The CBB :: View topic - Religious Spirit- Head Girl

"Jem has had to go off to Vienna again, so I said I'd rather come here till he comes back. They are full of a new cure for tuberculosis there, and they asked him to attend a meeting of specialists to discuss this thing. I don't know what it is, but it's likely to prove important, and they think it may mean that they can stamp out the disease. I'm sure I hope they will."
Jo nodded wisely. "You see a good deal of it up there, don't you, even though you are out of the village? I know it always makes me feel a pig to he so well when I see those poor things up there so jolly brave and plucky!"
Madge smiled at the dear, quaint face with its troubled look and said, "You mustn't think about it Joey. Remember that many of those who come are more or less cured, anyway. And many who have to live there are pretty well. '

At the time I read it I would have been about the same age as the Robin was and I accepted the explanation so I think she would have done. Especially unlike me as she would have been brought up thinking about going to heaven and had already dealt with one major death in her life - her mother when she was six.

'one of those happy children who seem to pick up knowledge as they live

I, too, love this book, but it always bugs me that nobody appears to have taught the Robin that she mustn't go off with people she doesn't know - I'm sure children were taught about "stranger danger" back then!

Mind you, this is also the book (I think it's cut from the paperback) where Madge comes to put Robin to bed, and Robin, we're specifically told, just 'stands still' while her clothes are taken off and her dressing gown put on by Madge. That's pretty infantilising for an eight-year-old, and makes me think it's another instance of EBD not having much of a grasp of what kids are like at particular stages.

It's an interesting parallel to put her alongside Robin - as you say, in different ways, they've both had their needs catered to all their lives - but wouldn't EBD be horrified at the suggestion that the character she intends as adorable perfect 'baby', beloved by all and utterly angelic, has been in a sense damaged by all the fussing and babying and love, which has made her (arguably, anyway) passive and babyish for her age?

...isn't it slightly odd that Grizel and Joey repeat it to comfort one another in the salt caves?

Has "Head Girl" been published in GGB edition yet? I know I missed some of the early editions before I found them.

Aside from not knowing what's happened to Cornelia, they do have to deal with the death of the Madman (sorry, it's been a while since I read it) and even for someone that they didn't really know in that proximity it must have been difficult.

When they had finished, Grizel put her arm round Jo, and held her close.
"I've tried!" she said. "You'll tell Madame, Joey."
"Yes," said Jo, "but I don't think there'll be any need, Grizel."
A long silence followed. Then Jo suddenly turned towards the elder girl. "Death - is just falling asleep to wake with God," she said softly.
"I know, Joey. It's just the memory of Madame's words that is helping me now."
Then they turned and faced what might be coming, calm with that thought.

It's the first time I found a bit random when I was re-reading, because there's no immediate danger to either of them (apart from the worry for Cornelia) and they've got Friedel giving sensible orders, a search party on the way, and torches and string to get them back out of the caves, yet Grizel at least is behaving as though she may be going to die, and as if Joey is going to have to report her last words to Madge!

The madman story is completely plausible - strange men hanging around to lure girls away have always existed ...
Although this storyline is realistic I find it rather a surprising one for EBD ... I'm aware of the possible more sinister aspects of the madman's intentions and EBD always shies away from the more gritty realism.

To go back to the theme of religious spirit and death as falling asleep to wake with God - isn't it slightly odd that Grizel and Joey repeat it to comfort one another in the salt caves? They're not in any particular danger, far less plausibly in danger of death, even if they're worried for Cornelia - there's only one elderly madman, they have tough manly Friedel ahead of them and a search party coming behind. It would make more 'sense' for Cornelia to find it comforting (if she'd been around for Madge saying it, I mean), as she's the only one potentially in danger. Mind you, in fairness to the 'madman', he doesn't harm either Robin or Cornelia, only bores on about fairies and sings tunelessly, and the only evidence we have for his 'insane strength' is Grizel and Joey's frightened imaginations...

Interesting that, like the dying patient at the San who has the last sacraments and is 'prepared' for death, Herr Arnolfini recovers his wits at the end and gets a 'Christian' end in the sense that Friedel prays over him.

On a totally different note, and just to play Devil's Advocate, does anyone think that Deira - like Margot Maynard later on - got away very lightly with an act that could potentially have killed someone?

" the Spanish blood in her coming out."

Mind you, there are odd things about the way in which Deira is written in this book, anyway. If, as we're told in a later book, Deira is later presented at Court, then she's almost certainly Anglo-Irish, and so wouldn't have the accent or sentiments about Cromwell or English tyranny she's presented as having in the confrontation with Miss Maynard.

Someone was saying further up the thread how there are quite Gothic elements in Head Girl, with Joey's dark folktales about the lake etc and the madman trying to take away girls to see the fairies, and sometimes Deira sounds a bit Gothic villain-ish too, when she hisses things like 'I'm not going to put my beck under your heel!' at Grizel!

D'you think EBD was reading some Emily Bronte or the like at the time? ... Princes was a bit out of kilter too - perhaps that one's due to the Prisoner of Zenda?

I thought she'd been reading Little Women - the bit about Deira burning Grizel's harmony book is a direct copy of Amy burning Jo's manuscript

So the best wedding present Marie could possibly be given is a photo of a bunch of schoolgirls she cooked and cleaned for three years for, and that she's thrilled because her adored Madge has a similar one and she thinks the photo is so special she's hung it in her kitchen and keeps flowers on a table underneath, as if it's a holy picture!

