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Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6303

Author:  abbeybufo [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

EBD refers to many real books and authors throughout the CS series. She mentions Lewis Carroll’s books and characters on several occasions.

The most formal of these mentions is the Alice in Wonderland Sale in Tom Tackles, where the various stalls were set out as the White Rabbit’s House; the Seashore, where Alice and the Gryphon meet the Mock Turtle; the Courtroom where Alice’s Trial was held; the Queen of Hearts’ Garden Party; the Mad Hatter’s Tea-Party; the Queen of Hearts’ Rose Garden; and the Old Sheep’s Shop. All but one of these are from Wonderland; the Sheep’s Shop being from Through the Looking Glass. For the afternoon of the Sale, Nella Ozanne was dressed as ‘Alice’, Miss Phipps as ‘The Old Sheep’, and everyone else in generic 1860s costume.

Another fairly frequent allusion is when a new girl is being shown around the School and her sheepdog keeps telling her to ‘Come on!’ — we are often told that the new girl is feeling like Alice trying to keep up with the Red Queen.

Also from Through the Looking Glass is the reference to ‘plenty of practice’ which is a saying of the White Knight quoted by Joey in New House and the guide at Cadbury's in Changes.

Do you think EBD expects everyone to have been brought up on Alice, and to know the books well enough to pick up these references straight away?

Were any of you inspired to read the Alice books if you didn’t already know them?

Is the allusion to characters in a ‘real’ book something that you like to see in EBD, or does it annoy you?

Are the themed Sales something you read avidly or skip?

Are there any other points of discussion you would like to raise, or any other references to events or characters I haven’t mentioned? [I’m sure the Cheshire Cat is mentioned somewhere, but cannot at the moment find where :oops: ]

Over to you :)

ETA the idea for this series of threads was suggested by maeve

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

References to other books are fine if you "get" them, but if you haven't read the books in question and have no idea what the references mean then they're very annoying :lol: .

I would think that EBD assumed that everyone would have read the Alice books. Probably most people of her generation and the following generation would have been brought up on them: they were amongst the first children's story books other than traditional stories/fairy stories or moralising fable type stories, long pre-dating Enid Blyton, Roald Dahl, AA Milne, etc ... er, I am now very old and have no idea what sort of books very young kids read these days, but you know what I mean!

Some of the characters and expressions are certainly very well known (and were even before Walt Disney made a cartoon film of the book!). "Grinning like a Cheshire Cat"'s become a commonly used phrase because of Lewis Carroll, and although IIRC the idea of "mad hatters" is actually something to do with mercury poisoning :shock: I would think that Lewis Carroll made that expression better known as well. It must still be confusing for people who've never read those particular books, though.

When I was 8, I went to a fancy dress party dressed as the Queen of Hearts, and won the best costume prize. Sorry - just had to share that with everyone :oops: : I do not win many things :lol: .

Author:  Katherine [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I only recently read Alice for the first time and was suprised by just how much of it was familiar; it's so embedded in our culture (although I do recall watching a cartoon of it as a child). So I would think that, even if you haven't read it then the references can still work - or is that my adult view?
I have to confess to missing the 'plenty of practice' stuff though.

As for sales, I read them more thoroughly than I do plays...

Author:  MJKB [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I really like the book references. The only one that slightly annoys me is the one about Anne of GG in Peggy It seems highly unlikely that no one was able to recognise the scene in which Anne breaks a slate over Gilbert's head.
I think it's quite sad that many modern children will fail to recognise references to classics like Alice. The language will not be the richer for it.

Author:  JayB [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I like the book references. Not just the classics, but the references to the girls reading more 'ordinary' books, too. I feel drawn more closely into the CS world if a girl is reading a book that I've also read - it's something we have in common. And the characters' tastes in books tell the reader a little more about them, too.

I've noticed that EBD few times has one of her girls reading a book by her friend Phyllis Matthewman. Did Phyllis reciprocate, does anyone know?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I quite liked the references to the 'Alice' books at least, having read them, though some of them go right over my head! In fact, I found myself the other day I found myself apologising to someone at work for saying 'Come on!' all the time like I'd stepped out of 'Alice in Wonderland', so clearly the referencing is rubbing off.

I think it gives an analogy that the reader can, for the most part, relate to, as well. By saying that the new girls are told to 'Come on!' like that, EBD is able to phrase very neatly what otherwise might have taken up a page or two explaining, and could have been very boring for the reader.

