The CBB :: View topic - Other Schools: Village Schools

I never really thought about it when I was reading the books as a kid, but I think Biddy going to the local village school is a little bizarre - wouldn't they have spoken German there?!

I guess this is the class system at work, although in Exploits we’re told that one of the juniors has a father who’s an army sergeant and a mother who was a lady’s maid (when the girls are trying to talk Thekla out of her snobbiness).

I always assumed that the junior referred to was Biddy.

For comparison, the situation now where I live is that some of the "village schools" are really excellent

Just for the record, the Princess Royal sent her children to an ordinary primary school in Minchinhampton for their early years education, until they were old enough for prep school.

I agree Jennie, I am fairly sure it is a class thing for eBD. But I also wonder whether it is a reflection of two other things on her part: (i) her age - her idea of a village school might well be based on a depression-era type of local school

Compare this to the much more truly rural schools in Anne of GG, of Laura Ingalls-Wilder, where they are seen as the clear route into middle class professions and university for those pupils who are able.

Actually, contrary to my above paragraph - I wonder if maybe *I* am seeing village schools of the early 20th century through the class-bound attitudes of EBD (and EB etc), and besmirching them unfairly...? Because, of course, Anne of GG and the Little House books are written from the point of view of the working-class attendees of those schools.

I never really thought about it when I was reading the books as a kid, but I think Biddy going to the local village school is a little bizarre - wouldn't they have spoken German there?!

To be fair to EBD, though, in Island Joey refuses to allow Stephen to go to the CS as planned, so she and Jack send him to the local school. I'm sure Joey says something along the lines of "Miss So-and So keeps them in good order" and the only worrying thing is some undesirable language which Joey is happy to "deal with". But then Stephen is a boy...

What is the difference between an Independent school and a grant aided school?

It had at ﬁrst been decided to train her as a lady’s-maid; but Biddy was clever, and soon showed that she would repay any pains spent on her education. So she had stayed at the School, where she had done brilliantly, and the Russells had been responsible for her. She was to sit for a scholarship to Oxford this year, and looked forward eagerly to a university training, for Lady Russell had told her that even if she did not win the scholarship, she should have her three years at Oxford. Biddy was straining every nerve to prove herself deserving of such treatment, and the whole School expected her to add to its laurels.

Next term I shall let her help with the little ones, so that she need not feel under too great an obligation to us. She can do quite a lot without interfering with her own work, and as she will be the oldest of our boarders, it need surprise nobody.

Looking at it from Biddy's perspective though, (if that's possible) she was proud of her mother being a proper lady's maid and to be trained to follow in her footsteps would have been more than she could have hoped for as she wandered Tyrol alone. It would have been a perfectly respectable "career" and with the CS contacts she would have been able to get a very good situation. Yes, I agree, it's very class-based and biased, but for the time perfectly acceptable. I'm still very glad for Biddy that EBD relented and let her have the whole CS experience though!

Incidentally, I love the fact that though Biddy is grateful ,she is never humble and meek, but is confident enough to become a naughty Middle.

Was the village school actually tried for Biddy? She arrives in And Jo (summer term) and is spoken of as a Junior in Exploits, the following term. Does she appear in Camp at all? It may well be that she never attended the village school at all!

It's not like Len to make remarks like that, even though I appreciate that to her they were just statements of fact - I don't suppose EBD meant anything by it, but it does happen twice!

"The school has always been taught that what matters is the girl herself—is she decent and sporting? Does she pull her weight? That's what matters here. And so far as that goes, my lamb, we all of us are the descendants of a gardener. Have you forgotten that when God created Adam, He put him into Eden with orders to look after it? And who do you imagine did the housework but Eve? She hadn't any servants that I've ever heard of! Don't you be silly [...] After that, how could any human being put on airs and be unkind to other people because they came from working-class families. Oh, no, my lamb! You need never be afraid of that sort of thing here."

“At Thoreston the nearest decent school was nearly seven miles away, and it would have meant the village school where you learnt nothing— except broad Yorkshire,” she added, with a twinkle.

I have a vague memory of Joey saying to Robin that Biddy was out millking the goats - does anyone else remember that?

does that make any sense (I realize it is all pure conjecture)

As I often bang-on about this, I wont dwell too much on it, but I don't think EBD was the greatest of deep thinkers, and I don't think she put much organized thought into her writing.

