.

.....

The CS is an usually regimented system, with every minute of your day set out for you, and a very clear sense of what is 'good' behaviour and thought, that I always imagine ex-CS girls would have extra difficulties adjusting to life 'outside' the system.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:37 am ]
Post subject:	School: Going to University
Sorry this is late I forgot it was my turn. (Not an excuse, I know) Many students throughout the series go to university, with the most popular choice seeming to be Oxford. However, many more characters go to other universities, within England and also across Europe and other continents. The Therese LePattre Scholarship was given as a reason for at least one student choosing the CS, despite only being applicable to certain universities. Do you think EBD shows an accurate portrayal of going to university, or is this rather skimmed over in the books? Why? Does EBD portray differently those girls who don't go on to university - if so, how? What do you think the universities would have made of girls from the CS? Do her views on going to university change over time to reflect changing attitudes of society? Discuss these and any other points below. Idea by Cat C.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I find her portrayal of the university application system, certainly by the later books - I realise that before the Second World War there were considerably fewer applications and that it was relatively easy for people from schools like the CS to "get in" - totally unrealistic. By the 1950s, anyone applying to a British university would, depending on whether it was Oxford/Cambridge or another university either have had to pass an entrance exam or else have been required to get certain grades in their A-levels. Nobody at the CS ever seems to have to go through any sort of application process - even if you argue that EBD just didn't show it, the way that they airily talk about how they're going to AN University before they're even in their final year at school suggests that they expect just to get in automatically. Jack Maynard talks to Roger Richardson about "putting his name down" for university, Josette Russell is apparently told that there will not be a vacancy for her at LSE (BTW, can you imagine a CS girl at LSE, which at the time was well-known for being a hotbed of left-wing politics?) until the middle of the academic year . We never see anyone waiting anxiously for A-level results and worrying about what will happen if they don't get the necessary grades, and AFAIK we never see anyone not getting a place on the course of their choice. Sorry to sound so damning! It just annoys me that the portrayal of the situation, certainly in the later books, is not only outdated but factually inaccurate. I accept that EBD had just got out of touch, but surely she should have been aware that things had changed, and may not even have been that way in the first place. Also, I think that a lot of potentially good storylines are missed - we never see, for example, anything about the problems faced by someone having to stay on at school with girls a year younger than them, or someone having to rethink their plans after failing to get a place on the course they wanted to do. We don't see much of the girls at university, but that's not unreasonable as the books are set at the school. It would be very interesting to see how they went on, especially girls in the later books who might have found a very big contrast between life at the CS and life at university. Very few universities are actually mentioned, which also annoys me. Oxford, London, the Sorbonne, Edinburgh, Sydney (in Josette's case), Bedford teacher training college ... that seems to be about it!! The proportion of girls going on to further education certainly increases in the later books, so at least in that way social change is more realistically reflected. Sorry about the essay . Very boring day at work!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I think she's so anxious to establish the CS's academic credentials via students going on to well-known universities that she loses the plot a bit. Or is it that she thinks it would look as though the CS had failed them if she showed applicants having to absolutely slave to get good enough exam results to get a place? I know the school gets more academic as it goes on, but it's a bit unlikely that Simone, the earliest academic high-flier, would have got her Sorbonne place only working CS hours, as they were in the Tyrol days, compared to other applicants from within the French school system. There's that slightly snooty bit about the length of hours of work at Austrian schools at the start of School At - where Gisela or someone says that their parents think such schools aren't healthy, even if the education is better - but I'm not sure EBD thought about the fact that her girls would be competing with 'unhealthy', highly academic schools (the kind of thing Miss Bubb wanted the CS to become) for university places! Or maybe she thought that endless milk, fresh air and not being allowed to cram would carry them on to starred firsts? I think most CS girls arriving at an Oxbridge women's college would have died of shock at the general lack of official interest in their health, the other students' attitude to men, and the fact that they were expected to perform well in exams and tutorials, whether or not they stayed up all night working or dancing! Some of the big boys' public schools in the UK did have a special dispensation where they had a number of guaranteed places for their pupils at Oxbridge - might have gone on till the 60s? not sure - so maybe EBD assumed the CS could have a similar arrangement...?

