The CBB :: View topic - Themes : Religion

As regards different sects within Protestantism, there is a reference in one of the late Swiss books to the CS having its own hymnal, in part because of its Protestant girls and mistresses coming from a range of different religious traditions. It's the only explicit reference I can remember to that topic - maybe suggests someone pointed out that Protestantism doesn't equal C of E, especially at an international school, and EBD became belatedly aware she should have some kind of acknowledgement of that...?

It was at this time that Elaine Gilling, who since the accident that had so nearly cost them the lives of Joey and Maureen had been much quieter, took it upon herself to say to Mary Burnett, in the presence of Joey Bettany, the Robin—the Catholic girls had come in by this time—and Evadne Lannis, ‘It’s all very well, but I do think we might have some say in the collections!’
‘How do you mean?’ demanded Joey.
‘Well, where they’re to go, and so on. It’s always what you Chalet people say, and as we are a much bigger number than you, I don’t think it’s fair.’
‘But what do you want to do with them?’ asked Mary, seeing that Joey was too startled by this point of view to speak.
‘Well, why shouldn’t they go to foreign missions sometimes?’ asked Elaine.
‘Such as which?’ queried Joey, with a grin. ‘You mustn’t forget that we aren’t all English here. Some of our girls are Americans, and some are Germans and Norwegians. It’s only because this is the only Protestant religion hereabouts that they all come to this. And you can’t expect them to feel any interest in the S.P.G or the Y.M.C.A.’

Didn't EBD convert from C of E to Catholicism? I'd guess that having a foot in both camps, so to speak, would make a differenc

From my experience, which admittedly isn't huge, converts tend to be more fervent than those born into the religion. This is why EBD's tolerance always impressed me greatly.

I wonder the same thing about Tony Blair, given his 'Faith Foundation' hyperbole....

Slightly beside the point, I realise, but am I remembering wrongly that someone said at some point on the board that it was now thought that EBD's mother had been the convert, so that EBD herself actually grew up a Catholic? (Surely I can't have hallucinated this...?)

If true, this would give a slightly different spin to her deciding to make Joey a convert, rather than a cradle Catholic, even if she never focuses at all on the process of conversion.

This fascinates me! Why convert at all if you are so open minded and ecumenical - if EBD saw all paths to God as equally valid, what inspired her to change her (and then Joey's) religion?.

"...What makes you think you want to be Episcopalians, anyway?"

But now Betsy was tongue-tied. Not because she was afraid she would cry, although that entered in, but because she was shy of putting into words deeply felt emotions. She didn't mind putting them into written words. She could have written her father an essay on her feeling for the Episcopal Church, but she couldn't tell it to him.

Julia spoke eloquently. "It's the beauty of the service, papa," she said. "Betsy and I both respond to it. The music lifts us up, and the ritual is like a poem. We were just made to be Episcopalians."

"You've thought this over? It isn't just a whim?"

"We've thought it over for weeks and months," said Julia, glad to be able to say so. "We're sure of everything except whether or not we ought to hurt you and..."

"Julia," said Mr. Ray. "You'd never make a lawyer. I repeat that mother and I don't enter into this. You're seventeen years old, and Betsy's past fourteen. Both of you are almost women, and personally I'm glad to discover that you've given some thoughts to religion. It's a right thing to do when you begin to grow up. It's what I did, and what your mother did, and what ... I am sure.. your Grandmother Ray would approve if she were here. The important thing isn't what church you want to join but whether you want to join a church at all.

*** (more discussion)

"But that's just the beginning," Mr. Ray went on, and sat straight in his chair. "It isn't enough to go to church, and to support the church. The most important thing about religion isn't in any church. It's down in your own heart. Religion is in your thoughts, and in the way you act from day to day, in the way you treat other people. It's honesty, and unselfishness, and kindness. Especially kindness." (Heaven to Betsy, Maud Hart Lovelace, 1945)

All paths may be equally valid, but that doesn't mean that all are equally helpful to every individual or in all circumstances.

Was High Anglican not quite so 'high' in the early 20th Century? This might also have had an affect on the decision.

Quote:

I wonder the same thing about Tony Blair, given his 'Faith Foundation' hyperbole....

Someone told me the other day, and I don't know if this is true or not, that it is still illegal to have a Catholic prime minister, hence he had to convert.

Sunglass wrote:

IIRC both she and her mother were adult converts - but I can't quite recall where I read this :oops:

The late Helen McClelland's 'Behind the Schalet School' would answer this, but I don't have a copy here

Hereford Times, Saturday July 12, 1941

Children Being Taught by Roman Catholic Teachers

An unusual matter was brought to the notice of the Herefordshire Education Committee on Saturday--a letter from Mr. G. E. Gundy, chairman of the Newton Parish Meeting, accompanied by a petition signed by 46 parishioners protesting against the present mode of the teaching at the Newton Council School," by which local children were being taught by Roman Catholic teachers instead of their own appointed teachers, and complaining that the methods of such teaching were unsatisfactory.
The Elementary Education Sub-Committee in their report stated that they had informed Mr. Gundy that no religious tests were applied in the cases of teachers in Council schools; that the same conditions prevailed at Newton as in other parts of the county where there were evacuated children; that the Committee endeavoured to minimise as much as possible the disturbance of family life; and that all children were merged and classified into age groups which provided that children of the same age were taught together.
In proposing the report, which was adopted, Mr. W. J. Bray said that the hoped the Sub-Committee's explanation would meet the situation.