So we get Len saying some very odd things about village schools but still befriending Ros of the 'village school' level.

it is a fact to 8 year old Len that this would be the case, as evidenced by the people she knows (who pretty much all go to the CS in any case) and it's a different thing to the 12 year old Len making friends with one person who has gone to a council school. I don't think she's saying "I can't be friends with someone from the village school", rather that the people she knows don't go there.

The interesting bit about Biddy's story for me is the way that EBD has someone scathingly poo-poo the idea that Biddy be trained up to work as the Robin's maid, or some-such,

There must have been lots of girls, especially in the Armishire/St Briavel's days, who came from families who were reasonably well-off but did actually have to manage on their wages rather than "private incomes" and whose parents sacrificed things like holidays and doing up their homes because they genuinely felt that sending their daughters to a place like the CS would be to give them a good opportunity. I just don't get a sense of that at all.

Tor wrote:

The interesting bit about Biddy's story for me is the way that EBD has someone scathingly poo-poo the idea that Biddy be trained up to work as the Robin's maid, or some-such,

Wasn't the poo-poo ing about the idea that Biddy would be willing to be Robin's maid for free out of gratitude, rather than being a paid maid

IIRC, Vanna suggested that Biddy be trained up as a maid for Robin, Joey pooh-poohed the idea on the grounds that Ted Humphries wouldn't be able to pay for a maid for Robin, Vanna then made the comment about how Biddy'd be willing to work for free out of gratitude and Joey said that that was a stupid remark as well. Or something like that!

Wasn't the poo-poo ing about the idea that Biddy would be willing to be Robin's maid for free out of gratitude, rather than being a paid maid

[I think EBD was a bit of a sucker for 'romantic tosh' herself, and defintely has leanings toward penny-novelettishness herself, but is aware that is not something to strive for!]

I have a vague memory of Joey saying to Robin that Biddy was out millking the goats - does anyone else remember that?

‘Where’s Biddy?’ asked Jo idly, after a pause.
‘Gone to help with the milking,’ replied Madge, setting down her glass.

Quote:
‘Where’s Biddy?’ asked Jo idly, after a pause.
‘Gone to help with the milking,’ replied Madge, setting down her glass

It might explain why Captain Humphires was posted to Russia. And his mysterious death....

Now this is a conspiracy theory I like! Trouble is, I don't think that the ages match up...

So I think at that point it was a lot more common for people to make huge sacrifices to send their children to a private school as the alternatives really weren't as good

My mother was a bit like that - she had an awful time at her state school, so was determined to send her children to a private school, despite the fact that my parents are by no means that high wage earners. They were not the only ones either - there were a number of pupils at my school whose families had to make huge sacrifices to send their children to a private school, at least for the senior school part of it. On the other hand, there are plenty of rich children who go to state schools, and then live in massive houses, have posh cars, go on expensive holidays etc. I suppose for a lot of families it boils down to what they see as being the most important things for them to spend their money on.

I tend to think they'd mostly be fine. They might get a few initial shocks (and the evil bit of me likes to imagine those who would potentially get their come-uppance :twisted:

), but they've primarily been trained in the importance of fitting in and so I think they'd just moderate their behaviour (and maybe also their opinions).

If a CS girl found that she was outnumbered by people with very different ideas and behaviour, would she want or try to fit in with them, if it meant contravening her own CS-learned code of manners?

Quote:

Fair enough, but the reverse is also sometimes the case - people have bad times at private schools too. I'm a teacher in the state sector so I expect I'm biased and I live in a rural area where the state schools are pretty good so I can't speak for those living in urban areas,:

The reverse was certainly the case for us. Dad really hadn't enjoyed his time at private school and so was pretty keen that we wouldn't. I've enjoyed being at state school and certainly not found it detrimental to my education. However I think that is a great deal to do with the school in my town which is apparently very good.

If a CS girl found that she was outnumbered by people with very different ideas and behaviour, would she want or try to fit in with them, if it meant contravening her own CS-learned code of manners?

I do sometimes wonder how some of the CS girls managed when they went on to teacher training colleges, nursing training etc and met people from different backgrounds and with different attitudes.

