The CBB :: View topic - Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue

It just makes me cross that his own children's problems are kept from him - in fact, it has to be pointed out to Jo that they are his children too and she can't keep this from him. It doesn't strike me as very responsible parenting to keep something of this magnitude (and I know, my little brother was exactly the same when it came to temper tantrums) from him.

I think that the religious angle works really well because EBD never labels it as such, or at least not directly. Joey helps because she wants to and because that is what Joey does - I seem to recall one of the others wanting to know why they should help, which Joey doesn't even think about, she just does it.

I’m not impressed by how Joey deals with Margot’s temper and that it’s accepted by the other triplets that this is something to be hidden from Jack. Even if Jack had little involvement with day to day childcare, surely Joey would have talked to him about something this big, which she’s struggling to deal with? As you say, Alison, it’s no wonder the poor child developed those ideas later.

EBD does very much like the bedtime confessions. The Lucy children have the same routine in the La Rochelle books, although they're Protestant.

Another aspect of religion seen in Rescue is the Sodger, the wife of the village vicar, who's shown to be lacking Christian virtues. [...]I find she's a one-dimensional, vicious portrait and I do wonder if she represents some issues which EBD had in real life after her conversion.

JB wrote:
EBD does very much like the bedtime confessions. The Lucy children have the same routine in the La Rochelle books, although they're Protestant.

But at least one of the Lucy children has worked out a cunning method of using the bedtime confessions to his advantage, by realising that the system won't allow him to be punished if he 'confesses' to whatever the misdeed was during the bedtime prayer session! And Julie at least finds this amusing, which suggests maybe it isn't all taken as seriously in the Lucy household...?

[and possibly had become more convinced of this since the La Rochelle version...? Or were these contemporaneous..? Poses some interesting Qs about EBDs religious development]

I really do find it very irritating that Jack gives Reg a long lecture about needing God to be his partner in life: I'm sure that Jack's religious convictions were entirely sincere, but he shouldn't have been pouring them down Reg's ear ...

I wonder if the Maynard emphasis on confession at bedtime could be influenced by the fact that Jack and Jo are both converts? And perhaps more conscious of their religion than they would have been if born to Catholicism. Jack has to have converted, there's no suggestion that Maynie is RC, and of course Joey does later.

This of course gives us another EBDism with Maynie being definitely stated to be Protestant in the early Tirol books - perhaps she converted the other way?

I think perhaps some of the views expressed in this thread are being a bit harsh on Joey - don't forget that there has been a complete sea-change in how much fathers are now involved in bringing up their children and it would very much have been the case in those days in most families that it was mother's responsibility to see to the day-to-day rearing and father would only have been brought in as a court of last resort.

I actually find Jack's talk with Reg to be quite natural. He knows that Reg hasn't had much of a father figure in his young life, and is showing his willingness to take on that role however 'unofficially'....and talking about faith and God and the need for Him in your life would be part and parcel of that parental responsibility.

For me, the most problematic portion of the book is that which deals with Zephyr. Zephyr never rings true as a character IMO. I feel that her nastier traits have been written purely to show a remarkable conversion when she meets Robin

I would assume that EBD decided, after her own conversion, that she wanted Joey to marry a Catholic, and therefore conveniently forgot that Jack was originally a Protestant! After all, characters change their names and ages at random, so why not their religions too ?

Jo got off her sofa, and, swaying a little as she walked, for she was still very weak, she went to a beautiful prie-dieu standing in a corner of the room, and from it took a rosary of cornelian beads, with silver links. ‘Here is Jack’s rosary—the one he used until he went away. I gave him a new one then, and he left this with me. He used it every day from the time he was a boy at school. Take this, Fiona.

...but I don't think the bedtime thing is too weird if it's a gentle little chat... are we ever given a session verbatim or the specif set up?

She went out and Jo, sitting down again at the window, collected her daughters round her for prayers and their good-night talk. This was the time when the little girls always confessed to any small sins during the day, and they talked them over seriously. Tonight, there was very little. Con informed her mother that she had stolen two spoonfuls of sugar when Tante Simone's back was turned, and Len had to confess to calling Sybil 'You pig!' which drew from Jo the remark that if she said such things again her mouth would be soaped out. Len looked very serious at this, but said no more, and it was Margot's turn.

'I stamped my foot at Sybs,' she said. 'An' - an' I called Auntie Mawie a howwid old fing 'cos she scolded 'bout the sugar.'

'Oh, Margot! That was very naughty. You must try to keep your temper, darling. Do you want to grieve the little Christ Child?'

'No, Mamma. But when vere's such lots an' lots of little girls an' boys can He hear just me?'

'Yes, my pet. He always knows when we do wrong because He is God. So we must try with all our might not to do things that will hurt Him. Now, Margot, you were rude to Auntie Marie as well. What must you do?'

Margot's small face went red. She was a proud little person who hated saying she was sorry, and her quick temper forced her to it a good many times in the week. But she knew there was no help for it. If she didn't do it, Mamma would - for her and in front of her, which would be worse.

'I'll tell Auntie I'm sowwy,' she said meekly.

Jo bent and kissed her. 'That's right, pet. And Len must not call names, either. And Con, if you don't leave the sugar alone, something very unpleasant will happen to you. And now, my darlings, kiss Mamma, amd then we'll have our prayers. Tomorrow is a new day, and we'll all try to keep it a good one.'

They clung round her a moment. Then they knelt down and said their prayers...