It isn't illegal for the PM to be a Catholic: the rules requiring members of the Houses of Parliament to take Anglican oaths were repealed in the 19th century. ... The rules barring Catholics or people marrying Catholics from the line of succession still exist, though

IIRC, the first time we're made aware that Joey is now a Catholic rather than an Anglican is in Rescue, when Sybil says something to the nosy neighbour about how she's the only one of the group who's a Protestant.

Jo, who was now propped up with pillows, and looking remarkably well, said casually, ‘By the way, the babes are to be baptised the day after tomorrow.’
‘Joey! Who are the god-parents, then?’
‘Bill and Charlie and Nally. Sorry I can’t have you, my dear, but as they’ll be brought up Catholics, it can’t be done.’
‘I knew that, and didn’t expect it. How are you going to get Grace Nalder across, though?’

While I'm thinking about the Maynards though, can anyone try and explain why Jack is Catholic and his sister isn't? I seem to remember something in Highland Twins about the rosary that he'd had since he was a child, which seems to rule out a later conversion. Is it just an EBDism or can it be explained in any plausible way?

It isn't illegal for the PM to be a Catholic: the rules requiring members of the Houses of Parliament to take Anglican oaths were repealed in the 19th century.

when that minor royal married Autumn Kelly last year, he had to give up his place in the succession,

I personally think Jack and Mollie's different religions is an EBDism.

The train of conversions continued during and after the [first world] war. Men and women disabused of their faith in progress as a force immanent in history found consolation in Catholicism. In the interwar years a distinguished group of British novelists converted to Catholicism, including Compton Mackenzie, Graham Greene, and Evelyn Waugh, and began to make lasting contributions to the canon of English literature. In the 1850s Newman had lamented that the great classics of English literature were Protestant to the core and that English was in effect a Protestant language. Now for the first time since the Reformation, English literature enjoyed a significant Catholic leavening.

Tony Blair apparently didn't want to convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism whilst he was PM because he thought it'd mean there being too much media attention on a private issue.

Given the traditional Church requirement that children of a 'mixed' marriage be brought up Catholic, I think a devoutly Catholic parent of that period would have faced serious problems with practising his/her faith while allowing one of their children to be raised C of E - presumably it would have counted as some kind of sin of omission (or do I mean commission?)

Do we know for sure that Joey converted properly? Is it explicit in the text?

Joey began life as a member of the Church of England. She became a convert in a book which has never seen the light of day. Jack was a "cradle" Catholic.

I am still not 100% sure where I got the idea that Mollie was C of E, must have picked it up somewhere though

Author:	Lottie [ Wed May 06, 2009 8:29 am ]
Post subject:	Themes : Religion
Religion is clearly very important to EBD, and also to the CS girls. What do you think about EBD’s portrayal of faith, both individually and collectively? What about the distinctions between Catholicism and Protestantism? Why is Protestantism practically synonymous with the Church of England? There are brief references to Richenda Fry being a Quaker, and girls having to attend dull Lutheran services when away on half-term expeditions, but why are there no girls who are Methodists/Baptists/Church of Scotland/other Protestant denominations? What about non Christian beliefs? It’s probably not surprising that there weren’t many applications from Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists – they weren’t very prevalent in Western society at the time EBD was writing. But the only Jews I remember are Herr Goldmann and his Wife in Exile. Did Jewish families not apply to the school for their daughters’ education? Or were they turned away because of their faith? What about agnostics and atheists? Would they have been on a par with heretics in the CS world? My dictionary defines a ‘heathen’ as one who doesn’t acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and a ‘pagan’ as a follower of a polytheistic religion. What do you think about the fact that EBD used both words in a rather derogatory fashion to describe uncivilised behaviour, usually on the part of naughty middles? Please feel free to post your thoughts on these, and any other aspects of religion at the CS, below. Lottie - temporarily wearing an FD mod hat.