I don't mean they'll happily fall in with murderers and criminals etc

Now thinking of a new category for the CS yearbook - 'CS Girl Most Likely to Consort With/Become Criminal Mastermind'...

I take EBDs writings on these behavioural codes and belief systems as I read them (i.e. flawed on many levels), and yet give her characters their due as believable incarnations who I identify with, (and thus can't quite believe they would also blindly take on board some of the trite, and somewhat inconsistent teachings...

But if a girl has "gone deep," she hasn't accepted blindly -- and would probably be deeply offended at the idea that her moral code and faith are merely "trite."

I'm afraid "trite" and "formulaic" are words that generally make me see red.

Still, except for the unthinking chameleons (certainly present at the CS, even by EBD's estimation, ready to be "led by the nose" or join into mindless mischief), most would sooner or later have to come to grips with situations that didn't quite fit CS norms. Like all young people, they'd have to learn to deal better with shades of grey

(*wonders what Dan Brown would do the CS-code. Shakes head to clear the horrid thought.*)

& how did he come to be in the vicinity of the train crash in School At? I accept that he was in Tyrol because the Alpine air was thought to be healthy so it seemed like a good place to set up a sanatorium, but why on earth was he lurking around near a railway line in the middle of nowhere :roll:

I always assumed that Jem had been on the same train as Madge and the girls.

Aha! Stalking them, eh?

Yes, because beneath the CS was buried an ancient relic protected by supernatural forces, and this ancient relic could only be uncovered by a specially chosen virgin endowed with extraordinary gifts of charm and charisma.........

this ancient relic could only be uncovered by a specially chosen virgin endowed with extraordinary gifts of charm and charisma.........

**I suppose I may be underestimating the class thing again, given the following from this week's reading: "You seldom get to know people who are out of your own class even in Britain -- it takes a cataclysm like a war to make people like Monica and me get to know one another in Britain even in this year of grace."- Jane Duncan, My Friends the Mrs. Millers, 1952 setting, 1964 publication.

Perhaps adult Len, whose husband was, after all, educated at a village school, will grow into a class warrior? Though I suppose she wouldn't retain any memory of Reg as particularly working-class...? By the time of their engagement, is there anything to mark him out from any of the other San doctors, particularly?

Besides, he ought to have more to offer her than he has at the moment – and I’m not referring to money. Reg’s old great-aunt left him all she had and it was a shock when we heard how much it was. He has quite a nice little private income apart from anything he may earn

It's never really recognised how far he's come since we first meet him 'Rescue', which I think is a shame, but is perhaps linked to EBD trying to forget her own roots?

I don't think we can entirely blame EBD for the attitudes expressed by her characters. Ok, some were perhaps a little out-dated even for their time, but that is often how general opinion works. [...] I'm not saying this is right, or just, or anything, but it was the prevailing attitude of the time, or perhaps a little earlier.

you have central characters preaching social equality, often either on the grounds that ideas about class are old-fashioned (Joey and Marie to Thekla)

I think that EBD had to juggle quite a lot in this issue; she wants to get forward her own message of equality, but she has to first of all make it realistic, and secondly keep in mind her readership and not sound as if she is directly criticising them for any values that they might hold. Thus we get this confusion of different ideas that doesn't always match up.

In terms of recognised norms, I suppose it would have worked both ways. The "village kids" in Cornwall don't seem any keener to play with Mary-Lou than Mrs Trelawney snr did for Mary-Lou to play with them, and any CS girl who'd found herself at a "village school" would probably have been mocked for her lah-di-dah accent...

Had I gone to the CS, I'd've spent all day every day being told off for speaking in a regional accent, using slang and swear words, not wanting to go to religious services, sneaking off for a bit of quiet time alone and a load of other things, but when I read the books as a kid I just kind of imagined myself fitting in there perfectly :lol:

Though I imagine Mary-Lou's grandmother taking a fine-tooth comb to any village school child Mary-Lou had somehow fallen in with, given her evident horror at the Barrasses, which seems to express itself partly in terms of feeling the Barrasses aren't quite the Trelawneys' sort in class terms, with Mr B's foul language, the children's raggedness and independence, and Mrs B being found sketching with a dusty parlour. Though it seems clear to me the Barrasses are middle-class, but of a Bohemian variety Mrs Trelawney clearly suspects...)

