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Other Schools: St. Scholastika's
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Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

St. Scholastika's opens at the other end of the lake to the CS, and the two have a rocky relationship to begin with. However, they soon reconcile, and eventually the two schools merge.

What do you think of St. Scholastika's as a school? Do you like the Saints? We get to see some of the teaching methods first hand when the staff from St. Scholastika's come to teach at the CS - what do you think of their teaching methods? Does St. Scholastika have a different raison d'etre to the CS?

Discuss these and any other thoughts you have about St. Scholastika's below.

Idea by Sunglass

Author:  Mel [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I think St S was dreamed up to make the CS school look wonderful. It seems highly unlikely that a timid woman like Miss Browne would open a school in an unknown place like the Tiernsee. It's quite interesting that the early CS was trying to be as much like an English school as possible, but the advent of St S proves that it is not. It is muli-cultural, multi-lingual, embraces local customs, is part of the community, wheras St S is the opposite! Their uniform is 'arty,' they don't wear nailed boots, don't have Guides and have girls who are snobby! They probably don't use plumeaux and have bacon and eggs for breakfast (and call it breakfast!) It is provided as a perfect foil to Madge's perfect Chalet School.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

It does seem to be the antithesis of the CS. We're told that they only take girls who are British (although Maureen, the girl who falls through the ice, is Irish!) and Protestant, and that they don't have their boots nailed and all the rest of it. Miss Browne is a poor Head and Elaine is a poor Head Girl (and commits the cardinal sin of not immediately falling at Robin's feet), and EBD is very critical of the fact that they don't have Guides.

Most of the girls and staff there are OK, though. And the feud in Rivals doesn't always show the CS in a good light, which is interesting because usually the CS is above criticism. The fight which breaks out when Grizel and Gerry are supervising the CS girls is blamed on pupils of both schools, and the CS girls are extremely rude in not getting into single file on a narrow path and therefore forcing the St S's girls to walk in the mud. (Incidentally, although we're told that Miss Stewart was new and therefore didn't know to tell the girls to get into single file, surely she should have done so just out of common sense!)

A lot of the problems at St S's seem to be caused by poor leadership, which is a storyline that we never really get to see "done" at the CS itself. Everyone opposes rather than follows Miss Bubb's leadership, and the only "bad" Head Girl is Marilyn Evans whom we never actuallt get to "see".

Author:  mohini [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

BTW what is plumeaux ?
I agree that St Scholastika is introduced to show CS in better light. Otherwise why should a British school be started in Austria ? And the girls do not speak German very fluently.
In general, all the schools introduced by EDB in her series are always shown to be lacking and CS is always much better than other schools.
The girls are like sheep without a sheepdog,not knowing where to go. Some of the girls do not like the Head girl's behavior but do nothing against it.
In CS there would have been some leader in every form to guide the girls.
The CS girls consider themselves superior.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I wonder if EBD also introduced it knowing that the two schools would merge later on, thus providing a new, interesting way to get new characters into the series. After all, the CS was existing very much on a "friend of a friend" basis, and it would be improbable for them to keep growing in that way. Having another school nearby they could merge with would be a far more logical progression!

Author:  Laura V [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Rivals is one of my favourite books! I wish EBD had made more references to other schools throughout the series instead of just having the Chalet School in it's own little world!
I like the contrasts between the two schools. I like the literal relocation of an English school to the Tirol and the unpreparedness of both staff and pupils to adjust to new surroundings and culture. I only wish EBD had written more about St S!!

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Rivals is one of my favourites too. I agree entirely that St Scholastika's is written the way it is as a foil to make the CS look good. It's insular where the CS is international, ill-prepared for the environment, and has an ineffective head girl and Head (and that Head is gaunt, tweedy and has a metallic voice - automatic EBD Bad Guy). (And whoever said EBD always planned it not to flourish, so it would eventually amalgamate to provide a source of CS new girls, is probably right.)

I do always think, even though in some ways St S's as a whole is a kind of Little Englander stereotype, that it has its own side of the story, too. I can easily see how the CS girls came off as a bit show-offy and owners-of-the-lakeside on that trek up to the alm - after all, it's hardly the Saints fault that they aren't experienced mountaineers, and don't know anything about the locality. Plus it's not hard to see that hearing the CS girls go on about their four years experience at the Tiernsee and their royals and titles, and Joey's sister founding the school etc - especially when you are new to walking in the snow, wearing boots that can't have been properly broken in yet, and absolutely exhausted! - could have felt you were having their general superiority rubbed in your face, especially when they are in better walking trim.

