The CBB
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6866

Author:  JB [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

New House at the Chalet School is the eleventh book in the Chalet School series. It was first published in 1935, the same year as Elizabeth the Gallant. Although this was a fairly early Armada paperback that was reprinted several times, this edition was heavily cut and the full text was reprinted by Girls Gone By in 2008. This week’s discussion will focus on the theme of “growing up” in this book but, as ever, please do raise any other points you’d like to.

When Joey arrives at school for the beginning of her last term, she is stunned to learn that she and the other members of the 'quartet' (Frieda, Simone and Marie) are to live in the new middle school house, St Clares. Although this gives the quartet more freedom and privacy, with their own sitting room and bedrooms, Joey feels she would rather have finished her schooldays at the chalet which has been “home” to her for the past five years.

Margia Stevens and Elsie Carr become prefects, along with other girls who will take over leading the school once Joey and her peers have left. Other former firebrand middles become senior middles at St Clares with the responsibility that entails.

In the process of a visit to Innsbruck to the dentist, Jo and Frieda discover a long-lost relative of Dr. Jem's, with interesting repercussions. On her return, she proceeds to fall foul of the new Matron, Matron Besly, a 'fluffy little idiot' with an overinflated idea of her own importance, who annoys everyone by repeating Matron Webb's mistake and confiscating all books from the dormitories.

By the end of the book, Marie von Eschenau is betrothed to Eugen von und zu Wertheimer. There are also hints about Joey’s future. She decides against going to Belsornia to become Elisaveta’s lady in waiting as she feels she can’t leave Madge with “all those babies”.


Were you happy that EBD moved the “quartet” to the new chalet for their final term or would you have preferred them to stay at St Therese?
Are other long-standing characters starting to grow up, such as the new prefects and senior middles?
Joey could be said to act responsibly when she meets Margot Venables and the children, yet Jem is initially angry with her. Any thoughts?
Do you think the development of Joey and her friends is shown as a gradual process over several books or does it happen suddenly?
Do you feel Joey, in particular, is “grown up” by the end of the book? Why?

Thanks to the New Chalet Club for their synopsis, from which I borrowed a paragraph.

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It does seem a bit pointless moving the four of them for one term, but I quite like the move to St Clare's because it focuses the attention on the Quartette as a group during their last term at school. The last chapter is quite emotive: they're leaving school and going off into the world, Marie is getting married, Simone is going off to university, and although they're going to stay friends they know that it'll never quite be the same as it's been whilst they've been at school and together all the time. Leaving school is like that for a lot of people - there may be exciting things ahead, but it can be a big emotional wrench as well.

In later books, we're told that they were "a Quartette from the word go". That isn't true IMO, but by then they've become a close group, and it's lovely that we see them remain friends into adulthood.

It's nice to see Margia & co growing up and becoming prefects as well and, TBH, I think it's a great shame that EBD never really brought them to the fore. The fact that the next book is called "Jo Returns To The Chalet School" just says it all - I wish Jo had been allowed to move on with her life and the next lot of girls allowed to take over at the school. Marie's "Don't you?" comment, when Jo says that she doesn't know anyone she can imagine marrying, is a pretty heavy hint about what's going to happen later, though.

The Matron story was a rerun of one which'd been done only a few books earlier and so I wasn't very impressed with it!

I really like Jem in this book. Although the way he speaks to Jo is rather OTT (why on earth did he think some sort of "impostor" Margot might have appeared - was he confusing his family with the Romanovs?!!), I think we really see his caring side when Margot arrives. He's so desperate to see his sister again that he practically runs through the streets of Innsbruck to get to her hotel - Jo has to ask him to slow down because she can't keep up - and then there's a lot of hugging and kissing which really isn't the sort of thing we usually associate with Jem. The Margot storyline is very interesting generally: people in EBD-land generally get married and live happily ever after unless their partner dies, whereas it's clear that Margot's marriage wasn't like that at all.

Author:  Sunglass [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I really like this book, I think because it has the perfect combination of major plot arcs (Matron Besley, the finding of Margot, Joey beginning to grow up) and the kind of little details and routine EBD loves writing (exactly what kinds of flower decorate the walls of the Quartette's rooms, and the complete layout of St Clare's from attic to cellar, who gets what duty at the prefects' meeting, etc etc) and comic set pieces like the St Clare's concert and Baby Voodoo.

I do find Joey's growing-up pretty convincing, because it's so low-key, and comes about undramatically through little things, like the fact that, in being moved to St Clare's, even with her closest friends, she's essentially having to rehearse leaving the Chalet, which she knows she will do for real at the end of the term. I think that's why she's so dubious in a polite way about the new arrangements, and so flabbergasted about no longer being in the Green dormitory - it really is like leaving home. (Though I still find it a bit Joey as Special Case that Mademoiselle looks 'anxious' when she asks Joey whether she likes her new room! She's the Head, Joey is a schoolgirl having her room changed!) You also see Joey growing up in not freaking out about Marie's engagement, as Madge notices, but we also see her learning to deal with a hostile adult in an adult way, and making great strides in keeping her temper.

The other thing that interests me about Joey's growing up is what seems like an interesting wrinkle in the book, rather than an EBDism:

At the start, we get this for Joey's future duties:

Quote:
'Or do you keep to the old plan, and go to Belsornia as lady-in-waiting to Elisaveta?’
Jo shook her head. ‘No; not now that Sybil has come. And Dick and Mollie come home on furlough this summer; and when they return, they will leave Bride behind at Die Rosen. I couldn’t go away and leave my sister with all those babies to look after. Elisaveta can get any number of girls to maid-of-honour her; but Madge has only me.’


But at the end of the book, after a run-down of all the departing Seniors, all of whom are doing something, whether it's housekeeping, governessing for a sibling, studying etc:

Quote:
Only Jo would find little to do. Her sister had an excellent nurse, and was engaging a young girl to take charge of the Bettany twins until they were old enough for school. There was her singing, of course; and her writing. But Jo felt that she would have no settled duties, and after the full, busy life she had led at school, she found the prospect very dull.


This is quite a change from the start of the book, where Joey apparently believes she is completely necessary at home. Now we're told explicitly that she isn't. I find myself wondering whether she had actually ever discussed this with Madge, or why else does she appear to discover in her final weeks at school that the 'duty' she'd mapped out for herself doesn't really exist at all...? I mean, surely Madge and Jem would have discussed the possibility of some form of career or further study with her before now, and Madge presumably would have been in a position to say she wasn't needed at home, so should feel free to go to Belsornia, or to Italy to study singing, or whatever...? Why does this only emerge now?

Presumably EBD wanted to keep her on the Sonnalpe to remain close to the school and Jack, but it seems oddly anti-climactic that her beloved protagonist has given up all plans for an independent future only to find her self-appointed role as helper at home isn't needed at all?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I also really like this book. The Jo we see is possibly Joey at her very best - when she's grown up and not always haring off doing mad things, but before she becomes Mother of All and Fount of Eternal Wisdom. She has her faults, but she acknowledges them and tries to overcome them.

Sunglass wrote:
Presumably EBD wanted to keep her on the Sonnalpe to remain close to the school and Jack, but it seems oddly anti-climactic that her beloved protagonist has given up all plans for an independent future only to find her self-appointed role as helper at home isn't needed at all?


I've always read that as Madge needing a companion, rather than someone to do the day to day practicalities of so many small children. After all, she's stuck on the Platz with a husband working his socks off (quite literally, it seems, in the case of EBD's doctors) whom she can't see very much and nobody else for company but the hired staff and young babies. At least Joey would provide her with someone to talk to.

I did approve of the move to St. Clare's; it moves the focus of the books to the next generation, and allows some wonderful moments. The description of the orchestral performance at the end of term still makes me laugh until I cry.

The Margot storyline I always think is so touchingly lovely. She has such a sad story, which is carried on through Daisy and Primula when they lose her, but at the same time Jem's evident delight in seeing her again seems so genuine. I think that she's another character who, although we only get told about it retrospectively, has to do a lot of growing up, but I think that she copes with it so well, and I do really admire her for finding Jem again and being brave enough to face him not knowing what his reaction would be.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
she's stuck on the Platz with a husband working his socks off (quite literally, it seems, in the case of EBD's doctors)

:D :D

I doubt Joey would have been washing the nappies anyway, but I'd agree the terms of her future at Die Rosen seem to change between the beginning and the end of the novel. She herself clearly thinks at the start that she's necessary specifically to help Madge with the children, especially with Dick and Mollie leaving another child behind on their next furlough. But by the end, somehow it's now plain that Madge not only has an excellent nurse, but has hired someone specifically as a mother's help for the Bettany children, so there are plenty of hands on deck.

Sure, Joey will be company for Madge, but I'd be inclined to agree with Joey that it sounds like very 'little' in terms of a future. I'm not querying the situation's realism, I just think it's odd that EBD makes it plain that Joey isn't unselfishly giving up Belsornia or a conservatoire because she's 'needed at home', but that she isn't needed in the least, and still can't think up a more exciting future for herself! It does seem like an anticlimax for her favourite character. It does, of course, explain why she's so reluctant to leave the CS... though she completely rules out teaching:

Quote:
And Grizel and Juliet are teaching; but there isn’t anything of that kind for me to do. I shall just stay at home, and help with the children, and practise my singing, and so on. It does not appeal to me after the very full like we lead here—it seems so—so little, somehow. It’s just doing little bits of things that aren’t important.’
...
‘And you do not know. The husband, he may come,’ said Marie, her lovely face touched with deeper colour. ‘Then that would mean babies of your own for which you must do everything, and that is not a little thing, Jo. Your life would be very full and busy then.’
...
‘I don’t think it’s at all likely, Marie. I don’t even think I want it. Somehow, I can’t imagine it for myself. You and Frieda will marry, of course; and very soon, too. And Simone will probably do so after she has taught a few years. But I simply can’t imagine myself darning someone else’s socks, and pouring out his coffee.’
‘I hope it will come, all the same,’ said Marie. ‘It is why God created women.’ :banghead:
‘I don’t see how it can. I don’t know of anyone.’
‘Don’t you?’ Marie gave her a funny little smile, which made Jo look at her sharply before she turned away.
‘Oh well, if it is to come, it will come. But, in the meantime, do not try to push it back, Joey.’