And Con, if you don't leave the sugar alone, something very unpleasant will happen to you.

(And as we got older it morphed into more sexualised stuff, like the fact that crossing your legs/behaving immodestly/using 'impure language' 'makes Our Lady blush'!)

Is this normal for the day and age or do you think she should have been allowed to go to Mass with the others, especially as Joey was always allowed to attend Mass as a child in Tirol?

Too bad the "sodger" had to spoil her opportunity to go on her own -- and plotwise I'd have thought that more excusable if Mrs. Hart's general nastiness were given as the reason, rather than dredging up the old "Praise to the face is an open disgrace" backstory. It seems rather nasty to Sybil, especially given that it would play against all the good a summer of feeling trusted and responsible has done for her.

Doesn't Joey say that she doesn't want Margot to have the struggle with her temper that Sybil is having? We also "see" Jack thinking the same thing.

The fact that Sybil is never allowed to forget what happened ... doesn't really fit in with the idea of forgiveness. No-one ever tells her to forgive herself.

young lady with a very big idea of herself and her own importance as the elder daughter of the Round House.

ETA There's a real contrast here to how Beth Chester's behaviour is potrayed in Janie Steps In. She feels pushed out by her younger sister's birth and illness but we're obviously intended to sympathise with Beth's point of view.

“Work harder this term, Sybs, and do have a better report than you had last.

“She belonged to the family before you were ever even thought of,” retorted her mother swiftly. “And must I ask you when I invite people here?”
Sybil subsided. When her mother spoke like this she always did. Not many months ago, her Aunt Jo had declared that she was becoming unbearable with her airs and graces, which had made Madge take more notice of her daughter. What she saw, she did not like, and the entire family was uniting in doing its best to cure Sybil.
[...] Madge Russell waved to them from the top of the hill where the Round House nestled among trees, and went back indoors, thinking very seriously of her elder daughter’s faults.

'She is only a cousin, but she acts as if she was my elder sister, and I hate it. And Mummy won’t see how unfair it is to me to let her and Peggy rule the place as they do in the hols. I wish Uncle and Auntie would come home and all those Bettanys go to their own house. Three’s quite a big enough family, I think.”

I still think three years old is terribly (and unrealistically) young to be given such a strong sense of their own capacity for sin, and the habit of daily confession.

To be honest, I've always put that down to EBD not really understanding young children

Wouldn't it have been just as appropriate, and more easily understood by the triplets aged three, for Joey to leave the Christ Child out of it for the moment

However, interestingly, as with much of EBDs writing, she seems to instinctively realize the fall-out from such strategies, as she goes on to produce some very believable behavioural traits/character development... I think EBDs gut feeling for these sort of things was spot on, and comes out in her writing/characterization, but her head was usually wide-off the mark. So when we get her authorial logic/opinions they seem a bit... odd.

Is it that she's a much better writer than she thinks she is, in some ways, or that she somehow doesn't like her own talent for writing rather darker and more ambivalent family environments than she clearly thinks are appropriate for the generally cosy, morally clearcut place she wants the CS series to be?

Madge being anxious to hand the Bettany children over in A1 condition

Following on from the last post the one I find hard to swallow is the 'makeover' of the Richardsons. Is there anything of themselves left by the Maynards have finished with them?

