The CBB :: View topic - Books: Redheads at the Chalet School

I rather enjoyed Redheads, seeing EBD try out a thriller plot in the familiar setting, and there were only minor implausibilities (or no more so than a lot of thrillers!)

Some of the transitions between the usual CS stuff and the thriller stuff are really rocky, like when Miss Annersley, who's just broken it to Copper that a dangerous criminal gang is after her, nonetheless ticks her off for using the expression 'having kittens'! Or when Joey, whom Hilda keeps consulting like she's Interpol, apparently seriously suggests reviving the CS Pets Club, rather than getting police protection for Copper!

The other students *are* put in serious jeopardy as a result - Val and Len in particular.

"I know it's asking a lot of you," the Head said apolo¬getically, "but Dr Maynard says that the less fuss we make about her adventure the better for her. Also she mustn't be allowed to think that she can get away with that sort of thing." [...] Luckily Nurse arrived just then with a tray. [...] She was not in the least prepared to make a fuss of the sinner. Like most folk at the school, now that the worry was over she felt very indignant about the affair.

...she shrewdly guessed that Miss Jack was a good deal of a featherhead. Jack's special chum, Wanda von Eschenau, attracted her more. Wanda was small, dainty and unusually lovely, with long golden curls, deep violet eyes and perfect features. Copper soon saw that quiet as Wanda was in general, she frequently acted as a brake on Jack's wilder exploits. Two more of the same gang-they were known as the Gang by most folk...

Quote:
...she shrewdly guessed that Miss Jack was a good deal of a featherhead. Jack's special chum, Wanda von Eschenau, attracted her more. Wanda was small, dainty and unusually lovely, with long golden curls, deep violet eyes and perfect features. Copper soon saw that quiet as Wanda was in general, she frequently acted as a brake on Jack's wilder exploits. Two more of the same gang-they were known as the Gang by most folk...

I wouldn't have described her as a "featherhead" either, but I would call her thoughtless, which I think is what EBD was trying to drive at - she just picked the wrong synonym!

Jack was here and Jack, featherhead as she was, had a strong vein of reliability in her.

Oh, hang Val! Why did she barge off like that, silly clot!"
"Jack! En français, s'il te plaît!" snapped Len Maynard who encountered the pair at the bathroom door.

She's Mrs Maynard's niece or something. I know she used to live at their house when they were in England. Len told me so once. She's a doctor, too, you know, only she doesn't do it any more because she's got three little kids so she hasn't time.

I loved the plot of the mime -- it read for me as though EBD were making fun of her own book.

It never really occurred to me that she might (call Copper 'Ginger', I mean). But then EBD, obsessed though she is with giving lots of her characters red hair of various colours (chestnut, copper, red-gold etc), seems to participate in a now-widespread dislike of the hair colour which is these days referred to as 'ginger' in the UK

Nancy Drew is a redhead, for the record

Actually she started out in 1930 with a "golden bob," translated in the early revisions as blond and blue-eyed, but in later volumes/editions morphed wildly, going as far as titian!

I agree about having brown hair though - it always seemed that only plain, sensible characters got cursed with brown hair...

Also, given that part of the prejudice discussion focused on gender, and it seemed clear that while red-haired women can be seen as striking, unusual, glamorous etc, red-haired boys and men had a harder time - I found myself noticing that, despite the fact that Joey has three red-haired daughters, none of her sons have red hair, and nor are any of the Russell sons (that I can recall) red-haired, despite having at least one red-haired sister - and that's including 'red-gold', 'copper', 'chestnut' etc - all shades she clearly considers beautiful in a girl...

...Fiona had retaliated with "Redhead" so Sybil had been rather more meek of late.

The Bible, I have to say, would be rather more fun if everyone's hair-colour was specified. But presumably, being set where it is, everyone, or virtually everyone, would be dark-haired, so no more of those curiously Anglo-Saxon-looking Jesuses, and probably no conniving red-haired Judas or ravishing blonde Mary Magdalen etc etc.