Author:	JB [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Alison H wrote: Quote: Josette Russell is apparently told that there will not be a vacancy for her at LSE (BTW, can you imagine a CS girl at LSE, which at the time was well-known for being a hotbed of left-wing politics?) until the middle of the academic year . This is something which only appears in the paperback. In the hardback, Josette is going to train as a radiographer and the hospital won't have a vacancy. It sticks in my mind because Josette always seems an academic girl who would be likely to go to Uni and I wonder why someone felt the need to make such a radical (no pun intended) change. IIRC the first girls who go to Uni are Juliet (Royal Holloway) and Simone (Sorbonne) who both study maths. It's only when the school moves to England that everyone goes to Oxford, regardless of what they've previously said about their career plans. In Goes to It, Beth says she wants to be a gardener and to train at Swanley. Later on, we're told she's been to Oxford, although she doesn't use her degree (she's somewhat overqualified for tutoring Barbara and acting as mother's help to Joey). It would have been good to see girls who were worried about going to University but who overcame these concerns after talking to a member of staff. As access to higher education grew, this would surely have been useful to readers. Or Special Sixth could have had people who had to re-sit exams. I'd have liked to see a girl who had to compromise on her plans - course or choice of University. I think a lot of CS girls would have struggled to find their feet at Uni because they have so little freedom and contact with the outside world once the school moves to Switzerland. I've enjoyed drabbles which have shown Mary Lou and Len, two high-achievers within the CS, have problems at Oxford. Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Quote: I think most CS girls arriving at an Oxbridge women's college would have died of shock at the general lack of official interest in their health I love this - the thought of all those CS girls wondering why no-one had brought round the hot milk if they got their feet wet. I've wondered about the comments about the Austrian school system too, given that all the Austrian girls expect to help at home when they leave school and marry very young. Is that another missed storyline - the Austrian girl who wanted to go on to Uni? Will stop now as the post van has just dropped off 4 parcels for me.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I quite like the lack of interest in the university system - it's far more interesting to have another prank/ a discussion by the staff instead of reams about angsting over exam results/getting the place you want (though perhaps I am slightly biased at present). However, I do agree with the changing characters, and this not seeming to be a huge part of life. I think that we hear a lot about Simone's worries with regard to the Sorbonne, and this makes her far more realistic a character than some of those who seem to think they can just walk into university. Though perhaps, being so isolated, they simply assumed it would be like another St. Mildreds, and did get a shock when they got there! I can't even begin to imagine the response to them at university, though I do love the idea of all of the CS girls at Oxford being regarded as some odd new species who exist on hot milk and crusty rolls, and have a phobia of the rain.

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School: Going to University http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6392

Author:	Tor [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I'd really like to know about how the university application worked in 'the olden days'. Presumable there was always some kind of entrance exam, at least in the 20th Century, but if there were fees to be paid then it also seems like the standard might have been a bit cough flexible if, say, andoxbridge college was in need of an endowment here or there....? Maybe the exams weren't al that hard, but you just had to be able to fork out for the fees...? Plenty of wealthy wasters going up, then getting sent down for being a bit dim. Didn't Prince Charles go to Oxford despite getting D grades? If you won a scholarship, for example (presumably attained by academic/musical/sporting achievement), did that mean there was always a place kept aside for that scholarship winner at the university or did you also have to obtain your acceptance at the university separately? In Gaudy Night, it seems that local education authorities had scholarships available to go on to university (e.g. the girl with a 'common' accent, who tries to kill herself in the river spoiler in white) I tried to do some googling on this (history of oxford/cambridge application entrance, and various permutations of this) but I just got reams of pages on the current system of how to apply for a history degree! On a separate note, when Sybil talks about her wanting to go to the School of Needlework, I alwys think of the hours i whiled away in Southside Bar (alas, no more) at Imperial college. On the wall there was a picture of the student at the School of Mines, and the school of needlework beside it. It's funny to think of Imperial College as it is now as a hot-bed of needlework all those years ago..