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:00 am ]
Post subject:	Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Sorry this is a few days late. RL has been crazy at the moment. Recue was published in 1945 and follows in the summer after Gay From China at the Chalet School. It is the first of the family holiday books, with the ‘quartet’ Joey, Simone, Marie and Frieda and their families staying in Many Bushes. While staying at Many Bushes, the four meet Phoebe Wychote for the first time. Phoebe had rheumatic fever as a child which has left her with chronic ill health. She is cared for by Debby. Phoebe has led a lonely life until she meets Joey, Simone, Marie and Frieda who take Phoebe under their collective wings, not only befriending her, but also ensuring she gets better medical attention at the San. While at the San, Phoebe is under the medical care of Dr Frank Peters, whom she later marries. It is in this book we first meet Reg Entwhistle, whom Joey and Jack Maynard help with his schooling so he is able to become a doctor. We also meet Zephyr Burthill, whom Joey helps by asking the Robin to befriend her As previously said by JB with Exile, we are following themes. The theme open for discussion with Rescue is the religious spirit shown in this book, namely helping thy neighbour or what Jesus said, “what you do for the least of my brethren, you do for me.” Did you like the religious element shown with Joey et al helping Phoebe did you think the friendship develop naturally and similiarly to how friendships do develop? What did you think of Joey asking the Robin to befriend Zephyr with the aim of making her a nicer girl? Do you think it was fair for either girl? What did you think of the Robin becoming friends with Zephyr? And finally what did you think of the Maynards taking Reg under his wing and also attempting to improve his character ie his chip on his shoulder/sulkiness? How did you like the first of the holiday books and the introduction of new characters or did you prefer to concentrate on the school? There was probably one other religious moment to touch on. Sybil as the only Protestant is sent to church on her own. Is this normal for the day and age or do you think she should have been allowed to go to Mass with the others, especially as Joey was always allowed to attend Mass as a child in Tirol? Please discuss this and anything else related to the theme you may think of.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I really like this book. It's lovely to see the four friends and their children on holiday together. It's good to see how well Jack gets on with Joey's friends too - not everyone gets on with their partner's friends! - and there's quite a sweet bit when Phoebe notices how happy Joey and Jack are together. It's very real - that lovely domesticity, but at the same time the worry about husbands who are away on active service and sadness that they are missing out on their children's early years. I find it a bit odd that Phoebe marries someone who was her doctor (and invites a load of CS people to the wedding!), but it's nice and fairy-tale-ish, and whereas Joey's butting-in gets very irritating in later books her obvious concern for Phoebe in this one and the way she asks Jack to try to help her are lovely. Joey's never quite as nice in any of the later books as she is in this one, IMHO. Richenda Fry was also sent to a Protestant service on her own, whilst staying with the Maynards, and that was in a foreign country where she barely spoke the language: I'd've hated that! I can't see that the Russells would have been that bothered about Sybil attending a Catholic service for once. The "helping your neighbour" thing works well as far as helping Phoebe's concerned, but I find the Zephyr storyline a bit irritating, and don't me going on the subject of some of Joey and Phoebe's remarks about Reg and his middle-class father and working-class mother and hereditary tendency to be a doctor! I find the Reg storyline a bit odd: it's very kind of Jack to offer to pay for a stranger's education/training, but he wasn't a multi-millionaire and would he really have done that? Isn't this the book with the weird comment about Len pronouncing her "r"s before Con and Margot because she's the eldest ? Not to mention Joey's comment about Hampshire making her feel tired . There are some interesting scenes with/about Margot and how Jack insists that she has to learn to overcome her temper. Reg gets similar lectures from Jack about needing to overcome his tendency to sulk, and both Margot (aged only 3) and Reg are told that they need divine assistance. It seems a bit much to say to a near-stranger (Reg), and Margot being told that when she was so young would certainly explain why she ended up getting so fixated on the idea of devils and guardian angels. Sorry for the essay - am procrastinating from going to bed!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I agree that this is a really nice book on the whole (though having come to it later on, it still doesn't interest me as much as the school books, certainly of the earlier years), and the domestic scenes are really heart-warming. In particular I love the interaction between Marie and Jack when she teases him about going bald. I think that the religious angle works really well because EBD never labels it as such, or at least not directly. Joey helps because she wants to and because that is what Joey does - I seem to recall one of the others wanting to know why they should help, which Joey doesn't even think about, she just does it. Personally, I also like them trying to help Reg. He's such a cross, lonely little boy - it often reads to me that his only friend is a woman much older than him who only likes him because she's lonely too - and thanks to them that really changes. I think that it is the sort of thing Jack and Joey would do, after all they only have the trips and Stephen at this stage, they couldn't possibly have foreseen the massive family to come! What gets me about this book is the scene with Jack and Margot - not for the same reasons as you, Alison, but because we're told that "Jo had generally contrived to keep Margot's sudden fits of rage from" Jack. It just makes me cross that his own children's problems are kept from him - in fact, it has to be pointed out to Jo that they are his children too and she can't keep this from him. It doesn't strike me as very responsible parenting to keep something of this magnitude (and I know, my little brother was exactly the same when it came to temper tantrums) from him.

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
ChubbyMonkey wrote: It just makes me cross that his own children's problems are kept from him - in fact, it has to be pointed out to Jo that they are his children too and she can't keep this from him. It doesn't strike me as very responsible parenting to keep something of this magnitude (and I know, my little brother was exactly the same when it came to temper tantrums) from him. I think to EBD young children were very much a women's domain, though. Jack is out working all day, and it's Joey's role to look after the kids; when he comes home he needs to relax and shouldn't be bothered with domestic problems. Remember that bot in one of the others books where Joey complains that Jack thinks that it's "women's intuition" that keeps her on top of her children's mischief? Clearly Jack doesn't have that much to do with the children. I never really thought about it before, but it is pretty strange that Sybil can't go to Mass! Perhaps it was her own choice, and not her parents'? Or maybe while Jem didn't have a problem with his sister-in-law going to any service she wished, he felt differently when it was his own children?

Author:	JB [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I enjoy this and all the holiday books. It’s good to see Joey and her friends together again, and I’m happy for a change of scene. It’s when we’re away from the school that we see Joey and Jack’s relationship at its best. I think the friendship between Joey and Phoebe is lovely and develops naturally. It develops quickly but I think that’s natural under the circumstances. I’d not thought of the religious element before last weekend’s reread and Ariel sums this up well for me: Quote: I think that the religious angle works really well because EBD never labels it as such, or at least not directly. Joey helps because she wants to and because that is what Joey does - I seem to recall one of the others wanting to know why they should help, which Joey doesn't even think about, she just does it. Compared to this, the overt religious comments do seem heavy-handed – Jack to Reg and Margot. If I’d been Robin, I don’t think I’d have been thrilled at leaving my friends to stay with strange girl for a week. That felt forced and I don’t think it added anything to the book. I’m surprised Zephyr let Joey boss her around so much as well. Re Sybil going along to a CofE service. I didn’t find that odd. We know that Madge was happy for Joey to go to Catholic services in Austria but wasn’t that often when there wasn’t a Protestant one? Here, Sybil only had to walk into the village and once the family get to know Debby, I think she goes with Sybil. And we don’t know Jem’s views on the subject. I like Reg (yes, I did really type that ) and EBD’s reference to his “knight errantry”. It’s understandable that he’s touchy about losing his friend and Joey is lovely when she insists on him seeing Phoebe before her when the visit the San. How on earth, though, could Jack afford to send him to public school? That’s an awfully big commitment to a boy you’ve just met. That kind of patronage seems to come from a much more old-fashioned book, not one from the 1940s. I’m not impressed by how Joey deals with Margot’s temper and that it’s accepted by the other triplets that this is something to be hidden from Jack. Even if Jack had little involvement with day to day childcare, surely Joey would have talked to him about something this big, which she’s struggling to deal with? As you say, Alison, it’s no wonder the poor child developed those ideas later. I find Joey really annoying when she’s wittering on about Madge letting herself down by giving birth to a girl. Joey says that if she’d been there, she’d have kept Madge up to her job, ie having a boy. Grrr.

