The CBB :: View topic - Books: Growing Up

Joey comes across very snappy and moody, which, when you think of it, she would be at her age. I really disliked her treatment of Stacy and her refusal to listen to Marie's very reasoned opinion that the Robin's condition could have little to do with Stacy.

I've just this morning finished reading a book about Oberammergau, so please would people indulge me if I waffle about the subject for a couple of minutes :oops:

? All being well, I'm going to see the Passion Play this summer (I wanted to go in 2000 but didn't realise how far in advance it was advisable to book and left it too late :oops:

). We only get the legal minimum number of days off work and have to take some of them on days chosen by our loathsome bosses (which is unfortunately legal), so choosing holidays is something I have to put a lot of time and care into, and also it's costing more than I'd normally spend on a holiday, so it's a really big deal for me. The point of that drivel (there is one, honestly) is that I don't think it's a decision I'd've made had EBD's description of it all not made such a big impression on me when I first read this book as a kid. I know that plenty of other CBB-ers are going, and or have been in the past ... if any of you've had the patience to read all this, did And Jo play a big part in your wanting to go, or is it something you'd've done anyway? It's a cultural thing for me, so maybe it's different for people who see it as a religious thing.

Sorry for going off at a tangent :oops:

. As I said, I've just finished reading a book on it so the subject's right at the forefront of my tiny mind!

I'm never entirely sure what to make of the bizarre storyline of the Guides "adopting" Biddy either, but Biddy's one of my favourite characters so I'm very glad they did

‘I’m not a baby now,’ said Jo.
Madge smiled. ‘No; that is true, Joey. But when it comes to health, I’m afraid you must still be content to be treated as a child. You are so careless, Jo; and while you are growing at such a rate, it’s so necessary for you not to strain yourself in any way.’

the last remnants of the school-boy who had been influenced by a sister fell away from him, and he sat up a man.

The Juliet/Donal thing really didn't interest me when I first read it aged 10 or so - though I do seem to recall thinking he was a bit weak-willed to take his sister's word so easily.

Funnily enough, at that age the Biddy storyline seemed perfectly reasonable and logical

Just to finish as I started, on a tangent, I'd love to go and see the Passion Play but don't think it will be for many years to come yet!

Off topic, but I wonder how much of the Middles' naughtiness was down to puberty? They were about that age. I know girls developed later years ago, but it's now generally recognised that hormones start raging before the physical signs appear. Of course, EBD could not possibly have put anything the Middles did down to that.

But can you imagine what would happen if all the CS girls obeyed their hormones rather than the rule of the school and being ladies?

I find Gisela and Gottfried's attitude really annoying, actually: after Jo has left, they talk about how it's a good idea for Jo to be HG as she needs to accept that she has to grow up, which is fair enough, but then they have this really irritating Smug Married conversation about how "all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too".

She does make some remarks about how only a few years ago Gisela was having fun at school and now she's darning Gottfried's socks and looking after a baby. I find Gisela and Gottfried's attitude really annoying, actually: after Jo has left, they talk about how it's a good idea for Jo to be HG as she needs to accept that she has to grow up, which is fair enough, but then they have this really irritating Smug Married conversation about how "all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too". It's very nice that they're happy with their life, but the way they assume that everyone else must want that lifestyle too and that if they say they don't it's just because they're immature is really irritating. Maybe they'd have felt differently had Jo had an alternative plan, such as wanting a career in teaching or nursing, but it's annoying even so!

"all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too".

I had also always read that bit as referring to Natalie. And in that context I think it is a perfectly normal thing to say. Well, I think similar things about my 2 year old.

Edited to add - Yikes; it occurs to me that if the Passion Play that Joey & co went to was in 1934, which it must have been, the one I went to in 1970 was closer in time to it (only 36 years) than it is to this year's (40 years). Now I really DO feel old!

But she's also coming up to the Sonnalpe, and Dr Jack, and I have a sneaking suspicion that just about everyone must have known of his intentions by then, especially people so close to him - so why shouldn't they assume that once Joey's grown up she'll be coming home to be married to him?

Jo, on the other hand, just can't be bothered with the responsibility. It's not unrealistic, and the way she takes on the job and tries her best with it in the end is very well-presented, but it does annoy me the way that she's later spoken of as the perfect CS girl.

It's almost like she has regressed, maturity-wise (not unusual in hormonal teenagers, it must be said), and that part of this may be due to frustration at the fact that she has a future that looks like falling in to the 'only' staying at home category...?

Do we hear of any girl in the CS having her personal maid? Maybe the Eschenaus?

Mrs. Lannis is not going, but her French maid will be there, so that the girls won't be left alone while he is at his meeting. He hoped you would go, Mrs. Russell; but if you couldn't, he says Suzette is quite capable of looking after them. They will, of course, promise to do as she says.

Could anyone tell me if alot was cut out of the pb?