What appallingly sappy ideas Marie has here about the divine role of women - thank heaven she's not usually like this. But, more importantly, how does she know Jack is attracted to Joey? Her knowledge doesn't seem to be shared by Frieda and Simone, and Joey seems genuinely not to get it, so it's not (at this point, anyway) that everyone can see it apart from Joey. Do the Baron and Jack play golf together or something, and he's let something slip?

Author:  Nightwing [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think the theme of "growing up" in this book is actually shown by the school itself. Sure, Le Petit Chalet has been separate from the main school right from the beginning, but this is the first book in which I think the school really feels divided into Juniors, Middles, and Seniors - shown, of course, in the division of the school into three houses. More than anything else this heralds then end of the 'family' atmosphere of the school to me.

At the beginning of the term, when the SSM is revived, it is comprised of both Seniors and Middles - they are still working together. But by the end of the term, St Clare's forms its own band, which shows that they have started to put forward an identity separate to one of simply being Chalet girls - they still are Chalet girls, but they are also Middles, which makes them different to Juniors or Seniors, and as such there is far more of a potential for them to clash with those other groups.

Er, I hope that makes sense :oops:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Do the Baron and Jack play golf together or something, and he's let something slip?


I love that idea! But I also love the idea of Joey and Jack writing to each other while she's at school (strictly as friends, obviosuly) and Marie seeing more into that than Joey's prepared to - which was originally proposed on here a while back.

I hadn't thought of it that way, Nightwing, but you're right. What a terribly sad reading of the situation!

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Do the Baron and Jack play golf together or something, and he's let something slip?


I love that idea! But I also love the idea of Joey and Jack writing to each other while she's at school (strictly as friends, obviosuly) and Marie seeing more into that than Joey's prepared to - which was originally proposed on here a while back.


I did notice, reading Lintons, that Joey comes down from the Sonnalpe with Jack in his car to pick up the Lintons at Wiesing station, and there's no indication anyone else was with them on the quite lengthy journey down. I was wondering about chaperonage in this case, as EBD is at least sometimes very fastidious in making sure the reader knows that a girl of marriagable age is suitably chaperoned in public or in potential contact with men. Does Jack here count as enough of a family friend for it not to be seen as necessary to preserve the appearances? What about if he has already spoken to Jem about Joey? (Marie seems to know something, somehow, only a few months later.)

Not that I'm suggesting for a minute Jack is likely to put the moves on Joey in his car, just about the appearance of propriety. Even though we're encouraged to laugh at Matron Besley for being shocked the Seniors go to listen to the Tzigane at a busy hotel because they might get into conversation with 'goodness knows who', EBD is still careful to point out

Quote:
. Some of the resident Staff would be there; and Mr Denny, the school’s eccentric singing-master, and his sister had told her they would be going, so the girls would be well chaperoned, even thought hey were to sit by themselves.


Why then is it OK for Joey to go on a long solo car trip with a man who may at this point have already declared himself as a suitor to her guardian? Does this feed into what Marie knows? (Given that Marie's pre-engagement situation, as befits an Austrian girl, with the Baron is clearly much more chaperoned - in fact, there's no indication they've ever been alone together...?)

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Not that I'm suggesting for a minute Jack is likely to put the moves on Joey in his car, just about the appearance of propriety.


I don't know, all that changing of gear sticks while she's sat next to him...

That's a really sweet idea, actually (them being alone in the car together, not Jack putting the moves on) and I'd never noticed that before. It would be lovely to think of Jack volunteering to do all of these things that he doesn't have to - he is just a doctor at the same place of employment as the husband of the ex-Head of the school, why's he running around picking up pupils? - just to try and get time with Joey. I'll just leave this little pile of goo I've melted into.

I'd say that he's a family friend, and so it doesn't matter. Presumably he's left alone in the house with Joey sometimes, and of course they know and trust each other. Whereas the people at the hotel could be anyone, and the girls are potentially younger. Joey has grown up enough to be trusted alone.

Author:  JB [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I like the scene in Lintons. It shows Joey and Jack being very natural and friendly together. They were collecting Mrs Linton as well as her daughters and I don't suppose there were that many drivers on the Sonnalpe who could have collected them (who weren't connected to the San).

It's an interesting point about chaperonage. I would have said that Madge would be more relaxed about this than the Tirolean parents (who don't seem to allow their daugthers to go anywhere without a chaperone) and that it's a different situation to taking the school to a public area to watch the Tzigane ie the school is in loco parentis, whereas Madge can make her own decisions about what's suitable.


Jack is a family friend who lives at Die Rosen (I think) and theyr'e going on a short journey to the station to pick up some guests and a San patient.

I assumed that Marie was romantic and more aware of these things than Joey (given that she's engaged by the time she's finished school) and that she'd picked up on Jack's attraction to Joey during the times she'd stayed at Die Rosen.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I like that they're both wearing rather cool caps - Joey's is fur and Jack's has ear-flaps. (Maybe they are even matching caps and the whole thing would be too adorable for words... :) )

And there's nothing obviously inappropriate about it (though I like Chubbymonkey's pervy ideas about unecessary gear-changing!) - and of course EBD just wants to introduce Joey to the Lintons as soon as possible. It just struck me that it could, if EBD were being strictly 'proper', as easily have been Jem, or one of the married doctors, with Joey, rather than young, unmarried Jack - or it needn't in fact have been anyone from the San, as the San people are travelling ahead in a separate ambulance with Nurse and Mrs Linton, and all the car needs is someone who can drive in snow. It wasn't so much that I thought it was 'improper' as that EBD usually bends over backwards to make everything just so, and she needn't have had a nubile schoolgirl Joey and the man she later marries (who is, we later discover, already in love with her) alone on a car journey here! She clearly doesn't think it improper, and I just wondered exactly why not.

Anyway, this is wildly OT. To go back to New House, I'll throw the cat among the pigeons and say that although schoolgirl Joey is in general at her very nicest here and in Lintons, I actually think that some of the Joey-Matron Besley stand-offs show Joey in a slightly bad light and to some extent justify some of Matron's feeling that she's conceited and treated with favouritism. Some of it isn't Joey's fault at all, because it's clear that Matron is a bit irritated by Matey telling her she should have noticed Joey had toothache - Matron Besley quite reasonably retorts that Joey is always pale, so how was she to know if Joey didn't report it -

Quote:
‘I don’t believe Jo would ever acknowledge to toothache if she thought she could brave it out,’ said the elder woman. ‘She simply dreads the dentist’s instruments. It’s part of her make-up, of course. She is a sensitive, highly-strung girl, with a natural shrinking from pain, and an overplus of imagination. You will find it well to keep an eye on her. I know she’s naturally pale; but that blanched, peaky look she has to-day isn’t natural. When you saw that, and those great shadows under her eyes, I can’t understand why you didn’t make inquiries.’


I do think it's unreasonable for Matey, who's known Jo for years and adores her, to expect a brand-new colleague to magically divine when she's covering up toothache and automatically give her special attention! Then you get Bill rubbing it in that
Quote:
‘Jo is a dear girl! You’ll soon find that out for yourself, Matron, if you haven’t found it out already.


In that kind of scenario, where everyone is telling her how wonderful, sensitive and special a girl she doesn't much like is, I can understand why Matron B feels that a schoolgirl is telling her how to do her job and pulling rank as Sister of the School Founder:

Quote:
. And in any case,’ she added, ‘before any rule can become a rule, it must be passed by Mademoiselle. And my sister, Mrs Russell, must pass it too.’
‘How dare you speak to me like that?’ cried Matron. “Understand at once, Josephine, that I will put up with no impudence form you, Head Girl or no Head Girl!’
‘I was only telling you what is always done here,’ said Jo, still in that deadly quiet tone.


Obviously Matron Besley subsequently behaves very badly, but I do see slightly where she's coming from here - it could seem as though Joey is subtly reminding her as though she, the schoolgirl, has the power and the CS experience... And I do think someone should have explained about not giving order marks to the prefects or going into their rooms to her - it's not her fault she's new and inexperienced, and even though it's not nice that she tries to shore up her importance by scolding the prefects in front of the others, it's understandable that she's trying to assert her authority.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I agree that it is kind of understandable. Especially as she was being put in charge of a new house and then Joey & co come along and suddenly take over, which must have been quite galling. It strikes me as far more of 'six of one' than entirely Matron B's fault, as the book seeks to portray it - though kudos to Joey for keeping her temper.

Author:  JB [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I agree with you about Matron Besley. She's only been in position for a few days before Matey has decided that she isn't "enamoured" with her. She's young and inexperienced, and surely would need more support than someone who'd worked in a similar role previously? For an experienced person in a new role, not to be told about procedures (eg not giving order marks to prefects) would be frustrating enough but it would be worse for someone who already feels unsure (and possibly contributed to her subsequent behaviour).

Jo doesn't behave like a "dear girl" in her dealings with Matron Besley, although I do smile at the conversation with Bill over the new reading in bed rule (although why the various new matrons have such a problem with this, I don't know).