Author:	Sunglass [ Wed May 06, 2009 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
As regards different sects within Protestantism, there is a reference in one of the late Swiss books to the CS having its own hymnal, in part because of its Protestant girls and mistresses coming from a range of different religious traditions. It's the only explicit reference I can remember to that topic - maybe suggests someone pointed out that Protestantism doesn't equal C of E, especially at an international school, and EBD became belatedly aware she should have some kind of acknowledgement of that...? I like her progressive ecumenism throughout. I sometimes think her desire to present Catholicism as entirely normative for British characters as well as other nationalities must have stemmed from having herself felt like a member of a minority - and presumably adds to the reasons she never focuses at all on doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Protestantism - it would be too divisive. (Although she carefully presents in virtually every book an explanation of the separation for prayers, and there are little things like why Joey can't participate in the Mass for Bernhilda's wedding, or ask Madge to be godparent to one of the triplets - but not, say, Joey having any kind of internal self-questioning as she converts to Catholicism?) I find at times her representation of religious faith strains the realism of the books to their detriment - particularly that in the later books, every major 'good' character is a devout Christian, and there is an element of rather clunky preaching which never occurs in the earlier books. I also find somewhat hard to take that almost all characters appear to have precisely the same kind of religious faith - fatalistic and childlike - despite being otherwise very different people, of different generations, nationalities, and levels of education etc etc. It's as though EBD is so concerned with her religious message that she puts character second to what can sometimes feel like badly-integrated sermons. The fact that she personally feels that deep religious faith should be at the centre of everyone's life means that she portrays it as though it invariably is... Some of that can get quite irritating at its worst, like the insensitive way Naomi's agnosticism is handled, and the way Joey lectures Jane Carew on remembering to thank God 'when everything is all right' - despite the fact that her mother's life is still in danger and Jane is terrified. I can handle Jack earlier telling Jane she can help her mother by praying for her, because it's fairly standard for EBD to have people saying this to characters to whom they are virtual strangers and about whose religious beliefs they know nothing - but it seems fairly insensitive of Joey to hector someone about religious 'good manners' when they may be facing a parent's death in a distant country.

Author:	MaryR [ Wed May 06, 2009 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
EBD was well ahead of her time in her attitude to ecumenism. I, as a Catholic in the fifties, was being taught that mine was the only true faith. One wonders what some church people thought of her attitude. Perhaps we ought to remember, though, that she was writing for children, so the different faiths within the C of E wouldn't have been seen as quite so important for to write about. And writing in detail about the difference in doctrines, etc, wouldn't have had a place in children's literature - though I know Antonia Forest did it to an extent. Nor did we question things in the way youngsters did even just a few years later, so that trusting faith was still there. And indeed teenage girls, if they did have faith, often tended to veer to being almost fanatical. I was detemrined to be a nun when I was sixteen. It didn't last! As I went to Catholic schools and most of my friends were of the same faith, I can't speak for everyone, but I can understand Mary-Lou's shock that Naomi had no faith, if only from the point of view that the school must have laid emphasis on its ecumenism in its prospectus. At that time, many more people attended church, no matter which faith they were, and I would certainly have found it a shock if someone had said that to me at school - which is strange, looking back. I'm sure there must have Jewish children in many faith schools, but I didn't personally know of any. When my daughter attended a Catholic school in the eighties, however, there were quite a few Jewish girls there, and they attended the prayers etc. even though we do have Jewish schools around. Maybe it was something EBD felt she couldn't handle, or that her young readers couldn't handle. But as a child/young girl reading the books, I don't think these questions impinged so much for me. We're looking at it from an adult point of view. Sorry - I'm not sure any of that made any sense, and I'm sure someone will pounce and say I'm talking rubbish, which I probably am. Dangerous subject, religion!

Author:	trig [ Wed May 06, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
I agree with Sunglass on the grating effect of the religion in some of the later books. I even felt squeamish about the overt discussion of the death of one of the san patients in one of the early books (Exploits? when I first read it aged about 10. My family was quite religious, but we never discussed things like this openly. Perhaps a book was a good way of bringing it up but I have never really felt comfortable with it. I do agree with MaryR too, that when I was a child (in 70s/early 80s) everyone in our village went either to Church or Chapel apart from a few RCs and some "odd" people who weren't anything. even such a short time ago it was deemed strange not to go to believe in something. I've always felt that EBD was way ahead of her time, too. I've just been reading Lavender and there's Lillamani whose difference is never remarked upon negatively in the way I expect it would have been in EB. I was never quite sure what religion she was - Hindu? Muslim? Christian?

Author:	abbeybufo [ Wed May 06, 2009 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
I went to a C of E school in the 1960s and don't remember any Roman Catholic girls - would I have known? Depends on whether they were allowed to come into assembly or not, I guess. There was a quite well-thought of convent school [educationally high standard, I mean by that] so that would no doubt be the preferred option for RC parents. We certainly had several denominations of the Protestant side of things - some Scottish girls who were Presbyterian, myself Congregationalist, some Methodists, as well as C of E. And there were quite a few Jewish girls [at least two or three in each year, I'd say] who came into assembly after the prayers and hymns bit, for the announcements, and came to the Old Testament lessons in RE, but not of course the NT. I spent quite a bit of my lunchtimes with the Jewish girls, because they brought 'cold lunches' - the normal school meals were naturally not kosher - and I, being a fussy eater [particularly at that stage in my life] always had sandwiches too. So I learnt a bit about Jewish food laws along the way.