Hi everyone. This is my first post!
Perhaps Miss Carthew's words to Grizel about marriage being part of God's plan for women add to the religious spirit in Headgirl. Part of the staffs role to guide the pupils spiritually and morally?

She changed the subject after that. It was one rarely touched on at the Chalet School, although, in the very nature of things, the majority of these girls must go home to wed. Gisela and Wanda were going this term. Probably it would not be long before others followed their example. Grizel would be far more alone presently than she had ever been before...

The only two bits of "career advice" I can remember any of the girls being given in the whole series are Miss Carthew, who is engaged herself and possibly a bit dewy-eyed about the idea of marriage, going on at Grizel about how wonderful marriage is and how happy Madge is with Jem, and, 20 years later, Hilda telling Len that marriage is about deciding whether you can put up with making a man's breakfast and washing his smelly socks for the rest of your life. Interesting contrast - I'm not sure how much of it is down to a generation gap, how much of it is down to the different experiences of the mistresses of the time and how much of it is due to the fact that Len's thinking seriously about marriage and Grizel saying that she can't imagine ever marrying.

How old is Nancy Wilmot by the end of the series? Are we supposed to think she's not going to marry, and will go on and take over from Hilda?

I was reading HG last night, and there was a quote about the protestant girls having Sunday service in a classroom - might that not have been a little informal?

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:35 am ]
Post subject:	Religious Spirit- Head Girl
My apologies for being so late with this but have been having problems accessing my computer and internet until this morning, where it's back working again Head Girl of the Chalet School was first published in 1928 and was republished in hardback ten times and in paperback sixteen times. It was the fourth book EBD had published and the only on published for the year. It is also one of the most popular books to find as it had been republished so many times in both the complete version and in the abridged paperback version. Head Girl is one of the more heavily edited of EBD’s books. The story begins in England while Joey, Grizel and Robin are holidaying with Miss Maynard. Grizel has been told she will be the Head Girl during the rest of the school year as Bette Ricini has left school at the end of the Christmas term. Grizel is unsure of how she truly feels about becoming Head Girl. Grizel almost loses her position before she even returns to school by leaving Miss Maynard’s care to see the Rhine Falls. It is by the grace of Madge and Mademoiselle and Grizel’s obvious remorse, which gives Grizel a second chance. Grizel starts the school year determined to prove Madge’s belief in her. She almost immediately becomes embroiled in an argument with Deira O’Hagan over duties which culminates in Deira burning Grizel’s Harmony book and her Granny’s last letter which was inside the book. Deira is unable to apologise for the incident, until accident occurs where Grizel is nearly killed by a rock being thrown at her. Grizel and Deira resolve their issues and things move along more smoothly. Robin is kidnapped by a madman who offers to take her to see fairies and whom is rescued by Grizel, Joey and Rufus. The school holidays arrive after the first school sale and Joey, Grizel and Robin are shown the very first free bed in the San the school supports. The three have an eventful holiday with Evadne Lannis culminating in a fire at the Hotel where they are staying and running into Frau Berlin. The next term sees the arrival of Cornelia who has a rocky start at the school and is soon at loggerheads with everyone including Frieda who loses her temper with her (the only time in the entire series). Wanda, Gisela and Bernhilda return to visit and we meet Friedel Von Gluck, Wanda’s fiancé. Friedel mentions some salt caves which the girls dream of finding in order to help the local people. Cornelia decides to find the first as a way of punishing the school and to ask her Father to remove her from the school as soon as possible. She makes her escape and Grizel, Joey and Friedel go in search of her. It turns out she has bumped into the madman who is determined Cornelia should be the Queen of the fairies. Cornelia tries to escape and is injured and found by the other three. From then on Cornelia becomes a true Chalet Girl. We also see other wonderful scenes/chapters such as Marie and Anderas’s Austrian wedding and Madge’s first baby being born: David James Russell. So what did people think of the book? The main theme we will be focusing on is the religious spirit. There are two main examples of this. The first is Madge’s explanation of death, which is falling asleep and waking up in the presence of God. It is a sentiment that greatly comforts both Joey and Grizel when they are rescuing Cornelia from the madman. What do people think of this simple statement? Did anyone else find it a comforting thought in how to explain death especially when explaining it to children or even for themselves? Do people feel that EBD handled the death scenes and explanations of death well? The second example of religious spirit is one of repentance and forgiveness which we see continuously throughout the book. We see Madge showing Grizel justice with mercy by giving her another chance; Grizel showing generous forgiveness of Deira over her burnt letter despite Deira refusing to repent straight away; we see Cornelia repentance and change in behaviour after her running away and being kidnapped by the madman. Do people find these episodes believable or realistic? Do you like how EBD handled them, where you have some characters taking their time to repent and changing more slowly than in a term? Please discuss this and any other points I haven’t raised that you believe is pertinent to the theme of religious spirit

Author:	tiffinata [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I am not a religious person, but I have used a similar line to 'falling asleep to wake with God' when trying to explain the death of our cat to a nearly 3 year old.(falling asleep in the ground). Obviously the line stuck when I read it however many decades ago!