I've always taken red-hair to be associated with what could crudely be called Celtic ancestry (thus scots and irish: I have both 1 generation back, so that must be where my reddish-ness is coming from!!).

The veracity of this account is supported by the belief that only Irish people have the right kind of feet for Irish dancing. Mother Magdelene spoke!

MJKB wrote:

The veracity of this account is supported by the belief that only Irish people have the right kind of feet for Irish dancing. Mother Magdelene spoke!

Sorry but I have to ask... what are the right kind of feet for Irish dancing?!

Post subject: Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School Reply with quote
Sarah_G-G wrote:
MJKB wrote:
The veracity of this account is supported by the belief that only Irish people have the right kind of feet for Irish dancing. Mother Magdelene spoke!

Sorry but I have to ask... what are the right kind of feet for Irish dancing?!

Then clearly my parents lied to me, and I was adopted from another country! I don't think I have a slipjig in me

(They were performed en mass on the street by red-bearded leprechauns, people in shamrock boppers, an entire rugby team of women wearing daffodil haddresses, and people wearing hats shaped like dragons on their heads. I rather coveted the daffodil headdresses, which were seriously cool...)

Then clearly my parents lied to me, and I was adopted from another country! I don't think I have a slipjig in me

Author:	Róisín [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject:	Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Synopsis here. Is Flavia's (Copper's) story of changed surnames, secrecy and a detective father plausible? Was EBD at all au-fait with this type of subject matter? Should Len have been trusted with keeping an eye on Copper or was this too much of a burden for her, still a schoolgirl herself? Do you like Copper as a character, or is she just another one-hit-wonder girl who shines only for the purposes of one plot? Please discuss, and raise any issues that you like, below Next Sunday: Adrienne and the Chalet School

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
It is a bit silly, but it makes a change from the new-girl-is-reformed-by-someone-butting-in and girls-are-stranded-by-avalanche plots which were becoming way too repetitive by this stage in the series, so credit to EBD for trying something different. Also, this is a very rare case in the post-war books of CS girls having to face the fact that there are "bad people" in the world. There are a lot of crises in the world of the Swiss CS, but they're generally caused by accidents, illnesses or bad weather: this might not be the most realistic of storylines but at least it might have made the girls realise that unfortunately the world isn't as cosy a place as they might think. Or maybe I've just made too much of it all! Copper is a lovely character - shame that we don't see more of her later on. Also, I love the fact that Gaudenz gets to be the hero! It's a shame he was already married: surely if he'd been single then Hilda would have fallen into his arms afterwards ... .

Author:	miss_maeve [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
This is probably one of my least favourite storylines, although, as Alison points out, it does bring the fact that there ARE bad people in the world into the story. I like Flavia a lot - she seems a very realistic character. I think good Head Girl material in the making, and it is a shame that we never find out if she'd have made it or not.

Author:	Margaret [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I agree that introducing 'bad people' to the series was good, and possibly by the time 'Redheads' was written well overdue, but Flavia's father travelling with her in the same compartment? Honestly that wouldn't have kept her location secret for a moment.

Author:	JayB [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I like Flavia. It's nice to have a character who is just sensible, dependable and all round nice, without any particular talent or anything to make her different or special. And I like her father, and the fact that the two of them are realistic about the fact that he can't really afford to keep Flavia at the CS and she might have to leave after a year. It's good to see acknowledgement that it is expensive, when so many fairly ordinary families seem to have no problem finding the fees for not just one but two or three daughters. The plot is unrealistic, but I wonder if it's any more unrealistic in the 1950s/1960s than Princess was in the 1920s/1930s? And as Alison says, EBD did need some new storylines, having used all the old ones too many times.

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Books: Redheads at the Chalet School http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5768

Author:	Emma A [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I rather enjoyed Redheads, seeing EBD try out a thriller plot in the familiar setting, and there were only minor implausibilities (or no more so than a lot of thrillers!). I really liked Copper, and the relationship between her and her step-father is strong and affectionate. I even thought that Val's kidnapping was quite well done, as was her motivation for running off.