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Themes : Religion http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6026

Author:	Thursday Next [ Wed May 06, 2009 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
I am almost certain the book refers to Lillamani as a Christian. I doubt if any Jewish family, particularly orthodox Jewish family, would send their child to a school that could not keep to the dietry laws and other laws and the same would apply to Muslim families. Day schools are slightly different as the children can take packed lunches or not eat at school but not boarding. I was educated at Catholic schools and at the time there were no non Catholic children at any of the schools.

Author:	Chelsea [ Wed May 06, 2009 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Sunglass wrote: As regards different sects within Protestantism, there is a reference in one of the late Swiss books to the CS having its own hymnal, in part because of its Protestant girls and mistresses coming from a range of different religious traditions. It's the only explicit reference I can remember to that topic - maybe suggests someone pointed out that Protestantism doesn't equal C of E, especially at an international school, and EBD became belatedly aware she should have some kind of acknowledgement of that...? It is also (sort of) mentioned in Rivals, when Elaine asks about the collections. Quote: It was at this time that Elaine Gilling, who since the accident that had so nearly cost them the lives of Joey and Maureen had been much quieter, took it upon herself to say to Mary Burnett, in the presence of Joey Bettany, the Robin—the Catholic girls had come in by this time—and Evadne Lannis, ‘It’s all very well, but I do think we might have some say in the collections!’ ‘How do you mean?’ demanded Joey. ‘Well, where they’re to go, and so on. It’s always what you Chalet people say, and as we are a much bigger number than you, I don’t think it’s fair.’ ‘But what do you want to do with them?’ asked Mary, seeing that Joey was too startled by this point of view to speak. ‘Well, why shouldn’t they go to foreign missions sometimes?’ asked Elaine. ‘Such as which?’ queried Joey, with a grin. ‘You mustn’t forget that we aren’t all English here. Some of our girls are Americans, and some are Germans and Norwegians. It’s only because this is the only Protestant religion hereabouts that they all come to this. And you can’t expect them to feel any interest in the S.P.G or the Y.M.C.A.’

Author:	Alison H [ Wed May 06, 2009 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Lilamani was C of E. I'm surprised that EBD seems to treat Protestantism as equalling Church of England. Wouldn't Methodism, in particular, have been quite strong in parts of NE England (where she grew up)? Also, in the very early books (just the first few), all the British and also the Irish characters seem to be C of E/Protestant (Jack and Mollie Maynard definitely attend Protestant services early on). I would think that the school's insistence on church attendance would have been offputting for non-Christian families: although it wasn't officially a faith school, it may as well have been. For more religious girls from non-Christian faiths, there would also have been issues about food, prayers, Sabbath observance, etc. It would have been interesting to see a girl from a non-Christian faith come to the school because a relative was at the San and there were no other suitable schools nearby, though, and see how the school coped with it, but it's possible that EBD didn't feel comfortable writing about religions which she didn't know much about. Our school was (in terms of nominal religion - most people really weren't that fussed about any of it!!) about 50% Christian (the majority Protestants of various denominations, even though there's a high proportion of Catholic families in the area, because there was a very good Catholic school close by so most Catholic kids went there instead), 20-25% Jewish, and maybe 10-12% Muslim, 10-12% Hindu, and the rest various other religions. It was great and we never had any sort of trouble, but there were sometimes issues to be dealt with e.g. when a large proportion of the class would be absent due to a religous holiday on what was officially a "normal" school day, and at a boarding school there would be a lot more issues to deal with. I think it was probably just a coincidence, but the two overseas locations chosen for the school were completely different in terms of religion, Tyrol being very strongly Catholic and the Oberland being (not now, but certainly in the 1950s) very strongly Calvinist. We get a strong sense of the importance of religion in Tyrol, but not in the Oberland ... but maybe that's just because the school's never as involved in local life in the Oberland as it is in Tyrol.

Author:	MJKB [ Wed May 06, 2009 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
I was very impressed with EBD's ecuminism, particularly in view of her pre Vatican 2 Catholicism. She was writing at a time when religious intolerance was still very much an issue. I was about 6 when Vatican 2 was convened and I remember thinking of Protestants as being practically a different species. The doctrine "outside the Church there is no salvation" was interpreted by many Catholics to mean exactly that, erroneously, admittedly. I do agree though that the religion of Tyrol days was 'gentler', to misquote Margia Stevens, or certainly far less 'preachy' (how awful is my English!) than in the later books.

Author:	Josette [ Sat May 09, 2009 12:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Didn't EBD convert from C of E to Catholicism? I'd guess that having a foot in both camps, so to speak, would make a difference.

Author:	MJKB [ Sat May 09, 2009 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Josette wrote: Didn't EBD convert from C of E to Catholicism? I'd guess that having a foot in both camps, so to speak, would make a differenc From my experience, which admittedly isn't huge, converts tend to be more fervent than those born into the religion. This is why EBD's tolerance always impressed me greatly.