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6824

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
JB wrote: I’m not impressed by how Joey deals with Margot’s temper and that it’s accepted by the other triplets that this is something to be hidden from Jack. Even if Jack had little involvement with day to day childcare, surely Joey would have talked to him about something this big, which she’s struggling to deal with? As you say, Alison, it’s no wonder the poor child developed those ideas later. That's what I was getting at, just not phrased so well! Even if he couldn't be involved in the day to day disciplining of the children, he had a right to know about this, it is his child struggling. I think maybe this helps to lead to his attitude later on about it all being down to Joey, too - he's been kept out deliberately before, so now he doesn't try and involve himself, because Joey evidently doesn't want him to. I don't see anything odd in them "adopting" Reg (to save my poor fingers having to type long sentences, which it now clearly hasn't). It strikes me as very similar to the Biddy situation - a child they've just met, but who is clearly earnest and truthful, in fact even more so because they can talk to friends and his guardians about it.

Author:	JB [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
You're right, Ariel. There are similarities with Biddy but her school fees wouldn't cost anything in the first instance and she didn't have anyone else. Reg is a boy who lives with his aunt, who doesn't approve of paying out money for education (and there are class issues too). She doesn't neglect him in other ways. A lot of people wouldn't have thanked outsiders for that kind of interference (or even family if you think about the Chesters in Janie Steps In) Joey and Jack barely know him and yet are prepared to commit themselves to years of school fees and presumably university if he doesn't win a scholarship (and they have no way of knowing if he'd be bright enough to do that). I'm assuming boarding schools fees weren't that different to today in terms of proportion to income.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I was just thinking of the expense. Biddy originally attended the village school, and even when she was at the CS the school doesn't seem to've been "full" as it was in the Swiss books so having one extra kid there didn't anything cost them anything: it wasn't as if she was taking up a place that a fee-paying pupil could have had. The cost of one kid's food when they were catering for large numbers anyway wouldn't have been that much, and neither would a couple of school uniforms. Madge and Jem do later say that they'll pay for her to go to Oxford if she doesn't get a scholarship, but there was no idea of that at first. Putting Reg through grammar school and then years of medical school, by contrast, would have cost a fortune. It's the sort of thing that a rich Victorian philanthropist might have done, but it was a huge commitment for a middle-class couple with four children of their own to take on, especially in the financial uncertainty of wartime. The others don't seem overly approving of the way Joey keeps Margot's "issues" from Jack. Doesn't Frieda say that she only wishes Bruno was around to help her with her two little boys?

Author:	Margaret [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I am another who loved this book. The thought of having three friends around when I had a load of small children would have been wonderful. However for me the part which simply did not work was the Zephyr storyline. Sending for Robin in the first place was high handed, but later she says 'Robin is either not friends at all or friends for keeps' or words to that effect, when Zephyr isn't sure that Robin will want to see her again. But surely no one can know if Robin is going to be a friend after a week of looking after Zephyr? The friendship is just so unlikely, anyway I can't honestly ever see it happening in the first place. Taking on Reg, and paying his fees at Public School was all part and parcel of the lovely warm feeling I always get when reading the CS books - they never have to stop and thing about whether they can afford to go to Penny Rest, for example, whereas most of us pause before going off for a short mid-winter break.

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I think you get two very different treatments of religion in Rescue. You get the 'good neighbour' stuff that sees Joey and co intervene in the lives of Phoebe, Zephyr and Reg Entwistle, which emerges from largely unspoken, but admirable, Christian assumptions about loving your neighbour as yourself etc. (Though with a fair dollop of class assumptions and patronage in Reg's case, I agree.) Then you get the more overt talk about God among the Quartette (which I find a bit sickly - it's not so terribly long since they were all 'jolly' schoolgirls who didn't talk about such things, thank heaven), and the way in which religion is integrated into the triplets' lives, which I also find problematic. I don't think it's appropriate for three-year-olds to be imprinted with such a strong sense of sin, and while I realise EBD thinks the whole 'confessing your little sins to Mother' at bedtime thing is charming, I find it fairly toxic. Quite apart from encouraging an unproductive sense of guilt and self-examination, pre-empting the role of the confessional (Catholicism doesn't consider that appropriate until a child is of First Communion age, and at least then you are confessing anonymously to someone who isn't in your family, and not on a daily basis), and giving an already powerful mother-figure an extra role as divine intermediary, more or less, it seems to be another way for Joey to 'contain' the children's misdeeds from Jack, who doesn't seem to oversee prayers ever, even when he's around. And I do think you can already see in the triplets' religious education Margot's later problems with personifying her own behavioural problems as a personal devil - which is a quite frightening thing to have come from the imagination of a small child! - and also maybe Len's over-responsibility. (Maybe also Joey's inability to not share other people's personal information later on? And also Jack having been kept in ignorance of some of his own children's problems might throw some light on his tendency to punish by avoidance or ignoring...? If Joey has never let him help when they were little, how is he supposed to be able to intervene productively as a parent when they're older?) IF EBD presented this stuff as just the way this particular family works, I'd have thought it just very good (potentially quite dark) writing about a particular family's internal religious functioning, and maybe an indirect insight into the way in which a passionate new convert (if we assume, as I tend to, that Joey has officially converted by now) goes a bit overboard with her own children by treating them as older than they are, by instilling this early sense of sin. (Joey's own religious upbringing was clearly nothing like this, even allowing for the differences between C of E and Catholic doctrine.) It's only the fact that EBD presents it as ideal that I find hard to deal with, because to me it's very clear to see the problems it creates. Sorry, end of essay!