The mention of Madge not being on friendship, inviting to tea terms with Marie made me think it's not changed that much. Lots of teachers in my school totally ignore cleaning staff in the corridor as if they're a different species. Is it so hard to say goodmorning or ask how their weekend was?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Other Schools: Village Schools
Sorry for starting this slightly early, tomorrow looks like being quite busy, so I thought that I'd better be safe! There are many mentions of village schools throughout the series, usually as places that a Chalet girl does not attend. Most notable are, perhaps, Mary-Lou not being allowed to go to the village school and so having no friends of her own age, and Biddy being sent originally to a village school but ending up at the Chalet School. What is the basis for the assumptions made about village schools within the series? Is it merely an issue of class, or did EBD have personal experience which put her off village schools? Is it a fair attitude displayed in the books? Is it an attitude of its time, or would it have seemed odd even when the books were first published? What do you think of Biddy's storyline - was she treated fairly? What about other girls who aren't allowed to go? And what made the Chalet School "better" than village schools, except that it was private? Discuss these and any other issues relating to village schools below. Thankyou Sunglass for the idea!

Author:	Nightwing [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I never really thought about it when I was reading the books as a kid, but I think Biddy going to the local village school is a little bizarre - wouldn't they have spoken German there?! I imagine she would have found it enormously hard to settle in happily, as we're told she did - she would barely have spoken the language, and surely she would have felt like an outcast for not being able to attend the school she was actually 'rescued' by! I always assumed that the dislike of village schools was an 'of their time' opinion, although not knowing much about British education I guess I don't really know for sure - but I imagine that village schools would have been mostly attended by working class children, that the classes would have been a lot larger than those at a private school, and that a lot of the students would have been looking to leave school as soon as possible to find work. There's definitely classism involved, but then I can also see how well-off parents might think that their children would be disadvantaged by going to such a school.

Author:	Miss Di [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I always think of village schools as the type of school Miss Read wrote about - an infants class and a primary class and most of the children leave as soon as they can to work on the farm, very few going on to secondary education. So not the type of school people who intend to go to university (or make their debut) attend!

Author:	JB [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I don’t know much about village schools but go along with Miss Di’s description and would have expected pupils to leave a village school at around 14. I think it is an attitude very much of its time and class. I didn’t find it odd when I read the books – someone from a middle class, relatively well-off background wouldn’t have gone to a village school. This was reinforced by other books I read at the same time or earlier eg Enid Blyton where almost all the characters go to boarding school. In “The Put Em Rights”, 4 of the children go to boarding school, one goes to a local grammar and the third to the village school. He accepts he’s “different” to the rest and there’s some snob value in being friends with them. One of the outcomes of the book is that he starts to make friends with other children from the village and is happier for that. I’m not agreeing with the message but EBD certainly wasn’t unique in her attitude. EBD herself went to a private day school near her home in South Shields and then taught at a couple of boarding schools, before working as a governess and setting up her own school in Hereford. I can’t imagine she had direct experience of village schools as either pupil or teacher. Nightwing wrote: Quote: I never really thought about it when I was reading the books as a kid, but I think Biddy going to the local village school is a little bizarre - wouldn't they have spoken German there?! I’m with you on this one. It was something which only occurred to me when I knew this discussion was coming up and which I’d never thought of before. I guess this is the class system at work, although in Exploits we’re told that one of the juniors has a father who’s an army sergeant and a mother who was a lady’s maid (when the girls are trying to talk Thekla out of her snobbiness). I don’t think EBD would have seen the language problem; it always works at the CS.

Author:	Lottie [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
JB wrote: I guess this is the class system at work, although in Exploits we’re told that one of the juniors has a father who’s an army sergeant and a mother who was a lady’s maid (when the girls are trying to talk Thekla out of her snobbiness). I always assumed that the junior referred to was Biddy.

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Other Schools: Village Schools http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6652

Author:	JB [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Lottie wrote: Quote: I always assumed that the junior referred to was Biddy. I'd never thought of that. She spent very little time at the village school then (if any). Perhaps they changed their mind over the summer. On a practical level, it could have been difficult for her to get from Briesau to Scholastika each day during the winter.