Author:	Tor [ Mon May 11, 2009 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
popping up from thesis-land Quote: From my experience, which admittedly isn't huge, converts tend to be more fervent than those born into the religion. This is why EBD's tolerance always impressed me greatly. This fascinates me! Why convert at all if you are so open minded and ecumenical - if EBD saw all paths to God as equally valid, what inspired her to change her (and then Joey's) religion?. I wonder the same thing about Tony Blair, given his 'Faith Foundation' hyperbole.... Was it social? (EBD put Joey in this category, by making Jack catholic, but I think Molly was always described as C of E, no? so it seems like EBD invented Jack's catholicism, to produce a reason for Joey's conversion. EBD didn't have marriage as a reason, but I wonder if her friends were mostly Catholic? Obviously it impossible to know, and everyones journey is personal, but an ecumenical approach doesn't usually tally with conversion, in my v humble opinion, as MJKB also notes. Also, I'd say that EBD was very devout and interested in theology to some level, as evidenced by her preachiness in later books (more of a usual hallmar of someone who has converted to a faith). However, what does make some kind of sense is imagining an EBD writing the early CS books as she was working through her own beliefs, and being drawn to Catholicism, and thus feeling the need to justify her own mixed feelings by integrating both faiths ( a 'foot in both camps' as someone said). THEN eventually converting, but holding true to that justification, despite the logical endpoint of that thought process being that no conversion is necessary. Whilst it is a v. personal subject, and I can understand why people wouldn't want to talk about ti, would anyone like to share the reasons they had for converting to another faith/denomination?

Author:	MaryR [ Mon May 11, 2009 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Our Parish Priest, who with his wife converted from CofE to Catholicicm several years ago, said it was like coming home. And I've heard others say the same thing. My own father converted to marry my mother in 1943 but I've never been able to get him to talk about it, though he was the one who always ensured we got to Mass. I do agree that at EBD's time of conversion, most converts would have been fanatical in their support of their new church, so her ecumenism was almost avant-garde. At that time we were taught that the Catholic church was the one true church. But - I think today's converts are much more broad-minded, like the majority of any religious persuasion, and see that all roads in effect lead to the same God.

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon May 11, 2009 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Slightly beside the point, I realise, but am I remembering wrongly that someone said at some point on the board that it was now thought that EBD's mother had been the convert, so that EBD herself actually grew up a Catholic? (Surely I can't have hallucinated this...?) If true, this would give a slightly different spin to her deciding to make Joey a convert, rather than a cradle Catholic, even if she never focuses at all on the process of conversion. Interesting, though, that while Joey is shown to be entirely at ease with Catholicism from early in the Tyrol years, happily going to Catholic mass when there is no Protestant ceremony available and supported by EBD for doing so, we're left to presume that the reason she converts is because of her marriage to a Catholic, rather than because of some personal revelation...? Though that might make sense in terms of what seems like a very open ecumenism - if all roads to God are equally valid, as EBD says on more than one occasion, then Joey might well have remained happily within the C of E had she remained unmarried, or married someone C of E, but could see no reason not to convert equally happily when she married Jack, so that she could be within the same religion as her husband and their children, who would have had to be brought up as Catholics whether or not she was...?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon May 11, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: I wonder the same thing about Tony Blair, given his 'Faith Foundation' hyperbole.... Someone told me the other day, and I don't know if this is true or not, that it is still illegal to have a Catholic prime minister, hence he had to convert.

Author:	abbeybufo [ Mon May 11, 2009 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Sunglass wrote: Slightly beside the point, I realise, but am I remembering wrongly that someone said at some point on the board that it was now thought that EBD's mother had been the convert, so that EBD herself actually grew up a Catholic? (Surely I can't have hallucinated this...?) If true, this would give a slightly different spin to her deciding to make Joey a convert, rather than a cradle Catholic, even if she never focuses at all on the process of conversion. IIRC both she and her mother were adult converts - but I can't quite recall where I read this The late Helen McClelland's 'Behind the Schalet School' would answer this, but I don't have a copy here