Author:	Cel [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
This was my first CS book! And also my only hardback to date A bit of an odd choice to start the series with, I know, but it was a hand-me-down from an older cousin and I just fell in love with the series immediately. So this one has a special place in my heart. I like the far-fetched storyline; as others have said, it's something a bit different (and no more unlikely than the ridiculous 'long-lost relative' plots of this era of the CS). Although I'm always struck by the sheer randomness of the gang's plan - hang about on the Platz waiting for red-haired schoolgirls to wander past, and don't even bother to check it's the right one? I could be wrong as I don't have the book to hand, but at this stage they don't even know for sure which part of Switzerland she's in, do they? Were there various gang members stationed on all the other Platzes in the area? Also agree with Margaret about Copper and her Dad sharing a railway compartment en route to the school - not very 'stealth', Inspector Letton... Love Copper as a character, though - a completely ordinary schoolgirl who's just nice.

Author:	Nightwing [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Emma A wrote: I rather enjoyed Redheads, seeing EBD try out a thriller plot in the familiar setting, and there were only minor implausibilities (or no more so than a lot of thrillers!) I agree - I grew up reading Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys books, and Redheads isn't any more or less realistic than most of the plots of those books (and Nancy Drew is a redhead, for the record!) As others have said, I loved Copper and would have liked to have seen more of her - it's a pity that EBD didn't settle on her, rather than Jack, as her next heroine, although I think this is the first book in which Jack starts to grow up a little. I love that Val can taste that the milk she drinks is dosed, though - clearly the bad guys didn't go to the Matron and Jem school of milk-dosing!

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I only read this one relatively recently for the first time, and I was a bit taken aback at how chilling I found it. I kept giggling at the beginning about how thriller-like moments kept collapsing into very familiar CS stuff - eg one minute Copper and her father are having to pretend to be strangers on the train, and there are all those warnings about his job and criminals, and then, the second she gets off the train, she's whisked off to a patisserie by the mistresses, and there's the usual stuff about being introduced to the 'pleasant continental custom' of choosing her own cakes at the counter. And then there's the hilariously incompetent American gangster's moll, wandering about looking for redheads in Switzerland, and saying 'Phooey!' out loud to herself. Some of the transitions between the usual CS stuff and the thriller stuff are really rocky, like when Miss Annersley, who's just broken it to Copper that a dangerous criminal gang is after her, nonetheless ticks her off for using the expression 'having kittens'! Or when Joey, whom Hilda keeps consulting like she's Interpol, apparently seriously suggests reviving the CS Pets Club, rather than getting police protection for Copper! And it kills me that even the doped milk is still, as always in CS-land, 'rich with cream' (only the best doped milk!), and that the hard-bitten female gang member is doing embroidery when Val is brought to their safe-house! But then it gets really chilling - way more so than, say, a Famous Five book, where no one is killed or really threatened with bodily harm. Here you have murders, all those horrible hints about what will be done to Copper if the gang kidnaps her - that she'll be returned 'but not the same girl', and the Special Branch man assuming they plan to maim or disfigure her in some way, and then Letton saying he thinks they meant they were going to 'turn her into a drug addict'. And Hilda being held at gunpoint - and some quite nasty injuries in the fight sequence (in which Gaudenz is terribly cool!) It's as though EBD started off completely uninterested in the thriller, which she was only using for a new angle, but wrote herself into it over the course of the book.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
It always amused me because she went on so much about the things children watched/read nowadays, and how they expected a murder mystery in everything, and then she wrote one anyway I love seeing CS characters, so sheltered and naive, having to face off possibly the most Bristish gangsters ever - I can just imagine the conversation: "Should we feed her the dope? Better put it in some milk, we don't want to be rude." The only thing which could have made it better is if it turned out Hilda had actually enrolled as an undercover agent and was there just to protect Copper. Or Joey pulling a hand gun out of one of her massive coils, then telling Jack later on that she really didn't need a man in the situation.