Author:	Mel [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I think it is largely to do with class and accent. Any of these middle class girls could have gone to a village school for a few years for the basics before going on to boarding school at 8/9/10. The village school of Miss Read sound delightful and probably realistic as she was a teacher of such a school. It compares favourably with the private Junior School I attended where there was a good deal of corporal punishment. Mary-Lou would have coped and would have got a better education than from Doris (wimpish) and Gran (old-fashioned).

Author:	Len [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
The cost of school fees has risen a lot in the last few years, so I assume that in EBD's time, far more middle class families would've been able to afford to send their children to private schools. For comparison, the situation now where I live is that some of the "village schools" are really excellent, and parents who would otherwise have gone private are scrabbling to send their tinies to these village schools (you know, moving into the catchment area specially and so on). Some of them go on to fee-paying schools afterwards, but we're lucky enough to have found really good village schools to take our rabble up to age 11. Not sure how good it is after that, though. But how times have changed that EBD's despised "village schools" could've gained such snob appeal! Seriously, of course, it's not snobbery really, just wanting the best for our children.

Author:	JB [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
The village schools are like that here too, Len. I live in a small town surrounded by villages and with a larger town on each side. We have the best performing secondary school in the area (in one neighbouring town the school has just come out of special measures and in the other three have merged to become an Academy). When a friend enquired about renting out her property, she was told there would be no problem as parents (presumably middle class) are keen to rent a house here for 6 months so they have an address in the catchment area for our school. We have one private day school nearby which takes pupils from kindergarten through to A-levels but, in the time was EBD writing, there was at least one more school (which Mum's cousin attended) and which sounds very like one of EBD's private day schools. It would look very different if EBD were writing today.

Author:	Tor [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Quote: For comparison, the situation now where I live is that some of the "village schools" are really excellent I really don't think we can compare today's state schools with the 'village schools' of EBDs days, not least because they are founded on the presumption that the quality of education is to be equal to that of any private school, and that its pupils are as able and have as much right to an education as their fee paying peers. Today, going to a local state school is the norm for working and middle class families, and thus has nothing of that stigma (to normal people, anyway... I met a few people at uni who might have disagreed ) The 'village school' prejudice in EBD/EB is a true reflection of the class issues of the time, in my opinion. Social mobility wasn't really worried about, and you had to be of truly exceptional ability to qualify for a scholarship to the local grammar (and then university) from a village school background. I am pretty sure the classes were large, there was more emphasis on basic numeracy/literacy of the sort that would get you a decent job in a shop/factory etc. You would be allowed to keep your regional accent, which would carry with it its own baggage as a signal you were likely to be 'uneducated'. Hence, a middle-class parent wouldn't send their children there if they could afford not too. Compare this to the much more truly rural schools in Anne of GG, of Laura Ingalls-Wilder, where they are seen as the clear route into middle class professions and university for those pupils who are able. Actually, contrary to my above paragraph - I wonder if maybe I am seeing village schools of the early 20th century through the class-bound attitudes of EBD (and EB etc), and besmirching them unfairly...? Because, of course, Anne of GG and the Little House books are written from the point of view of the working-class attendees of those schools.

Author:	Jennie [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I think it was class snobbery, written to make the readership of the CS books feel as though the CS was the only route to education. I went to a council school, and believe me, the emphasis there was on how many would pass the 11+. Just for the record, the Princess Royal sent her children to an ordinary primary school in Minchinhampton for their early years education, until they were old enough for prep school.

Author:	Jane [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
My cousin also went to a village school - number on roll 17 - until he was sent to prep school at 8. (I agree with Tor, though - the modern state system is entirely different.) When I was small I couldn't get my head round all the different ages being together and asked whether there were only two in each class!

Author:	Tor [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Quote: Just for the record, the Princess Royal sent her children to an ordinary primary school in Minchinhampton for their early years education, until they were old enough for prep school. How wonderfully egalitarian of her. I wonder why she sent them to prep school at all? Perhaps, like my in-laws did with my SLOC, she did so when she caught the first whiff of non-U in the accent....? (The in-laws would swear they aren't snobs... and are lovely people.. but this is telling, no?). Still, I love the idea of Princess Anne waiting in the playground with the other mums at the end of the day. I agree Jennie, I am fairly sure it is a class thing for eBD. But I also wonder whether it is a reflection of two other things on her part: (i) her age - her idea of a village school might well be based on a depression-era type of local school, whereas I am guessing the majority of people on this board have experience with post-WWII schools, for which I think (please some one correct me) there was something of a attitude shift with the general move toward a welfare-state and education for all and, (ii) those same schools were also in urban areas, and thus also had a lot of socail/poverty issues rolled up in their efficacy as educational establishments...?