Author:	Kathy_S [ Mon May 11, 2009 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: This fascinates me! Why convert at all if you are so open minded and ecumenical - if EBD saw all paths to God as equally valid, what inspired her to change her (and then Joey's) religion?. All paths may be equally valid, but that doesn't mean that all are equally helpful to every individual or in all circumstances. I think that EBD probably considered conversion an important step in finding her own path to God, and making a commitment to follow that path. In GO terms, here is part of the conversation in which Betsy and Julia finally tell their father the Baptist deacon that they want to be confirmed in the Episcopalian church: Quote: "...What makes you think you want to be Episcopalians, anyway?" But now Betsy was tongue-tied. Not because she was afraid she would cry, although that entered in, but because she was shy of putting into words deeply felt emotions. She didn't mind putting them into written words. She could have written her father an essay on her feeling for the Episcopal Church, but she couldn't tell it to him. Julia spoke eloquently. "It's the beauty of the service, papa," she said. "Betsy and I both respond to it. The music lifts us up, and the ritual is like a poem. We were just made to be Episcopalians." "You've thought this over? It isn't just a whim?" "We've thought it over for weeks and months," said Julia, glad to be able to say so. "We're sure of everything except whether or not we ought to hurt you and..." "Julia," said Mr. Ray. "You'd never make a lawyer. I repeat that mother and I don't enter into this. You're seventeen years old, and Betsy's past fourteen. Both of you are almost women, and personally I'm glad to discover that you've given some thoughts to religion. It's a right thing to do when you begin to grow up. It's what I did, and what your mother did, and what ... I am sure.. your Grandmother Ray would approve if she were here. The important thing isn't what church you want to join but whether you want to join a church at all. *** (more discussion) "But that's just the beginning," Mr. Ray went on, and sat straight in his chair. "It isn't enough to go to church, and to support the church. The most important thing about religion isn't in any church. It's down in your own heart. Religion is in your thoughts, and in the way you act from day to day, in the way you treat other people. It's honesty, and unselfishness, and kindness. Especially kindness." (Heaven to Betsy, Maud Hart Lovelace, 1945)

Author:	Tor [ Mon May 11, 2009 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: All paths may be equally valid, but that doesn't mean that all are equally helpful to every individual or in all circumstances. Yes, that's true. It is also apparent that EBD was keen on pagentry, music and highly decorated churches from various things she has characters say throughout the CS series, so it may well be these aspects that clinched it (as it seems the Episcopal music did for Betsy and Julie!). Was High Anglican not quite so 'high' in the early 20th Century? This might also have had an affect on the decision.

Author:	MaryR [ Mon May 11, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Tor wrote: Was High Anglican not quite so 'high' in the early 20th Century? This might also have had an affect on the decision. Maybe it was just the sheer certainty in the Catholic faith that she liked. As it was at that time. And the smells and bells aspect - incense and the mystery and the beauty of it all. I know I wouldn't feel at home in any other rite. But who can really say why someone believes what they believe? Looking for reasons rather takes away from her conversion.

Author:	Clare [ Mon May 11, 2009 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Quote: I wonder the same thing about Tony Blair, given his 'Faith Foundation' hyperbole.... Someone told me the other day, and I don't know if this is true or not, that it is still illegal to have a Catholic prime minister, hence he had to convert. Tis true, but he converted once he had stepped down as PM. He didn't convert in order to become PM.

Author:	Cross Eyed Lens [ Mon May 11, 2009 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
abbeybufo wrote: Sunglass wrote: Slightly beside the point, I realise, but am I remembering wrongly that someone said at some point on the board that it was now thought that EBD's mother had been the convert, so that EBD herself actually grew up a Catholic? (Surely I can't have hallucinated this...?) If true, this would give a slightly different spin to her deciding to make Joey a convert, rather than a cradle Catholic, even if she never focuses at all on the process of conversion. IIRC both she and her mother were adult converts - but I can't quite recall where I read this The late Helen McClelland's 'Behind the Schalet School' would answer this, but I don't have a copy here According to "Behind..." EBD was formally received into the Roman Catholic Church on Friday 12 December 1930 at the Church of St. Bede's in Westoe Road, South Shields. It doesn't mention her mother converting. Joy Wotton tells me that Nelly Ainslie made a deathbed conversion to RC but while they lived in Hereford she worshipped at St. Peters Church, 102 St. James Road, Hereford which is a CofE church. We found this report in a Hereford newspaper from 1941 which shows how strongly people felt about religious divisions. Quote: Hereford Times, Saturday July 12, 1941 Children Being Taught by Roman Catholic Teachers An unusual matter was brought to the notice of the Herefordshire Education Committee on Saturday--a letter from Mr. G. E. Gundy, chairman of the Newton Parish Meeting, accompanied by a petition signed by 46 parishioners protesting against the present mode of the teaching at the Newton Council School," by which local children were being taught by Roman Catholic teachers instead of their own appointed teachers, and complaining that the methods of such teaching were unsatisfactory. The Elementary Education Sub-Committee in their report stated that they had informed Mr. Gundy that no religious tests were applied in the cases of teachers in Council schools; that the same conditions prevailed at Newton as in other parts of the county where there were evacuated children; that the Committee endeavoured to minimise as much as possible the disturbance of family life; and that all children were merged and classified into age groups which provided that children of the same age were taught together. In proposing the report, which was adopted, Mr. W. J. Bray said that the hoped the Sub-Committee's explanation would meet the situation.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon May 11, 2009 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
It isn't illegal for the PM to be a Catholic: the rules requiring members of the Houses of Parliament to take Anglican oaths were repealed in the 19th century. Tony Blair apparently didn't want to convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism whilst he was PM because he thought it'd mean there being too much media attention on a private issue. The rules barring Catholics or people marrying Catholics from the line of succession still exist, though, ridiculous though it may be in this day and age: Autumn Kelly converted to Anglicanism before marrying Peter Phillips last year. I do wonder why EBD never actually "showed" Joey converting, or at least referred to the fact that she'd made that decision. I can understand that she may have thought that it wasn't an issue that was relevant to the books, but in that case why did she have it happening at all? IIRC, the first time we're made aware that Joey is now a Catholic rather than an Anglican is in Rescue, when Sybil says something to the nosy neighbour about how she's the only one of the group who's a Protestant. It's one of the many things which I always assumed was cut out of the pbs but which I eventually found out just wasn't mentioned at all. The fact that it's never mentioned rather gives the impression that Joey just converted to make things more straightforward with the children, in that they'd have two parents of the same religion. Most of the people I know who've converted from one religion to another have done so for that reason, and it's a perfectly good reason; but I would have thought EBD would have wanted to show Joey making the decision for more directly religious reasons. I assume she just wanted Joey to be the same religion as she was ... Actually, Joey and Tony Blair have something in common here , in that Tony Blair is also someone who was originally an Anglican, married a Catholic, and eventually converted but didn't do so at the time of the marriage.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon May 11, 2009 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
I knew about the laws of succession, because I read a joke about the excuses Camilla Parker Bowles must have come up with for her first husband, who was Catholic, about not converting I've always seen it not being shown as just another way that EBD keeps faith very much a background issue whilst still maintaining its importance, if that makes sense. I know that this isn't necessarily the case in later books, but certainly in the Tirol days there is mention of a 'simple faith' but there isn't such a marked divide between Catholic and Protestant. Also, EBD may have seen it as natural for Joey to convert; certainly if we assume EBD always intended for her to marry Catholic Jack then the earlier scenes where she goes to a Catholic mass and things read as hints of her conversion. I think that not showing it actually fits in quite well with her ideology of all religion being about God, not individual beliefs or practices within the religions.