Author:	jennifer [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I like Flavia, and would like to have seen her as head girl later on. But I do find the whole gangster/international criminal gang/kidnapping/doping thing a bit over the top. What gets me in stories like this is the school's total lack of responsibility to the rest of the students. They agree to take in a student under an assumed name, because she is being threatened by a ruthless gang of international criminals, and with a pretty poor plan for actually hiding her. There's no additional support, no officials to contact for support if they are worried, no police presence at the school at all, even when it's clear that the criminals are around. The other students are put in serious jeopardy as a result - Val and Len in particular. And poor Val, who is told that it's her own fault for being kidnapped, because she had snuck off to see her brother. Yes, she shouldn't have been out, but the school had at least as much responsibility for not warning the students about the danger.

Author:	Cat C [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Quote: Some of the transitions between the usual CS stuff and the thriller stuff are really rocky, like when Miss Annersley, who's just broken it to Copper that a dangerous criminal gang is after her, nonetheless ticks her off for using the expression 'having kittens'! Or when Joey, whom Hilda keeps consulting like she's Interpol, apparently seriously suggests reviving the CS Pets Club, rather than getting police protection for Copper! I have only the haziest memories of this book (read it once, about ten years ago), but that sounds a bit reminiscent of Harry Potter. On the one hand, he's the annointed saviour of wizard kind, on the other, he's a school-boy, struggling with homework and friendships and growing up.

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
jennifer wrote: The other students are put in serious jeopardy as a result - Val and Len in particular. Yes, absolutely - a known multiple killer succeeds in getting into the school (even after the murders of the two other gang members, so it's not as though the CS doesn't know the seriousness of the situation, and that it is a potential target!) Quite apart from kidnapping Val - and what would have happened to her if they decided that silencing her was crucial, or if they didn't realise they had the wrong girl? - and from the fact it seems entirely possible he would have shot Hilda and Rosalie, even as matters end up the fight is quite violent. The criminal breaks Copper's collar-bone and kicks her in the face (which I was quite shocked by!) and Rosalie gets punched in the face, while Len is lucky to be only bruised and sore. I can't help feeling that the fight needed to be 'fixed' so that only a staff member and the girl who brought the trouble on the CS (to speak) were noticeably hurt. What would have happened if Len had been shot - would Joey have regretted telling Hilda not to 'be an ass' and that Copper would be perfectly safe at Freudesheim, as long as she came with the triplets, because Len 'knows what's in the wind'? It sometimes seems in this book that both Joey and Hilda confuse 'safety' with 'supervision' - just before the killer got in, Hilda was considering letting Copper go off to Zurich with her form! But the moment that really gobsmacks me in this novel is when Val's mother is told not to 'pet her' when she's returned unharmed after six days of being held by ruthless criminals, because she'd broken bounds to see her brother: Quote: "I know it's asking a lot of you," the Head said apolo¬getically, "but Dr Maynard says that the less fuss we make about her adventure the better for her. Also she mustn't be allowed to think that she can get away with that sort of thing." [...] Luckily Nurse arrived just then with a tray. [...] She was not in the least prepared to make a fuss of the sinner. Like most folk at the school, now that the worry was over she felt very indignant about the affair. Now, I can entirely imagine various CS authority figures secretly feeling furious with Val, but for God's sake, she's just undergone what is probably the most genuinely dangerous ordeal of any CS girl, and her mother has feared she was dead! The CS is at least arguably responsible for the fact that she was able to break bounds, so surely it should just be thanking its stars she's OK? My single favourite detail (other than the creamy doped milk) is that the ruthless criminal gang, when they abandon a drugged Val on the train, leave a note carefully telling her finder that her ticket is in her coat pocket! Because these guys will murder happily, but not try to cop a free ride for one of their victims...

