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Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6634
Author:  Lottie [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
The Elsie books are mentioned by EBD in some of the earliest books in the series. There are twenty-eight books which were written by Martha Finley between 1867 and 1905. Wikipedia has an article about them, which includes references to the CS. There are also links to transcripts to fifteen of them.

Do you think EBD had read them herself? Why did Dr. Jem have a set of them while he was travelling in Europe? Why hadn’t he sent them straight to his aunt when he found them? Was he a closet Elsie reader? Why did Joey choose to write an Elsie book rather than a general school story? What about the references to the Klu KLux Klan in Rivals? Do you have any other thoughts about EBD and the Elsie books.

Thanks to maeve for the idea.
Author:  JB [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Lottie wrote:

Quote:
Why did Dr. Jem have a set of them while he was travelling in Europe?


Dr Jem was obviously a spy (this would explain other things which are difficult to reconcile such as his ability to speak Afrikaans) and he needs the Elsie books for his code-breaking.

Overcome by his feelings for the lovely Madge Bettany, he offers the books to Joey, as it will impress Madge if he's nice to her sister. He then has to think of an excuse as to why he has the books and comes up with the rather feeble story of his aunt.

More seriously, there's a family in The School by the River called Travilla, which links back to the Elsie books. In the intro, Helen McClelland speculates that perhaps EBD wrote her own Elsie book in her youth and she's using some of the characters here. I quite like this explanation. They're obviously books which EBD knew fairly well. Were they widely known in the UK in the 1920s?

I've never understood the Klu Klux Klan reference in Rivals ie why anyone should think it desirable to copy them and I wonder how much EBD actually knew about them. Does anyone know how they're treated in the Elsie books.

I've never read an Elsie book and i'm not sure I have the backbone to try. :wink:
Author:  Cumbrian Rachel [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I'm currently reading through the Elsie books (thanks to them being available online) and am finding them strangely compelling :oops:

I suspect EBD must have read some of them... For instance there's this game called family stage coach which has a certain similarity to family coach... I'm currently reading Elsie's Widowhood and there's quite a bit of stuff about Elsie's eldest daughter, also called Elsie being nothing but a blessing since she was born - that seems to ring certain bells as well.

However, I'm not convinced that EBD read Elsie's Motherhood which deals with the Ku Klux Klan which is treated as a very bad thing in it and doesn't quite seem to match with the impression the middles get of it.
Author:  Elle [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Cumbrian Rachel wrote:
I'm currently reading through the Elsie books (thanks to them being available online) and am finding them strangely compelling :oops:




Oooh... Where? Can I have a link please?

I am assuming that EBD did not understand the KKK. I suspect she may have been influenced by the Gone With the Wind suggestion (proud confederate men protecting their women), and had no idea about how awful the KKK really are.
Author:  Cel [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I read about half of the first book, but I just couldn't get through the endless cycle of fight-followed-by-tearful-reconciliation between Elsie and her father. I did like other parts, though, so I must give them another try.
Author:  Squirrel [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Elle wrote:
Cumbrian Rachel wrote:
I'm currently reading through the Elsie books (thanks to them being available online) and am finding them strangely compelling :oops:




Oooh... Where? Can I have a link please?


Elle - if you click on the link to Wikipedia (in other words, the word Wikipedia, for that is the link...) at the top of this thread, it will give you links directly to the 'project guttenberg' copies of the various Elsie transcripts. You click on the link, then on one of several choices of ways to download. That should open/save a version to your computer for you.

Hope that helps!
Author:  Elle [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Squirrel wrote:
Elle wrote:
Cumbrian Rachel wrote:
I'm currently reading through the Elsie books (thanks to them being available online) and am finding them strangely compelling :oops:




Oooh... Where? Can I have a link please?


Elle - if you click on the link to Wikipedia (in other words, the word Wikipedia, for that is the link...) at the top of this thread, it will give you links directly to the 'project guttenberg' copies of the various Elsie transcripts. You click on the link, then on one of several choices of ways to download. That should open/save a version to your computer for you.