Author:	JB [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
EBD does very much like the bedtime confessions. The Lucy children have the same routine in the La Rochelle books, although they're Protestant. They're also obedient children with that weird system of "forbids". Another aspect of religion seen in Rescue is the Sodger, the wife of the village vicar, who's shown to be lacking Christian virtues. Not only has she not offered to help Phoebe since Nicholas Wychcote's death, she wanted to speak to the visitors to warn them off being friendly with Phoebe. She's not popular within the parish and "manages" her husband. I find she's a one-dimensional, vicious portrait and I do wonder if she represents some issues which EBD had in real life after her conversion.

Author:	Margaret [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
One thing I do find difficult to believe - to go back to what sunglass was saying about bed-time confessionals - is that they never dodged confessing something. If they were so terrified of God that they had to confess every tiny sin, that is a very unhealthy attitude to God. If they did, then later in life their belief in a all-seeing God was undermined. My attitude to that is No!No!No! They are simply too young to really understand, and as Sunglass says it certainly explains the problems they have later with Margot's Devil and Len's guilt.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I think that it was a lovely thought, but that it should have been more a talk with Joey at bedtime - about good things as well as bad, rather than a confession. If, for example, Con had been able to say that she was presented with the opportunity and didn't take sugar (it is Con who does that, isn't it?) then there would be room for positive as well as negative. I do wonder if it is something to do with Joey having converted, though? Or not converted but (mistakenly?) believing that Jack will want his children brought up as strict Catholics which involves this sort of thing? After all, he probably wasn't there to ask in the beginning.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Joey's three closest friends were Catholic and so was Robin, and so was Anna for that matter, so she must have had a pretty good idea of how the average Catholic family worked, and there's never any suggestion that Marie or Frieda's children (Simone's Tessa would have been too young) had to go through this bedtime confession thing, but the Maynard family does seem to have a weird obsession with guilt, not so much from a religious viewpoint but more generally. From the little we're told, it seems that it was Rolf's doctor, rather than a family member, who told Lydia that she was to blame for her son's death (and he should have been struck off for speaking to a bereaved parent like that), but there's never any suggestion that Bob or Mr and Mrs Maynard senior contradicted what he said. No wonder Mollie emigrated to New Zealand! There are issues with religion and obedience in a lot of children's books, although most of them are earlier ones. In most books it seems to be found in Calvinist families - the Elsie books are the obvious example, and although Pa and Ma Ingalls in the Little House books are much-loved parents they are also very strict. Sorry, probably reading way too much into everything there!

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
JB wrote: EBD does very much like the bedtime confessions. The Lucy children have the same routine in the La Rochelle books, although they're Protestant. But at least one of the Lucy children has worked out a cunning method of using the bedtime confessions to his advantage, by realising that the system won't allow him to be punished if he 'confesses' to whatever the misdeed was during the bedtime prayer session! And Julie at least finds this amusing, which suggests maybe it isn't all taken as seriously in the Lucy household...? JB wrote: Another aspect of religion seen in Rescue is the Sodger, the wife of the village vicar, who's shown to be lacking Christian virtues. [...]I find she's a one-dimensional, vicious portrait and I do wonder if she represents some issues which EBD had in real life after her conversion. I agree entirely, and have often wondered what lay behind this caricature. Am I right in remembering that there's also an interfering, controlling vicar's wife in Jean of Storms, who is possibly going to forbid the local Guides the use of the parish hall...? Interesting that we never see the vicar, far less get any criticism of him, just his wife. Though it occurred to me that the 'Sodjer' - who notices the foreignness of three quarters of the Quartette, seems to be irritated that, as Catholics, none of the Many Bushes clan is in her remit, and remarks on the large number of children - might have been EBD's way of registering certain pervasive prejudices against Catholics - that they're 'controlled from abroad', not integrated into UK society because of it, and breed like rabbits. Also, of course, I suppose the vicar has to be weak and his wife unpleasant for the purposes of the plot, because otherwise they would be intervening helpfully in the lives of Phoebe and Reg, and there'd be no reason for Joey to but in!

Author:	JB [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Sunglass wrote: Quote: JB wrote: EBD does very much like the bedtime confessions. The Lucy children have the same routine in the La Rochelle books, although they're Protestant. But at least one of the Lucy children has worked out a cunning method of using the bedtime confessions to his advantage, by realising that the system won't allow him to be punished if he 'confesses' to whatever the misdeed was during the bedtime prayer session! And Julie at least finds this amusing, which suggests maybe it isn't all taken as seriously in the Lucy household...? That's true and when Janie goes away for a few days, she asks Nan to listen to the children's confession rather than their Nanny. She explains that although is a treasure is many ways, she has ideas on religion to which Janie doesn't want them exposed.