Author:	Cat C [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
You know, having read this thread, I'm now tempted to re-read Redheads with a view to writing a Thursday Next cross-over drabble, where the LiteraryTech agents are trying to avert a cross-genre guerilla invasion by bored action-thriller generics. Hmmmm.

Author:	jennifer [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Nightwing wrote: I agree about having brown hair though - it always seemed that only plain, sensible characters got cursed with brown hair... Yeah. I always wanted red hair, like AOGG - not the plain, straight, stubborn mid-brown version I got. I'm trying to think of famous GO characters with plain brown hair. EBD Joey: Black hair and eyes Len: Curly Chestnut and Violet Margot: Curly Golden red and blue Con: Black and Black Mary-Lou: Curly yellow and blue LMM Anne of Green Gables: Red and grey Emily of New Moon: Black and (I think) black EJO Joy and Joan Shirley and descendants: copper and warm brown Rosamund Kane and descendants: Blond and Blue Jen Robins: Curly Blond and Blue Maidlin di Ravarati: Black and Black I can think of Laura in the Little House books, and Jo March in Little Women - any others?

Author:	Emma A [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Yes, Cat! Write it, write it!

Author:	Cat C [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Your enthusiasm is flattering I suspect it would be more TN than CS though, if that matters. Small matter of thesis revision meantime, even if the rate my supervisors are (not) providing feed-back means that's less of an issue than it should be. ETA: Just having a look at the beginning from the transcripts site, and this bit: Quote: ...she shrewdly guessed that Miss Jack was a good deal of a featherhead. Jack's special chum, Wanda von Eschenau, attracted her more. Wanda was small, dainty and unusually lovely, with long golden curls, deep violet eyes and perfect features. Copper soon saw that quiet as Wanda was in general, she frequently acted as a brake on Jack's wilder exploits. Two more of the same gang-they were known as the Gang by most folk... Most definitely looks as though EBD was trying to mould Jack and Co as the successors to OOAOML and her gang. Apart from the featherhead bit, that is; otherwise, strong leader, with a small dainty girl acting as a brake, leading a 'gang'.

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Cat C wrote: Quote: ...she shrewdly guessed that Miss Jack was a good deal of a featherhead. Jack's special chum, Wanda von Eschenau, attracted her more. Wanda was small, dainty and unusually lovely, with long golden curls, deep violet eyes and perfect features. Copper soon saw that quiet as Wanda was in general, she frequently acted as a brake on Jack's wilder exploits. Two more of the same gang-they were known as the Gang by most folk... Funny that. I'd never have described Jack as a 'featherhead', bully, yes, violent, yes again, downright nasty when she feels the urge, definetly, but 'featherhead'? I think not.

Author:	Sunglass [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
That struck me as odd, too - 'featherhead' to me has connotations of silliness and general light-mindedness that I wouldn't associate with dominating, dogged Jack at all. (I might call Joyce Linton or Rosalie Way a featherhead, but not Jack!) The thing that's weird about it is that the way it's phrased - Copper 'shrewdly guesses' - which suggests EBD thinks she's right in her assessment...

Author:	Nightwing [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I wouldn't have described her as a "featherhead" either, but I would call her thoughtless, which I think is what EBD was trying to drive at - she just picked the wrong synonym!

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Nightwing wrote: I wouldn't have described her as a "featherhead" either, but I would call her thoughtless, which I think is what EBD was trying to drive at - she just picked the wrong synonym! I'm not even certain that I'd describe her as thoughtless. I think she put a great deal of thought into intimidating other girls. But well done to Copper for not succumbing to her 'charms'. Love the name Copper, btw. As a red head I congratulate EBD for not calling her Ginger.