Author:	JB [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Tor wrote: Quote: On a separate note, when Sybil talks about her wanting to go to the School of Needlework .. I was thinking about Sybil earlier. Madge says (talking of Ailie) that she hoped she'd have one quiet, ladylike daughter (or words to that effect), it'd be difficult to think of a more ladylike occupation than embroidery, wouldn't it? Good question about scholarships. I'd never thought of that. Would you have to be accepted by the University and then apply for the scholarship?

Author:	abbeybufo [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Dragging up memories of more than 40 years ago when I was at school, certainly with Oxbridge, if you got a scholarship all your tuition fees were paid, meaning the local authority didn't need to, and if you got an 'exhibition' your tuition and books AND living accommodation were all paid for, so you didn't need the grant said local authority paid at the time. I know this doesn't get as far back [quite!] as EBD was depicting. These awards were made according to results from the Oxbridge entrance exams to the various colleges [which were separate from A levels] - at least, Oxford had a single exam for its 5 womens' colleges, Cambridge had 2 exams, one for New Hall, one for Girton/Newnham, IIRC [it's a long time ago that I took them - and failed!! ]

Author:	Emma A [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
In the early days, it's quite realistic for the characters to really not bother much with university: women had to be very single-minded and determined to study for a degree, and not all universities would even allow women to study; or, if they did, allow them to take degrees. This is why, I think, the early pupils go on to Oxford (apart from Juliet, about which more later), since by the 1930s Oxford were allowing women both to study at the university and to take full degrees. This didn't happen at Cambridge until after WW2 (1948, I think).* London University (1836) was one of the first to be set up with the fixed intention of having no limit to the student body - University College, for example, allowed non-Christians and women into their ranks from its foundation - and of course, Royal Holloway (founded 1879) and Bedford (founded 1849) colleges were constituted as women-only colleges in the university in 1900. Other universities, such as Durham, for example, admitted women from 1899, allowing them to take degrees there. Other universities are mentioned, but I think EBD wanted to show how prestigious an education from the Chalet School would be, by having her girls go to Oxford and London (and Edinburgh, in Margot's case). She does make reference to some exam scare in one of the later Swiss books - I think it's Josette worrying about some last-minute revision, and being very firmly told by the staff that she can't and shouldn't do any extra work. *The early treatment of women students at Cambridge is one of the plot points of Jill Paton Walsh's A Piece of Justice, if anyone's interested. In reply to Tor, Prince Charles went to Cambridge, despite not getting the grades (as did Edward). He was at the 800th anniversary Prom a fortnight ago...

Author:	judithR [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I went up in 1967. At that point the central applications system, then know as UCCA, was in its infancy. Oxbridge & the London medical schools, attached to hospitals & not the same arrangement as presently, were outside the system. We had six choices inside & as many outside as we liked. Some places wouldn't look at you if they weren't first or second choice. Grants were also in their infancy. I can't remember when the State City/County scholarships ended (these were determined on the results of the "S" level paper). There were way fewer universities & courses, only about 3% actualy went on to tertiary education. Almost all were interviewed. there was something called an unconditional acceptance - 2Es, and offers were generally lower than today. Oxbridge was by examination. Specific colleges for boys, a pool for girls as there were fewer & all were single-sex. Most people took the Oxbridge exams for the first time in their 4th term sixth, some were then interviewed & were either rejected or given offers. Charles - if I remember correctly was given an offer at this point. Scholarship & exhibitions could be awarded after the admissions exam or at any time during the course. Non-Oxbridge universities did and do give scholarships. Most people were rejected first time round & then applied to Oxbridge again (with another exam) after A-Levels. They then left school at Xmas & worked for two terms - the beginning of the gap year. A grades at A-Level were unusual & firsts few & far between. Sometimes there would not be any awarded and more than two per degree course was unusual. I can expound on main & subsid subjects too, but will, with apologies for the essay, stop now.

Author:	Emma A [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Geoffrey Trease talks about entrance to and life in 1950s Oxford University in The Gates of Bannerdale, both for his hero Bill and for Penny. Bill is reading Classics (partly because the university has a lot of Classics scholarships available, which was a pre-requisite for Bill, whose family is not well-off), and Penny English. Bill tutors Penny through her Latin exam because it was a requirement of entry at the time, too.