Author:	Tor [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Do people think that the helping of Phoebe/Reg needs to be read in a religious light, then? This didn't occur to me at all. Is it linked by EBD anywhere as being specifically related to Christian virtue (rather than just being a good person, regardless of belief..)? This would be a rather interesting insight to her motivations as a children's novelist, and an early preface of how the books came over all proselytizing towards the latter end of the series. I hate the daily confessions as an adult. As a child, I just slotted them into the same category of 'not letting the sun go down upon your anger' school of child-rearing. Interesting point, Alison, about the Maynard's as a whole having a rather strange attitude to guilt and culpability. Also Sunglass/JB, I think you probably have a point about this reflecting EBDs attitude as a convert-catholic. As Sunglass says, if it wasn't for the idealism of Joey as wife/mother/CS girl, this could be read as something very clever, subtle and dark. But I don't think EBD had that level of subtlety and understanding in her - I think she simply and honestly felt daily confessions were good for the soul! [and possibly had become more convinced of this since the La Rochelle version...? Or were these contemporaneous..? Poses some interesting Qs about EBDs religious development] edited: conversions to confessios... but who knows. maybe she thought that about conversions too!

Author:	JB [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Tor wrote: Quote: [and possibly had become more convinced of this since the La Rochelle version...? Or were these contemporaneous..? Poses some interesting Qs about EBDs religious development] Janie Steps In, the last La Rochelle title which includes the confessions was published in 1953 but was probably written earlier. Because of the way the characters are slotted into the Chalet books, it's assumed the book was written in the late 1930s or during the war (before Highland Twins because of Nan Blakeney's involvement). Jo to the Rescue was published in 1945, so the titles aren't contemporaneous, although the time difference isn't clear.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I don't think that actually helping Phoebe and Reg needs to be viewed in a religious light, any more than helping Biddy or Juliet or Claire does, but there's a much more religious theme to this book than there are in any of the previous ones. I really do find it very irritating that Jack gives Reg a long lecture about needing God to be his partner in life: I'm sure that Jack's religious convictions were entirely sincere, but he shouldn't have been pouring them down Reg's ear ... but in later books we see adults saying things like that to children all the time so EBD evidently thought it was a good thing to do. This is somewhat irrelevant, but the one time I can think of when we get a specific reference to religious matters in connection with helping people is in that horrible scene in Althea in which Hilda tells Joey that she should feel obliged to have Althea to stay as thanks for Phil's recovery for serious illness. I'm also sure that EBD just thought confession was good for the soul, etc, but I can imagine it being quite intimidating for a very young kid to feel that they had to confess every tiny little thing they'd done wrong during the day. The guilt complex I get any time I try to keep a food diary is bad enough!

Author:	JayB [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Quote: I really do find it very irritating that Jack gives Reg a long lecture about needing God to be his partner in life: I'm sure that Jack's religious convictions were entirely sincere, but he shouldn't have been pouring them down Reg's ear ... It's a very long time since I've read Rescue, so I don't remember the details, but I think Jack was way out of line there. He's not Reg's guardian or godfather, and not even the same denomination. Reg was presumably CofE (or if it's not stated, he might even have been Methodist). Also, Reg was old enough to decide for himself whether he wanted to practise any faith, and if he didn't, it's no-one else's business.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
As I've already said, I came to this only a few months ago, so I can't comment on whether I would have seen the religious angle as a child, but to me it read very much as a Christian duty, instead of just wanting to help them (though again, I'd read most of the later Swiss ones before this, which might have influenced it). So I would say that at the least religion was at the bottom of it even just for having shaped Jo's desire to help - though it isn't ever stated so explicitly, I don't think, so feel free to disagree with me!

Author:	sealpuppy [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I wonder if the Maynard emphasis on confession at bedtime could be influenced by the fact that Jack and Jo are both converts? And perhaps more conscious of their religion than they would have been if born to Catholicism. Jack has to have converted, there's no suggestion that Maynie is RC, and of course Joey does later. As for keeping the children's tantrums out of his way, I think the date is summer 1943 and Jack can only recently have recovered from his injuries while missing. That could explain Joey's strategy but it does seem to be an EBD standard, but with sugar rationed, Jo ought simply to have kept the bowl out of reach! And Reg, yes - unless the aunt was coerced into coughing up later, it was a big burden to take on. And again because of the RC thing, they'd expect to have dozens of children if they could, wouldn't they? I love Rescue, it was the first CS book I really took on board and the holiday atmosphere seems very authentic.

Author:	abbeybufo [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
sealpuppy wrote: I wonder if the Maynard emphasis on confession at bedtime could be influenced by the fact that Jack and Jo are both converts? And perhaps more conscious of their religion than they would have been if born to Catholicism. Jack has to have converted, there's no suggestion that Maynie is RC, and of course Joey does later. In one of the Newsletters where EBD answered readers questions, she says that Jack is a cradle Catholic and Joey had converted. [I don't have them to hand to know which one and what date, but someone's mentioned them on here before] This of course gives us another EBDism with Maynie being definitely stated to be Protestant in the early Tirol books - perhaps she converted the other way?

Author:	cestina [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I too love Rescue; it's one of my favourites because it echoes my own friendship with the three people I met in Dormitory 4 in 1953 which still continues today between the three of us who are left. I think perhaps some of the views expressed in this thread are being a bit harsh on Joey - don't forget that there has been a complete sea-change in how much fathers are now involved in bringing up their children and it would very much have been the case in those days in most families that it was mother's responsibility to see to the day-to-day rearing and father would only have been brought in as a court of last resort. I can well understand Joey not wanting to involve Jack unless she absolutely had to do so.