I do also think that EBD minimises the CS's responsibility for the feud - Joey, as a prefect, should never have talked about Miss Browne trying to poach her, but does very little to try to stop it, and the forcing them off the path thing is pretty rude. Joey's near-death experience, and the Saints pelting Grizel and Gerry Challoner with snowballs, and then the Vera Smithers letters thing tends to make you forget the feud isn't entirely one-sided.

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

What always interests me about the Saints is that it seems to give EBD a bit of latitude to bring up some stuff she never raises explicitly with the CS.

Madge has only been on holiday to the Tiernsee herself, and isn't any more prepared than Miss Browne, really. The unsuitable walking shoes stuff just doesn't come up immediately because the CS starts in the summer term, and Joey does mention that Herr Braun had to warn the CS about the ice as well during their first winter - obviously, the CS didn't magically develop local knowledge/mountaineering know-how overnight either! And Miss B, unlike Madge, has experience in running a school and is bringing enough pupils with her to make it pay from the outset, presumably. So I tend to raise my eyebrows slightly when various CS mistresses tut about whether St S's will survive, and that Miss B had put all her money into an unsure venture - because she's done pretty much what Madge did, only with less risk!

In some ways, it's as if the Saints are a version of what could have gone wrong at the CS, but doesn't - like a small but significant number of parents removing their girls after the ice incident, and the CS mistresses thinking more will probably not return. Realistically, that could have happened ten times or more in the CS's first few years! Just as the CS could itself easily just not have flourished in such a remote spot, with few sources of new pupils - and possibly wouldn't if it weren't for the San link and the demise of St S's.

The other thing I always think of with the Saints/CS relationship is how much it points up some of the interesting contradictions in the CS ethos of 'Englishness' but still embracing local custom. The CS is initially obsessed with being an 'English' school, despite the fact that most of them aren't English, and their winter gear and the decor of the Chalet are very local to the Tiernsee, something EBD evidently approves of, compared to the Saints, with their insular English ideas, wrong shoes and lack of porcelain stoves. Yet when the Saints refer to them as 'foreigners' the entire CS (whether or not they are English) is really insulted! I'd think that if any school would have simply laughed at prejudices like 'foreigners = no good at games' , it would be the CS - its sportiest early pupil is an Austrian aristocrat!

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Sunglass wrote:

Madge has only been on holiday to the Tiernsee herself, and isn't any more prepared than Miss Browne, really.


I never thought of that, but you're right. But Madge has 'elusive prettiness' and never wears tweeds, which is more important! :)

I always smile at how the two schools see one another's uniforms too - the Saints see the CS as 'dowdy' and laugh at their shawls and handknit socks and boots, and the CS thinks the Saints' uniform is flimsy and also 'arty'. I'm never quite sure why it's 'arty', though - it's not like it's the Tanswick Chalet School with the orange tunics. Saxe-blue is a quite ordinary colour for a uniform, I'd have said. I would have said that flame-coloured ties were at least as 'arty'...? Nothing wrong with artiness, either.

Plus I have a sneaking urge to agree with the snarkier Saints - I like the sound of the outdoor uniform they wear in Eustacia, the yellow jumper and breeches, which sounds comfortable, and attractive, but if they are wearing long brown coats AND brown berets AND brown handknitted stockings AND brown gloves AND brown shawls in Rivals, I can kind of see what the Saints mean! It would take Wanda von Eschenau all her time to look like a fairy princess in that lot! And the entire school out for a walk must have looked like a lot of brown ...

Author:  Emma A [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Of course, the CS had been there for a few years by the time St Scholastika's came to the lake, and maybe there were similar mistakes made in their early days. After Rivals, the Saints do fade rather into the background, with only the occasional mention. I suppose that's justified, considering that the focus is on the Chalet School, and least EBD does remember about them, unlike the school of Miss Holroyd's (St Hilda's?) in Feud, which practically disappears after their one book.