Author:	JB [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Penny is another character who suddenly decides that she wants to go to Oxford and gets there (although we see has to work to achieve it). Emma A mentioned: Quote: London University (1836) was one of the first to be set up with the fixed intention of having no limit to the student body. Am I right in thinking that as a Catholic, you wouldn't have been allowed to go to Oxford or Cambridge until the years of this century? I have a vague memory of hearing this on This Sceptred Isle on BBC 7.

Author:	judithR [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Emma A wrote: Bill tutors Penny through her Latin exam because it was a requirement of entry at the time, too. quote] . JB wrote: Am I right in thinking that as a Catholic, you wouldn't have been allowed to go to Oxford or Cambridge until the years of this century? Up until sometime in the late 1800s (don't have book with me). UCL was the first "secular" college in London & received it's charter on the coat tails of Kings which was a CofE foundation. Again, I don't have the exact dates with me. It was a requirement for all courses at Scottish Universities at that time. I went to school in Carlisle & all of us university hopefuls had to take Latin "O" Level. It was also a requiste for medicine, history and modern lnguages at most universities. And even reading sciences one needed a modern foreign language at "O" Level Sorry all - I messed up the quote. This was me not Emma A.

Author:	Emma A [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
JB wrote: Am I right in thinking that as a Catholic, you wouldn't have been allowed to go to Oxford or Cambridge until the years of this century? I have a vague memory of hearing this on This Sceptred Isle on BBC 7. I think up till 1871 - the Wikipedia entry for Durham University indicates that "dissenters" (so even non-CofE Protestants) were allowed to study at Durham, but had to take a London University exam at the end of their course (up until 1871). I imagine that this was the same for Oxbridge, since UCL was noticeably different.

Author:	Tor [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Quote: since UCL was noticeably different Good old Godless Place! That's why I chose it... though I can't see it being popular with EBD for that reason. No-one goes to Kings's do they?

Author:	judithR [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
[/quote]No-one goes to Kings's do they?[/quote] That polytecnic round the corner?

Author:	Tor [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
That's the one!

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
The religious requirements for universities were abolished in England and Wales in 1871. AFAIK they only ever applied to Oxford, Cambridge and Durham, the older universities. They were abolished slightly later in Scotland and Ireland. I'm not an expert on teacher training but I know that a lot of people here will be :. Some teacher training colleges still have links with either the Anglican or Catholic churches although they cannot now legally discriminate against people of other denominations or none, but would there still have been a religious requirement at some teacher training colleges in CS days?

Author:	judithR [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Alison H wrote: but would there still have been a religious requirement at some teacher training colleges in CS days? Certainly in the 1940s. When the Aged Parent went to St Hild's, then a teacher training college, it was a still a CofE foundation. And I think there were still some in the 1960s when my contemporaries were applying

Author:	MaryR [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I went to a Catholic Teacher Training College in Prestwich in Manchester in 1965 - run by the FCJ nuns, who were exceedingly autoctratic and expected us all to be very, VERY, chaste. Doors locked at 10pm during the week, and NO members of the opposite sex in one's room. I remember once being hauled out of a film at the boys' training college, as we would have been too late if we had stayed till the end. I leave you to imagine the boys' cat calls as we crept out ignominiously. I don't regret it, though, as I was able to join the select few who did the very first B.Ed - and thus studied French and English much more intensely than I would have done on the teaching diploma. In fact, I spent more time on my French than I ever spent on the psychology, philosophy and sociology of education. But, boy, we worked hard for four years, and didn't even get an Honours at the end of it - that came later.

Author:	Emma A [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Most of the pupils, even those who came back to teach, don't seem to have studied at teacher training colleges, do they? An Honours degree (BA or BSc) was considered quite sufficient (as it still is in some private schools).