Author:	Clare [ Mon May 11, 2009 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: It isn't illegal for the PM to be a Catholic: the rules requiring members of the Houses of Parliament to take Anglican oaths were repealed in the 19th century. ... The rules barring Catholics or people marrying Catholics from the line of succession still exist, though Ah, my mistake. I knew there were rules somewhere about not being allowed to be Catholic for something...

Author:	Cat C [ Tue May 12, 2009 9:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: IIRC, the first time we're made aware that Joey is now a Catholic rather than an Anglican is in Rescue, when Sybil says something to the nosy neighbour about how she's the only one of the group who's a Protestant. You may well be right, but I thought there was something in Exile, because of the trips' godmothers?

Author:	JB [ Tue May 12, 2009 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
This is the quote from Exile. It refers to the children but not Joey, which shows i've been misreading this for years. Quote: Jo, who was now propped up with pillows, and looking remarkably well, said casually, ‘By the way, the babes are to be baptised the day after tomorrow.’ ‘Joey! Who are the god-parents, then?’ ‘Bill and Charlie and Nally. Sorry I can’t have you, my dear, but as they’ll be brought up Catholics, it can’t be done.’ ‘I knew that, and didn’t expect it. How are you going to get Grace Nalder across, though?’ I think it would have been natural for EBD to mention Joey's conversion as it would have been so important to her. It flows naturally from Madge's enlightened approach in allowing teenage Joey to attend Mass if there isn't an Anglican service nearby and the quote which I can't remember about "one of the roads to God". I can, though, see why she wouldn't go into too much detail and I can't better Chubby Monkey's thoughts on this. ETA - Helen McClelland's short story "Joey and Patricia", which was distributed with the New Chalet Club journal a number of years ago, does cover Joey's conversion.

Author:	Lexi [ Tue May 12, 2009 10:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
I haven't read Exile for quite a while but isn't that something along the lines that the triplets are going to be brought up as Catholics? I'm not sure it refers to Jo herself as having converted at that point. ETA - Beaten to it! While I'm thinking about the Maynards though, can anyone try and explain why Jack is Catholic and his sister isn't? I seem to remember something in Highland Twins about the rosary that he'd had since he was a child, which seems to rule out a later conversion. Is it just an EBDism or can it be explained in any plausible way?

Author:	MJKB [ Tue May 12, 2009 10:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Lexi wrote: While I'm thinking about the Maynards though, can anyone try and explain why Jack is Catholic and his sister isn't? I seem to remember something in Highland Twins about the rosary that he'd had since he was a child, which seems to rule out a later conversion. Is it just an EBDism or can it be explained in any plausible way? Maybe the old Squire Maynard was Catholic and his wife was Anglican. Jack follows his father's religion and Mollie her mother's. This did happen quite often but would have been deeply disapproved off by the Catholic Church (I can't speak for the Anglican) under Ne temere I think. I taught two sisters whose mother was Catholic and whose father was CofI. They were brought up Catholic and their brothers were members of the local Cof I. They also went to each others' services. This was back in the eighties and I remember it particularly because one or two of the lay teachers strongly disapproved of the arrangement while the quite elderly nun who was School Principal approved. Alison H wrote: It isn't illegal for the PM to be a Catholic: the rules requiring members of the Houses of Parliament to take Anglican oaths were repealed in the 19th century. Am I dreaming or does the Chancellor have to be non Catholic?