I do find interesting the merger between the two schools in New. It's a good plot for EBD, after Joey's departure, and there's plenty of scope for clash of cultures. She doesn't treat the elder Saints entirely sympathetically, though - after all, expecting them to speak French or German all day and in lessons, when they don't have the language skills, would have been very disorientating. If any of the Saints were planning to go to university, how would they have felt to struggle through, say, history lessons in French when they'd only ever been taught in English? For the girls who would only be there a term, I'd waive the language requirement entirely!

Understandably, I think, it takes a while for the Saints to feel at home in their new school, and they mostly seem like a nice crowd.

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Sunglass wrote:
In some ways, it's as if the Saints are a version of what could have gone wrong at the CS, but doesn't


That's how I see it too - and I think that one of the reasons the the CS worked was that Madge made such close links with the locals when the school started. She was prepared to take advice from locals, even from her own Austrian pupils on the subject of the weather, and she even listens to Marie, a servant, when she talks about the poverty facing many of the locals. I think having such a lot of local knowledge available to her meant that Madge wouldn't have made a lot of the mistakes that St Scholastika's made.

I also don't see that the CS comes off looking so much better than St. S's. For the most part the blame lies equally on both sides - to me, the only thing that really stands out is Elaine's behaviour; without her poor leadership, I think both schools are as bad as each other. And Elaine could just as easily have been a pupil at the CS (although there, of course, she would never have made Head Girl!)

Author:  Abi [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Definitely agree that Rivals shows a different side of the CS, which I think can only be a good thing. Not only that, but the Saints aren't shown as absolutely villains - they're actually pretty likeable on the whole. As Nightwing says, their main disadvantage is the fact that Elaine doesn't lead the school well.

But I also like the way that St Scholastika's stay as part of a long term storyline - you see a realistic development of a relationship between the two schools, up to and including the difficulties experienced when they merge into one.

Author:  JayB [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Quote:
....the Saints aren't shown as absolutely villains - they're actually pretty likeable on the whole.


EBD picked two former Saints, rather than former CS girls, to play leading roles in the later books - Hilary Burn from Exile through the English/Welsh years, and Nancy Wilmot in the Swiss years. Since they only had a year or so at the CS, their admirable qualities must be down to the training they received as Saints.

Author:  Mel [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Apart from the blame over the feud, there is nothing about the Saints that is better is there? Even their French is poor and they are taught by Mdle Berne who becomes a CS mistress! Did the CS have language days at this point? It is very vague as to when they started.

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I can't remember language days being mentioned in Rivals , but I may just be forgetting!

Doesn't Miss Browne say something like "I'm bringing my school here as an experiment"? It suggests that she's not overly confident that it'd work out. & it's a lot more realistic that parents would withdraw their daughters after the ice incident than it is that they would seem to be totally untroubled by girls running off and nearly dying on dangerous mountains and all the rest of it!

The Saints are quite rude about "foreign" schools, but a lot of what they say is not really any worse than Gisela and the others saying that English schools are deficient in education, and not nearly as rude as Juliet's early comments about not being ordered about by "fussy foreigners". & EBD seems to share their views on sports because we rarely see the CS girls play a match against an Austrian or Swiss school. I appreciate that cricket and hockey are not popular in Central Europe, but they could have had swimming or rowing competitions.

The feud was six of one and half a dozen of the other in a lot of ways - both sets of girls behaved inappropriately. Later on in the series, no-one seems willing to admit that the CS is less than perfect or could possibly have anything to learn - all Miss Bubb's suggestions, for example, are dismissed as stupid because they don't fit in with the CS's "little ways" - but with the feud in Rivals it's very refreshing to see Madge at the end tell Joey and the others that they were at fault too.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I love "Rivals" (and still always weep when Joey is at death's door!); it is early enough in the series that the Chalet School - and Jo - are not yet perfect and so are much more rounded characters (if a school can be said to be a character).

Arguably one reason why the Chalet School "works" in a way that St Scholastika's doesn't is that Madge is more flexible than Miss Browne, who wants an English school on the lakeside. Madge doesn't, necessarily - it is the girls like Gisela and Bette who want an "English" school! Madge will take what is good from any and all cultures (at least, while the school is in Tirol she will!).

And we do see Miss Browne cracking down very hard on Vera and Elaine - she is not as ineffectual as her pupils would like to think she is!