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I think "religious spirit" is handled beautifully in this book, far better than they are in the later books (especially Trials which winds me up no end!). It's never easy trying to explain death to younger people who are looking to you for comfort, especially as we can't really understand it ourselves, and Madge's words are lovely. I love Marie and Andreas's wedding: it's one of my favourite parts of the whole series. I can't see how they could've afforded to invite the whole school, LOL, but I understand that EBD had to have Jo and the others there so that she could describe it. Although I think a framed photo of all the girls was a rather naff present and I'm sure Marie was only being polite when she went into raptures about it . & there's a nice section - sadly cut out of the hb - in which Jem says how glad he is that Marie and Andreas have got together and how he thinks they'll be happy together, which I really like. I find the "madman" sections a bit odd, but that's probably because it's not something someone would write now. I really wish we'd heard more about the salt caves later on: they seem to be forgotten about. I'm glad Grizel was allowed to be HG despite her behaviour early on - although it's very unfair that Anne Seymour is stopped from being HG over something much less serious - and so glad that she did a good job. I'd've been devastated to have lost a memento of one of my grandparents and I think Grizel showed great maturity in forgiving Deira for both that and for the snowball incident. There's a lovely family/community feel to all of this book. We see the arrival of David and everyone being excited about it, and we see the CS really being part of the community with everyone going to Marie and Andreas's wedding, and other members of the Pfeifen family being involved, and the Brauns as well; plus we get Wanda's fiancé helping to find Cornelia, the girls raising money for the San (although I think having "The Chalet School Bed", which sounds a bit like "This bed is sponsored by the Chalet School", over it was a bit OTT!), Miss Maynard taking 3 of the girls to her home over Christmas and Grizel having a talk with Miss Carthew about her future. I could throttle Armada for cutting it so badly, though! I never really liked it in the pb, but the uncut version's a totally different book.

Author:	lexyjune [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I only recently read the hb version and was shocked by how much I had missed in the pb. I always liked this book and Madge describing death as falling asleep to wake with God has stayed with me for over 30 years!. I think the Religious Spirit is well done in Head Girl. Not over done but there in the background. I too have always enjoyed the wedding scene.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I've only ever read the pb, so I don't know the whole book, but it's always been one of my favourites, despite getting it after many of the others. The comment about death is one of my favourite ever; so comforting, even now, and so tactfully handled as well, IMHO. Plus I think that gentle, kind, understanding Madge is exactly the right character to deliver it, because she doesn't sound overly pious or righteousness. Grizel's forgiveness is wonderful - and wonderfully done! It doesn't feel like EBD had to force forgiveness to move the storyline along, it feels natural. I would have been devastated to lose something so precious (though why on earth was she keeping her letter there?) but at the same time it shows that Grizel has learnt from her earlier forgiveness.

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Religious Spirit- Head Girl http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7242

Author:	Abi [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I agree that Grizel's forgiveness of Deira is beautifully handled. It doesn't come across as easy or pious, but as a difficult but deliberate effort on the part of someone who doesn't find that sort of behaviour easy. And it does very much demonstrate her growing maturity and the fact that Madge did the right thing in allowing her to become Head Girl. I think it's one of the best bits of writing in the series.

Author:	mohini [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I like this book and was astounded to read just now that it was cut in PB. This is soooooooo unfair! I like the description of going to sleep and waking up with God.It can be used by any religion. A very nice thought. I always found all the books religious. Though forgiveness and change of heart occurs regularly in CS, I wonder how much of it is true in real life? I love the wedding scene. it is beautifully portrayed.

Author:	Tor [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I haven't re-read this all the way through to the end yet (I've reached the point whee Grizel forgives Deira), but I take issue with the fact that the 'repentacne and forgiveness' aspects of the story so far have anything to do wit hreligion or religious spirit at all. God hasn't been mentioned once - there was a fleetin mention of the 'devil of pride' (HB, p121) in respect to Deira's behavour , and Mademoiselle has mentioned the saints when saying goodnight to Madge, but both of these are very much colloquialisms and in character. Madge's forgiveness of Grizel, and Grizel's forgiveness of Deira owe more to GO codes of conduct and general decentness than religion or belief. That is why, I think, people are saying the religiois aspect is well handled... because it isn't handled at all. Can someone point to what it is in the latter part of the book that has made them cast these earlier episodes as showing religious spirit? Does Madge say something to Cornelia that throws a whole new, non-secular light on the matter? I know we know that religion was important to EBD, and that repentance and forgiveness have a particular role in Catholicism (which she converted too), but I'd also like to point out that these are fundamental human traits, common to many (?all) religions but that aren't purely the province of religion, and shouldn't be claimed as such without evidence that EBD was approaching them in such a way. It is interesting to me that people see it in that light. Is it because of the tenor of the series as a whole? Or is it because of personal beliefs (both?). Do people think that EBD saw these acts of forgiveness in a religious light? I would say that she probably didn't, any more that just vaguely feeling that living a good life, and being a good person, would make God happy. They are written so very differently to the heavy handed religion in the later books that I just think she must have been in a very different place herself when she wrote them.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I don't think the forgiveness aspect of this is about religion at all: I personally just meant that religious spirit was handled well with regard to the "death is falling asleep to wake with God" bit. Grizel is in fact one of the few main characters whom we never see talking much about religion at all. There certainly isn't the idea in the early books that organised religion infiltrates everything, I agree, which is one reason why I prefer the early books. For example, Joey is bullied into having Althea to stay by way of a speech about how she owes it as some sort of thanksgiving for Phil getting better, whereas Madge taking on responsibility for Juliet is just presented as Madge being a decent person who wouldn't dream of seeing a young girl thrown out on to the streets on her own.