Author:  JB [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I think EBD expected her readers to know the book. The references are sprinkled in there without explanation, unlike, say The Crown of Sucess where some of the prefects explain to the others what it's about.

I was discussing Alice with colleagues a couple of weeks ago in the context of a theatre production and we agreed that it was pretty much universally recognised which made it easier to "sell" to an audience.

I can't remember when I first read Alice. I remember I had an edition of Wonderland and Looking Glass together, one of those Dean board backed books or similar. I don't remember not being aware of the story.

I also had (still have actually :oops:) an Alice in Wonderland rag doll that a family friend made for me and I won a surreal Alice in Wonderland board game at Silver Jubilee street party. It was very odd, when you rolled a certain number, you went "thorugh the looking glass" and the rules changed.

I do like references to real books as generally I enjoy things which give a context to the book and characters. Whenever I think of Angela Thirkell, I remember that's the book that Hilary bought in Problem.

I read themed sales but skip Christmas plays and pantomimes.

There's a Tim Burton film of Alice with Johnny Depp out next spring btw.

Author:  judithR [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Whenever I think of Angela Thirkell, I remember that's the book that Hilary bought in Problem.


Has anyone read any Angela Thirkell? My parents have a few wartime editions. I found them very heavy going when I was in my teens.

Author:  delrima [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

My other fave author besides EBD :lol: I've just started this last year or so collecting hers and a lot of them (hb) are very cheap on Abebooks etc. Some seem quite rare and expensive though.

Most of them don't really have much of a plot exactly, more a comedy of manners sort of. I much prefer the pre-war ones (like EBD) for the period atmosphere and they are fraitfully snobbish in parts - all symptoms of the times... Although in some ways she is very forward thinking and liberal e.g. her two ladies who live together and folks wonder "who's the man" without any hint of censure or non-acceptance. She also tends to laugh at the snobbishness in her own way with a rather rough, uneducated, self-made man who becomes a labour MP and gradually becomes accepted because he is a genuinely good person (and marries into the county families) and he eventually sees the light!!

I always wondered if the books about Hampton and Bent (the two ladies :mrgreen: ) were allowed on the CS library shelves....

Author:  trig [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I enjoy the book references as it makes a link between the characters and me, as someone else said. I'm sure even most modern children would understand the references to Alice as there's been a few good dramatizations of it. I've often thought, though, that this is one of those books which might be aimed at adults. I remember being a bit frightened of it when I was younger!

I'm a regular play-skipper but I like the sales - my favourites being the one in Lintons and the one when Tom first makes the house. I really want one of those houses...

The sales are one of the more realistic aspects of the series, as similar things happen every year at my children's school, down to cringing themes, although not the beautiful handmade lace and fretwork puzzles....

Author:  judithR [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

delrima wrote:
I always wondered if the books about Hampton and Bent (the two ladies ) were allowed on the CS library shelves....


In the staff section?

Author:  MaryR [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I love references to books, but then I am doing it myself in my own writing so can't really complain, :roll: though I do usually explain the quotes. If I think it's something a lot of people will know, I don't, but even if only a few get the reference it's still worth it. Hopefully, it encourages people to tackle books they wouldn't otherwise consider.

With reference to themed Sales, I have to confess, abbeybufo, to skipping them. Ditto the plays. :oops:

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I read all of it-sales, plays, everything. Sad I know :lol: I was always disappointed that except for Con an adult always seemed to win the dollshouse. It was really for kids and it would have been nice to see someone other than the opener of the sale win the house. Always l;oved the fact that Con won it twice

Author:  tiffinata [ Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

most of my books are PBs. I think from memory she mentions a book called 'Guide Gilly' in reference to Gisela's name in School at.
Certainly mentions Jane Austin and Georgette Heyer.

Author:  Emma A [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I do like the references to other books (and to plays and music), because it places the series in a context that we know to be real, and rounds out the characters a little more - Bill reading William, for example, and Jennifer reading Gone With The Wind (or Forever Amber, whichever edition you read!) to her chums. I suppose it's interesting to see which books EBD thought were embedded in the national consciousness, such as Alice, and which needed explanation, such as Crown of Success. The latter sale is referred to frequently in subsequent books, but I don't think I've ever read the book in which it appears.

I think it's surprising that they didn't use a book-themed Sale more often, since it would have been a lot easier to think of incidents and costumes. Obviously the series was aimed at English-speaking readers, but I do find it surprising that so few of the Sales use Continental themes, and the European pupils seem just as familiar with standard English texts as the English girls do!