Author:  JB [ Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Compared to the Chalet School, the Saints have a pretty dull time. They go for dull walks around the lakeside in their unsuitable shoes, they don’t have their own playing fields and they don’t have Guides to fill their spare time. This is such a contrast to the freedom the CS girls have in the early days, with their games pitches and their jaunts to the pinewoods.

Miss Browne does come across as a ditherer – there’s the business about the brandy when Joey is at death’s door – although she does deal with Vera and Elaine in the end. The prefects have very little power too – in the New Chalet School, Elizabeth and Betty are shocked at punishments the CS prefects can hand out.

Agree that both schools were equally responsible for the feud.

I’d love to know if EBD always had the merger in mind or if that was something that she thought of later. IIRC, the schools merged at the time Chambers had suggested to her that the series was long enough.

Author:  Carrie A [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Have been very interested to read all of the posts on this thread, I enjoyed Rivals too but I have always felt that the conversation at the beginning where Miss Browne tries to recruit Jo, doesn't reflect very well on either Joey or Jem, Ted & Dick. After all Miss Browne has no idea who they are and merely says "...I see you have a schoolgirl with you, and I could not miss the opportunity of presenting you with one of my prospectuses, in case you should wish her to remain here for the sake of foreign languages"

If Joey had merely replied "Thanks very much but I already attend a school here and we also make a point of learning languages" then the story may have gone in a different direction with matches, helping each other out and shared adventures. As it was all four of them were quite rude really and assumed that she was trying to 'sneak pupils away from other schools' when in fact she was doing nothing of the sort.

Given that CS always put such emphasis on politeness etc this exchange has always struck me as rather odd.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I completely agree, Carrie! How was Miss Browne to know that Joey was already at a school in Austria? I think Madge does comment somewhere that Joey shouldn't've gone on to the others about it.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

But she does go on to say (from my pb):

Quote:
I heard there was one here, but run by a Frenchwoman, and we all know what their ideas on education are! Now, here, the girls will be under English supervision, and will learn good solid facts.


In actual fact, the three men are quite polite, explaining that Joey is already at school here, then when she says that Jem just calmly explains that his wife runs the school and in any case they would "never dream of removing our girls from a school we know and approve to one of which we know nothing at all". Miss Browne may not have been doing anything wrong to begin with, but when she hears that Joey is at the other school and still attempts to persuade them to enrol her, she is clearly trying to "poach pupils". Agree that maybe she shouldn't have told the others though - particularly not Margia, who was only a middle at the time.

Author:  JayB [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I agree that Jo was rude and indiscreet, but she always is. It's been established as part of her character ever since School At. It would have been out of character for her not to react that way.

But I also think Miss Browne was impolite in aproaching a group of complete strangers and attempting to thrust one of her prospectuses on them.

At the very least, it's undignified behaviour for the Head of a school. I can't imagine Madge or Nell or Hilda touting for pupils in that way. (The mind boggles at the idea of Hilda doing any such thing.) Was Miss Browne hanging around the lakeside wth a handful of prospectuses, ready to approach any group with a schoolgirl of the right age?

I wonder if it's supposed to demonstrate from the outset Miss Browne's insecurity and suggest a note of desperation about whether her scheme would succeed. (She obviously hadn't done anything up to that point to publicise her school locally, since no-one knew it was to be a school. And if she had talked to Herr Braun or anyone else around the lake, she would have known who Jem, Jo et al were.)

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

There's a complete lack of communication all round, really :? . At the start of Rivals, nobody local has a clue that another school is opening, and they're all speculating as to why work's been done on the building concerned. Even Herr Braun, who seems like one of those village gossip types who always know everyone else's business and always know exactly what's going on :lol: , doesn't know that St Scholastika's is about to open.

I love the idea of Miss Browne standing by the lake handing out copies of her prospectus to everyone (presumably only everyone English-speaking, though :lol: ) who passed :lol: .

Author:  JayB [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

It all shows poor business sense by Miss Browne, doesn't it? The obvious first step when opening a new business in a place where you are a stranger is to get in with the leading established local business people who might be in a position to put custom your way. In other words, Herr Braun, Madge and Jem. Madge, although younger and less experienced, had much better business instincts.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Are we ever told how Madge did manage to get so many pupils to come originally?