Do people think EBD didn't realise what she was doing or that Mademoiselle couldn't then tell Joey off for doing it as she was also Madge's sister?

One thing I do think she does as Head Girl is exceed her authority in cases. When Margia and co are found out about hiding Biddy, the Head, Mademoiselle and the mistresses do tell them off for it and yet Joey insists on summoning them to a Prefects meeting to do it again. I don't remember a single instance in the entire history of the Chalet School where the Head Girl and prefects insinuate that the ticking off the Head would give won't be good enough so we better finish the job.

Gisela is praised for involving Madge when Juliet refuses to submit to the prefects' authority (and I'm surprised that so few people do that - most of them meekly obey the prefects' every word), but the idea is generally that the staff should be left out of things.

Author:	JB [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
The Chalet School and Jo is the seventh book in the Chalet School series. It was first published in 1931, the same year at The Feud in the Fifth Remove. It was reprinted in all of the Armada editions from the 1970s onwards. Jo Bettany is not looking forward to the new term at the Chalet School. Her carefree days are over; she is to be head-girl and feels that all her fun will be spoilt. Wise words from the first head-girl, Gisela Marani, now Gisela Mensch, go part way to reconciling her to her fate, however, and she comes down to the Tiernsee from the Sonnalpe determined to do her best. But Joey's first weeks in the post are overshadowed with worry about the Robin. Always frail, the little girl is now showing signs which may be symptoms of the dread disease which carried off her mother. Juliet Carrick, nearing the end of her course at Holloway and looking forward to taking over the new Chalet School venture on the Sonnalpe, joins the school for half-term, a decision which has far-reaching consequences for her future consequences when Joey intervenes to reverse a romantic tragedy. Evvy, Elsie, Corney, Maria and Ilonka contrive to give the quiet village of Oberammergau something to talk about, but the Passion Play is a complete success with the girls. The sobering influence of the play does not last, however, and before long the five sinners, with the addition of Margia's leadership, throw themselves into a situation which changes the whole life of one small girl. Thanks to the New Chalet Club for this synopsis. The full synopsis and spoilers can be found here: http://www.newchaletclub.co.uk/ncc_library/synopses/synop_chaletandjo.htm This week’s discussion will focus on the theme of “growing up” but please do comment on any other aspects of the book too. Here are a few questions to start things off: Joey has protested about becoming Head Girl since she first heard of it at the beginning of Eustacia. Is her change of heart presented realistically? Do you think Joey is a good Head Girl in this book? Is she sufficiently mature? Are her friends also maturing? Joey has previously complained about the engagements of her friends yet here she goes out of her way to repair the relationship between Juliet and Donal. Do you think this shows a more grown up Joey or her childish impetuousness? Jo has to deal with the worry of Robin’s illness and the thought that she may be dying. How do you feel she handles this? The Robin herself is growing up and is now 11. Is this a surprise, given the way by the family behave towards her? Do you think we can see a difference between the Joey of less than a year earlier, who endangered her own life in rescuing Maureen from the ice and floured people’s hair, and the Joey we see in this book? In another year, Margia and Elsie will be prefects. Do we see any signs of them maturing here

Author:	rugbyliz [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I have often wondered if her continued protesting was because having said she didn't want to do it at first she felt she ought to go on saying so. (does that make sense?) I know when i was told I was going to be going to boarding school (alas not the Chalet School) I protested lots and even when I had realise I did actually want to go I felt I could not say so.... This is one of my favourite books. I loved the description of the Passion Play and was pleased that the middles were allowed to be themselves even here! I am not sure about signs of maturing from Evvy and Co..it is a while since I read this book. Maybe I will re-read and think!

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I find the scenes with Jo not wanting the job and not wanting to grow up very realistic, and it's lovely that Gisela helps her. It just winds me up later on when EBD rewrites history and harps on about what a great leader Jo was . & I like Jo's decision to appoint Stacie as editor of the Chaletian - Stacie had suffered more than pretty much any other CS girl, and Jo's own behaviour towards her (blaming her for Robin's health problems) didn't help, and being given this job to do obviously meant a lot to her. Juliet's relationship with Donal is fascinating because it's the only time in the series that a CS girl/mistress's romance doesn't run smoothly (other than when Evvy tragically loses her fiancé in the war, which is obviously a different scenario). I wish Juliet'd told Donal where to go, because she deserved better than a wimp who'd dump his girlfriend because his snobby sister told him to, and I don't know why on earth the Hillises chose to go on holiday to, of all places, the area where Juliet's guardians lived, but that's beside the point! I've just this morning finished reading a book about Oberammergau, so please would people indulge me if I waffle about the subject for a couple of minutes ? All being well, I'm going to see the Passion Play this summer (I wanted to go in 2000 but didn't realise how far in advance it was advisable to book and left it too late ). We only get the legal minimum number of days off work and have to take some of them on days chosen by our loathsome bosses (which is unfortunately legal), so choosing holidays is something I have to put a lot of time and care into, and also it's costing more than I'd normally spend on a holiday, so it's a really big deal for me. The point of that drivel (there is one, honestly) is that I don't think it's a decision I'd've made had EBD's description of it all not made such a big impression on me when I first read this book as a kid. I know that plenty of other CBB-ers are going, and or have been in the past ... if any of you've had the patience to read all this, did And Jo play a big part in your wanting to go, or is it something you'd've done anyway? It's a cultural thing for me, so maybe it's different for people who see it as a religious thing. Sorry for going off at a tangent . As I said, I've just finished reading a book on it so the subject's right at the forefront of my tiny mind! I'm never sure what to make of Robin's frailty. We get all the build-up to it, but then in the end she's fine. I'm very glad she's fine and would have absolutely hated to see EBD make her seriously ill or even kill her off, but it sort of weakens the storyline ... it's as if EBD wanted to make her into Beth March but couldn't go through with it. I'm never entirely sure what to make of the bizarre storyline of the Guides "adopting" Biddy either, but Biddy's one of my favourite characters so I'm very glad they did .