Author:	Tor [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Quote: This of course gives us another EBDism with Maynie being definitely stated to be Protestant in the early Tirol books - perhaps she converted the other way? maybe because she was sick of bedtime confessions...?! Seriously, I think it is more likely to be a reflection of the value EBD placed in confession, as part and parcel of her own conversion. Perhaps she found it a relief and a release, and didn't appreciate the potential dangers of instilling a youthful guilt complex. At all levels in the CS (and cross the school genre as a whole), confessing to a misdemeanor is absolutely the only moral way to behave. In fact, perhaps this is some weird blending of GO and catholic ideology to construct the correct blueprint for raising a Real Chalet School Girl...

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
abbeybufo wrote: This of course gives us another EBDism with Maynie being definitely stated to be Protestant in the early Tirol books - perhaps she converted the other way? Jack definitely attended the Protestant service in Rivals. Of course, he could just have been a very ecumenically-minded person who went to a Protestant service even though it would hardly have been difficult to find a Catholic service in Tyrol, but I would assume that EBD decided, after her own conversion, that she wanted Joey to marry a Catholic, and therefore conveniently forgot that Jack was originally a Protestant! After all, characters change their names and ages at random, so why not their religions too ?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
cestina wrote: I think perhaps some of the views expressed in this thread are being a bit harsh on Joey - don't forget that there has been a complete sea-change in how much fathers are now involved in bringing up their children and it would very much have been the case in those days in most families that it was mother's responsibility to see to the day-to-day rearing and father would only have been brought in as a court of last resort. Oh, I wouldn't dispute that at all - as we see in the Felix and Felicity scene, Joey is expected to keep control and only call Jack in to emphasise that you are now in Big Trouble. But the way the text reads, Jack had no idea at all of how bad Margot's tantrums had got, or of the general way in which her character was developing. He at least had the right for Joey to say to him "I'm having some problems with Margot - nothing that you really need to worry about, but..." a view which is kind of supported by EBD having the other three criticise Jo for not telling him.

Author:	Bethannie [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I love Jo to the Rescue! I wonder whether EBD had had a recent unhappy experience with a vicar's wife....I can just see her at her typewriter bashing away at the keys as she caricatures the woman as The Sodger! I actually find Jack's talk with Reg to be quite natural. He knows that Reg hasn't had much of a father figure in his young life, and is showing his willingness to take on that role however 'unofficially'....and talking about faith and God and the need for Him in your life would be part and parcel of that parental responsibility. For me, the most problematic portion of the book is that which deals with Zephyr. Zephyr never rings true as a character IMO. I feel that her nastier traits have been written purely to show a remarkable conversion when she meets Robin (will I be forever expelled from the CBB for admitting that sweet angelic too-good-to-live Robin leaves me feeling faintly nauseous and if ever a girl deserved to be shut away in a convent it was her!.....phew, I feel better for getting that off my chest!)....if she'd been introduced to the series a few years later, she'd probably have been a few years younger and we'd see her going to Millies for a year or two and turning out to be a thoroughly nice CS girl after making friends with Peggy...or Bride..or...Josette...or whichever of the Russel/Maynard/Bettany clan was there at the time!

Author:	Sunglass [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Bethannie wrote: I actually find Jack's talk with Reg to be quite natural. He knows that Reg hasn't had much of a father figure in his young life, and is showing his willingness to take on that role however 'unofficially'....and talking about faith and God and the need for Him in your life would be part and parcel of that parental responsibility. I think that I'd see as EBD's philosophy of 'helping' having quite a few corollaries and expectations attached to it, like the explicit expectation here that Reg will accept Jack's point of view as regards God because Jack is paying for his education. I don't for a minute want to suggest Jack is being anything other than very generous, by any standards (though I'd agree with other people up the thread that it's a curiously huge financial commitment from someone on active service in wartime with four small children and the expectation of more. It would have seemed much more reasonable for Jack to have managed to convince the aunt that Reg was academically talented and deserved to continue in education.) Maybe Jack (who, after all, only has very young children of his own and is new-ish to fatherhood) may have a slightly overweening idea of what you can reasonably expect from someone you commit to helping in this way. Reg has a guardian of his own, and is fourteen or so, not a small child, after all. Jack isn't taking on a blank slate, and he's not Reg's father - it isn't his place to urge a particular approach to religion, I don't think. He could reasonably expect Reg to work extremely hard at his school work to show his gratitude, but while Jack may himself feel that God needs praising on all such occasions, I think that it's up to Reg, really, whether he wants to direct his gratitude to Jack or God! You get a version of the same thing when Jane Carew's mother starts to look like she will recover, and even though she's still seriously ill on a distant continent, Joey is already badgering Jane about thanking God because it would be such bad manners not to! Bethannie wrote: For me, the most problematic portion of the book is that which deals with Zephyr. Zephyr never rings true as a character IMO. I feel that her nastier traits have been written purely to show a remarkable conversion when she meets Robin I feel so sorry for Robin, though I'm not generally a fan! So often we see even 'good' CS girls like Len or Bride dragging their feet about sheepdogging some new girl and saying they can't promise friendship or integration into their gang of friends, but here poor Robin is sent for and committed to an open-ended friendship with a spoilt, vacant heiress, which seems like an outrageous presumption from Joey!