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I'd agree that the forgiveness aspect of the novel isn't handled in a way that has anything at all to do with organised religion. Madge is being an understanding mother-figure (in contrast to awful Mrs Cochrane) when she gives Grizel a second chance, and Joey is being sporting rather than saintly when she tries to take some of the blame for Grizel running off to see the falls. And the promise that Grizel won't run off again is on her honour as a Guide, and she also tells Madge she has tried with Deira 'on my honour as a Guide'. I think it's mostly notions of schoolgirl/Guide honour and decency that are at play in the whole Deira/Grizel feud -- like when Grizel tells Deira that she can neglect her duties as Hobbies pree if she likes, but that she'll be seen as 'rotten' by her peers if she does. I do think the same situation would have been handled religiously if it took place in the Swiss books - Miss Annersley would have taken a more explicitly Christian approach to Deira, I imagine. I personally don't much care for Madge's explanation of death as falling asleep, especially to a child as young as the Robin, who might be worried by it while going to sleep -- too much experience of trying to deal with my imaginative godson's worry about that kind of well-meaning 'explanation'! -- but I do think it's contextualised much better in the unabridged version of the novel, where we get to see more of the impact of proximity to the San on Madge and Joey: Quote: "Jem has had to go off to Vienna again, so I said I'd rather come here till he comes back. They are full of a new cure for tuberculosis there, and they asked him to attend a meeting of specialists to discuss this thing. I don't know what it is, but it's likely to prove important, and they think it may mean that they can stamp out the disease. I'm sure I hope they will." Jo nodded wisely. "You see a good deal of it up there, don't you, even though you are out of the village? I know it always makes me feel a pig to he so well when I see those poor things up there so jolly brave and plucky!" Madge smiled at the dear, quaint face with its troubled look and said, "You mustn't think about it Joey. Remember that many of those who come are more or less cured, anyway. And many who have to live there are pretty well. ' That to me gives a much more understandable background to what looks in the paperback like a sudden interest in one particular anonymous patient. It makes you think also that Madge and Jem are only married a few months, so Madge is still adjusting to living in the shadow of illness and death, and having to come up with explanations of difficult events for the girls. Although I do still find the explanation that the dying San patient is glad to die because he 'has nothing to live for' problematic, in the same way I do with the driver of the car in Two Sams - but I don't think that's strictly a religious issue.

Author:	trig [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
This is one of EBD's best books IMO - lots of strong characters and plots, and the whole forgiveness thing tying it all together, which I hadn't seen before! I'm also of the opinion that the forgiveness issue isn't religious - more of a sporting/ decency thing. It can be argued that Grizel makes a better HG than other more saintly figures because she has her own faults. Her dealing of the Deira situation is excellent in part due to her realisation of what her own temper has done. I remember a bit in Eustacia when Deira herself suggests that Eustacia has acted on impulse out of temper (just like she did) but this suggestion is dismissed, a pity in my eyes. I've only recently got the HB and was amazed at the scale of the cuts - whole chapters and plot lines are missing, and lots of the small details which are part of the spirit of the series. As a small child - this was my second book aged 8 - I was rather scared of the falling asleep bit, but then I never liked the prayer we said at the end of afternoon school either which was similar. It had the line "if I should die before I wake" and I can't recall the rest because that bit used to frighten me! Other than my personal feeling though, I think EBD and Madge deal with the issue well here. It's put across simply and without the absolutism that colours the later books (ie this is what I believe in rather than this is what you ought to believe). I don't use that analogy myself - whenever a hamster dies I explain about the cycling of atoms etc to my kids - but it's comforting and non-confrontational.

Author:	ammonite [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
This is one of my least favourite books. I think because the plot line of madmen running of with the girls and I get annoyed with Grizel going off to the Falls at the start. After reading these comments this maybe because I have only ever read the abridged version. However, I do think the explanation of death was good. At the time I read it I would have been about the same age as the Robin was and I accepted the explanation so I think she would have done. Especially unlike me as she would have been brought up thinking about going to heaven and had already dealt with one major death in her life - her mother when she was six.

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
ammonite wrote: At the time I read it I would have been about the same age as the Robin was and I accepted the explanation so I think she would have done. Especially unlike me as she would have been brought up thinking about going to heaven and had already dealt with one major death in her life - her mother when she was six. Actually, Robin, come to think of it, is the only one of the girls who doesn't appear to need any explanation of the death, or to be alarmed by it. When Jem says his patient can't last more than a few hours, Robin asks her father whether someone is going to Paradise, and says if he's sick, then he must be glad to go. Not entirely sure I buy the last bit - it's a bit party political broadcast on behalf of EBD's ideas about people who have nothing to live for - but it's only Grizel and Joey who are upset. Just adding my voice to those who say the unabridged version is both completely unrecognisable compared to the cut version and very, very much better! There are so many interesting tiny details missing from the short version, like the fact that the Sonnalpe seems to have unpaved roads, and the fact that Madge 'dreams happily of her absent husband' when she's down at the school' (bless!) to the fact that the Robin, to add to her other virtues of angelic goodness and beauty is, despite the fact her lesson hours are restricted, Quote: 'one of those happy children who seem to pick up knowledge as they live .