Author:	emma t [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Joey's change of heart towards becoming Head Girl is quite realistic. The way Gisela talks to her and shows her what there is to come with growing up, is lovely. It would take someone who has been Head Girl to perswade Joey; who has been allowed to be as child like as possible for so long, even though Madge has often protested that she needs to grow up, though Joey rebelled more so, then from someone of her own generation, though it is often spoken about between her and her friends that Jo would like to remian a babe forever. However, Joey makes an excellant Head Girl. She has been a Prefect, but she is still finding her feet in this book, as she is new to being Head Girl. I think she does well for her first term as thus, and gains her respect and following from the other girls even more so then before. Yes, she grows in maturity. The illness of Robin is a serious matter, and one that is bound to make Joey stand up and take stock of life; that she knows she has to grow up at some point. Robin looks up to Joey and she cannot remain 'young' for all time for her adopted sister to do so. Also to realise that life will throw such things to her; is another reason that Joey probably finds hard to grasp, and does not wish to take reasponsibility. Having someone look up to you is a responsibilty, and I am surprised, thinking about it, that she never shyed away from the way Robin adores her. What does anyone else think to that? She protests about her friends becoming engaged; but is quite upset over the way Donal has treated one of her closest friends. I don't think this is being child like, in any extreme. Joey seems quite mature, and though it takes her a while to listen to Donal's side of what has happend, she has proably acted in a way someone of her time might have done (being no expert!). It's quite nice the way she gets them back together

Author:	MJKB [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
This is one of my least favourite's of the Tyrol years. Joey comes across very snappy and moody, which, when you think of it, she would be at her age. I really disliked her treatment of Stacy and her refusal to listen to Marie's very reasoned opinion that the Robin's condition could have little to do with Stacy. I read the pb and wonder how much of the story was abridged.

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Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7272

Author:	RroseSelavy [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
MJKB wrote: Joey comes across very snappy and moody, which, when you think of it, she would be at her age. I really disliked her treatment of Stacy and her refusal to listen to Marie's very reasoned opinion that the Robin's condition could have little to do with Stacy. Yes, I wonder if this is the one time when EBD actually shows one of her characters really acting like an adolescent? I can imagine Joey around this time bursting out with something along the lines of "stop bossing me about, you're not my mother" to Madge and then being sorry later. The Juliet/Donal thing really didn't interest me when I first read it aged 10 or so - though I do seem to recall thinking he was a bit weak-willed to take his sister's word so easily. Funnily enough, at that age the Biddy storyline seemed perfectly reasonable and logical

Author:	fraujackson [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Alison H wrote: I've just this morning finished reading a book about Oberammergau, so please would people indulge me if I waffle about the subject for a couple of minutes ? All being well, I'm going to see the Passion Play this summer (I wanted to go in 2000 but didn't realise how far in advance it was advisable to book and left it too late ). We only get the legal minimum number of days off work and have to take some of them on days chosen by our loathsome bosses (which is unfortunately legal), so choosing holidays is something I have to put a lot of time and care into, and also it's costing more than I'd normally spend on a holiday, so it's a really big deal for me. The point of that drivel (there is one, honestly) is that I don't think it's a decision I'd've made had EBD's description of it all not made such a big impression on me when I first read this book as a kid. I know that plenty of other CBB-ers are going, and or have been in the past ... if any of you've had the patience to read all this, did And Jo play a big part in your wanting to go, or is it something you'd've done anyway? It's a cultural thing for me, so maybe it's different for people who see it as a religious thing. Sorry for going off at a tangent . As I said, I've just finished reading a book on it so the subject's right at the forefront of my tiny mind! OT, but yes - the books have played a big part in my wanting to go. (And I'm finally going this year ) I probably will try to find the places mentioned in the book as well as seeing the play. When I first read the books I wasn't Catholic, so then it was a purely cultural/literary thing to want to see it; now it's a bit of both. Will come back later and talk more on-topic