Author:	JB [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Alison H wrote: Quote: I would assume that EBD decided, after her own conversion, that she wanted Joey to marry a Catholic, and therefore conveniently forgot that Jack was originally a Protestant! After all, characters change their names and ages at random, so why not their religions too ? I think this is what happened too. Earlier than the newsletters, in Highland Twins, Joey has Jack's rosary which he's used since childhood: Quote: Jo got off her sofa, and, swaying a little as she walked, for she was still very weak, she went to a beautiful prie-dieu standing in a corner of the room, and from it took a rosary of cornelian beads, with silver links. ‘Here is Jack’s rosary—the one he used until he went away. I gave him a new one then, and he left this with me. He used it every day from the time he was a boy at school. Take this, Fiona. ’

Author:	andi [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I don't think Jack's conversation with Reg is that odd, in the context. It's the 1940s, after all, when (as far as I can tell from Googling) it was the norm for people to go to church and profess some level of Christian belief. Reg is actually a member of the church choir, although I'm not sure Jack would have known that. Still, I would think at that time an adult talking to a child would probably assume that they went to church and believed in God. Given that and Jack's own strong faith, it's not such a strange thing for him to say.

Author:	Sugar [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Not really thought this out much so might come back to it as a general topic but part of me wants to defend EBD as a catholic (EBD the catholic I mean) writing about a RC family with tiny kids. I'm a RC (lapsed enough to be lying down mostly) and have been a primary school teacher. I was amazed on teaching prac in schools to find my Y1 class (5&6) could recite the hail mary word perfect before they could reliable count to 10! However, the kids knew that "fessing up" was a better option than being caught out having been "naughty" and I'd often moderate my reactions if they did confess, usually that they had stood on johhny's foot cos he was annoying their skipping game or taken 2 sweets out of the tin not one. I think Jos bedtime confession thing might have been a way of making the triplets aware of their conscience and also giving them an outlet for the things they did that they knew were wrong and might be niggling at them, in a safe space where no one would blow their heads and punish them. RC kids can get a very weird sense of their faith, from schools and from their parents. One of my Rainbows goes to SJV where I taught which as a Shrine to Our Lady in the playground (really odd but there u go - its an odd school) and she was telling me she goes to say goodnight to "mary our mother" after school. I tactfully pointed out it wasn't Niamhs mother but Jesus's and the RC churches..and she could do it in her head cos Mary would still here) Sorry gone off on a tangent but the point i was trying to make is School and Some Families lay the religion on heavy on tiny dots and i agree the Maynards are pretty good with the guilt but I don't think the bedtime thing is too weird if it's a gentle little chat... are we ever given a session verbatim or the specif set up?

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
I'm Catholic too, and I recognise that certainly Catholics of my generation and older were expected to take their faith seriously at a young age - you're already treated as a moral being at First Communion age - but I still think three years old is terribly (and unrealistically) young to be given such a strong sense of their own capacity for sin, and the habit of daily confession. (I don't count knowing prayers etc as harmful.) For one thing, I simply don't really believe the average tired, pre-bedtime three-year-old would remember in detail what she had done that morning, far less remember specific wrongdoings! (And I agree with whoever said up the thread that it was odd a sweet-toothed child had access to an unsupervised sugarbowl in the middle of rationing, anyway! Wouldn't sugar have been carefully locked away and used only sparingly?) I probably wouldn't have taken any notice if the triplets were six or so, but by First Communion age, of course, they would actually be attending confession anyway, so Joey's nightly confession wouldn't have had the same role. Which makes me wonder, given that the nightly confessions continued, how they would have related to the actual sacrament? Did the local priest get a rehashed weekly version of what they would have told Joey at night? Which confession felt like the real one? Surely Joey didn't issue penances?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books-Religious Spirit- Jo to the Rescue
Sugar wrote: ...but I don't think the bedtime thing is too weird if it's a gentle little chat... are we ever given a session verbatim or the specif set up? From 'Rescue': Quote: She went out and Jo, sitting down again at the window, collected her daughters round her for prayers and their good-night talk. This was the time when the little girls always confessed to any small sins during the day, and they talked them over seriously. Tonight, there was very little. Con informed her mother that she had stolen two spoonfuls of sugar when Tante Simone's back was turned, and Len had to confess to calling Sybil 'You pig!' which drew from Jo the remark that if she said such things again her mouth would be soaped out. Len looked very serious at this, but said no more, and it was Margot's turn. 'I stamped my foot at Sybs,' she said. 'An' - an' I called Auntie Mawie a howwid old fing 'cos she scolded 'bout the sugar.' 'Oh, Margot! That was very naughty. You must try to keep your temper, darling. Do you want to grieve the little Christ Child?' 'No, Mamma. But when vere's such lots an' lots of little girls an' boys can He hear just me?' 'Yes, my pet. He always knows when we do wrong because He is God. So we must try with all our might not to do things that will hurt Him. Now, Margot, you were rude to Auntie Marie as well. What must you do?' Margot's small face went red. She was a proud little person who hated saying she was sorry, and her quick temper forced her to it a good many times in the week. But she knew there was no help for it. If she didn't do it, Mamma would - for her and in front of her, which would be worse. 'I'll tell Auntie I'm sowwy,' she said meekly. Jo bent and kissed her. 'That's right, pet. And Len must not call names, either. And Con, if you don't leave the sugar alone, something very unpleasant will happen to you. And now, my darlings, kiss Mamma, amd then we'll have our prayers. Tomorrow is a new day, and we'll all try to keep it a good one.' They clung round her a moment. Then they knelt down and said their prayers... EBD's italics. Sorry it's so long!