Doesn't it also say that the Saints are for English girls only? What would Miss Browne have done if Joey et al turned out to be French? Presumably she couldn't then refuse them entry to the school.

Author:  JB [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

We joke about Madge's decision to sell up and start a school in Austria but she did plan it much better than Miss Browne, who already ran a school.

School at the Chalet lists how most of the first pupils arrived and this continues in Jo Of.

Her first Austrian pupils are from families who are living around the lake and it's easier and cheaper for their daughters to go to the CS rather than travel into Innsbruck as they had done. Other pupils come through word of mouth or they learn of the school while at the Tiernsee (Vanna di Ricci, the von Eschenaus and the Di Ferraras).

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Sorry, I wasn't very clear then. I meant how do the first families find out that it will be coming? Is it just that Herr Braun or someone similar tells them it will be a school, and they decide to send their girls, do they visit Madge before they do, or does Madge essentially do what Miss Browne does but with less brashness, by turning up and asking if their daughters would like to join?

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I don't think it's ever made clear. Presumably it was arranged before the Bettanys arrived in Briesau, because the school seems to open fairly quickly after that. I don't know where they'd have heard about the school from, though.

The person whom Madge initially makes contact with is Frau Pfeifen, who ran the guesthouse which the Bettanys stayed at on their original holiday in Tyrol, and it's hard to imagine that the Pfeifens knew the Mensches, Maranis, Rincinis and Steinbruckes well enough to make suggestions about what school they should send their daughters to.

Herr Braun is the obvious one to have recommended the school, but the impression given is that Madge didn't really know him until she arrived in Briesau, although she must have had some correspondence with him regarding the rent and other arrangements for the chalet. Maybe he was on commission to find pupils for the school or something :lol: .

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

JayB wrote:
It all shows poor business sense by Miss Browne, doesn't it? The obvious first step when opening a new business in a place where you are a stranger is to get in with the leading established local business people who might be in a position to put custom your way. In other words, Herr Braun, Madge and Jem. Madge, although younger and less experienced, had much better business instincts.


Yes, it seems insane that Miss Browne didn't pay any heed to the fact that there was an established local school already. (Though I have to say, the thing I find difficult to believe in the inception of Saint S's is that Herr Braun, despite knowing the foreman and having been in the building, and other prominent locals, don't know what the new chalet is for! Surely at least the foreman would have known what the chalet was to be used for? )

But I don't think her lack of preparation is any more striking than Madge's. After all, Madge just rocks up somewhere she went on holidays five years earlier, apparently knowing only that the Chalet is still available, with minimal money, no experience, and only one paying pupil! She does make good links with the locals after she gets there, but I don't think anyone could claim she did her homework in advance! The only real difference, it seems to me, is that when Madge arrived there was really only Herr Braun to consult as Prominent Local (and maybe the Pfeiffens), whereas four years on, the CS is a big local business alongside the Kron Prinz Karl...

Though I suppose you could to some extent justify Miss Browne's discounting of the CS as 'foreign' and not likely to give a very good education the way that lots of CS characters dismiss 'local' or 'village' schools. She may also think that as she plans to have only British girls (despite the presence of at least two Irish girls, as someone else said), there may be no competition between the schools. (If she assumes the CS is mostly Austrians, or maybe French girls, given the nationality of the Head.)

Author:  JayB [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Quote:
We joke about Madge's decision to sell up and start a school in Austria but she did plan it much better than Miss Browne, who already ran a school.

The two main factors in Madge's early success seem have to been -

1. Not limiting herself to English girls, which was a sound business decision, and

2. Forming close personal friendships with the Maranis and Mensches, who were thus available to give advice and through whom so many other girls came to the school, which was down to her personality - willing to make friends and capable of inspiring affection.

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

JayB wrote:

At the very least, it's undignified behaviour for the Head of a school. I can't imagine Madge or Nell or Hilda touting for pupils in that way. (The mind boggles at the idea of Hilda doing any such thing.) Was Miss Browne hanging around the lakeside wth a handful of prospectuses, ready to approach any group with a schoolgirl of the right age?

I wonder if it's supposed to demonstrate from the outset Miss Browne's insecurity and suggest a note of desperation about whether her scheme would succeed.