Author:	JB [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Tor wrote: Quote: I agree Jennie, I am fairly sure it is a class thing for eBD. But I also wonder whether it is a reflection of two other things on her part: (i) her age - her idea of a village school might well be based on a depression-era type of local school I keep coming back to something which Helen McClelland says in Behind the Chalet School (and apologies if I keep repeating this but it so often seems relevant). She says that EBD retained a lots of the values and ideas from her childhood ie early 1900s, to an unusual degree (paraphrasing here but that's the gist of it). I do wonder if this affected her views here.

Author:	trig [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Tor wrote Quote: Compare this to the much more truly rural schools in Anne of GG, of Laura Ingalls-Wilder, where they are seen as the clear route into middle class professions and university for those pupils who are able. Actually, contrary to my above paragraph - I wonder if maybe I am seeing village schools of the early 20th century through the class-bound attitudes of EBD (and EB etc), and besmirching them unfairly...? Because, of course, Anne of GG and the Little House books are written from the point of view of the working-class attendees of those schools. I was always struck by the contrast too. The teacher of the village school in Anne seems to have been a marvel - teaching around 60 students from 5 to 17 in one room! I think, though, that rather than a class thing it's a national thing. (Although now I think of it I'm sure Amy March in Little Women goes to a private school ) I agree that EBD was stuck in the era she grew up in. In the 40s and 50s , when Three Go was written and EBD was scathing about village school for MaryLou, my own parents went to very rural small schools and got into grammar school from there, and on to University. My father-in-law on the other hand states catagorically that he learnt nothing and that was why he failed the 11+.... To be fair to EBD, though, in Island Joey refuses to allow Stephen to go to the CS as planned, so she and Jack send him to the local school. I'm sure Joey says something along the lines of "Miss So-and So keeps them in good order" and the only worrying thing is some undesirable language which Joey is happy to "deal with". But then Stephen is a boy... The fees for small private schools were I think small in relation to average incomes and I expect there were quite a lot of awful small private schools as well as the state ones.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I can't help wondering if, from her attitude to Joan Baker, presumably of the 'village school' class, that she suspected young ladies would not retain their Pure Minds at a village school either? After all, Joan's lack of shyness about boys is blamed on the fact she would have left school early etc. It is something I also read as of its time, though it's a shame that EBD is so scathing when she's so open minded about class in other ways.

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Nightwing wrote: I never really thought about it when I was reading the books as a kid, but I think Biddy going to the local village school is a little bizarre - wouldn't they have spoken German there?! When I first read this in Exploits I was a bit disappointed in EBD as the decision to send Biddy there seems to be on the grounds of social class. Poor Biddy, if she hadn't been academic she would have remained separated from the other CS girls and ended up as someone's faithful Anna. Gwen Courtney in her lovely book Sally's Family is the only writer of that period, or that I'm aware of anyway, who allows a middle class child to attend a village school.

Author:	Nightwing [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
trig wrote: To be fair to EBD, though, in Island Joey refuses to allow Stephen to go to the CS as planned, so she and Jack send him to the local school. I'm sure Joey says something along the lines of "Miss So-and So keeps them in good order" and the only worrying thing is some undesirable language which Joey is happy to "deal with". But then Stephen is a boy... Yes, there's clearly a different attitude to boys than to girls here! There's quite a contrast to the triplets comments to OOAO that there's only a village school and she won't go there. Which makes me wonder where they picked that attitude up from? I'd always assumed it was from Joey, but given that she is happy to send her son to one, perhaps it was from somewhere else...?

Author:	Elle [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Doesn't Reg go to the village school because his aunt won't send him to the Secondary school. Did he miss taking the exam or was she just too mean? I think Jack then sends him to Public School.