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I, too, love this book, but it always bugs me that nobody appears to have taught the Robin that she mustn't go off with people she doesn't know - I'm sure children were taught about "stranger danger" back then!

Author:	hac61 [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Has "Head Girl" been published in GGB edition yet? I know I missed some of the early editions before I found them.

Author:	Mel [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I find this book a very satisfying read, especially the hb which is thick and covers two terms. The early books are packed with incident, except for Princess, which is driven by Elisaveta's story. I found the madman story quite plausible for the 20s/30s setting and agreeably scary. I too found Grizel's bolt for the Falls rather childish for an 18 year old. In this the Robin is not considered particularly fragile to be whisked off by Mr Flower for a holiday in Saltzburg. Imagine only a year later she is hardly allowed down to the Tiernsee. The religious question seems to be part of their lives, as it should be ie Christian in thought and deed rather than plastered on later that happens in other GO books and in the Swiss books.

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Mrs Redboots wrote: I, too, love this book, but it always bugs me that nobody appears to have taught the Robin that she mustn't go off with people she doesn't know - I'm sure children were taught about "stranger danger" back then! This always strikes me too! And I wonder whether it's the flipside of Robin having 'only been surrounded by love and petting' her whole life, and having been 'trained to instant obedience ' - she's never grasped that not all adults are lovely and should be obeyed on the word, especially not eccentrically-dressed madmen who offer to show you where the fairies live. Mind you, this is also the book (I think it's cut from the paperback) where Madge comes to put Robin to bed, and Robin, we're specifically told, just 'stands still' while her clothes are taken off and her dressing gown put on by Madge. That's pretty infantilising for an eight-year-old, and makes me think it's another instance of EBD not having much of a grasp of what kids are like at particular stages. To go back to the theme of religious spirit and death as falling asleep to wake with God - isn't it slightly odd that Grizel and Joey repeat it to comfort one another in the salt caves? They're not in any particular danger, far less plausibly in danger of death, even if they're worried for Cornelia - there's only one elderly madman, they have tough manly Friedel ahead of them and a search party coming behind. It would make more 'sense' for Cornelia to find it comforting (if she'd been around for Madge saying it, I mean), as she's the only one potentially in danger. Mind you, in fairness to the 'madman', he doesn't harm either Robin or Cornelia, only bores on about fairies and sings tunelessly, and the only evidence we have for his 'insane strength' is Grizel and Joey's frightened imaginations... Interesting that, like the dying patient at the San who has the last sacraments and is 'prepared' for death, Herr Arnolfini recovers his wits at the end and gets a 'Christian' end in the sense that Friedel prays over him.

Author:	Llywela [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: Mind you, this is also the book (I think it's cut from the paperback) where Madge comes to put Robin to bed, and Robin, we're specifically told, just 'stands still' while her clothes are taken off and her dressing gown put on by Madge. That's pretty infantilising for an eight-year-old, and makes me think it's another instance of EBD not having much of a grasp of what kids are like at particular stages. I'm not so sure. I mean, I agree that EBD has very little idea of the developmental stages of early childhood, but the Robin's passivity isn't unique. Think of young Mary Lennox in The Secret Garden, who is shocked at the notion of having to dress herself, because she never has - and because she never has (and isn't the personality-type to muddle through it and teach herself, instead resenting yet another change in her circumstances), she has no idea where to begin. Robin, I would say, could fit into a similar mould - this is a child who has never been expected to learn to do such things for herself, because she has always been babied, has always had other people fussing around doing things for her. She is an extremely placid child who accepts her situation and limitations completely, rather than railing against them. A different personality would fight for independence, would automatically try to do new things for herself in order to learn...but Robin isn't that type. She is expected to remain passive and let others take care of her, so she does - and no doubt enjoys the attention and mothering.

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Actually, I was thinking of Mary Lennox expecting Martha to dress her as I was writing! But surely what Frances Hodgson Burnett is implying when she has Mary hold out her foot for her shoes is what a spoilt little horror she is (and at the same time how neglected), from a life that was full of fawning Raj servants, and no parental attention...? It's an interesting parallel to put her alongside Robin - as you say, in different ways, they've both had their needs catered to all their lives - but wouldn't EBD be horrified at the suggestion that the character she intends as adorable perfect 'baby', beloved by all and utterly angelic, has been in a sense damaged by all the fussing and babying and love, which has made her (arguably, anyway) passive and babyish for her age? Which I suppose comes back in a sense to her toddling off with the madman, because she's not used to having to think or decide what to do when an adult proposes something - because she's only ever been showered with love and taught to obey on the word...? It's true, I do think EBD sometimes protests too much when she insists that Robin is magically unspoiled, despite all the adoration she gets - it makes me wonder if she found her own character's angelic nature a bit implausible!