I think EBD almost certainly intends us to read it that way. Even if we might think now that it's actually quite sensible behaviour to have a few prospectuses in your bag if you're out and about near your new school building, it's never clear that the CS ever advertises for pupils. (Madge says at the outset that she supposes she'll have to, but it seems never to have been necessary, with the excellent local word of mouth the CS gets immediately, and later on, it's clear that it generally has a waiting list and is pretty picky about the pupils it takes - parents don't interview Hilda, she interviews them. It doesn't even seem to advertise for staff in general...)

So I think EBD thinks actively touting for business is a bit vulgar and desperate. Though personally, I quite like the idea of Madge in her pretty green frock hanging around the ferry landing and pressing trilingual prospectuses into the hands of anyone school-age and sufficiently fairy-princess-like. Or making Joey, Simone and Grizel wander about prominently in their uniforms on the lakeside, talking enthusiastically about the CS. Maybe taking the entire school to prominent special tables for the Tzigane performances at the Kron Prinz Karl (which appears to genuinely horrify the temporary Matron as 'rowdy' and unsuitable for girls) was actually covert advertising...?

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

My ex-boss used to refuse to advertise in local newspapers etc because he thought it was undignified for "a professional firm" to "tout for business" rather than relying on word of mouth. This was in the 21st century, and he certainly wasn't from the same sort of well-to-do background as Madge and the rest of the CS people!

No wonder that we were always being told that there wasn't any money for pay rises ...

I can understand e.g. the von Eschenaus sending Marie and Wanda there on the recommendation of the Maranis, but Signor di Ferrara apparently decided to send his two daughters to the CS because Joey asked Bianca if she'd hurt herself when she fell over and the Carricks seemed to decide to send Juliet there because they'd seen Joey and Grizel and a few of the others wandering about :roll: .

Author:  JB [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Alison H wrote:

Quote:
I can understand e.g. the von Eschenaus sending Marie and Wanda there on the recommendation of the Maranis, but Signor di Ferrara apparently decided to send his two daughters to the CS because Joey asked Bianca if she'd hurt herself when she fell over and the Carricks seemed to decide to send Juliet there because they'd seen Joey and Grizel and a few of the others wandering about .


I imagine the Carricks would have been overjoyed to find a school (any school) where they could repeat their tactic of abandoing Juliet.

Poor Luigia and Bianca - one minute they're on holiday at the Tiernsee, the next they're off to boarding school. :)

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I know pretty much nothing about early 20thc Austrian society and its protocols, but I would have said that it was pretty unlikely even that the von Eschenaus would send their daughters to the CS on the recommendation of the Maranis - if were were being strictly realistic, which I realise EBD isn't!

It's not that they wouldn't trust the Maranis, but the Ms simply haven't known Madge and Mademoiselle long enough to be able to say more than 'They seem thoroughly nice, and are gentlewomen with good educational principles, and their school looks promising - at any rate, we're happy to send our girls there.' My sense is that somewhere like Austria at that time, and at that social level, would probably adhere to quite 19thc formal notions of 'introduction', meaning that you were essentially vouching for the character of whoever you were recommending/introducing, and affirming that this person is who he says he is/not some kind of social interloper, fraudster etc - rather like a serious letter of reference rather than anything we would recognise today as social introductions. Your reputation was also on the line when you introduced or recommended someone to someone else.

We see what can go wrong when the whole Captain Carrick incident blows up in Madge's face, presumably because of the difficulty of ascertaining anything certain about someone who is essentially a foreigner both to the UK and to Austria. It's not as though she can apply to the local doctor/vicar/whoever for references. But there's nothing to prove to the Maranis that Madge is not a foreign fly-by-night herself (who might take a term's fees in advance and run off, say), other than the fact that she seems nice, has made nice with the locals, and doesn't have evil moustaches to twirl...

I suppose I find the whole initial word of mouth thing a bit too easy and informal to be true. But it would have been a deeply depressing (and short) series if it was about how Madge failed to set up a school, and I suppose the 'elusive' Bettany charm must count for a lot...