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I found this in a newspaper article on the Laura Spence story from a few years back: Yet until the mid-60s, alumni of the seven elite English boarding schools (Eton, Harrow, Westminster, Rugby, Winchester, Charterhouse, and Shrewsbury) were not even required to pass exams to gain admission. The headmaster of Harrow even lodged a complaint when he discovered that his pupils would finally be assessed on their A-level results. This is admission to Oxbridge, by the way. I think this may have been something EBD assumed to be the case with all 'good' schools, and that it's behind some of the 'putting your name down' stuff (because the only time she specifically says that it's Jack talking to Roger Richardson, who's at an English public school, isn't it?). Though I'm loving the idea of Hilda phoning Oxford in outrage at someone making one of her girls sit an entrance exam! We never, that I can remember anyway, get to hear anything about the application procedure, or failing to get a place in Enid Blyton's school stories, either. Don't Darrell and Sally and Alicia and her friend all appear to get into St Andrew's without any 'will they or won't they' stuff?

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I can actually see the building where your college was from where I'm sitting, Mary: I'd've realised the answer to my question if I'd stopped to think about it! Darrell & co never seemed to have to apply, but at least we see them doing exams! The plot involving Alicia getting her come-uppance by becoming ill during the exams is very CS-esque, come to think of it.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Alison H wrote: The plot involving Alicia getting her come-uppance by becoming ill during the exams is very CS-esque, come to think of it. I do often wonder if EB stole ideas from EBD - does anybody know if Alicia Leonard and Betty Landon became friends before Alicia Johns and Betty thingummy? Or perhaps it was the other way around, and Jessica Wayne came out of Sally Hope... In any case, they certainly seem to share philosophies on the ease in getting into the university of your choice!

Author:	Mel [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
EBD is very vague about whether or not they do A levels, as only Len is 'specialising violently', the other triplets doing the 'general course' which seems to mean they carry on studying everything. What about the interviews? No one ever seems to be interviewed by their prospective universities do they?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Mel wrote: What about the interviews? No one ever seems to be interviewed by their prospective universities do they? I love the idea of a bunch of CS sixth-formers all going to Oxford for interview and being a bit shocked by the lack of dainty floral-sprigged cubicles, stodge rather than delicious fancy-bread twists and the fact that people have never heard of either the CS or Josephine M Bettany. I always have this vision of Mary-Lou continually responding to archaeology interview questions with school legends (probably including the one from Camp where the others plant faux-Napoleonic artefacts for Joey to find in the pit...) It's only Eustacia Benson I can imagine taking to an Oxford women's college like a duck to water - she's obsessed with her subject, indifferent to her surroundings when reading, and will clearly be thrilled to be allowed to be erudite, rather than try to fit in and be a jolly schoolgirl. I see some of the others having serious adjustment difficulties, because life at the CS is so regimented. I would love Len to have a clever Beatnik type as her tutorial partner and for them to become friends and the Beatnik to come and stay at Freudesheim in the vac, jeans, backcombed hair and all, and to remain completely oblivious to all Joey's attempts to kit her out with a dainty frock and big shady hat....

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
It would be fascinating to know how they all coped. Going to university is a big change regardless of what sort of school you've been to or what sort of social background you're from - meeting people from different backgrounds, having to do much more of the research for your work yourself, having to look after yourself rather than being looked after by parents/teachers, finding that just because you may have been one of the best at your particular subject at school doesn't mean that you'll be anywhere near the top of your year at university, having more personal freedom, and even just living in a different place. It's really exciting and it's a great time in your life, but life at the CS was so sheltered that some of the girls might have found it difficult to settle in. I can imagine some of the CS girls hanging around in little cliques at Oxford and not really mixing with other people, and others doing the opposite and mixing with people with very different attitudes and outlooks. I would think that a lot of people who didn't really shine at the CS might have blossomed at university, whereas people who were totally immersed in CS culture might have found it difficult to adapt to their new environment.