Author:	sealpuppy [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Alison H wrote: I'm never entirely sure what to make of the bizarre storyline of the Guides "adopting" Biddy either, but Biddy's one of my favourite characters so I'm very glad they did . I'm pretty certain (without looking up dates) that this idea was pinched wholesale from EJO's A Camp Mystery, where the Guides adopted a 'small' girl (who was about 13) at a camp at Lake Annecy. They share the campsite with a group from the two English schools connected with a Sanitarium (another 'borrow') and the girl, Cecily, is taken home to England and farmed out with an old servant, till her real story is discovered. It seems clear that Biddy too, was to be farmed out and brought up in a different class, until possibly EBD forgot or got fed up with that idea, and just shoved her into the CS. Re Jo. I like the fact that she's irritable, annoying, sulky and probably a mass of rogue hormones. Much more believable than St Joey. But I suspect her actions in sorting out Donal and Juliet might arise from being a control freak!

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I think Joey is at her most interesting in this book, not because we see her growing up, because I don't really think we do - but because, as others have said, she comes across as an irritable, moody teenager. She actually behaves quite badly from time to time in this novel - her explicit blaming of Stacie for Robin's possible illness is awful, given that there's no basis for it whatsoever, and yet we see poor Stacie accepting the blame and being pathetically grateful when Joey decides to 'forgive' her (only after it emerges Robin is actually fine - not one of Joey's finer moments at all. Very human and flawed, and good writing from EBD, but definitely not the schoolgirl paragon she is afterwards remembered as.) If you add that to her mood swings and irritability, her virtual phobia about responsibility, her being only 16, as well as the fact that Jem seriously considers keeping her at the Annexe for her health, I wonder whether if she hadn't been Joey, Madge would have reconsidered making her head girl? Grizel, who was mentally older and more stable, nearly got demoted for one single escapade, and of course poor Anne Seymour loses out for even less! It just sometimes sounds to me as if the arguments for making Joey HG are more to do with the fact that she's so popular that it would be hard for a less dominant, but more stable, girl to be put over her...? I also wonder how she would have felt if Madge said during the holidays, 'OK, Joey, you've made your feelings plain, and you're acting like a baby - I'm going to make Frieda HG instead, because you've shown you don't deserve it'? I think Joey's childishness also comes across strongly in comparison to Juliet. When Joey tells Juliet that she loves her, and 'love brings understanding', Juliet is the one with the adult recognition that because you love someone doesn't always mean you understand them. And again, when they're in Oberammergau, and Joey is saying that playing Veronica must make it easier to be good, she's being a child, whereas Juliet is the adult who says that the girl playing her faces the same difficulties as anyone else in a difficult world. It makes you realise just how sheltered Joey's life has been. Incidentally, are we to think Jack already has his eye on Joey in this book, given that Marie seems to have some inkling in New House? I couldn't help noticing that when he runs into the Hillises, he explains 'I called in at the school to collect some of the kiddies for the week-end.’ Which reduces Joey to pretty juvenile status!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I'm fairly certain that I've said before - and this is a slight tangent! - but I think that Joey being remembered as near perfect afterwards is actually quite realistic, given her close involvement with the school. Just wanted to say that! I like this book, and it's one of the frequent re-reads (though I still can't remember it too well. Too much studying!) It seems to be one of the occasions that the school is prepared to put a girl before the rest of the school if they think it will work out in the end - like Grizel or Margot. Deep down, I think that Joey would have been very upset to be pushed from the post of HG, and I can't really think of anyone who could have taken her place, except perhaps Marie, but then who would be Games? I don't think that Frieda has the power to control that Joey has (for want of a better way to put it, you know what I mean!) and I don't think that Simone would want to be put above her beloved Joey! Just to finish as I started, on a tangent, I'd love to go and see the Passion Play but don't think it will be for many years to come yet!

Author:	Llywela [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
As others have said, this is a really interesting time in Joey's life, because she is beginning to grow up, but she isn't there yet. She's in a real transitional phase where she is capable of moments of real maturity but also still capable of tremendous childishness. A fairly typical 16-year-old, in fact! She really does ring true as a teenager, on the cusp of adulthood but not not quite there yet, and that feeds into just about everything she does. It's why she can be so unhappy about her friends growing up and getting married and then turn around and attempt to matchmake for Juliet - an apparent contradiction, sure, but she's in a very contradictory state of mind, and it is to her credit that her desire to see Juliet happy outweighs her selfish desire to keep all her friends close rather than see them married. Of course, whether or not Juliet should marry Donal after the way he treated her is another matter entirely, but EBD doesn't go there. It's just a shame that the adult Joey doesn't remain as thoroughly human and well drawn as she is here. The extreme babying of the Robin is starting to grate by this time. Her illness (out of nowhere as it is, in many respects) does explain it, but it would be so nice if EBD allowed her to grow up even a little and act her age. The teenage Robin we meet in later books is a delightful person, but she becomes that person very suddenly, after remaining extremely babyish for a remarkably long time.