The whole situation with Matron seems to me to be one that does arise in the workplace when someone simply isn't suited to a role.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

In CS-land, you are allowed to get into a car with, or be carried off by, any man, even if he's a complete stranger and for all you know he could be a mad axe murderer, as long as he says that he's a doctor!

I agree about Matron Besly - how on earth was she supposed to know that Jo had toothache? If she was keeping a particular eye on anyone, it would presumably've been the younger girls. It seems to be the start of the process whereby any new staff member who isn't an Old Girl and isn't familiar with the school's "little ways" (of which there are many!) can easily end up feeling like an outsider.

Author:  Tor [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I really love New House, even though I have only ever read the paperback version. It is a reallybitter-sweet book in so many ways, and I think EBD was really clever to move the Quartette over to St Clares, as - as others have mentioned - it makes the reader *feel* the wrench of leaving behind the comfortable, well-known and well-loved Original Chalet.

Nightwing I think you hit the nail on the head about the school 'growing up' in this book. I think EBD was asking her readers to allow the school to move on. In Joey, who (again, already pointed out by the various great minds above! :D ) has a somewhat anticlimactic, and rather plaintive wrap-up of her future life, I also think EBD gives a really perceptive portrayal of how an awful lot of upper-middle class girls muct have felt at the end of their school lives. It is also a fairly accurate portrayal of how I think a girl like Jo, who'd so voiciferously opposed growing up, would probably feel as they began to realise it was something that was going to happen no matter what. Rather than making plans for her future, she'd fought against the idea of it, and now was left with something of a (jack-shaped :wink: )void.

A few things I had to respond to, though OT:

Quote:
why on earth did he think some sort of "impostor" Margot might have appeared - was he confusing his family with the Romanovs?!!


Well, given Robin's heritage, I suspect he could be forgiven for this :wink:

And ChubbyMonkey... :shock: :shock: ! Thanks for ensuring I never look at that car-ride in Linton's on the same light again! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Tor wrote:
Rather than making plans for her future, she'd fought against the idea of it, and now was left with something of a (jack-shaped :wink: )void.


Yet again, that was an angle to it all that I'd never thought of before. I do wonder, though, what Joey could have done other than go to live with Madge; I like to think her "You don't get married until you've graduated" in 'Prefects' suggests that she wishes she'd done a degree in, maybe, English (which would also make getting her first book accepted seem more realistic!), but that would be about the only thing I can think of. Somehow, I've never been able to see her being a maid to Elisaveta, she's far too impatient!

Sorry for ruining the car ride :oops: I can't help myself sometimes.

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I'm another who agrees about Matron Besley getting a bit of a raw deal - that ticking off from Matey about her somehow not having noticed that Joey's not Everyday Joey-Pale, but Secret Toothache Chalky-Pale, is a bit mad! I have this vision of the poor woman taking surreptitious Polaroids of Joey at breakfast and trying to compare them with the day before - or maybe she was supposed to have a Joey Pallor Colour Chart or something!

Does EBD intend Joey to sound consciously rude when she has her namedrop Madge when she's telling Matron she can't add new rules without authorisation? I can't quite decide, but having her say 'my sister, Mrs Russell, must pass it' could arguably be seen as a quite intentional snub to Matron's newness and lack of authority, while implicitly making it plain that Joey herself has connections in the highest of high places, and it's her sister who makes the rules, not unimportant little Matron Besley. It sounds a bit like Tim Keith in AF's Kingscote books who wants to claim all possible privileges from being the Headmistress' Niece!

It does give some basis to Matron Besley's sense that Joey is 'conceited', and you can see why she gets even more irritated that Matey makes it clear that no one at the CS agrees, and that they're right and she's wrong!

Quote:
‘Matey’ eyed her thoughtfully. ‘I wonder just why you should think Jo, of all girls, conceited?’ she said. ‘That’s just what she isn’t.’
‘I consider her the most conceited specimen of schoolgirl I have ever met,’ retorted Matron Besly, her head well in the air.
‘Well, I advise you to keep your opinion to yourself,’ said Matron calmly. ‘You won’t find any sympathisers on that subject here. After all, we people have known her for some years. You have only been here two or three weeks.’
‘That’s probably just why,’ returned Matron Besly. ‘I have come fresh to the school, and see clear-eyed. You, who have been here so long, are naturally prejudiced.’


Yes, Matron B's behaviour does get worse and she behaves badly to Joey, but I can see why she is baffled by what seems to her like Joey's untouchability and why she flares out
Quote:
But I never yet toadied to anyone—even is she is the sister to one of the proprietors of the school!’


And while I'm in the unlikely position of defending Matron Besley, I'll add that something we're clearly supposed to criticise her for - that she resents having to supervise an 'extra' late Abendessen for the seniors - is pretty much the same thing as we often see Matey resenting, like having to supervise 'extra' needlework for girls who aren't Guides etc.

And I think it's a bit unfair the fact that Matron Besley is finally given her notice after she's hysterical in the storm when Alixe von Elsen sleepwalks - it's not her fault she's afraid of thunder, especially after all that stuff about Joey's highly-strung nervous system and the dentist! And it should be noted that all the girls and maids scream and cry in their beds, even Marie and Simone both stay in bed saying their prayers in fear, and Joey herself faints in fright at the sight of Alixe! I appreciate that Matron is staff and should have held it together, but at the same time maybe she didn't anticipate that it's normal CS behaviour for everyone to get up for several hours and have coffee and buttered rolls because there's a storm!

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I wish we heard more about Frieda's plans. Simone is going to uni. Marie has met Mr Right, and even if she hadn't then she came from the sort of background which would probably mean going to posh balls in pretty white dresses, but I get this rather depressing image of Frieda, who is such a lovely person, going to boring dinner parties to meet Gottfried's friends and her parents' friends' sons in the hope that she might click with one of them, and not having much to do otherwise except write letters to old schoolfriends. It'd be nice to think that she'd at least have the chance to get involved with committees and doing good in the community and that sort of thing, but we never see anyone (except Madge in Llan-y-Penllan in later years) doing much of that. And I'd like to think that Sophie Hamel got involved in her dad's business, but in reality she probably didn't.

I can understand Joey not wanting to grow up. All that lay ahead for her at this point was hanging around at Die Rosen as something of a spare part, and probably being told that she couldn't run around enjoying herself because it wasn't ladylike and she was too old for that sort of thing now. It was her own fault because I'm sure Madge would have been very supportive had she wanted to go on to further education, but even so.

Sorry, I've just made myself feel rather miserable now!


ETA - I know she's not actually an employee of the school at the time, but everyone is very understanding about Miss Denny's fear of water during the flood in Jo of. Matron B should have tried to control herself in front of the girls, but it still seems to be a case of one rule for popular people and one rule for unpopular people.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think that if Marie was going to posh balls and things she'd invite Frieda along; I can see her not getting on with society ladies (now just assuming they're like the stereotypical English society lady, ignore me :oops:) and needing to have Frieda to keep her morale up; plus it would give Frieda the chance to meet lots of eligible bachelors.

Sorry, Sunglass, I'm going to have to disagree with you over the thunderstorm, though I am firmly of the same opinion with regards to the rest of it. Even if she did panic at first, she should have tried to control herself, as this was likely to be a fairly regular occurence over long-term employment at the school. I'm terrified of spiders, but if I was stuck with a massive one and people under my care who were also frightened, I would obviously have to do something about it.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Tor wrote:
I also think EBD gives a really perceptive portrayal of how an awful lot of upper-middle class girls muct have felt at the end of their school lives. [...] Rather than making plans for her future, she'd fought against the idea of it, and now was left with something of a (jack-shaped :wink: )void.


That's exactly it - it sounds rather as though EBD, for all her apparent excitement about careers for girls, at this point thinks the same as Marie, that husbands and children are essentially a way of filling time, kind of like knitting or Sudoku puzzles!

Quote:
The husband, he may come,’ said Marie, her lovely face touched with deeper colour. ‘Then that would mean babies of your own for which you must do everything, and that is not a little thing, Jo. Your life would be very full and busy then.’


Also, a thing I never noticed before in New House, but which, along with Marie's knowing look, suggests another aspect of Joey's future - she owns a set of rosary beads and apparently prays with it quite often when she has difficulty sleeping! OK, Frieda gave her the rosary - it's not a secret gift from Jack or anything (and of course Jack is still possibly C of E at this point because he only seems to become a cradle Catholic in Exile!) - but it's kind of interesting all the same...? Suggests a deeper engagement with Catholicism already than simply sometimes attending Catholic services.

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:

Sorry, Sunglass, I'm going to have to disagree with you over the thunderstorm, though I am firmly of the same opinion with regards to the rest of it. Even if she did panic at first, she should have tried to control herself, as this was likely to be a fairly regular occurence over long-term employment at the school.


But think of a CS job interview that focused on real CS skills!

'Are you afraid of storms? Avalanches? Floods? Sleepwalkers? Snails? Being snowed into the Chalet in winter? Evil-looking dolls with luminous faces? Bubblebath? Goat's milk that tastes of onions? Large pink worms? Burglars? How about being woken suddenly in the dead of night by fireballs or unidentified wailing noises? Being marooned in a herdsman's hut, with or without the herdsman? Are you afraid of heights? Deep water? Thin ice? Mountain railways? Echoes? Large dogs? Are you prepared to strip to your underwear to make a frail rope of petticoats to haul a girl to safety? Lead the girls through a flooded stream armed only with a stick? Are you prepared to get up in the middle of a thunderstorm and organise coffee and rolls and singsongs?