Author:	Lesley [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
He missed taking his exams due to illness.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I think the way village schools are represented is very much a reflection of a class system that saw poorer rural children getting only a basic education till the age of twelve or fourteen, after which they would start work. The anomaly, though, is that lots of the rural middle class girls we come across in the series, whose parents or guardians wouldn't have considered in a thousand years sending them to a village school on educational grounds, are often educated in a way which isn't necessarily a lot better from an academic point of view. (There are quite a few girls who seem to have learned almost nothing from governesses, or only very old fashioned things, have had slightly random lessons from the local vicar, or have gone to tiny 'select' schools which don't appear to have taught them much either.) BUT the difference (apart from the early school leaving age of a village school) is clearly one of social class. It's clearly inconceivable that middleclass girls should be expected to mix on terms of equality with the children of farm labourers. They would have risked developing a regional accent or non middle class ways at a village school, as is mentioned in several CS references to them. Of course, EBD is only reflecting common attitudes (though as other people have said, she ignores (apart from Reg) the possibility of a village schoolchild moving on to a grammar and bettering herself in that way) but I have to say I find the Biddy O'Ryan situation really problematic. The automatic assumption that the English speaking Irish child of a servant and a soldier should 'naturally' be sent to the village school (at which all education is carried out in a language she doesn't speak), rather than attend lessons at the school which has adopted her, is shocking to me, because the only reason for it can possibly be class based, that Biddy's 'natural' place is with her social equals, even if she cannot possibly benefit from the minimal education on offer there, or even communicate at all with pupils or teachers. The Joan Baker/Rosumund pre CS school situation seems to me different, as it's an urban school, but clearly we're intended to understand it's of an inferior kind, because Ros didn't get into the local high school her sister attended. (EBD seems to generally approve of high schools, or convents, which appear in Lintons and Future.) Ros explains her previous lack of education to someone later on as due to the fact that she went to a 'government school' but I'm not sure whether we're supposed to see such a school (in EBD's eyes) as socially, or just academically, inferior...?

Author:	trig [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I was always confused when reading CS as a child with the references to High Schools. Wherever I've lived local government funded secondary schools have generally been referred to as High Schools, and I assumed that Jo and Grizel etc went to one of these (in Liverpool most schools were single sex high schools so I didn't see this as an issue). It was only as an adult that I realised (correctly I hope!) that EBD was referring to the Girls Day School Trust schools or something similar. I remember reading about the founding of the GDST when I applied to teach in one and they were originally set up, in an era when state secondaries were virtually nonexistent, to provide a secondary education for girls whose parents could not affort the extortionate fees charged at the big public schools. I don't know if the state funded secondary schools by the twenties, which might have explained the snob value in a High School versus a state one.

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I think that at the time of the 1944 Education Act, some High Schools went one way, and some another - some chose to remain in the public sector, offering education to any child who could pass the 11-plus, whereas others became private/public schools like the Girls Day School Trust schools. And there were also what was called direct grant schools, not sure how they worked; they weren't quite state schools, but were open to a far wider range of children than the average public school. Many/most of them turned into public schools when the direct grant system was abolished in 1976. Meanwhile, as late as 1970 it was thought that a child who might go to university ought to be moved from a state primary school at the age of 8; nowadays, of course, that's far from being the case.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
What kind of qualification, if any, would have been necessary to teach in either a village school or the 'government school' or 'council school' some CS characters see as providing different types of inferior education? Because it does bring to mind again the fact that neither of the original mistresses at the CS appear to have had any teaching qualifications (and Madge doesn't have any experience in teaching that we know of). Which makes you think again about what precisely might be the educational, rather than purely social, differences between the schools which are generally approved of, and the ones generally disapproved of, in the CS?

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Presumably Madge and Madmoiselle's qualifications relate to being Ladies, and therefore being able to run the finishing-school type establishment that they do, as well as bringing a reasonable degree of knowledge to the post. I think from what we know of the first pupils - Gisela, Bernhilda etc - and how their prospects relate to marriage more than career orientated work, a strong, 'traditional' base of a woman good at domestic sciences and with a broad but not indepth knowledge of most subjects, so that she could converse intelligently with her husband, would be the ideal, rather than focusing on academic acheivement.