Author:	JB [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I feel sorry for Joey at the start of this book. On the one hand, Madge is telling her that she needs to grow up but she’s also saying, in a way which would annoy any adolescent: Quote: ‘I’m not a baby now,’ said Jo. Madge smiled. ‘No; that is true, Joey. But when it comes to health, I’m afraid you must still be content to be treated as a child. You are so careless, Jo; and while you are growing at such a rate, it’s so necessary for you not to strain yourself in any way.’ I am, by the way, looking simply at the fact of Madge of saying this. I’m ignoring the fact that she says this after 16 year old Joey has carried 11 year old Robin up the garden path, as I think EBD had no idea how much children weighed and later in the book she has Jack Maynard carrying Irma von Rothenfels part of the way to the Sonnalpe.

Author:	Sunglass [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I always think that Robin's 'illness' in this book is EBD pulling her punches a bit. Robin's always been fragile, then she's possibly slightly more so, then a specialist says she's fine, actually, period. It looks like the beginning of a plotline where the Robin will either tragically waste away like Beth in Little Women, or be hauled back from the brink of death in a wonderfully dramatic tearjerker scene, but then EBD just dismisses it as a false alarm. I think what strikes me in the Juliet and Donal relationship is EBD trying to be very nice-minded and non-specific about how far the relationship had actually gone - Joey talks in a very schoolgirlish way about him 'letting a girl be your pal and and turning against her' and Donal himself doesn't think of himself as having behaved badly to a former girlfriend, or potential fiancee, but 'the girl who had been his sister’s friend.' But Joey's well-meaning naivete - I cannot honestly imagine that poor, hurt Juliet would have wanted Joey to spend an entire hour telling the man who ditched her all the horribly, hurtful details of her parents abandonment of her! - may well be a sign that she simply doesn't realise till too late that 'fixing things' between J and D will actually jump straight to an engagement ring. The way she approaches Donal is very much the way she'd have tried to sort out a quarrel between two CS girls who used to be friends until someone told one a nasty story about the other - she might genuinely think she's just repairing a platonic friendship and making Juliet happier until Donal enlightens her...? She seems very young in this scene, and the way she talks about him being a 'cad' and a 'bounder' sounds like the kind of thing she would have read in a 19thc novel! I have to say the end of that scene always cracks me up - Joey and he spend an hour together under the Red Peril and at the end of the hour Quote: the last remnants of the school-boy who had been influenced by a sister fell away from him, and he sat up a man. It sounds slightly as though Joey seduced him with her feminine wiles! In which case maybe she does 'grow up' in the novel... I agree he still comes out of it badly - for all that he's now a 'man' who's no longer influenced by his sister, but he's influenced instead by a naive, indiscreet, terribly well-meaning 16 year old who's made him feel sorry for the woman he dumped... Would any woman want a man to propose to her because he felt sorry for her, and ashamed of the way he'd treated her?

Author:	ammonite [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Quote: The Juliet/Donal thing really didn't interest me when I first read it aged 10 or so - though I do seem to recall thinking he was a bit weak-willed to take his sister's word so easily. Funnily enough, at that age the Biddy storyline seemed perfectly reasonable and logical It was the same with me. The storyline just seemed incidental to the plot, whereas the middles adoption of Biddy seemed a 'normal' middles actitivity! I do wonder who EBD had lined up to run the annex when Juliet got married if WW2 hadn't got in the way as I can't imagine Grizel would have been promoted she wasn't stable enough. Do you think Joey could have got the job??? Unlikely but otherwise another teacher could have been brought in as the Annex was set to run until Robin finished school at any rate. Robins illness could have been the result of the hothouse atmosphere of the Sonnalpe. I imagine all who lived up there were fairly closely watched for signs of TB and that Robin being probably not as robust and with a family history of the disease was watched more, so that any cough or just tiredness would cause a panic and be multiplied out of hand. After all there could be some feelings of guilt within the adults that bringing Robin to live on the Sonnalpe has caused this and this guilt is overridden in anxiety which is passed to Joey. I think Joey was always destined for Head Girl as no-one else took the lead like she did. She wasn't portrayed as a head girl without flaws as I think Gisela was portrayed as more perfect but Joey did well. She resisted growing up as she knew it meant change and she didn't like this but when responsibility is forced on her she can take it and act with it.