And - here's the killer - can you do all that in three languages?

I'd fail on heights alone!

Author:  abbeybufo [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Sunglass wrote:
... And - here's the killer - can you do all that in three languages?


Love it Sunglass :lol:

Author:  JB [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Sunglass wrote:

Quote:
But think of a CS job interview that focused on real CS skills!


You beat me to it! I was imagining a "person specification" that listed the necessary and desirable skills of a candidate.

Author:  Mel [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Love it Sunglass. And also, my killer question would be 'Do you have a strong enough bladder to survive a night on a bus after drinking bowls of coffee/milk/chocolate?'

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Mel wrote:
Love it Sunglass. And also, my killer question would be 'Do you have a strong enough bladder to survive a night on a bus after drinking bowls of coffee/milk/chocolate?'

They didn't, if you remember - at least, Bill didn't. I've always assumed that's why she got out of the bus in the middle of the night....

Alison H wrote:
And I'd like to think that Sophie Hamel got involved in her dad's business, but in reality she probably didn't.


Not immediately, but later on she was, as she was able to authorise giving the school bolts of plain material to dye for costumes after there'd been a fire. I forget which book, but one of the later Swiss books - all the costumes for the pantomime have been burnt, and Sophie comes to the rescue with surplus from the store.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

:lol: Love the interview!

Author:  JayB [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Is Jo's lack of any definite plan for her life after leaving school all part of her resistance to the idea of growing up? When she says life will seem empty after leaving school, she's looking at it in terms of no longer having school activities to fill her time. Whereas Simone and Marie are definitely leaving school life behind and moving forward into adult life, Jo doesn't seem to be doing that.

Having said that, part of the problem for Jo is that the Sonnalpe is a relatively isolated place. If they still lived in Taverton, there'd be a whole range of activities available to her outside the home, voluntary work or educational or leisure activities.

Author:  Pado [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It's clear from even a cursory examination of the Jo character that she's entirely unsuitable to be a lady-in-waiting, even to a sympathetic friend like Elisaveta...and there may even have been a collective sigh of relief at the Belsornian court that they escaped such excitements. (I do not do drabbles. But someone should do this one!)

And I can imagine Jo, as a self-centered late adolescent, thinking that she was Needed to Prop Up the Family. That's certainly a predictable plotline in literature of the day, so I actually give EBD credit for not falling into it, although I'll take the credit away with the other hand, since Jo could have done so many more interesting things after leaving school.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

She first mentioned the idea of becoming an author when she was only 13, but then it seemed to fall into abeyance until she writes some sort of story for Daisy and decides to send it to a publisher. I wonder what happened there? Did EBD decide to scrap the idea of Jo becoming an author and only resurrect it later on as a way of giving Jo a career than could be combined with marriage and children, or did she always intend for her to become an author eventually, or was it just a casual comment made by a young girl - like Bride wanting to be a librarian at the Bodleian, Ros wanting to be an air stewardess, etc - which was never made very much of once they'd reached their later teens because it didn't seem very realistic?

I'm surprised that none of the CS ladies ever help out at the San - especially as it would be a good way of meeting doctors :lol: . Karen in EJO's Swiss books is a very good violinist and goes and plays for the patients at the San. I'm not sure that Jem would really have wanted Joey warbling The Red Sarafan at his patients, golden voice or no, but couldn't some of them've gone round visiting patients who had no relatives nearby or something like that?

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Pado wrote:
It's clear from even a cursory examination of the Jo character that she's entirely unsuitable to be a lady-in-waiting, even to a sympathetic friend like Elisaveta...


Indeed. you could hardly dream up a worse person for fetching and carrying and dealing with Court etiquette and routine - untidy, rather used to being the centre of attention and deferred to as Head Girl, still at times heedless - and definitely still tactless in Lintons, judging by her opening remarks to Joyce and Gillian, who are already understandably worried about their mother, that she has taken far longer than anyone at the Sonnalpe expected to make the journey from England.

(OT for New House, but I sometimes wonder whether Joey initially dislikes Joyce because elements of her remind her of herself, at least in her tactlessness - I wonder if Joey was secretly kicking herself for making Gillian at least even more worried by not keeping her mouth shut about the length of the journey, and that's why she's so quick to intervene when Joyce tactlessly asks Stacie whether she'll ever walk again..?)

Pado wrote:
And I can imagine Jo, as a self-centered late adolescent, thinking that she was Needed to Prop Up the Family. That's certainly a predictable plotline in literature of the day, so I actually give EBD credit for not falling into it, although I'll take the credit away with the other hand, since Jo could have done so many more interesting things after leaving school.


It does seem that Joey has herself worked out by New House (probably from holidays in Belsornia) that she'd be a bad fit as lady-in-waiting, and produces Sybil and the next Bettany baby as a pseudo-reason not to follow the original plan. And then finds that since Madge has been hiring childcare, she's really not needed as much as she thought and hasn't even that idea of being entirely necessary to Madge to console her for leaving school.

I actually think it's a really interesting decision by EBD to show talented, charismatic, imaginative Joey as just going to 'be at home' after school, despite explicitly making it plain this isn't a situation like other CS girls who are truly needed at home, and sometimes heroically give up their desired careers for the sake of it. EBD shows us Joey giving up something she clearly no longer wants and then finding she's not really necessary at Die Rosen either. And it's even more underlined for me in that EBD explicitly goes through all that year's CS leavers and tells us every one of them has 'work', study or training of some kind - Carla training as a singer, Eva becoming a kennelmaid in England, Sophie needed at act as governess for two smaller sisters until they are old enough for school - even Frieda is needed more obviously at Das Pferd, which presumably has less hired childcare, to help out with Gisela's new baby and toddler, and knows she will probably marry young. (In fact, I assume part of the reason in sending her to the Sonnalpe was to meet doctors in a ladylike, carefully-chaperoned way.)

It's clearly deliberate, but I'm not sure why she gives us a Joey who's so obviously at a loose end - it's not as if it's that flattering to Jack to suggest he could only make her marry him if she was bored to death! I know there's her writing, but in New House, it doesn't sound as though she's all that committed to the idea, and it's other people who remind her about it in consoling fashion.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I was under the impression that they did visit people at the San on occasion, though I can't think where I got the idea from!

Actually, the main reason I can come up with for Jo not having anything else to do is that she had to stay with the school, and this was the easiest way. She couldn't keep coming back like OOAO did, and if she was genuinely needed at home she would have been too busy to come down and see them, but this way she's got a really good excuse for always popping in and then having to teach etc, or getting involved in their excursions.

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Actually, the main reason I can come up with for Jo not having anything else to do is that she had to stay with the school, and this was the easiest way. She couldn't keep coming back like OOAO did, and if she was genuinely needed at home she would have been too busy to come down and see them


Sure, it just strikes me as interesting that EBD didn't write in an entirely watertight reason to keep her close by. Why make it so plain Madge is hiring another pair of hands and has an excellent nurse for her own two? Even if Joey had been 'really' needed at home, which seems the easiest reason to keep her around, she could just as easily have still been 'trapped' at the CS because of the measles quarantine at the Sonnalpe (assuming she'd nipped down to say hello for a single night at the start of term the way she does in Jo Returns).

In fact, thinking about New House in terms of Joey being left at a loose end makes me read Jo Returns differently - I now think Joey (after she's not allowed to follow her first impulse, that she's needed at the Sonnalpe to help with the sick children) is actually at some level genuinely pleased to have her duty - to help out at the CS to cover Mademoiselle's illness - pointed out so plainly to her. She's needed at the CS for that term in a way she's not quite at Die Rosen. In some ways, she's still searching for a role, and by the time she's finished helping out at the CS, she's established in her role as writer and no longer so obviously in search of what comes next.

Incidentally, I just noticed that in Jo Returns, Frieda is no longer at the Sonnalpe, but in Innsbruck (so her helping out Gisela was clearly pretty short-term). And even her 'duty' to help out the school by taking over some teaching is superseded by her aunt's accident, which means Frieda is 'needed at home' - even though she goes 'reluctantly'.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Most of the teachers have degrees by then, or Joey could have taken over as a teacher until EBD was ready to do something else with her. Con Stewart was engaged, so could have left to get married at any convenient point, leaving the school minus a history teacher ... but I'm not sure EBD really wanted to promote Joey to the adult world of the staffroom full time at that point.

Author:  JB [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I've always liked Jo Returns but I think EBD struggles to know what to do with Jo in New Chalet School. She moves the Russells down to the lake for the summer and then has Jo dropping in to the Chalet coincidentally on the night the prefects are staying up to find out what the middles are up to on the roof at night.

I don't think EBD could have continued doing that for long and I agree with Sunglass that it is interesting that EBD doesn't give Jo a more definite role. Perhaps she thought that if Jo were too busy with the Die Rosen nursery, she wouldn't have time to spend at the school? I also wonder at Jo's comment about what she'll be doing after she leaves school when she says that it "all seems so little". She doesn't mention writing in the list of things she'll be doing.

I've never thought New was a particularly strong title, although my view may be coloured by the fact that I had the Armada 1970s paperback and didn't know there was a second part to the book for more than 10 years. :roll:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I wish that EBD could just have written Jo out of the series, even if she came back at a later date, but obviously that wasn't what her publishers wanted. I've never quite understood that; she'd built up a strong support cast, it wasn't as if she'd have had to have invented a completely new character to become her heroine. In fact, personally I think that Corney was placed to take over - feel free to disgree! - rather like OOAO did later on, though in a less annoying fashion.