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I find it quite realistic that the word of mouth gets so many pupils. At first, aren't most of the pupils there for the summer while they're up from town, then like the school so much they become borders during the winter? Also, I imagine that Madge must have been asking less than a governess would, which with inflation in Austria at the time could have been a big factor. And the way Wanda and Marie meet the school, and have their old friends there, would of course win them over, then cousins start appearing which again seems natural to me - relatives close by to look after them, and an affirmed "good" school to go to.

Presumably Madge spent a little while there on holiday, I don't imagine it would have been a holiday in the same way we meant it, especially as she seems to keep in touch with at least one person to know that the chalet is free. That being the case, whoever it was could probably have vouchsafed for her good character to prospective parents.

And of course once she has Jem on board, she must be respectable...

Author:  claire [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

actually what condition must the chalet have been in if it had been empty for at least 5 years

Author:  Tor [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Quote:
Also, I imagine that Madge must have been asking less than a governess would, which with inflation in Austria at the time could have been a big factor.


I wonder if they paid fees in Schillings or in Pounds? If inflation was an issue (I don't know much about this - would love to be enlightened), and also contributed to what Madge meant when she said Austria was cheap, then I'd have thought they'd want their fees in pound sterling.

Or perhaps Madge offered a substantial discount on fees, to gain their patronage and schmooze 'em up a bit, wiley business woman that she was. If so, it turned out to be worth the risk to create a larger, impressie looking school in a short space of time...? Maybe the CS didn't turn a profit for a number of years...

Author:  JB [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Chubby Monkey wrote:

Quote:
And of course once she has Jem on board, she must be respectable...


I am trying very hard but i'm finding it difficult not to mix up this thread with a certain drabble that's a re-working of The School at the Chalet. :devil:

Author:  JayB [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Gah! Made a long post, then managed to lose it before submitting! :x
Trying again.

I've posted about this before, but having searched, the board tells me the thread does not exist!

But I think this is the article I linked to then:
http://www.fee.org/pdf/the-freeman/0604RMEbeling.pdf
It's all interesting, but this is the relevant part:
Quote:
Between March and December 1919 the supply of new Austrian crowns
increased from 831.6 million to 12.1 billion. By December 1920 it increased to 30.6 billion; by December 1921, 174.1 billion; by December 1922, 4 trillion; and by the end of 1923, 7.1 trillion. Between 1919 and 1923, Austria’s money supply had increased by 14,250 percent.

Prices rose dramatically during this period. The cost of living index, which had risen to 1,640 by November 1918, had gone up to 4,922 by January 1920; by January 1921 it had increased to 9,956; in January 1922 it stood at 83,000; and by January 1923 it had shot up to 1,183,600.

The foreign-exchange value of the Austrian crown also reflected the catastrophic depreciation. In January 1919 one dollar could buy 16.1 crowns on the Vienna foreign-exchange market; by May 1923, a dollar traded for 70,800 crowns....

Finally in late 1922 and early 1923 the Great Austrian Inflation was brought to a halt.The Austrian government appealed for help to the League of Nations .... A gold standard was reestablished in 1925; a new Austrian shilling was issued in place of the depreciated crown;
and restrictions were placed on the government’s ability to resort to the printing press again.


EBD would have experienced the inflation on her holiday, but by the time Madge founded the school it would have been coming to an end, so she might not have benefited as much as she was hoping.

Austria was in a better position than some other countries:
Quote:
Inflation in the defeated countries and successor states often went to unprecedented heights; the most spectacular examples were Austria (where money prices were multiplied by 14,000), Hungary (by 23,000), Poland (by 2,500,000), Russia (by 400,000,000) and Germany (by 1,000,000,000).
J.M Roberts, Europe 1880-1945, p.363
(This is a good textbook style overview that often turns up in secondhand and charity shops, for anyone who wants some background reading!)

Author:  Tor [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

Thanks JayB! so the Austrian Schilling was a purely 20th Century currency?! You learn a new thing every day.... :D

Author:  Carrie A [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

So does Madge have a bank account in England andin Austria? Presumably Miss Browne must have had the same ideas as Madge - that it would be cheaper to run a school in Austria? Given her later money problems, perhaps her school in England had run into difficulties. :idea:

Author:  MJKB [ Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Other Schools: St. Scholastika's

I agree, Chubbymonkey, Miss.Browne's caustic comment about the French was extremely rude and deserved a cold reply.

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