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue May 12, 2009 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
I personally think Jack and Mollie's different religions is an EBDism. Given the traditional Church requirement that children of a 'mixed' marriage be brought up Catholic, I think a devoutly Catholic parent of that period would have faced serious problems with practising his/her faith while allowing one of their children to be raised C of E - presumably it would have counted as some kind of sin of omission (or do I mean commission?) and might have involved being debarred from the sacraments, if you had a doctrinaire parish priest..? I mean, I'm sure that situation happened in real life, but it would have been endlessly complex, and the kind of inter-faith wrangle I think ecumenical EBD would have shied away from... That's interesting, if EBD's mother and EBD herself both converted as adults... I was just wondering how Catholicism would have been socially in their day - on the one hand, you had the snob Brideshead- type association between Catholicism and the aristocracy, and on the other, you had associations with Irish immigrants, 'foreignness' and relative poverty. Although conversion would presumably have been seen differently to being a cradle Catholic... EBD is linking Joey's conversion to a relatively socially elevated kind of Catholicism, given Jack's background. The thing that makes me giggle about the monarchy and Catholicism is the requirement that you have to relinquish your place in line to the throne if you marry a Catholic - when that minor royal married Autumn Kelly last year, he had to give up his place in the succession, even though he was 58th in line to the throne! It cracked me up to think of the kind of bloodbath that would have had to occur for him to get within spitting distance of being king...

Author:	MJKB [ Tue May 12, 2009 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Sunglass wrote: when that minor royal married Autumn Kelly last year, he had to give up his place in the succession, I may be totally out of order here, but I suspect that the Queen would not have been too happy with her grandson marrying a Catholic. It is said (by the media!!!) that Peter Philips is one of her favourite grandsons. There's still the fact that she is Head of the Church of England.

Author:	Tor [ Tue May 12, 2009 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: I personally think Jack and Mollie's different religions is an EBDism. Me too. When do we first hear about Jack's catholicism? As i said above somewhere, I always suspected EBD made Jack a Catholic so she could have a reason for Joey also converting, without going into the details. Does she ever even explicitly point out the difference in Mollie and Jack's faiths (I am still not 100% sure where I got the idea that Mollie was C of E, must have picked it up somewhere though)? But is is interesting that she seems to have worked out that there was an issue with the siblings being of different denominations, otherwise Mollie would be a clear choice of godmother.... This is interesting from a wider historical perspective: from http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/a/allitt-converts.html Quote: The train of conversions continued during and after the [first world] war. Men and women disabused of their faith in progress as a force immanent in history found consolation in Catholicism. In the interwar years a distinguished group of British novelists converted to Catholicism, including Compton Mackenzie, Graham Greene, and Evelyn Waugh, and began to make lasting contributions to the canon of English literature. In the 1850s Newman had lamented that the great classics of English literature were Protestant to the core and that English was in effect a Protestant language. Now for the first time since the Reformation, English literature enjoyed a significant Catholic leavening.

Author:	CBW [ Tue May 12, 2009 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: Tony Blair apparently didn't want to convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism whilst he was PM because he thought it'd mean there being too much media attention on a private issue. its possibly just the cynic in me but I thought it had more to do with the fact that the British public as a whole tend to view strong religious views with suspicion and he didn't want to damage his political chances by openly declaring his desire to convert until after he left office.

Author:	MaryR [ Tue May 12, 2009 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Quote: Given the traditional Church requirement that children of a 'mixed' marriage be brought up Catholic, I think a devoutly Catholic parent of that period would have faced serious problems with practising his/her faith while allowing one of their children to be raised C of E - presumably it would have counted as some kind of sin of omission (or do I mean commission?) In those days you couldn't marry a Catholic unless you signed an agreement to bring the children up as Catholics - we were as atrict as that. By 1973, when we got married, Ray just had to give a verbal agreement, which didn't bother him overmuch as he doesn't follow any faith, but for a staunch Anglican or Jew etc, it must be very hard. And, of course, when Joey married, if you did marry a Catholic and you yourself didn't convert, you couldn't have a Nuptual mass or anything, just some small ceremony almost behind closed doors.

Author:	Kate [ Tue May 12, 2009 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Themes : Religion
Do we know for sure that Joey converted properly? Is it explicit in the text? I'm wondering if she just went to Catholic services and observe Catholic custom because her children were Catholic and she had to teach them. I'm just thinking along the lines that - to all intents and purposes I am CoI in school because it is a CoI school and I must teach the faith to the children, but I am not converting to the faith privately. I'm reasonably sure the parents assume I am CoI (though my name isn't a CoI name, so maybe they don't...)