Author:  JB [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I was thinking about the supporting cast too, Ariel. In New, there are plenty of girls we know well who are still at the school eg Margia, Evvy, Corney, Stacie, but we barely see them. Instead we see a lot of the prefects who aren't characters we've seen that much of before and, of course, the Saints.

This was the point when her publishers felt the series was long enough and I do wonder if it would have continued once the war had intervened. I was reading something yesterday (sorry, can't remember where) that complimented EBD on her ability to reinvent the series when the need arose but I do think she found New a difficult book to write as she tried to find a new direction.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Alison H wrote:
but I'm not sure EBD really wanted to promote Joey to the adult world of the staffroom full time at that point.


It's a very tricky transition, when you think about it, between the Joey who's still a schoolgirl, beloved, but being ticked off soundly by mistresses for being impertinent to Matron in New House, and the semi-adult Joey of Jo Returns only a couple of months later.

Obviously, it clarifies her position somewhat when she essentially becomes temporary staff, but I'm always interested by the very start of the book, where she's only planning to stay overnight at school as a visitor. She walks in to Hall with the mistresses, then goes back to sit at the head of her old schoolgirl table with her former schoolmates, is reminded by Mademoiselle to go and have her elevenses in the prefects' room and still feels schoolgirlish enough to be jumpy when she's called to the study, but when she's thinking about staying for the weekend, the question is debated, apparently quite as a matter of course, by the entire staffroom, where she is relaxing with people who were teaching her until very recently!

It says a lot for EBD that she manages to carry it off without it seeming quite weird - it probably helps that people like Matey still treat her like a Middle, and even Miss Annersley reminds her about essay-writing errors from her schooldays now that she's writing a novel. But when you think that within a week or two of staying at the school Joey is already teasing Miss Leslie about dyeing her hair and starting to teach Polly Heriot, it makes it still odder that in some ways she's still very much a schoolgirl, going in to Hobbies with the school, using the senior splasheries. taking the Middles for prep like a prefect etc.

Author:  Mel [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It is surprising that Jo has no defined role and for how long could EBD have had Jo aimleesly popping into school? In New the family take over Die Blumen (surely bad for Robin who has to live higher up the mountain for health reasons). But it's interesting that there is no book straight after Jo Returns is there? It suggests that EBD couldn't think what to do in a book where Jo would be stuck up the Sonnalpe in the bad weather term. And at that stage she had settled into one book term.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I'm now imagining that if it was a drabble on here, Jem would have been killed off and Madge moved back to teach, setting up a kindergarten for all her child wards at the same time :twisted:

It's just struck me that part of the changes to the school a little later on are Miss Annersley officially taking over. That, of course, adds another little change to the school, which is gradually being eroded over time, and I do think that 'New House' marks the end of a golden era for the books, but also for the school.

(Please allow me the next paragraph; I'm an English student, I'm allowed to make stuff up sometimes! It's what we do best!)

In fact, in a metaphorical way, this is the book in which the school grows up; in the next book Mlle becomes ill, and that is the first major death that the series deals with in a way. It has to learn to start coping without Joey so much, and as it expands and starts to lose the family atmosphere of the earlier books (wow, death, loss of best friends and far more people than you're comfortable with, could be the university experience offered here!)

I'll stop spouting nonsense now :oops:

Author:  Tor [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I haven't quite thought this out yet, so bear with me, but I was wondering if EBD deliberately (or maybe subconsciously) avoided giving Jo an exciting and fulfilling future because *she* wasn't ready to draw the series to a close?

If she had tidied Joey off in a more satisfactory way, I think fans (and publishers) might have been fairly content to have the series end. But By leaving Joey's future uncertain, and little bit bittersweet, well, the series clearly hasn't finished - fans wouldn't be satisfied without Joey getting a suitably heroine-like ending, and this would put the pressure on the publishers to let EBD have a stab at taking the series beyond the end of Joey's school days....

Author:  cestina [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Much as I hate to spoil anyone's visions of surreptious gear-changing I feel it incumbent on me as one of the oldies on here to point out that the gears on a car of that period may well have been on the steering wheel column.....much harder to grope from there :roll:

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

How about the handbrake? He could take a route with a lot of traffic. Or lots of reversing, and having to bend over her to see behind him (am now imagining him as the Lynx man). I'm sure that he could be very creative if he tried!

I won't say that perhaps she encouraged him, I'm not that rude.

That makes sense to me, Tor; aside from anything else, I expect that it was making her a nice amount of money, and with any piece of writing there is always the temptation to take it further.

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I was under the impression that they did visit people at the San on occasion, though I can't think where I got the idea from!

I know Jem strongly discourages the girls from getting involved, other than those who have relations there, because he doesn't want them exposed to all the illness and death, which sort of makes it sound as though he's killing them off by the bucketload - but then, sadly, TB did, basically until the discovery of streptomycin and that family of drugs. And even today, for people with compromised immune systems, it's still a killer.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
there is always the temptation to take it further.


A phrase I initially genuinely read as being about what might or might not have happened between Jack and Joey on that fateful fur-capped, snowbound car journey with a lot of gear-changing and handbrake stops. :oops:

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Maybe Jem got Jack to drive Jo with the idea that something might happen on the journey :lol: . However fond he may have been of Jo, after that scene (in And Jo, or maybe it was Camp) in which she raced around Die Rosen in hot weather, upsetting all the kids and generally getting on everyone's nerves, I could imagine him being just a little bit less than ecstatic at the thought of her being there full time with no plans ever to move out :lol: . & maybe he was thinking that it was high time Jack got a place of his own instead of staying in one of the Russells' spare rooms for ever, and that he could kill two birds with one stone!

Author:  trig [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think EBD was unsure, at the time of Jo Returns whether to go down the EJO route of focusing on the older girls' lives or on the school, and presumably her publishers pressured her to do the latter. At the time of these books, I think she's settling on a compromise which doesn't really work. It would have been interesting to have at this stage a non-school based title perhaps based on the Sonnaple which had a good spread of characters.

Back OT with New House, I still generally cry over the last parts as leaving school is always a big break and the end of Joey's schooldays signals a big change in the series, and her own character. I don't agree that EBD was going to end the series because there's major characters introduced at this point, and lots of loose ends.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

You can't say anything on this board without it being misconstrued :roll: :lol: I love the thrust of Jem's potential thoughts. It's so logical, but sadly I don't think, at this stage, that Joey's going to humour him!

It makes me cry, too, trig. They all seem so grown-up, and I can never help picturing some sort of film-like ending with a panorama of the mountains and black-and-white pictures of Joey when she first arrived at the school, cuddling Rufus &cetera.

Author:  sealpuppy [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Lowering the tone a trifle - don't know about 1930s gears but in the mid sixties SLOC used to drive with his arm right round me to change gears. (I was very slim in those days, sigh). No seat belts and a bench front seat. And nobody bothered about drink-driving either. IT's a wonder we survived. :shock:

Author:  Karry [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Alison said
Quote:
Most of the teachers have degrees by then, or Joey could have taken over as a teacher until EBD was ready to do something else with her.
My sisters did their teacher ttaining in 1959 and 1968, and neither of them got a degree, but a Certificate of Education! My younger sister got a degree later. When I entered College of Ed in 1976, that was aslo for a Cert Ed!

Author:  janetbrown23 [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I started a Cert.Ed in 1976 too. Luckily I realised after one teaching practice that I would have probably run amok with a machete if I had carried on and that was training to teach first school 5-8 yrs old.

Author:  mohini [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Were you happy that EBD moved the “quartet” to the new chalet for their final term or would you have preferred them to stay at St Therese?
It was nice to see the girls move to new quarter. Jo , I feel , needed to move. The school must have been her only home before Madge got married. I wondered where she slept in the holidays when she was not visiting? The change was necessary. It would give them freedom and more responsibility. After reading Rescue, I was thinking when did the girls have a chance of waking up each other quietly (as Jo remembers by stroking Simone,s cheek). They must have had a chance here. ( A drabble anyone? Jo and Co waking up at night and going on rounds or dancing on lawns like EJO's )

Joey could be said to act responsibly when she meets Margot Venables and the children, yet Jem is initially angry with her. Any thoughts?
I feel Jem was shocked to see hear about his sister and hence was angry.
Do you think the development of Joey and her friends is shown as a gradual process over several books or does it happen suddenly?
The girls seem to grow up suddenly specially Marie.

Author:  JayB [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Quote:
Joey could be said to act responsibly when she meets Margot Venables and the children, yet Jem is initially angry with her. Any thoughts?

I can understand Jem initially being angry. He probably had some unresolved anger towards Margot for running away and, presumably, causing their parents a good deal of worry. And Jo and Frieda did disobey and did take a risk in going off with a stranger to a private room in a hotel. I can understand him thinking about what could have happened and overreacting a bit.

But I do think he was unnecessarily rude to Frieda and Kurt. It wasn't their fault that Jo (typically!) had blabbed about his private family affairs.

A quiet word with Jo in private at a later time about what she should and should not have done, with a suggestion that she should learn to be more discreet, would have been more appropriate.

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think that's right about the anger being mostly hurt and disappointment, and hence more about Margot than Joey, who unfortunately gets the brunt of it because she's there. I agree he's appallingly rude to Frieda, though - because it's not even that Joey blabbed, is it? Frieda is simply present when Margot bursts out with her story, and has had to tell Kurt something to explain why he needs to come and pick them up from the Anich. I doubt modest, gentle Frieda gave him a blow by blow account of Margot's elopement!

(And, really, isn't Jem being a bit self-centred in behaving as though it's his private family affairs that Frieda might be blabbing? Surely Margot's sufferings are, above all, her own affair, in which he doesn't factor, and if she has chosen to tell them to Frieda in extremis, I don't think he gets to bluster about how it might reflect on him if it became known...?) But he is shocked, and we don't always respond to shocks very attractively.