Author:	Emma A [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I know this book rather better than some of the early titles, since I've read it more frequently - but only in the Armada version. Was this badly cut? I rather enjoy it, but would not have enjoyed being a pupil at the school in this, Joey's first term as head girl: I think she does grow up, but over the next couple of books, not in this one. She's far too moody and unable to control her feelings - she does no work at all during the week when Robin's being tested for TB, due to worry, and then flies completely "in alt" (to use a phrase of Georgette Heyer's) when she receives the good news. She snubs some of her fellow prefects (doesn't she take the huff at Anne who legitimately asks for Joey to stop talking while she's trying to work?) and is completely horrible to Stacie - and after the good start at the beginning of term, when she persuades the others to take her on as editor (though she does sell it by saying that she can't do any harm, because the mistress in charge will have final say, anyway!). I did find the Oberammergau play a very moving piece of description, and can quite understand why Joey would have reacted so intensely to it (also, it would have been a long day in the hot sun, and I doubt whether she'd have drunk much water during it). I think this intense feeling which EBD portrays is why the previous piece of mischief by the Middles grates so much - though at least Anne isn't blamed for failing to supervise them. It is realistic portrayal of adolescent moodiness, but I wonder what might have happened if Madge had decided that she really couldn't make Joey HG, and had chosen Frieda (or Anne, at least for that term) instead... I remember reading somewhere, with respect to Juliet's storyline, that Juliet sounded far more upset to have lost Kay's friendship than Donal's. Perhaps she feels that she can't say much to Joey about Donal, or her feelings for him, and so uses her affection for Kay as a substitute, as to why she feels so distraught. Joey's at her best here, in her kindness, and wishing to help - though it would have been very interesting so see what might have happened if she hadn't succeeded convincing Donal that Juliet was worth his time and love! And whether, if Juliet absolutely forbade Joey to tell Donal or Kay about the grotty time her parents had given her (as Sunglass pointed out), Joey would have been able to effect a resolution.

Author:	fraujackson [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Just to finish as I started, on a tangent, I'd love to go and see the Passion Play but don't think it will be for many years to come yet! Try here http://www.passionsspiele2010.de/index.php?id=161 It's in German, but the booking form (buchungsformular) is fairly straightforward. I booked it this way. The youth hostel's going to be basic, but they will do all your meals for you, and it's far the cheapest for 2 days for the experience !

Author:	Lesley [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I think this is a very good book for showing Joey in the early stages of growing up - we tend to forget just how young she was when she first became Head Girl. It's good to see her having perfectly normal concerns and worries about how her 'fun' will be over, it's even good to see her totally over-reacting to the thought of Robin being unwell and her joy when it's decided that Robin does not have TB. Even her reaction to and blame of Stacie is natural - nasty, but natural. It's a great pity that, later in the series, all of this is air-brushed out of existence. Instead all New Girls being told that Joey was the 'best Head Girl we've ever had' - no she wasn't. She did learn to be a decent HG but she also displayed signs of immaturity, selfishness and cruelty. It would be a far better thing if Joey was able to honestly say to a newly appointed HG - "You'll make mistakes, we all do, I made errors and did things the wrong way. But, eventually, like me you'll be the best that you can."

Author:	cal562301 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I actually went to see the Oberammergau Passion Play in 1980 and found it a profoundly moving experience. I was a lot closer to my A level German then, which probably helped, but it is an amazing experience, even if you can't understand the text of the play. There are good translations and explanations available in the village. I didn't really get to see any of the cast in mufti, as we stayed mostly in a place called St Anton and only stayed in Oberammergau itself for a couple of nights before and after the play. I rather like Joey in this book. As others have said, she seems much more 'normal' than she is portrayed elsewhere, particularly later in the series. But can you imagine what would happen if all the CS girls obeyed their hormones rather than the rule of the school and being ladies? Chaos would ensue. Off topic, but I wonder how much of the Middles' naughtiness was down to puberty? They were about that age. I know girls developed later years ago, but it's now generally recognised that hormones start raging before the physical signs appear. Of course, EBD could not possibly have put anything the Middles did down to that.

Author:	andi [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
This is one of my favourite books - as a child I remember being totally swept up in the drama of Robin's possible illness and the scene in the summerhouse (?) where Joey breaks down after Miss Annersley tells her that Robin will be all right. The one thing that does jar though, is the middles' escapade at Oberammergau. Aren't they about 13 or 14 at this stage? Surely a bit old for painting their faces and pretending to be Pocahontas or whoever.