Author:	Sunglass [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
It never really occurred to me that she might (call Copper 'Ginger', I mean). But then EBD, obsessed though she is with giving lots of her characters red hair of various colours (chestnut, copper, red-gold etc), seems to participate in a now-widespread dislike of the hair colour which is these days referred to as 'ginger' in the UK - what I suppose was referred to in the Anne of Green Gables books as 'carrots'. There are various moments throughout the CS series where characters say things like 'But it's a dark red - if it was ginger, you'd have something to complain about!' to red-haired characters. Growing up in Ireland, which (I'm assuming?) has more red-haired people in the population than England (where I live now) does, I'd never really encountered the absolutely vitriolic attitudes to red hair which seem appallingly common here, or not to the same extent, though it was there. And the word 'ginger' wasn't much used in Ireland then, in my experience. People would say 'red-haired', 'red-headed' or maybe 'foxy'. I was a bit taken aback by this Guardian piece on anti-'ginger' prejudice recently: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -prejudice EBD isn't in this league, obviously, nor does she ever represent characters who call someone names because of their red hair, but then I don't think she ever actually gives us a character in the entire series who has 'ginger' hair, despite her large numbers of redheads! Plus she puts her anti-ginger remarks into the mouths of people like Joey and Madge!

Author:	Kathy_S [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
That "featherhead" is used again later, as well: Quote: Jack was here and Jack, featherhead as she was, had a strong vein of reliability in her. If Jack hadn't come to this book with the Jane baggage, I probably would have interpreted her as more thoughtless and immature than nasty. My overall reaction to Redheads is generally amusement. It would fit beautifully as a St. Scholastika's crossover drabble! I loved the plot of the mime -- it read for me as though EBD were making fun of her own book. In the petty details category, was anyone else startled by Len's first reaction here? Quote: Oh, hang Val! Why did she barge off like that, silly clot!" "Jack! En français, s'il te plaît!" snapped Len Maynard who encountered the pair at the bathroom door. What, no slang fines? This book does get a star for (finally) remembering Daisy's credentials: Quote: She's Mrs Maynard's niece or something. I know she used to live at their house when they were in England. Len told me so once. She's a doctor, too, you know, only she doesn't do it any more because she's got three little kids so she hasn't time.

Author:	Sunglass [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Kathy_S wrote: I loved the plot of the mime -- it read for me as though EBD were making fun of her own book. Yes, absolutely - it's very endearing! I think she is definitely making fun of her own book here - especially when you think of it alongside Ruey Richardson's play in Jane, which has the heroine having had a serious illness, coincidentally discovering a relative in an unlikely situation, and lots of simple, god-fearing peasants, and several other EBD -ish things. Come to think of it, doesn't it also have the bad guy pulling a gun on the heroine? Was she already thinking of having an armed criminal in her next book, I wonder?

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Sunglass wrote: It never really occurred to me that she might (call Copper 'Ginger', I mean). But then EBD, obsessed though she is with giving lots of her characters red hair of various colours (chestnut, copper, red-gold etc), seems to participate in a now-widespread dislike of the hair colour which is these days referred to as 'ginger' in the UK Thanks for the excellent site, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the article on 'gingers.' First of all, what actually constitutes ginger? I'm not sure myself. Catherine Tate in her spoof ginger sketch includes all shades from red gold to dark auburn. Others would only describe a bright orange as ginger, especially if it is accompanied by the fair, reddish freckled complexion. My hair has darkened considerably over the years and I'm often surprised when people now describe my colour as brown! I had sort of dark red gold hair but with the usual red head's complexion, fair with freckles. I've never had to use a colour in my hair which saves me a fortune on hair salon bills. I got teased as a child for having red hair but it didn't really bother me that much. And generally, the teasing was fairly good humoured. (If I had a euro for every time some sparkling wit asked me if my mother had kept me out in the rain all night, Rusty - get it? I'd be a billionaire). But now the prejudice against red hair - I refuse to use the g word in this context, is quite viciousl. My daughter, who is 14, has shiny straight red hair with various shades of gold highlights, really gorgeous. She has a fair complexion with freckles, although they're fading fast. She has got so much hassle from other children about her hair that she begged me at one point to allow her dye it. Blonde, of course! Thankfully a trip to New York helped her appreciate its uniquness. I now regard prejudice against red hair in the same light as any form of racism, it has all the same elements. Red heads are regarded as inferior, ugly, stupid, and fair game for public ridicule and abuse. It's time someone put a stop to it