And presumably Jem would have seen it as even stupider if Joey had sent Frieda away and insisted on going alone to the hotel with Margot and the girls...? Not that I have a lot of patience with the idea that white slave traders were using small children as decoys to pick up schoolgirls mid-morning in Innsbruck, anyway! Or whatever it is Jem was afraid of. Joey deciding to go with Margot seems a lot less potentially unsafe than CS mistresses letting various girls be borne off to private houses after accidents by men who say they're doctors! (Thinking of the Bosherton lily ponds incident here, but there are others.) Joey isn't, I think, being unduly credulous - her initial reaction is cautious, she asks Frieda her opinion, and only goes with Margot when her story dovetails with what Joey knows about Jem's long-lost sister, and notices Primula's resemblance to Jem.

I'm never that sure what Jem thinks she should have done instead - surely not take Margot to the Mariahilfe, given that he's later horrified the Mensches know anything about the tale? Or continue to stand in the street and discuss fairly delicate family affairs in front of half of Innsbruck?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Presumably she should have directed Margot back to her hotel and promised that Jem would get in touch, then gone to the Mensches (think I'm remembering the scene right, it's been a while!) and asked for permission to ring the Sonnalpe to tell Jem. :dontknow:

Author:  Josette [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think it's reasonable to read this as Jem having had a shock and being both abrupt (because he's trying not to be emotional) and suspicious (because he desperately wants it to be Margot and is afraid of having his hopes dashed). It seems to me like quite a believable reaction - not a "reasonable" response but an understandably emotional one. (Perhaps we could also assume he might have rung the Mensches to apologise when he'd calmed down a bit?)

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Presumably she should have directed Margot back to her hotel and promised that Jem would get in touch, then gone to the Mensches (think I'm remembering the scene right, it's been a while!) and asked for permission to ring the Sonnalpe to tell Jem. :dontknow:


Sounds logical and sensible, and you're probably right. But I think in Joey's shoes - fairly sure it was Margot because of the matching story and Primula looking so like Jem, and also being pretty certain that this exhausted, ill woman at the end of her tether wasn't some kind of impostor or decoy - I would have worried that this seemed like a somewhat peremptory and chilly way of dealing with a family member who'd suffered so much. That it was erring rather too much on the side of caution?

I don't know - especially, I think, it's delicate with her being Jem's relative, given that Madge describes him as sometimes quite authoritarian with Joey (well, she actually says 'nasty'!) Joey presumably doesn't know how Jem really feels about Margot, and in her position, I'd worry about looking as though I was snubbing Madge's husband's sibling unneccesarily...? I think she did pretty well in the circumstances.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It is a very awkward situation. But I think that what makes me, at least, sort of side with Jem is the fact that we don't see Joey thinking about it - she just goes along. If EBD had said that she didn't want to annoy Jem by appearing to snub his sister, then it would have explained everything satisfactorily.

(Wow, how's this for a reversal of roles? :lol:)

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It was a no-win situation, really. Yes, they were meant to go straight to the Mariahilfe, but were they meant to ignore Daisy's pleas for their help? OK, she could have been luring them into a trap, but it seemed unlikely. &, when they found out who Margot was (and, as I said, I really do not understand why Jem thought some sort of "impostor" Margot would have turned up unless he'd been reading too many tabloid tales about the Romanovs), were they supposed just to leave her when she was so obviously in need of help?

I think he probably over-reacted just because of shock, though. It must all have been very difficult for him. I've got this rather sad image of him - and, as Margot was older than him, he may only have been in his late teens at the time - standing in the library of a big gloomy family home, being made to watch whilst his autocratic father crossed Margot's name out of the family Bible :( .

Author:  Mel [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think it was the only thing she could do. She was 17 and chose her own course of action, rather than 'obeying' Matron. I liked the way she booked another room for them.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Awww Alison, that's heartbreaking! :cry:

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

And, for soft-hearted Joey, who rushes off to save drowning puppies etc, she's quite cautious initially, I would have said. She doesn't sweep Margot into her arms and acknowledge her as a new family member. She gives a neutral- or surprised-sounding whistle and asks Frieda what she thinks, having introduced Margot only as 'This lady says she is Jem's sister.'

Come to think of it, there's a potential misunderstanding between what Joey asks, and what Frieda responds - I think Joey, baffled, and in an awkward situation, is asking Frieda 'Do you believe her? Tell me what to do, fast!' but Frieda's response is purely about the literal situation of whether or not Joey should go to the hotel, rather than whether she thinks Margot is an impostor. (Poor Frieda! How would she know?) So in a way, it's Frieda who moves beyond Joey's neutral 'standing in the street wondering if she's bona fide' response. Admittedly, after that, Joey does behave as though she fully believes Margot, long before Jem confirms it.

There, I have now made it all Frieda's fault, which I don't think ever happens anywhere else in the series! :devil:

Author:  Tor [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I don't think Joey could have done anything else, either. Even if Margot had been an impostor - and it seems like a very unlikely and person-specific tale to have made up - I think Joey and Frieda would have felt awful leaving an exhausted woman and two children behind. I don't think snubbing Jem's sister came into it, more that desire to help someone in need, and the guilt over not doing so (even if you think you are being duped - bloody hell, three times in the last two weeks I've given the price of a bus fare - 2 quid - to complete strangers, even though I suspect they were scamming me, just because (i) I like to think someone would help me if I was in need, or stranded somewhere, and (ii) the turmoil and upset I would feel at having to say no, and never knowing if I had not helped someone who needed it.)

But anyway... :D

ON top of this, we know that the Bettany's didn't do the cold, upper-class british thing of snubbing or refusing to help people who contravened social norms (like Madge and James Kettlewell), so it wouldn't have been Jo if she hadn't done what she did. And as Cosimo's Jackal says, for *her* she was quite reserved!

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

This may be more Jo Returns than New House, but I find it interesting that Margot goes to work at the CS as a matron. Other than Madge and Joey helping out sometimes, the only other time we see the mother of a young child working at the CS is when Simone's there in Lavender and Gay, which is different as for one thing it's in the exceptional circumstances of wartime and for another Tessa lives at the school with her, whereas Primula lives at Die Rosen and Margot presumably only sees her at weekends.

Jem was presumably in a financial position to be able to support his sister and her children, and would probably have thought that it was his duty as head of the family to provide for needy female relatives, and seeing as no-one objected to the idea of Joey hanging about at Die Rosen rather than getting a job they couldn't really have objected to Margot doing the same, so it seems likely that it was her own choice to take a job. (Incidentally, seeing as she was a nurse, couldn't they have found her a job at the San, so she could have lived at the Sonnalpe?) Maybe she thought that living under the same roof as her brother and sister-in-law 24/7 would be too much for all of them, but lots of people in CS-land have siblings living with them and it never seems to cause anyone else a problem. So it sounds as if it was some kind of insistence on wanting to be independent and pay her own pay, which isn't typical of CS characters.

We're given no explanation for her decision, and no-one - in a world where women with children, other than working-class women like Marie Pfeifen/Monier and her mother don't work - seems to question it.

I think she's a fascinating character. She goes against her parents' wishes/orders and runs off with an unsuitable man, whereas no-one else in the series (with the exception of Elma Conroy, whose relationship never goes beyond writing a few letters) ever seems to go near any unsuitable men, and then she goes back to work under circumstances in which no other CS character does. And she'd've been able to tell us all about Jem's past, which we never hear about! It's such a shame that EBD decides that she should just "fade out of life" and bumps her off in Exile :( .

Sorry, that was quite an essay :oops: .

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think that it's probably linked to her fierce independance, as seen in her running away, and also the fact that she'd been working for many years. I imagine that to someone not used to a genteel life, living at the Sonnalpe could have been very boring!

Author:  GotNerd [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Also, for someone who's been used to a degree of autonomy, spending all your time within easy reach of the long authoritarian arm of your desperately superior younger brother would become rather grating, I think.

If Joey, who has never had any meaningful independence, gets a little rankled by him, you can imagine Margot knocking him out.

Author:  shesings [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

GotNerd wrote:
If Joey, who has never had any meaningful independence, gets a little rankled by him, you can imagine Margot knocking him out.


Now that's something I'd pay good money to see!

Author:  JayB [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Quote:
seeing as she was a nurse, couldn't they have found her a job at the San

Maybe Jem thought she wouldn't be physically strong enough to be a nurse? As a matron at the School she'd mostly work 'office hours' except when someone was ill and there'd be no heavy lifting of patients.

Jem might also have thought it would be inappropriate to have his sister working for him, and it might have been awkward for Margot too - suspicion of favouritism, or that she was reporting nurses' gossip back to Jem. And would the other nurses have been mostly German speaking? Margot of course doesn't understand or speak German.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

GotNerd wrote:
If Joey, who has never had any meaningful independence, gets a little rankled by him, you can imagine Margot knocking him out.


:lol: :lol: :lol: .

I quite like the idea of Jem doing his autocratic masterful thing and Margot taking him down a few pegs by saying "Now, Jimsie," and telling everyone about some really embarrassing thing he did when he was a little kid.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Alison H wrote:
GotNerd wrote:
If Joey, who has never had any meaningful independence, gets a little rankled by him, you can imagine Margot knocking him out.


:lol: :lol: :lol: .

I quite like the idea of Jem doing his autocratic masterful thing and Margot taking him down a few pegs by saying "Now, Jimsie," and telling everyone about some really embarrassing thing he did when he was a little kid.