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
It does seem a bit weird. Sybil goes mad when Rix says she's "only a baby" - and she must've been 3 or 4 at the time, so younger than Robin was even in Jo of - and we're told that Amy Stevens will be delighted when Robin arrives because it means she won't be the youngest any more, and both those reactions sound completely natural to me. When Amy is first at the school, someone else has to bathe her, and the other girls seem to regard this as rather silly and annoying and talk about "what a perfect baby she is", but with Robin it seems to be regarded as a positive thing that she's babied so much. I know she's supposed to be "delicate", but most of the time there's nothing wrong with her. Barbara Chester is the only other person I can think of who's "babied" so much, and in her case it again seems to be regarded as a negative thing: her sisters and cousins seem pretty scornful of her. That's rather unfair, seeing as it wasn't her fault that her mother was so over-protective of her, but it's a much more natural reaction from other children than the way people react towards Robin.

Author:	Llywela [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: It's an interesting parallel to put her alongside Robin - as you say, in different ways, they've both had their needs catered to all their lives - but wouldn't EBD be horrified at the suggestion that the character she intends as adorable perfect 'baby', beloved by all and utterly angelic, has been in a sense damaged by all the fussing and babying and love, which has made her (arguably, anyway) passive and babyish for her age? nods It's how Robin comes across, certainly. It's all a little entangled because it isn't until later that her extreme delicacy starts to be emphasised, but it's often the case with children that have something wrong with them, they go one of two ways: they either fight tooth and nail, translating their fight for health into life in general (that's how I'd read Jo herself, as she is described in the earliest books, School At especially) or they withdraw. The very young Robin seems to fall into the latter category. It's a survival strategy, of sorts. And although I've never known an 8-year-old quite as passive as Robin, I've known a few that had been babied quite a bit and enjoyed it enough to play up to it in hopes of more! It isn't hard to see how a child in Robin's situation could be that passive. It just does make for a fair amount of unintentioned internal conflict where EBD's ethos and actual writing are concerned!

Author:	Samantha [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I'm not sure about a couple of comments above. (can't quote, sorry). Re the photo of the girls, I don't think it's as naff as all that. We had an adorable nanny for nearly 3 years and when she left we gave her (in addition to a nice bonus) a really good photo of our daughter - and she wept all over it! She really did want one..... Maybe Marie was that close to the school? Re the Robin standing to be undressed - my daughter (just will do that if she's tired, or feeling pathetic, or just wants to be babied a bit and have some cuddling. Although most of the time my daughter would run a mile from it. Maybe this was a one-off for Robin?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: ...isn't it slightly odd that Grizel and Joey repeat it to comfort one another in the salt caves? I don't think so. Aside from not knowing what's happened to Cornelia, they do have to deal with the death of the Madman (sorry, it's been a while since I read it) and even for someone that they didn't really know in that proximity it must have been difficult. And of course even if you know that logically there's little danger of death, in a situation like that I imagine you would feel rather scared! I mean, the caves could have fallen in at any moment...

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
hac61 wrote: Has "Head Girl" been published in GGB edition yet? I know I missed some of the early editions before I found them. AFAIK it hasn't, although I may be wrong. It must have been pretty freaky for Friedel when the old man died in his arms, and I'm not surprised that Joey and Grizel were unnerved. I'm not really sure that it was ideal for Friedel to take the girls down the caves in the first place: I appreciate that he needed them to show him where the entrance to the caves was, but surely he'd've done better to take another adult with him. I like the fact that he gets a starring role, though: in the Swiss books it would definitely've been one of the doctors from the San playing that part!

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Aside from not knowing what's happened to Cornelia, they do have to deal with the death of the Madman (sorry, it's been a while since I read it) and even for someone that they didn't really know in that proximity it must have been difficult. Just looking, and they actually repeat what Madge says twice - once, as you say, is understandable, as it's after the madman's death. It's the first time I found a bit random when I was re-reading, because there's no immediate danger to either of them (apart from the worry for Cornelia) and they've got Friedel giving sensible orders, a search party on the way, and torches and string to get them back out of the caves, yet Grizel at least is behaving as though she may be going to die, and as if Joey is going to have to report her last words to Madge! Quote: When they had finished, Grizel put her arm round Jo, and held her close. "I've tried!" she said. "You'll tell Madame, Joey." "Yes," said Jo, "but I don't think there'll be any need, Grizel." A long silence followed. Then Jo suddenly turned towards the elder girl. "Death - is just falling asleep to wake with God," she said softly. "I know, Joey. It's just the memory of Madame's words that is helping me now." Then they turned and faced what might be coming, calm with that thought. Also not sure why Grizel thinks Joey's likely to outlive her and make it back to the Chalet with her last words - is the madman less likely to want to make Joey Queen of the Fairies or something,...? Samantha - on the photo of the CS for Marie thing, I think that a nanny loving a photo of her former charges (along with a nice bonus!) is a bit different, and I could understand why she might be very pleased. I think people's problem with the way EBD writes it is that it's a slightly smug version of the employer-servant relationship, where the servant just idolises her employers. So the best wedding present Marie could possibly be given is a photo of a bunch of schoolgirls she cooked and cleaned for three years for, and that she's thrilled because her adored Madge has a similar one and she thinks the photo is so special she's hung it in her kitchen and keeps flowers on a table underneath, as if it's a holy picture!