Author:	fraujackson [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
cal562301 wrote: Off topic, but I wonder how much of the Middles' naughtiness was down to puberty? They were about that age. I know girls developed later years ago, but it's now generally recognised that hormones start raging before the physical signs appear. Of course, EBD could not possibly have put anything the Middles did down to that. IIRC there's something in A World of Girls about this. Auchmuty uses the 'neither flesh, fowl, nor good red herring' quote (I can't remember which prefect, when said it about the Middles) to back up her theory that EBD's subtext was that it was puberty that was to blame for the middles' naughtiness. Or not wanting to 'grow up', of course...whatever that means

Author:	Nightwing [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
cal562301 wrote: But can you imagine what would happen if all the CS girls obeyed their hormones rather than the rule of the school and being ladies? Presumably it would be a very normal girls' school Joey's resistance to growing up is interesting - I think that most of all it's change that she's resisting. I mean, obviously growing up means change, but I think what we see over and over is that Joey isn't someone who accepts change easily. Dick's getting married upsets her, but by the time he has kids she's happy with the idea; she wants Madge and Jem to get together, but she's also deeply upset as Madge's departure from the school gets closer. The scene with Gisela shows this, I think - Joey doesn't show any resentment over the fact that Gisela is now happily married with a daughter, even though she resisted the idea of her engagement at the time (unless I'm misremembering?) And being Head Girl means the biggest kind of change - changing who she actually is. As a sub-prefect she could get away with being childish and playing practical jokes, still, but being Head Girl means being a Grown Up and Responsible and an Example. To someone that hates change that must be absolutely terrifying.

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
She does make some remarks about how only a few years ago Gisela was having fun at school and now she's darning Gottfried's socks and looking after a baby. I find Gisela and Gottfried's attitude really annoying, actually: after Jo has left, they talk about how it's a good idea for Jo to be HG as she needs to accept that she has to grow up, which is fair enough, but then they have this really irritating Smug Married conversation about how "all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too". It's very nice that they're happy with their life, but the way they assume that everyone else must want that lifestyle too and that if they say they don't it's just because they're immature is really irritating. Maybe they'd have felt differently had Jo had an alternative plan, such as wanting a career in teaching or nursing, but it's annoying even so!

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Alison H wrote: I find Gisela and Gottfried's attitude really annoying, actually: after Jo has left, they talk about how it's a good idea for Jo to be HG as she needs to accept that she has to grow up, which is fair enough, but then they have this really irritating Smug Married conversation about how "all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too". Ooh, seconded! I have always found this the classic Smug Married moment in the entire CS. Particularly as Joey has just said quite definitely that she isn't interested in marrying and having 'all this'. I accept that taking on the HG post is a sort of symbol of accepting growing up, but I find Gisela and Gottfried's assumption that 'growing up' only means marriage and babies a bit insulting, to Joey and women in general. Even in the early days of the CS there are other girls who don't plan to marry, and for whom 'growing up' means further study and a job (rather than Joey's vaguer plans) - and surely it's not that much of a stretch to see being HG as a first job, rather than some kind of precursor of marriage? Gisela and Bette may have 'graduated' from being HG to marital sock-darning, but Mary and Grizel certainly don't! Also, am I the only one who finds EBD's coyness about marriage and procreation here somewhere between funny and maddening? She has this weird habit of being unspecific about what she considers Big Things - so here she has Gottfried and Gisela talking about 'All this must come to her', and you get the same indirect way of talking about marriage and babies all over the early books, when the Quartette are discussing their futures. But it seems like an unfortunate coincidence that she's unspecific in a rather similar way about the Robin's illness. When Madge first hints at it to Joey: 'A cry from Jo interrupted her. '‘Madge! Not that for the Robin!’' and when Joey in turn tells Marie, we get ‘Oh, Joey! Not that – not that for the Robin!’ It just struck me as funny that while it's understandable someone doesn't want to spell out the Robin's risk of TB - my own mother won't use the word cancer - that the same circumlocution seems to operate around marriage...

Author:	shesings [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Alison H wrote: She does make some remarks about how only a few years ago Gisela was having fun at school and now she's darning Gottfried's socks and looking after a baby. I find Gisela and Gottfried's attitude really annoying, actually: after Jo has left, they talk about how it's a good idea for Jo to be HG as she needs to accept that she has to grow up, which is fair enough, but then they have this really irritating Smug Married conversation about how "all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too". It's very nice that they're happy with their life, but the way they assume that everyone else must want that lifestyle too and that if they say they don't it's just because they're immature is really irritating. Maybe they'd have felt differently had Jo had an alternative plan, such as wanting a career in teaching or nursing, but it's annoying even so! Do you know I've always read that as Gottfried and Gisela referring to baby Natalie one day having to face the challenges of growing up? It's the way that parents often philosophise (or this parent does anyway!) about their offspring. I find myself wondering how my grandson, aged 10 months, will fare in his world.

Author:	rugbyliz [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
"all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too". I had also always read that bit as referring to Natalie. And in that context I think it is a perfectly normal thing to say. Well, I think similar things about my 2 year old.