Author:	Kathy_S [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
That's interesting. I'd always envied the people with red hair, despite the complaints of Anne of Green Gables and my grandmother, who said the boys used to chant, "Red head, freckle-face, gingerbread, carrots." The most interesting heroines got the red hair, blond was "attractive" if not beautiful, and raven locks were elegant, but plain old brown came across as boring, if not ugly. Pa Ingalls' reassurance that HIS hair was brown wasn't all that reassuring! Maybe if you had some special, rich version of brown-red, perhaps chestnut or mahogany, but otherwise forget it. Quote: Nancy Drew is a redhead, for the record Actually she started out in 1930 with a "golden bob," translated in the early revisions as blond and blue-eyed, but in later volumes/editions morphed wildly, going as far as titian!

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Kathy_S wrote: Actually she started out in 1930 with a "golden bob," translated in the early revisions as blond and blue-eyed, but in later volumes/editions morphed wildly, going as far as titian! That's really interesting Kathy - she was always a redhead in the books that I read, but I guess I was always reading fairly recent incarnations of her! I always wanted long, straight hair as a kid as that seemed to be generally accepted by my playmates as what girls' hair was supposed to look like - there was one girl in my class who had beautifully long black hair that I was especially jealous of. But when I met her again recently she told me that as a kid she'd always wanted short curly hair like mine, so I suppose it's all relative! I agree about having brown hair though - it always seemed that only plain, sensible characters got cursed with brown hair...

Author:	Tor [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Darryl Rivers in Mallory Towers? Or was she nearer to black - I am sure I remember her as dark brown, but I have never re-read these since childhood, so may be wrong. I long for proper red hair. Always have. And I am sure it comes from Anne worship. My hair i what I hopefully call "secret ginger", in that it is hovers in the dark blonde/light brown sectrum with loads of different colour strands all muddled up. And sometimes, when the light is right, it looks red. But only sometimes Embarrassingly, I was even relieved to note the preponderancy for red-blondes in my SLOCS family (though he is chesnut brown of hair and eyes), as it suggests the lovely red hair gene is hovering in both of us, waiting to burst out gloriously in the next generation. I told him that's the only reason I married him I have a real soft-spot for red-heads (the book)! It felt odd in a CS setting, but didn't strike me as any more far-fetched than Nancy Drew (I only knew her in her titian blonde days) or even famous five at the time. But thinking about others comments, in this and in Jane, I am now wondering if we are seeing a bit of EBD rebellion against the requests of agent/fans/publishers for more action etc, and a battle playing out on the page? Subversive, maybe...?

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
There have been suggestions (in that Guardian piece I linked to and elsewhere I saw it subsequently discussed) that the prejudice against red hair in England was historically related to anti-Irish feeling. EBD clearly doesn't make a connection between the two, though. Her redheads are all English, as far as I can remember (with maybe one Scot?) and all of her Irish characters are dark-haired, blue-eyed and 'glorious'-complexioned. Though I still find it somewhat curious, given the frequency of her beautiful characters being redheads, that she clearly adores all shades of red hair bar what she terms 'ginger', which seems arbitrary. (I agree, MJKB, that it's not a word I've ever used, and it's one I now associate with pure hate - I'm only using it here because EBD certainly means a specific colour by it, even if I find it difficult to see where 'good' red-gold like Margot's ends and a 'bad' colour - which is so 'bad' not one girl at the CS seems to have it - begins!) Also, given that part of the prejudice discussion focused on gender, and it seemed clear that while red-haired women can be seen as striking, unusual, glamorous etc, red-haired boys and men had a harder time - I found myself noticing that, despite the fact that Joey has three red-haired daughters, none of her sons have red hair, and nor are any of the Russell sons (that I can recall) red-haired, despite having at least one red-haired sister - and that's including 'red-gold', 'copper', 'chestnut' etc - all shades she clearly considers beautiful in a girl...