Author:	trig [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I'm another that thinks praying and thinking about death while in the caves would be natural. The madman story is completely plausible - strange men hanging around to lure girls away have always existed. It was very frightening to read about Cornelia's experiences as a child, although I was always more scared of getting lost underground than the madman himself. Although this storyline is realistic I find it rather a surprising one for EBD (or perhaps her publishers) because as an older teenager, and now as an adult reader (and surely she must have been as the author) I'm aware of the possible more sinister aspects of the madman's intentions and EBD always shies away from the more gritty realism.

Author:	Tor [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: Quote: It's the first time I found a bit random when I was re-reading, because there's no immediate danger to either of them (apart from the worry for Cornelia) and they've got Friedel giving sensible orders, a search party on the way, and torches and string to get them back out of the caves, yet Grizel at least is behaving as though she may be going to die, and as if Joey is going to have to report her last words to Madge! I suppose it could be EBDs way of helping the reader to differentiate between school-girl lark (running off to the Falls) and MORTAL PERIL, which I think is what she is going for with this adventure. So even if it is a bit out-of-nowhere, it helps to ramp the seriousness/scariness of the escapade up a notch. Perhaps she thought it would be setting a bad example to let Joey and Grizel go into the caves alone, lest a suggestible reader should get lost in the bowels of the earth copying their example ( ), but by dealing sensibly with the inherently scary aspects of the search (dark, unknown caves) she has to try and claw back some atmosphere from somewhere. trig wrote: Quote: The madman story is completely plausible - strange men hanging around to lure girls away have always existed ... Although this storyline is realistic I find it rather a surprising one for EBD ... I'm aware of the possible more sinister aspects of the madman's intentions and EBD always shies away from the more gritty realism. I'm not sure I'd say plausible, as much as possible, as I don't think it is a very likely story at all. However, it does have the hallmarks of moral panic about - I suppose EBD could have been tapping into contemporary obsessions with kidnappings (white slavers)or possibly worries over mentally ill people that - in part - lead to some rather horrible eugenic practices by the Nazis, as well the US amongst other countries . It's likely to have been in the news I guess, had quite a lot of mainstream support, and I don't think we are the only era to enjoy a bit of media sensationalism. I'd hazard a few pro-eugenics paper editors might pepper their columns with lurid tales of 'mentally defficient' people causing a menace to society. Pure speculation on my part , but knowing how open and caring EBD was, it would also fit with her making him ultimately tragic, and allowed to have a happy-ish ending (in EBDs terms at least) by dying and finding God. It would also explain why, perhaps, she didn't feel the story innappropriate - our obsession with paedophilia is a very modern moral panic, and so it probably didn't cross her mind.

Author:	fraujackson [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: To go back to the theme of religious spirit and death as falling asleep to wake with God - isn't it slightly odd that Grizel and Joey repeat it to comfort one another in the salt caves? They're not in any particular danger, far less plausibly in danger of death, even if they're worried for Cornelia - there's only one elderly madman, they have tough manly Friedel ahead of them and a search party coming behind. It would make more 'sense' for Cornelia to find it comforting (if she'd been around for Madge saying it, I mean), as she's the only one potentially in danger. Mind you, in fairness to the 'madman', he doesn't harm either Robin or Cornelia, only bores on about fairies and sings tunelessly, and the only evidence we have for his 'insane strength' is Grizel and Joey's frightened imaginations... Interesting that, like the dying patient at the San who has the last sacraments and is 'prepared' for death, Herr Arnolfini recovers his wits at the end and gets a 'Christian' end in the sense that Friedel prays over him. This is interesting. I'd always read it (as an adult) as their being at least half-afraid of Cornelia's death, not their own, and so they are comforting themselves about the possibility of her suffering, or not, as the case may be. Re. the mad-man: He 'came to his senses' before his death and 'repented' (at least in the Armada version.) To me this is the most specifically Christian part of the book (at least from my understanding of EBD's viewpoint). Whatever 'devil' was besetting him, left him at the end, and his 'good death' is linked to his return to sanity/repentance. From a Catholic viewpoint, the girls might be concerned about somebody dying unrepentant and without the benefits of the Sacraments - EBD shows the mad-man to be truly 'falling asleep with God', being reconciled. (The passage always reminds me of the healing of the ?Centurion's son in one of the Gospels (can't remember which): the devil throws the boy into a fit, won't let him talk, causes him to harm himself, etc; when healed he gets up, speech restored, and goes off praising God.) I also agree with the people talking about 'stranger danger' - I've never been sure how sinister EBD imagined the situation to be. When I re-read the book recently (post- the Fritzl /Prinkopil cases, especially), the idea of somebody luring the lovely innocent baby Robin to an underground cave to let her be Queen of the fairies struck me as particularly horrible. But perhaps EBD just wanted to emphasise the (spiritual and physical) losing/finding aspects.