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
rugbyliz wrote: "all this" (marriage, a home, babies) "must come to her too". I had also always read that bit as referring to Natalie. And in that context I think it is a perfectly normal thing to say. Well, I think similar things about my 2 year old. I see what you mean, though I always read it as being about Joey, I think because the next statement is 'I wonder what Jo will give the School this year.' And I suppose because Gottfried and Gisela have just been wetting themselves laughing at Joey for being nutty enough to start matchmaking between David and Natalie, but if they do mean Natalie when they say 'All this [marriage etc] must come to her too', then aren't they themselves doing much the same thing, by speculating about the marital future of their newborn? But you're probably right, EBD means it to be about Natalie! I think I get a bit irritated by that scene because I have always resisted marrying my splendid partner, and I sympathise with Joey's lack of interest in the whole shebang. Also, for some reason, Gottfried's 'mane of yellow hair' cracks me up - it sounds so long and kind of gladiator-ish, when I would have thought EBD's doctors were short-back-and-sides men, one and all...?

Author:	rugbyliz [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
In fact in the book, as Gisela says that, she has just picked up Natalie and is cuddling her. Maybe parents do wonder about who their children will marry etc. I know my parents are still trying to matchmake the two siblings who are not married.(With no luck I might add) And I do look at my daughter and wonder who she might marry, if she will have children, what career she will have etc...I just hope I don't go on about it to her when she is bigger!

Author:	ammonite [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Also Gisela and Gottfried are looking at this from an EBD view of Austrian perceptive, so her Austrian girls are all quite content to grow up, marry young and have families. Therefore Jo's view that she doesn't want all that is quite alien to her even after being at an 'English School' (Gisela only for a year), there is a lot of home training to overcome to not pre-suppose that to be the destiny. Therefore presumably they can just about take it if a girl has a vocation for a career - probably as an extended from becoming a nun as a life path but Joey's not knowing what she will do is puzzling.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I see it as perfectly normal; in a country where it was more than accepted, it was expected, that someone of Joey's class would leave school to get married and have babies, it would have been understandable anyway. But she's also coming up to the Sonnalpe, and Dr Jack, and I have a sneaking suspicion that just about everyone must have known of his intentions by then, especially people so close to him - so why shouldn't they assume that once Joey's grown up she'll be coming home to be married to him?

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
This is, I think, one of my favourite books in the entire series; I have always loved it. Joey is so very realistic here! I went to the Passion Play in 1970; I don't think the book influenced me in wanting to go there (but it did influence how I wrote up the trip afterwards!). Although, having said that, I know I badly wanted to go and my parents said they had already financed one school trip for me, and I had to earn the money for it myself, which I duly did (and confused the heck out of the Bursar when I insisted on the bills being sent to me, not to my parents!). But I was 17 at the time, and had just left school by the time the trip came off, so I imagine I was at the stage when I didn't read school stories (started again a couple of years later!). We didn't, as far as I know, see any of the cast in the streets, but then, school parties only got one night in Oberammagau proper - you arrived mid-afternoon, had a bit of time to walk around and buy souvenirs and then next day was the Play, and as soon as it was over it was off to Munich station with a packed supper for the overnight train home (or, presumably, on to another part of Germany if the play was at the beginning of your holiday, not the end). Edited to add - Yikes; it occurs to me that if the Passion Play that Joey & co went to was in 1934, which it must have been, the one I went to in 1970 was closer in time to it (only 36 years) than it is to this year's (40 years). Now I really DO feel old!

Author:	cal562301 [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
Mrs Redboots wrote: Edited to add - Yikes; it occurs to me that if the Passion Play that Joey & co went to was in 1934, which it must have been, the one I went to in 1970 was closer in time to it (only 36 years) than it is to this year's (40 years). Now I really DO feel old! Just looked up the Passion Play on Wikipedia. The first ever performance was in 1634, in thanks for deliverance from the plague in 1633. So if CS went in 1934, it would have been the 300th anniversary. Wikipedia is unclear about when performances started to be in the year that ended in a zero, but says special performances were staged in 1934 to mark the tri-centenary as well as the performances in 1930. Not surprisingly, the play was not staged in 1940 because of the war.

Author:	ammonite [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
According to the Obergammergau website the date was changed in 1680, to every 10 years. The 1934 performance was attended by Hitler, shortly before the elections and also the posters were printed by order of the Reich with 'Germany Calls You' on them. Apparently 440,000 people attended the performances then as ticket prices were specially reduced. The history is fascinating. Its amazing how many times it has been interrupted by wars etc. and yet it has still carried on even if the performances sometines were delayed by years.

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
According to my aforementioned guidebook , it was held every ten years until 1674, and then they decided to move it to a "round" date so the next performance was held in 1680. There were special performances in 1934 to mark the 300th anniversary (and in 1984 to mark the 350th anniversary, which would make a lovely CS reunion drabble if anyone fancies writing one ), so the one in And Jo must, as Mrs Redboots said, have been the 1934 one.

Author:	lizarfau [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Books: Growing Up - The Chalet School and Jo
I always thought they attended the 1930 Passion Play, because And Jo was published in 1931 (according to the list in GGB books). So, presumably, the Passion Play would have taken place at the time EBD was writing the book.