Leaves lot of chocolate for the plot bunny, hoping Alison will write a drabble about just that :lol: Pretty please, with sugar on top and a cherry

Author:  Mel [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I always think that she would have been better as matron at the Annexe, then she would have been close to Primula. If the Annexe needed anything it would be a matron with all those delicate tots!

Author:  hac61 [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

JayB wrote:
Margot of course doesn't understand or speak German.


Then how did she cope on German days at the school?

Author:  Amanda M [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

hac61 wrote:
JayB wrote:
Margot of course doesn't understand or speak German.


Then how did she cope on German days at the school?


Am I right in thinking that at this stage of the school all classes were in English. Didn't the trilinguilism come in later towards the Swiss years?

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

They had different languages on different days in the later Tyrol books too. Presumably matrons, domestic staff and visiting music teachers were all expected to be trilingual as well :roll: .

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

But in the Tirol days they really did practice total immersion because it was the native language, and they wouldn't be as secluded as on the Platz. I imagine that, especially on the lake, Margot would have picked up the rudiments, at least, fairly quickly.

Author:  emma t [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I love this book; esp the band which Corneilia sets up - even now whenever I re-read it, I laugh :D


Didn't someone say in the chalet school that you can't help but pick up a language when you hear all the time, and she said she even found herself dreaming in any language? Maybe Margot was also given a few lessons from Jo or Madge during the holidays to help her understand German a bit better.

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Perhaps Margot already knew some German? True, when she meets Jo she doesn't seem to know a word of the language, but she's also scared and exhausted and probably wouldn't have had much chance to speak it for the last ten years or so. If she had learned it as a schoolgirl, or holidayed abroad before she met Stephen, perhaps she would have remembered her German once her life had calmed down a little.

Author:  JayB [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Quote:
Maybe Margot was also given a few lessons from Jo or Madge during the holidays to help her understand German a bit better.


And at the school it wouldn't matter so much if she was slow in speaking and understanding or made mistakes with her German. Whereas at the San she might be dealing with medication or medical emergencies where a mistake or a delay could be serious.

But I think her lack of physical health and strength would have been a greater reason for her not to work as a nurse.

Author:  emma t [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

What did Margot do previously before she married against her parent's wishes? Were we ever told?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I think that she would have had to have been quite young when she ran away for the number of singleton children she had. We can assume that Jem was still only in his early thirties at latest, which means that she would have been in her mid-thirties (ish!) again at latest. I've always imagined that she ran away at eighteen, which is also why she made such a "bad" choice against her parent's wishes.

Author:  JayB [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

emma t wrote:
What did Margot do previously before she married against her parent's wishes? Were we ever told?


Not in New House, but in Jo Returns, we're told:
Quote:
before the unfortunate marriage which had taken her out to Queensland, [she] had been a nurse in a big sanatorium in England, though she was not as fully trained as Matron Lloyd, who was head of that side.

Author:  emma t [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It also seems a coinsidence that Joey and Frieda should be the ones to stumble across Margot in Innsbruck. What would have happened if she had not met them? I know she knew about the Chalet School being in the vacinity; but if she maybe did not know any German at the time; how would she have managed in asking about how to get to The Chalet School?


Not in New House, but in Jo Returns, we're told:
Quote:
before the unfortunate marriage which had taken her out to Queensland, [she] had been a nurse in a big sanatorium in England, though she was not as fully trained as Matron Lloyd, who was head of that side.
[/quote]

Thanks for this! I was not sure!

Also I think it's a shame that Margot was not in the books long; even if she is mentioned quite a number of times throughout the seriel and the Prize is nammed after her ' The Margot Venables Prize'. It's sweet of Joey to name one of her triplets after her; to please Daisy - again Joey at her best. That and the fact that she plays quite a big part in Margot's daughter's lives from the moment they do meet in Innsbruck.
Quote:

Author:  2nd Gen Fan [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I agree that this really shows Joey at her best - as though she takes on a certain level of responsibility for Daisy and Primula from this first meeting in Innsbruck. Margot having the independance to work as a Matron (in EBD land, where women always stay ay home!) does also give a glimpse of how strong a character she was when she was younger.

Author:  Mia [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Quote:
[she] had been a nurse in a big sanatorium in England, though she was not as fully trained as Matron Lloyd, who was head of that side.
[/quote]

Could that be Great War-related?

Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Given Jem's station and private income (in that he could afford to start the San in the first place) would it have been unusual for Margot to have worked? It would make sense for her to have taken up nursing during the First World War, though. Maybe that's how she met Stephen? *has no idea about the dates or ages*

Author:  JB [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It makes sense to me that it's war-related. New House is mid-1930s, say 1935 and Daisy is 12 at that point, that could just about fit. I think she was the second of Margot and Stephen's children.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

There are, needless to say :lol: , EBD-isms about Jem's age, and of course the dates change anyway as School At ends up being c.1930 even though it was published in 1926, but I think the usual consensus is that Jem was born in about 1895. Margot was older than him, so would have been in her 20s during the Great War, so IMO it makes sense that she'd've been a war nurse. It's also been suggested that Stephen's problems might have been due in part to shell-shock.

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Does this help or hinder speculation about Margot's previous nursing experience and WWI?

Quote:
‘Is Frau Venables older or younger than Dr Jem?’ asked Frieda.
‘Three years older, I believe. She must be about thirty-eight, I should think. I’m not sure, though.’


Not sure about the year New House is set - the various datings of the pre-war books always flummox me.

Author:  JB [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I worked out that if you take the Anschluss as a fixed point and assume the school began in 1930, New House takes place in 1935. However, this is debatable as it isn't certain how much of a gap there is between New and Exile. I favour 18 months because it allows for Joey's trip to India.

That would make Margot 18 in 1915, so it would work.

* Hopes all these sums work out *

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Jem's age is given as 48 in Rescue, which is 1943, which I assume is why his DOB is usually given as 1895, but that doesn't fit with New House because that must be c.1934 and there's no way he can be 35 in 1934 and 48 in 1943 ... and I don't think his age is given anywhere else. Joey does say she's not sure, though, which interestingly suggests that she doesn't know how old Jem is :lol: .

If Margot was 38 in, say, 1934, then she'd've been born in 1896 (ish). Going off Jem's age in Rescue, she'd've been born in 1892. So either way she'd've been old enough to be a nurse during the First World War: AFAIK women under 21 couldn't nurse at the front, but were still able to nurse at hospitals in Britain. It makes a lot of sense to me: the Russells must have been a very wealthy family for Jem to've been able to set up his own San when he was in his mid-30s, so it seems unlikely that Margot would have had a job under normal circumstances, but in wartime it would have been different.

Author:  abbeybufo [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I learned quite recently that my great-grandfather's youngest sister was a nurse at the age of 17 in WW1 and married a New-Zealander who was invalided from the War to a Dorset hospital, and of course went out to NZ with him after the War - much to the distress of several of her family here ...

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

...You aren't related to any nice doctors, are you, abbeybufo?

Re ages, I never could do maths (I famously said that 10% of £30.00 was only 30p off), so I tend to adhere to the EBD school of thought which is that they can be as old or young as I need them to be! At the very least she seems to have got their ages right within two separate timelines; so I think we just need to decide which timeline is the "real" one and stick to that!

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Alison H wrote:
Joey does say she's not sure, though, which interestingly suggests that she doesn't know how old Jem is :lol: .


Excellent point! Perhaps Jem is terribly vain and conceals his age because he likes it assumed he is younger than he is (and maybe he likes it being thought he's achieved great eminence in his profession at a relatively young age...?) Or maybe he's in one of those True Stories situations where he lied about his age to Madge initially and now has to pretend to be years younger than his real age, or confess... Or else it's all bound up with his mysterious possible Afrikaans-speaking past identity in espionage or something... :D

I like the idea of Joey trying to sneak a peek at his birth cert at Die Rosen...

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Maybe one of these days inspiration will strike and I'll be able to write a drabble about why Jem spoke Afrikaans, exactly what went on between Margot and her parents about Stephen, what happened to Jem's Elsie-reading aunts whom he never visited, where Jem came from originally and why we're never told about it, how he came to have such close contacts in Germany that he knew in advance when the Nazis were about to invade Austria, and all the other fascinating things about the Russell family! I like the idea of David and Sybil unearthing some great family mystery. Unfortunately, at the moment I'm devoid of ideas :( .

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Shall I leave my plot bunnies here for you then, Alison? I love reading your drabbles, and I don't have time for another one of my own at the moment! Plus you'll do it far better than I could.

*leaves a little pile of bunnies and bunny food hopefully*

Author:  JB [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

* Adds to the pile of bunny food *

An Alison drabble with my first cup of coffee is one of the best ways to start the day.

I could see David and Sybil exploring a mystery while sorting out Jem's papers after his death. There could be retrospective parts to the story where we see what actually happened.

Author:  sealpuppy [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Oooh er! Obergruppenfuehrer Joachim Rozel?? Ripped off his uniform after a handy shell took out the rest of his platoon and jumped into a British trench??? (Speaking perfect English of course). Would explain why he was a bit miffed when Margot turned up!

Author:  JB [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Now i'm seeing a mixture of The Nine Tailors (soldier pretending to be someone else) and Ice Cold in Alex (where the German soldier pretends to be South African). I do know i'm mixing up my wars .....

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Margot could always have lied about her age, though, or worked as an ambulance driver? Or she could have been involved in other roles where she was exposed to injured troops despite not actually being a trained nurse.

Sorry, I just read A rose for the ANZAC boys which really opened my eyes to just what young women were doing during WWI - important and often overlooked work :(

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Joey might well have not known Jem's age, as she was considered a child, and back then, children were not allowed to know grown-up's ages. I don't know why, but it was thought very rude to ask, even as late as the 1950s. I didn't know how old my mother was until I was about ten.