Author:	Cel [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: It's the first time I found a bit random when I was re-reading, because there's no immediate danger to either of them (apart from the worry for Cornelia) and they've got Friedel giving sensible orders, a search party on the way, and torches and string to get them back out of the caves, yet Grizel at least is behaving as though she may be going to die, and as if Joey is going to have to report her last words to Madge! I agree, Sunglass - I remember finding this passage a bit jarring when I first read it. It would have been appropriate, say, when Grizel was stuck on the Tiernjoch, but here it seems a bit over-dramatic. I do love this book, though - and am only now realising how much I've missed out on by only ever having the Armada paperback

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I think EBD intends it to come across that Herr Arnolfini is just totally out of it, but - even to someone reading the book in more innocent times - the idea of a man luring young girls away and refusing to let them go must surely come across as being very sinister. Having said which, there's quite a fantastical Gothic element to it all: we're told that the villagers are frightened to go near the caves because there's this madman lurking around there, which in some ways sounds more like something by the Brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Andersen than something out of a GO book. On a totally different note, and just to play Devil's Advocate, does anyone think that Deira - like Margot Maynard later on - got away very lightly with an act that could potentially have killed someone? I know she was angry with Grizel and acted in the heat of the moment, without thinking, but, whilst that might cut it as an excuse for calling someone names or even slapping them across the face, does it really excuse throwing a stone at someone? I accept that she was sorry afterwards, but other people who were also sorry after the event were severely punished for things that were very minor in comparison or - in Sybil's case, Stacie's case and to a lesser extent Emerence's case - ended up torturing themselves for years afterwards over things that were genuine accidents.

Author:	Sunglass [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Alison H wrote: On a totally different note, and just to play Devil's Advocate, does anyone think that Deira - like Margot Maynard later on - got away very lightly with an act that could potentially have killed someone? Yes, absolutely. And when I was reading it again, I even thought that the full impact of Deira burning Grizel's harmony book was minimised. I realise she didn't know that Grizel's final letter from her Granny was in it, but even so, a prefect, who's been at the school for some time and is trusted, deliberately destroying another girl's property to get her in trouble is a fairly vicious and spiteful act, and Deira is, ultimately, responsible for destroying a beloved memento that can never be replaced for Grizel, who has so few people to love her. (Which I would have expected Madge to lecture Deira on - that your unthinking actions can have unintentionally hurtful consequences...) Yet Miss Maynard and Madge repeatedly describe the act as 'childish' - the same way Miss Annersley describes Margot's bookend-throwing - and which I think doesn't really reflect the gravity of either situation. I think EBD uses it as a kind of shorthand for showing that the CS authorities are well on top of the situation and able to handle it, by having them dismiss it as 'childish' - when in fact it's an act performed by an eighteen-year-old. Mind you, there are odd things about the way in which Deira is written in this book, anyway. If, as we're told in a later book, Deira is later presented at Court, then she's almost certainly Anglo-Irish, and so wouldn't have the accent or sentiments about Cromwell or English tyranny she's presented as having in the confrontation with Miss Maynard. And in such an international setting as the CS, it always strikes me as weird that sensible Miss Maynard puts Deira's action down to Quote: " the Spanish blood in her coming out." I'd expect that in some of the more Little Englander school story types, but it's an odd sentiment for the CS! Mind you, there's only a single Spaniard (I think) in the entire series, so maybe EBD did think they were hot-tempered and violent???

Author:	Nightwing [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: Mind you, there are odd things about the way in which Deira is written in this book, anyway. If, as we're told in a later book, Deira is later presented at Court, then she's almost certainly Anglo-Irish, and so wouldn't have the accent or sentiments about Cromwell or English tyranny she's presented as having in the confrontation with Miss Maynard. I don't have my copy handy, but doesn't she remember that line of "the curse of Cromwell on them all" as something her Nanny used to say? Perhaps she picked up the accent from her Nanny as well, and was sent to school to lose it before being presented. [/wild speculation]

Author:	Sunglass [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
I don't think any Anglo-Irish family would have left it so long to deal with her accent, to be honest (she'd probably have been at an English boarding school to 'make the right friends' ahead of her Season by now, anyway) but it's more unlikely that an eighteen-year-old of that background would be publicly quoting her nanny on Cromwell, English tyranny and the wrongs of Ireland, given that her own land-owning family would have had strong connections with England, and her ancestors may well have come over in Cromwell's army and been ceded Irish lands in return! I think it's just EBD not grasping the likely differences in speech and outlook etc between a working-class girl like Biddy O'Ryan and a girl who's about to be a debutante! Also, I think, she needs to make Deira fiery and wild (because of her crazy mix of Irish and Spanish blood, clearly!) in order to make her feud with Grizel work at all. Because getting Hobbies rather than Music as a job isn't that much of a sparking-off incident for book-burning and throwing stones. Someone was saying further up the thread how there are quite Gothic elements in Head Girl, with Joey's dark folktales about the lake etc and the madman trying to take away girls to see the fairies, and sometimes Deira sounds a bit Gothic villain-ish too, when she hisses things like 'I'm not going to put my neck under your heel!' at Grizel!

Author:	trig [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Religious Spirit- Head Girl
Sunglass wrote: Quote: Someone was saying further up the thread how there are quite Gothic elements in Head Girl, with Joey's dark folktales about the lake etc and the madman trying to take away girls to see the fairies, and sometimes Deira sounds a bit Gothic villain-ish too, when she hisses things like 'I'm not going to put my beck under your heel!' at Grizel! D'you think EBD was reading some Emily Bronte or the like at the time? I've never linked them all together, but the whole book as you say is rather OTT in terms of atmosphere etc. I remember when I was in my teens all my English essays used to change style according to what I was reading at the time. Princes was a bit out of kilter too - perhaps that one's due to the Prisoner of Zenda?