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Alison H wrote: I can imagine some of the CS girls hanging around in little cliques at Oxford and not really mixing with other people, and others doing the opposite and mixing with people with very different attitudes and outlooks. I would think that a lot of people who didn't really shine at the CS might have blossomed at university, whereas people who were totally immersed in CS culture might have found it difficult to adapt to their new environment. That's not so different from what really happens, is it? At least, not in my experience! I went to university fully expecting to make a whole bunch of new friends from all over, but in the end the friends I made all already knew each other (even if they were new to me). Some of my friends never figured out how to balance their new-found independence with new-found responsibility and ended up dropping out, while other people thrived on being able to actually be in charge of their own lives! I can see Mary-Lou having a hard time making friends at first, since she does have such a domineering personality; on the other hand, I think she's someone who had always understood responsibility and is very independent, so I don't think that would be a problem for her. She's also essentially good-hearted; once she'd had her edges rubbed off she'd be able to make friends.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I hope Mary-Lou enjoyed university - although in her case she unfortunately had to cope with her mother's death during her degree course. I did feel quite sorry for her at some points towards the end of the her schooldays, especially when she was expected to "sheepdog" Naomi Elton even though she had so many other responsibilities and Naomi wasn't even in her form. Same sort of thing with Len. She'd been expected to be "the responsible one" all her life and was entitled to being able to put her own wishes first at least for a while - I hope the fact that she was engaged didn't stop her going out and enjoying herself. & Con and Verity and various other people who were regarded as being "dreamy" or whatever probably went on much better once they had to look after themselves and didn't have to put up with people saying "Remember Daniel in the lions' den?" etc every five minutes! Is Josette Russell, who ended up going to university in Sydney instead of, as planned, London, the only British girl who ends up studying outside Britain? It might've been interesting to've seen more girls study in other countries.

Author:	JB [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Alison H wrote: Quote: Is Josette Russell, who ended up going to university in Sydney instead of, as planned, London, the only British girl who ends up studying outside Britain? It might've been interesting to've seen more girls study in other countries. I'm not sure about academic studies but musical girls such as Nina Rutherford and, I think, Jacynth Hardy studied in Europe.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Oh, of course - Grizel studied in (I think) Florence. I'd love to know about her time there: I know she didn't want to do music but I'd like to think that she and Gerry really enjoyed themselves. Italy's such a lovely country and at least Grizel was well away from her father and stepmother and anyone connected with them.

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
I always think the Oxford-bound would have been freaked out by how much of your time is entirely your own to plan, where you might only have two scheduled tutorial hours a week - the complete opposite of the CS study system, where you simply aren't allowed to work outside certain set hours. And not just the work, but all the stuff I see my first year undergraduates struggling with when they've moved away from home for the first time, how to run their own lives solo, get up in time for classes, do their laundry etc. The CS is an usually regimented system, with every minute of your day set out for you, and a very clear sense of what is 'good' behaviour and thought, that I always imagine ex-CS girls would have extra difficulties adjusting to life 'outside' the system. I suppose we never see what the CS girls would be like without the CS daily routine around them, suporting them, making them rest and eat well and pray regularly and not overwork and bathe daily and keep their cubicles tidy. There's a deep religious feeling in the school, for instance, but to some extent that must be helped along by group feeling and mutual example - how long before one of the shyer or more lukewarm ex-CS girls stops saying Grace at breakfast-time when everyone around her is either embarrassed, giggling or hostile? (Mary-Lou, who is presented as unusually mature and compassionate, is so gobsmacked to meet an unbaptised person that you wonder how she would deal with a much more secular college environment...?) What about getting up when there's no dormitory prefect to say 'show a leg'? Will they leave their bedclothes on the floor for their scout to pick up now that Matey isn't there to scold? Or is the CS ethos strong enough to survive in a very different environment?

Author:	judithR [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Sunglass wrote: I always think the Oxford-bound would have been freaked out by how much of your time is entirely your own to plan, where you might only have two scheduled tutorial hours a week - the complete opposite of the CS study system, where you simply aren't allowed to work outside certain set hours. Even at a white-tile university we found that ex-boarding school girls had a hard time coping.

Author:	JayB [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: School: Going to University
Quote: would there still have been a religious requirement at some teacher training colleges in CS days? My aunt did the post war emergency teacher training when in her mid to late twenties, having previously been a children's nurse. She had to get herself baptised and confirmed in order to attend her particular college, never having had either done as a child. I agree EBD's depiction of applying to and getting into university is unrealistic. However, although she is out of date in many ways by the end of the series, she is quite forward looking in the post war and Swiss books, in having increasing numbers of girls planning to go on to higher education or some kind of training, and expecting to take up careers. With the big expansion in universities not happening until the mid-60s, for most of EBD's writing career, it wouldn't have been the norm for most school leavers.