Author:  emma t [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I never knew that about not asking about an adult's age :P though I guess back then, 'children were seen and not heard' usually, though Joey was often included in disussions with Madge and Dick before the Chalet School was established; Madge still included her younger sister in matters throughout the terms, and points out that they have never left her out on family matters.

Author:  delrima [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

The standard answer by an adult when I was a kid to such an impertinent question would be "As old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth." Actually, thinking about it, even now as a 55 year old, I would be a bit put out by a kid (if I didn't know them that well) asking such a thing because it's so ingrained that it is a 'bad' thing to do.

Author:  Lesley [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I can understand not asking an adult in general about their age - but this is Joey and Jem. Jem is Joey's brother-in-law, married to her older sister. Surely, at some point, when Madge was first engaged, she would have had a conversation with her sister, Joey, along the lines of, 'well his name is James Russell but always called Jem, he's a doctor, he's ** years old, comes from **** ' - you get the picture!

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Lesley wrote:
Surely, at some point, when Madge was first engaged, she would have had a conversation with her sister, Joey, along the lines of, 'well his name is James Russell but always called Jem, he's a doctor, he's ** years old, comes from **** ' - you get the picture!


But she wouldn't need to! Joey knew who Jem was, she knew that he was a doctor, and presumably she knew enough about him to know that he was good enough for her sister; after all, EBD hints very heavily that Joey had intended them to be together for some time.

I still couldn't tell you how old my brother-in-laws are, though I could make an educated guess probably within a few years (though of course I wouldn't know how accurate I really was!)

Author:  Lesley [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Don't you? Different families then - I know how old both my sisters-in-law are - and their birthdays.

The above conversation was just an example mind, I'm sure Madge and Joey must have had more chats about Madge's intended and it seems very strange to me that Joey would not know how old Jem was.

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Madge does make a point, not long before her wedding, that Jo and Jem know each other well and that Jem will be like an extra brother to Jo, in contrast to the relationship they have with their sister-in-law Mollie whom, however nice she may be, neither of them have even met at that stage.

I don't for a minute that EBD intended us to think that Jem was anything other than what he seemed, but Joey not knowing his age, the fact that we're told nothing about his origins, his knowledge of a language you would not expect him to speak, the fact that he seems to consider it likely that an "impostor" would pretend to be his sister and his eagerness to keep his family affairs secret from Kurt, Frieda and anyone else do all sound like clues in some sort of thriller when you read the books as an "adult" :lol: .

Author:  Nightwing [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Well, his first name is James... perhaps for a wee while his last name was "Bond"...?

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Well, there is that famous line on the penultimate page of School At:

Quote:
"My name's Russell - James Russell"


:wink: .

And whom does he employ as his secretary at the San but Ted Humphries, the man who had to go to work in the Soviet Union so urgently that he left his 6-year-old daughter with complete strangers.

I think maybe I should go to bed now ...

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

It dcoes make one feel that a book called Behind the Chalet School should have been a revelation about it acting as a front for an international spy ring run by Jem and Ted Humphries...

Author:  JB [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Sunglass wrote:

Quote:
It dcoes make one feel that a book called Behind the Chalet School should have been a revelation about it acting as a front for an international spy ring run by Jem and Ted Humphries...


You mean your copy isn't? I'd planned next week's discussion on BTCS on just this topic. :lol:

Author:  emma t [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

So how old do we think Jem is? I know a bit later in the seriel ( Jo to the rescue, I think) it is stated that Jem doesn't look his 48 years, and it doesn't seem THAT long since New House. I never could grasp the ages, and even when I try and work it out it gives me a headache :banghead:

Another point; way off the mark! Does Jem know Ted Humphries before meeting Madge? Or does Madge suggest him to be his secretary when he returns from The Soviet Union?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

I don't imagine that Jem knew Ted; isn't it that Ted knew Mr and Mrs Bettany and that he was nice to Madge and Dick when they died? I know that the connection is on that side! *is too tired/lazy [delete as applicable] to go and look*

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I don't imagine that Jem knew Ted; isn't it that Ted knew Mr and Mrs Bettany and that he was nice to Madge and Dick when they died? I know that the connection is on that side! *is too tired/lazy [delete as applicable] to go and look*


It is through Madge because she asks Joey if she even remembers Ted Humphries in Jo of when she's talking about Robin coming to school

Author:  JB [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Struggles to think - Ted is at the Sonnalpe in Head Girl. Is there mention of him in Princess or did he return during the Visitors term?

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Madge says in Jo of that he'll be coming to work as Jem's secretary when the San opens. He was around in Princess because, although I don't think we actually "see" him, we're told that he's been giving Jo Russian lessons which is how she's able to understand Cosimo when he speaks to Ternikai in Russian.

However, Robin goes to England with Jo, Grizel and Miss Maynard at the beginning of Head Girl, which is odd because surely she should've been spending Christmas with Ted :? .

Author:  ammonite [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Quote:
It does make one feel that a book called Behind the Chalet School should have been a revelation about it acting as a front for an international spy ring run by Jem and Ted Humphries...


Is Madge 'M' then or is that Margot?

Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ammonite wrote:
Quote:
It does make one feel that a book called Behind the Chalet School should have been a revelation about it acting as a front for an international spy ring run by Jem and Ted Humphries...


Is Madge 'M' then or is that Margot?


Or Matey? :D :D

Author:  JB [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

sunglass wrote:

Quote:
Quote:It does make one feel that a book called Behind the Chalet School should have been a revelation about it acting as a front for an international spy ring run by Jem and Ted Humphries...

Is Madge 'M' then or is that Margot?

Or Matey?


Definitely Matey. That would explain the confusion over surnames. :lol:

Author:  Liz K [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: at the confusion over Matey's names.

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

So was Jem behind that train crash in School At? Perhaps he'd set it up to catch some nefarious villain, and unwittingly endangered innocent lives in doing so, which is why he had to rescue Madge. He never expected to see her again, but while chasing down an informant on skates he crashed into Joey - losing his quarry, but finding something even better. He gave up doing the leg-work and took up more of an admin role in his... organisation.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

He was also responsible for the many accidents incurred during the life of the CS, as he discovered various counter-spies planted by the enemy in the form of schoolgirls (a la Gertrud Becker (sp?)); this he passed on to Jack when the school moved to Switzerland, which also explains Jack's odd family relations and changing religion.

Author:  emma t [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
He was also responsible for the many accidents incurred during the life of the CS, as he discovered various counter-spies planted by the enemy in the form of schoolgirls (a la Gertrud Becker (sp?)); explains Jack's odd family relations and changing religion.


Didn't Jem also know someone who knew information back in Exile? Nothing had been heard by any one else, but he had a friend...in high places?! Definitly a good start for the said plot :lol:

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

ammonite wrote:
Quote:
It does make one feel that a book called Behind the Chalet School should have been a revelation about it acting as a front for an international spy ring run by Jem and Ted Humphries...


Is Madge 'M' then or is that Margot?


I was going to suggest Professor Richardson as 'Q', with the mad inventor image, space-age gadgets and the mysterious box, but the timeline doesn't quite work out, as the San and School are no longer at the Tiernsee by the time he's hanging out in the Tiern Pass... Pity.

Author:  sealpuppy [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Miss Moneypenny is clearly an Old Girl of the school - cool, calm, efficient, and a total absence of spineless jellyfishiness. But what is her real name? I have two candidates: Stacie Benson, recruited to work on Enigma at Bletchley Park and maintaining her academic 'front' once peace was declared. Or maybe it's Betty Wynne Davies - whisked away on the pretext of being a Bad Influence, but really recruited by SOE and parachuted into France to seduce Nazi generals. :D

Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

That's awesome, sealpuppy! Although personally I love the idea of Betty and Elizabeth working together as double agents in the Cold War... neither of them sure who the other one was really working for, but both of them have to trust the other in life and death situations 8) :lol:

Author:  emma t [ Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Growing Up - New House at the Chalet School

Sunglass wrote:
And I think it's a bit unfair the fact that Matron Besley is finally given her notice after she's hysterical in the storm when Alixe von Elsen sleepwalks - it's not her fault she's afraid of thunder, especially after all that stuff about Joey's highly-strung nervous system and the dentist! And it should be noted that all the girls and maids scream and cry in their beds, even Marie and Simone both stay in bed saying their prayers in fear, and Joey herself faints in fright at the sight of Alixe! I appreciate that Matron is staff and should have held it together, but at the same time maybe she didn't anticipate that it's normal CS behaviour for everyone to get up for several hours and have coffee and buttered rolls because there's a storm!

I can see your point, Sunglass, but at the same time, Matrons are meant to be looking after the pupils rather than cowering in their own room being looked after!
They are in a very demanding position; they are expected to cope if someone is ill; how can Matron Besley be expected to be trusted in such a situation and position if she is going to behave thus? In my line of work we are taught not to panic( I am a care assistant) in emergencies but I suppose it's human nature if you are scared of something to panic.
Maybe Matron Besley did not like Joey simply because she was so popular, and in her own way did like the girl inspite of everything?

Onto the romance issue I have never noticed that Marie knew that there was anything more than friendship between Jack and Jo, though it is a lovely idea! I suppose because she is in love herself with the Baron, she would notice it a bit more than say Frieda or Simone

I guess that Jack and Jo are trusted enough to be alone together,having been friends for many years. Does any one else think that Jack may have had the same talk with Jem that Reg had with him over Len? It's an interesting thought :wink:

All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/