Hope that helps!


Brilliant, thanks!
Author:  JS [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I have Elsie's Girlhood (bought at much the same times as Forever Amber :oops: ) and I'm afraid I haven't read either - just look too daunting. Maybe give them a go now, as others seem to like them.

Somebody else mentioned on another thread that Joey's own 'Elsie' book was actually a foray into drabbling. I rather liked that idea.
Author:  Jennie [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
They're on Project Gutenberg. Grr! I keep telling people about PG, but no-one seems to go on there.
Author:  Cumbrian Rachel [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
They're not all on PG :( . I got to Elsie's Widowhood and found it wasn't there but a search took me to this site which has some more on it....
Author:  Catrin [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I've read the first Elsie book, and the first Pollyanna, and I'm never sure who I want to strangle the most.

Perhaps Jem has the same issues I have with posting things - if they haven't been carried around in my handbag for at least a week, they aren't ready face the UK postal system, so I can't imagine how grown up a letter might need to be to face a trans-European journey . . .
Author:  abbeybufo [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
They've also been discussed in the Anything Else thread on the CBB several times - archive links:

Elsie Books,
Klu Klux Klan and the Elsie Books,
Klu Klux Klan again
and
Elsie Dinsmore
if anyone wants to revisit them...
Author:  Newiegirl [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I've never read the originals but couldn't resist the abridged and apparently toned down versions of eight Elsie books re-released by a publisher that specialises in 'Christian role models' (from which you can also purchase an Elsie doll: http://www.alof.com).

Hilarious.
Author:  valerievengeance [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
After reading this thread yesterday I tracked down the first Elsie book on PG and got stuck in.

Dear Gods.

Anyone else feel inclined to strangle her a few paragraphs in, and put generations of children out of their misery? I count myself as a voracious reader, much in the line of Miss Bettany herself, but Jo must have been really, really bored to have read those.
Author:  Jennie [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I completely agree about the Elsie Books.

My preferred solution would have been to set fire to the house and the whole boiling of them.

I just longed to give Elsie a good slapping.
Author:  Nightwing [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Newiegirl wrote:
I've never read the originals but couldn't resist the abridged and apparently toned down versions of eight Elsie books re-released by a publisher that specialises in 'Christian role models' (from which you can also purchase an Elsie doll: http://www.alof.com).


Just that site's description was enough to put me off the Elsie books - she's beautiful, rich, and everyone hates her because of how good she is. Ugh! Give me a plain and mischievous heroine any day!
Author:  JS [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
A doll :shock: . Wow.
Author:  Newiegirl [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
It is a truly revolting doll.

I loved reading the books though - first time I've ever read about a small child being bullied and thought 'good'.
Author:  JennieP [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Now torn between wanting to read them for curiosity's sake, and being completely put off them...
Author:  Kadi [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I can't understand why EBD used the KKK plot in Rivals when Martha Finley clearly portrays them in a negative light and shows just how vile their deeds were. Surely the middles didn't plan to use violence or even kill members of the rival school.

As a side note, I noticed in the same Elsie book that some of the characters talked about the bad health effects of smoking. I wasn't aware before that anyone before the 20th century knew that smoking was bad for your health.
Author:  hac61 [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Kadi wrote:
I can't understand why EBD used the KKK plot in Rivals when Martha Finley clearly portrays them in a negative light and shows just how vile their deeds were. Surely the middles didn't plan to use violence or even kill members of the rival school.


Maybe they intended to just break the windows and scrawl signs and slogans on the walls. That's what happened to some friends of mine back in the 80's.


hac
Author:  Alison H [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
The religious prejudice in the early books really got me - I appreciate that there was anti-Catholic feeling in some sectors of American society at the time but I found it very offensive: it was more like something written in the 17th century than the 19th or 20th. I can't imagine EBD enjoying the books for that reason.