Author:  LucyP [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I have always been fascinated by the 'Crown of Success' sale, based on the book by A.L.O.E., and recently read the original on Project Gutenberg. Absolutely brilliant - I heartily recommend it. I've also browsed some Charlotte Yonge after EBD's mentions. The 'Elsie' books are there as well - they are absolutely dreadful!

Author:  mohini [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

I enjoyed the references made by EDB though there are some books about which I haven't heard. Like Crown of Success or Elsie Books.
Having read Alice, I could recall some of the references.
I read about the sales in detail but do not enjoy the plays very much maybe because not being a Christian I cannot understand the character or what they portray or signify. So I cannot do justice to the beauty of the play.
Were the girls allowed to read Georgette Heyer? Some are murder stories and rest are romances.

Author:  Mia [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

Surely as Alice is so embedded in the national consciousness and many phrases have transcended its publication - e.g as Alison says, "grinning like a Cheshire cat" that it isn't even an issue that readers would be unfamiliar with these. Even today I would be very confident in stating that the vast majority of people reading books wouldn't be thrown by an Alice reference and even people who hadn't read it would know parts, ie the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. I personally read Alice (or had it read to me!) when I was quite small and before I read any Chalets. A similar example would be Charles Dickens - maybe not everyone has read his novels but surely everyone knows what it means if one calls somebody a Scrooge.

I think there are two aspects to this discussion really - the references to English literature as they enrich the English language (Lewis Carroll, Dickens, etc) and mentions of actual books that could date, for example, the Phyllis Matthewman book as someone else points out above.

Is this going to be part of a series discussing individual books within the CS series? I only ask because I have an essay I wrote on the political references/satire in Alice that I could post parts of if I could find it - but if it's a series of FD threads about how well we know certain books mentioned ourselves/our own reading experiences, etc I won't as it's probably not of interest?

Author:  abbeybufo [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

Mia wrote:
Is this going to be part of a series discussing individual books within the CS series?

This is intended to be the first of a series of FD threads which take 'real' books that are mentioned in the CS and discuss their place/relevance within the series/book they appear in.

Larger and more general questions seemed worth mentioning as this was the first of the batch, and the next one isn't due for a while yet - and particularly as Carroll is such a well-known author - which is why he was selected for 'first go'.

Author:  Tor [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

Mia, I'd really like it if you did post extracts from your essay. It's always lovely when we wander off down random paths during discussions, but if this is going to be a series of discussions where we want to focus a bit on specific books, and how they fit within broader themes in the CS, then I think your essay would provide a really good way of starting/focussing that sort of discussion.

So if you're happy too do so, I'd be really grateful!

The surrealism and nonsense rhyme of Alice always strikes me as being rather at odds with the CS. I found it quite an upsetting book as a child! Still, as it was already a children's classic by the time EBD was writing, I suspect it was a conveniently well-known, character heavy, 'respectable' book suitable for a sale theme.

Still, young girl gets bored with lessons, wanders off and falls down a rabbit hole, and shortly after gets swept off by a flood is a pretty good CS plot-line!

Author:  abbeybufo [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

Tor wrote:
Still, young girl gets bored with lessons, wanders off and falls down a rabbit hole, and shortly after gets swept off by a flood is a pretty good CS plot-line!


:lol: :lol:

And Mia, I also meant to say that your essay, or parts thereof, would be great to see here.

Author:  Mia [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

The clever thing about Alice is that it really does seem to be surrealist and nonsensical but it's actually not at all random - it's all about logic and maths and science. I'm sure I read somewhere that it's an allegory about growing up and leaving your childhood behind and joining the strange world of adulthood (hence why Alice doesn't understand why the various people she meets have the ridiculous, self-imposed rules) so it is suitable in a way for the Chalet School - similar theme of progressing through childhood maybe? Through the Looking Glass is meant, IIRC, to be about social mobility/social climbing.

Isn't it terrible that I thought of Dodgson himself and Alice and Ina Liddell and thought of Reg Entwistle immediately - perhaps he was the inspiration for that whole plotline! :lol:

[No luck so far finding the essay I'm afraid - I wrote it when I was fourteen for school in the pre-computer age - it wouldn't be relevant to CS anyway though]

Author:  KathrynW [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: Lewis Carroll

JB wrote:
There's a Tim Burton film of Alice with Johnny Depp out next spring btw.


There are some pictures in this month's Vanity Fair (I'm all about the intellectual...) and it looks wonderfully eccentric and amazing. I'm really looking forward to it.

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