Author:	trig [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
In DH Lawrence's The Rainbow published in 1915 so a bit before this Ursula is able to teach in a "board" school with a matriculation (old GCSE or A level - I don't know), although after a year she goes off to get a degree so she can get a better job. I must say this school sounds absolutely terrible with 60 children in each class and only kept in order by violent beatings. However, the teachers even then sounded like highly educated people so I imagine several had degrees. Even now, though, you can get a job as a teacher in a state or private school with no qualifications whatsoever - being paid on the unqualified scale which starts at about £13 000. Why anyone would want to do this is unimaginable.

Author:	MJKB [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
Is the difference between girls' public schools and private schools a matter of size rather than prestige? What is the difference between an Independent school and a grant aided school?

Author:	hac61 [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
MJKB wrote: What is the difference between an Independent school and a grant aided school? In my understanding an Independant school raises all it's income from pupils fees, thus it is independant of everyone. A grant aided school has part of it's income from some kind of body, be it a religious foundation or a Trust of some kind. hac

Author:	Tor [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
http://www.isc.co.uk/InternationalZone_WhatisanIndependentSchool.htm gives a brief explanation of UK independent schools. Most Independent Schools are also charities, and qualify for tax relief.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
The bit that really gets me is when Polly and Lalla Winteron make snooty remarks about how they couldn't possibly have gone to the village school near their old home because all they'd've learned would've been to speak with a Yorkshire accent - and then when they get to the CS it turns out that they're so poorly educated that they have to be put in forms way below their age groups!!

Author:	Jennie [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
The High School that I attended had to give up its endowment at the end of the war, because it couldn't manage on that, so had to stop taking children from Kindergarten age and concentrate on secondary education. Originally it had been set up as a charitable foundation to teach girls to spin wool and thus prevent them falling into poverty. When I first went there, and before a major building project, the school was still divided into various buildings named after their previous functions, so we spent the Third year in the Annexe, and did needlework in the Kindergarten. Yes, isn't it surprising how many girls who wouldn't have dreamed of attending a village school had to do so much catching up at the CS?

Author:	Jenefer [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
The attitude towards village schools in Three and Peggy has always annoyed me. Also how did Mrs Trelawney find the time to teach Mary Lou and run the house with no help due to the War. What would 'lessons with Mother' consist of and where did they get the texts books etc. There have been Teacher Training Colleges since Victorian times. In A London Girl of the 1880s, Molly Hughes attended one in Cambridge for a year. She then taught for a few years, gained an external degree and set up a teacher training course at Bedford College in the 1890s. There is a good description of a village school during the 1940s in Bad Blood by Lorna Sage

Author:	Smile :) [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I've always thought it was more a class issue and based on the era EBD grew up in rather than that in which the majority of her books were set. After all the CS didn't give as an amazing education as is always made out and certainly it was very unbalanced!! their attitude to village schools really annoys me but I don't feel I can comment pn it very much as clearly village schools were very different to what state schools are today. I always like to stick up for todays state schools especially to my gran who tries to but us down because unlike my cousins me and my sister did not follow in our dads footsteps to the same school (for which I am very grateful) but clearly this is a whole different thing so sorry to go OT it's a pet rant. The thing with Biddy REALLY annoyed me!! Why adopt her and then try to send her off to the village school as if she wasn't good enough and wasn't really one of them? Plus I don't think she spoke much German.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Other Schools: Village Schools
I must be one of the few people where Biddy going to the village school didn't strike me as odd. Firstly she was financially supported by the Guides which I always assumed wouldn't have had a lot of money. The school fees when it first started were 120 pounds which would have been a lot of money in those days. Would the money from Guides have covered that? Secondly, when Juliet was first left at the school Madge didn't consider covering Juliet's fees but instead was planning on giving her a job as a student teacher. It was only when Juliet's parents died and left the money that Juliet remained as a pupil. I think being offered a place to live, shelter, clothes etc instead of sending the girl to an orphanage was pretty nice thing to do and then when they realised that Biddy was bright and would do well, they did keep her at the school, and paid her fees. Not many people would do that. I only know of one foster family who send the foster kids to private schooling, most only send them to the local public school. Jem and Madge may have been well off, however, most of Jem's money would have been tied up with the San and he had only started it 3 years earlier and so would have spent a huge amount setting the place up. I guess I don't really get the whole class thing. Juliet who would have been considered more middle class was going to be treated the same way until her parents died. The only difference was Biddy was 10 and not 15 and so still needed to go to school.