Author:	Lottie [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Sunglass wrote: Also, given that part of the prejudice discussion focused on gender, and it seemed clear that while red-haired women can be seen as striking, unusual, glamorous etc, red-haired boys and men had a harder time - I found myself noticing that, despite the fact that Joey has three red-haired daughters, none of her sons have red hair, and nor are any of the Russell sons (that I can recall) red-haired, despite having at least one red-haired sister - and that's including 'red-gold', 'copper', 'chestnut' etc - all shades she clearly considers beautiful in a girl... Doesn't Geoff have red hair? I thought both he and Phil were red-heads.

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I saw someone interviewed recently on the subject of red hair, and he also said that it's often seen as being attractive on women but less so on men. Geoff Maynard had red hair, and I think that Maurice Bettany did too, but none of the adult men did. Historically, the prejudice against red hair (not my prejudice, I hasted to add - my great-grandma had red hair, and although my mum, my sister and I all have brown hair all three of us have got a red "patch" in it!) arose because Judas was said to have had red hair. I'm fairly sure that the Bible doesn't mention anyone's hair colour so have no idea where that idea came from, but it was widespread in the Middle Ages.

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Oops, forgot Geoff (and had forgotten Maurice even existed ...) I've come across the Judas thing too, but I think the convention emerged in Christian art of the Middle Ages or so, where it was handy for Judas to have some characteristic that made him stand out from the other apostles in paintings, rather than a caption reading 'Bad Guy'. I think 'Judas-coloured' was sometimes used for 'red-haired' in Shakespeare's day. Although, with a red-haired queen...? The Bible, I have to say, would be rather more fun if everyone's hair-colour was specified. But presumably, being set where it is, everyone, or virtually everyone, would be dark-haired, so no more of those curiously Anglo-Saxon-looking Jesuses, and probably no conniving red-haired Judas or ravishing blonde Mary Magdalen etc etc.

Author:	Tor [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
I've always taken red-hair to be associated with what could crudely be called Celtic ancestry (thus scots and irish: I have both 1 generation back, so that must be where my reddish-ness is coming from!!). So there could be every likelihood, given the various battles and power-struggles throughout the ages that the colour became associated with ethnic disputes. Humans are pretty good at prejudice. And the Judas association is likely to be a result rather than a cause of such (perhaps used to stir up further animosity?). There is also the fact that as a recessive trait, red hair would be rare, except in populations where it had gone to fixation, and in a superstitious time, being unusual would often a bad thing (probably liable to get you an accusation of witchcraft, at least, I'd imagine). I never thought of the word 'ginger' being inherently laced with vitriol. And I find it hard to believe that having re-hair actually translates into people thinking you are less clever, able etc or that it even has any real ethnic connotations these days to people. I think it is more on the lines of people feeling free to have and make known their pointless opinions on what they don't find attractive. Like being taunted for being overweight, or being short or tall, etc. Only done by idiots, who unfortunately tend to a vocal minority. But it is true that red-hair has a place in this list of 'taunts' that other hair colours don't. Maybe because it is a rarity, and horrible kids always seem to pick on the unusual? But the flip-side is that rare traits are also often perceived as special and beautiful. Unfortunately, that means one way or another, you will be the subject of commentary.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
Just thought that I'd post this, as I'm re-reading 'Highland Twins' at the moment: Quote: ...Fiona had retaliated with "Redhead" so Sybil had been rather more meek of late. In fairness to Fiona, Sybil did the taunting first, but I just thought that in light of the discussion it was interesting that Fiona picked up on hair colour first - rather than, say, Sybil's definetely superior manner.

Author:	Lulie [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Redheads at the Chalet School
What amazes me is that redheads are vilified yet I see an awful lot of dyed-redheads walking the streets. My own hair is naturally reddish, but far too dishwater for my liking, so it is assisted when I feel down and dull about my appearance!