The instant obedience stuff in the later books was creepy too. I can't imagine even the strictest CS fathers telling their daughters that they won't love them or think of them as members of their family unless they obey every word and don't do anything without permission, which is what Elsie's son-in-law does.

I only read these for the American Civil War parts, and there weren't any in the end because Martha Finlay sent Elsie to Europe during the war!!
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
Alison H wrote:
I can't imagine even the strictest CS fathers telling their daughters that they won't love them or think of them as members of their family unless they obey every word and don't do anything without permission, which is what Elsie's son-in-law does.


Although not quite as wholesale as that, I do think that Jack's approach comes quite close to that - maybe not so much as regarding the latter condition, but certainly when they disobey something his response seems to be to freeze them out.

Also, I think, to a lesser extent, Richenda's father. He sends her away to a school as a punishment, which, IIRC, suggests to her that he doesn't love her.

Of course, this doesn't sound nearly as strict as what you've described, but there is certainly an element of it in the CS discipline (by fathers, at least) for me.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
hac61 wrote:
Kadi wrote:
I can't understand why EBD used the KKK plot in Rivals when Martha Finley clearly portrays them in a negative light and shows just how vile their deeds were. Surely the middles didn't plan to use violence or even kill members of the rival school.


Maybe they intended to just break the windows and scrawl signs and slogans on the walls. That's what happened to some friends of mine back in the 80's.


I can't imagine EBD would have intended even the worst CS girl to intend any such thing! It would have merited instant expulsion, apart from anything else, and I don't think EBD would have wanted her readers in a thousand years to imagine that CS girls were capable of such vandalism.

I'm another who's interested by the KKK puzzle in Rivals - I've only skimmed the Elsie book in question on Project Gutenberg, but it's perfectly clear that they are a vile and murderous organisation, which you would imagine would have revolted rather than excited the CS girls. You do wonder whether EBD can possibly have read it, but if she didn't, why on earth have the Middles apparently uncritically absorbing ideas from it? There's such stress on forbidden books at intervals throughout the CS, like the Forever Amber/Gone with the Wind plot in Wrong - and that rather un-environmentally-friendly moment in School by the River, where Mrs Travilla throws two of three 'cheap' novels her daughter is reading out the window of a moving train!

But if a bunch of averagely intelligent Middles is capable of reading that Elsie book and somehow not absorbing the fact that the KKK are unspeakably vile, rather than vaguely exciting, then I wonder whether they should be allowed to read any novels without a supervising adult! It does just seem ironic that probably the most nasty set of ideas that comes into the CS via fiction comes, not through a bodice -ripper, but through a non-forbidden book which is actually supplied by Joey!
Author:  Kate [ Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I wonder if there were abridged versions available that EBD might have read with rather less information on the KKK?
Author:  Bethannie [ Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Real Books in the CS: The Elsie Books
I have to admit to rather loving the Elsie books!

I started reading them because I read about them in the Chalet Books! I now have two shelves full of hardback Elsies!

The modern reworkings are nowhere near as good, I have read a few and would not recommend them.

The early books can be a bit heavy-going if you are not into children's evangelical works. However, once Elsie grows up the books become better. I like the stories with the Raymond family (Levis Raymond marries Vi Travilla , Elsie's daughter and brings 3 step children into the family).

In Elsie's childhood it isn't the religious aspect I find disturbing, but the amount of time she spends on her father's knee - and this goes on into her teens and early twenties!...she sits on her father's lap, he strokes her hair and kisses her on the lips! And when she marries it is to someone only a couple of years younger than her father - and he has 'loved' her since they first met - she was a little child! You couldn't get away with writing that today!

I actually thing EBD had read the unabridged originals. The religious aspect of the books is actually not that strong (I collect evangelical works for children....and they get much worse than the Elsie books, believe me!). The KKK incident, I felt was well written. Exciting and probably accurate. I can well imagine Corney and co loving it!
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