The CBB :: View topic - Girls: The Big Three

you have to have something more than she has....Miss Derwent is a poppet, but you need something more than that in a a Head

If any girl prefers to stand apart from us, she may do so. I am the only person besides Joey Maynard who knows the names of the girls, and whether any have elected to pass us by. [..] For I think that Joey is in herself a kind of embodiment of what we like to think the school stands for...”

What I wanted to say in a nutshell was that the three of them are very different but that EBD seemed to want to rewrite Joey's history to make her seem more like Mary-Lou and to make Len sound like something she wasn't so that she'd seem like Mary-Lou and the revised version of Joey as well! And that Mary-Lou is the strongest character of the three but Joey has the more interesting personality, and Len is a weaker character than either of them.

I misunderstood the topic title and wondered for a minute whether it was going to be about Sophie Hamel, Hilda Jukes and Nancy Wilmot!

and during the escape to Switzerland she is more than a hindrance than a help.

Joey was charming and gregarious a lot of fun, so she rose to the top of the social order and had people look up to her, but she didn't really have the personality to handle the practical aspects of leadership. Her tactlessness, disorganization, emotional volatility and tendency to collapse under stress all played against her there.

Len has the personality for the practical parts. She's conscientious, responsible, reliable, organized, used to looking after other people, does her best to think of others and be fair. But she doesn't have the force of personality to be a natural leader - she's too inclined to conform, too caught up in being the good daughter. She never comes across as having the spark that makes people want to follow her. I see Len as perfect second prefect material - the one who takes care of details behind the scenes. Margot, for all her bad behaviour and temper, has that spark.

Were there other, better candidates that EBD should have lead with?

Joey had to be head girl, no matter how unlikely a candidate she was

Quote:

Joey had to be head girl, no matter how unlikely a candidate she was

This suddenly put a whole new spin on Madge's and Mlle's decision about making Jo head-girl for me! If Jo hadn't been the heroine of the stories, the book could easily have started with two heads despairing that they had a year without decent head-girl material, but *had* to pick someone, and that someone had to be Joey simply because she would lead anyway.

Then there are girls whom we seem to know little about as personalities -- Elinor Pennell or Jesanne Gellibrand, for instance. It's hard to understand why EBD made people like this head girl.

I never really liked Mary-Lou, she always seemed obnoxious and interfering. Also, the "leading the other Middle's by the nose" always sort of read as bullying to me. There was always a feeling that you went along with what Mary-Lou said or had a really hard time.

I've thought for a while that Ted Grantley might have made a good HG...

Seriously, whilst I'm sure no-one would mind Margot saving a seat for Emerence or Len saving seats for Ros and Ted, I'd find it very annoying walking into a classroom or coach which was empty apart from one person and being told that my friends and I couldn't sit in any of the best half a dozen or more seats! In the early Swiss books, the Gang are all in the same form. We know that the CS doesn't like to have more than 25 girls in one form, and 9 or 10 people (I forget how many of them there were in all) out of 25 is a lot: other people must have felt intimidated sometimes.

Apart from Kathie Ferris, whose dislike of the bumptious Mary Lou is regarded as faulty judgement on her part, there is only one other teacher who pulls her up for bossiness -can't for the life of me think who it is.

"And that leaves Gwen and me - and Francie," Beth Lane said. "Who's she going with?"
"You two if you like," said Mary-Lou the ready. "Or she can tag on with Verity and me. Just as you say."
"I'll come with you, Beth, if I may," Francie said quickly. "If I'm with Mary-Lou she'll boss me to death!" she added ungratefully.
Miss Dene had stood back while these amenities were proceeding. Now she decided that she had better take a hand. She took a step forward.
"Now that's enough," she said firmly. "Francie, that is not the way to reply to an offer that was meant kindly, I don't doubt. As for you, Mary-Lou, be careful or you'll be turning into one of those domineering women that no one likes. Francie, if Beth and Gwen will have you, you may go with them."
Mary-Lou had subsided and joined Verity-Anne, her face as red as a peony. Francie's was no better. Between being told to take care to avoid being too bossy and ticked off for bad manners, she rather thought she would prefer the former. Miss Dene chuckled inwardly...

Lesley and Hilary had “bagged” a couple near the platform by the simple means of each lying full-length on hers until the rest joined up. The Gang, augmented by Jessica and Clare, who had lately taken the new girl under her wing, fled to take their places, for Hilda Jukes and Jill Ormsby from VA were beginning to argue that they wanted those seats for their crowd.

Hilary sat up with a look of relief as Mary-Lou arrived. “For any sake, Mary-Lou, make these two realise that these seats are bagged!” she said.
Mary-Lou grinned at the pair. “Sorry; but it’s so,” she said as she pushed Hilary’s feet on to the floor and sat down. “Come on, Verity! Room for a little one!”
Hilda and Jill grimaced and retired to find seats further down the room. They knew their Mary-Lou! In any case, the remaining thirteen had been ready to back her up.

Or - an amusing thought occurs - what would have happened if EBD had suffered from a serious time wrinkle, and the Big Three were all the same age and at the CS together at the same time? (Obvious, this would mean finessing the point that one of them is the daughter of another, but you get my drift.) Would schoolgirl Joey beat Mary-Lou into second place, for instance, or vice versa? Would Len retire to the Frieda Mensch-type dependable best friend role that in some ways she seems designed for? Would schoolgirl Joey even like schoolgirl Len?

Sunglass wrote:

That is such a fantastic idea, Sunglass! I suspect that Len would have been quite happy in a second prefect or Staff pree kind of role, for example. It could be quite a showdown for leadership of the school between Joey and Mary-Lou, but I guess Joey would win the popular vote. Mary-Lou has personality and a caring instinct, and so would have been the Staff's choice as Head Girl at the time, but Joey would have been unconsciously "most popular" and so might have created a number of clashes between her supporters and Mary-Lou's. :lol:

Mary-Lou had subsided and joined Verity-Anne, her face as red as a peony. Francie's was no better. Between being told to take care to avoid being too bossy and ticked off for bad manners, she rather thought she would prefer the former.

Or - an amusing thought occurs - what would have happened if EBD had suffered from a serious time wrinkle, and the Big Three were all the same age and at the CS together at the same time?

I was wondering how Joey the head girl would have coped with Mary-Lou head of the Middles.

Mary-Lou was prettty bumptions by them and Joey wasn't either patient or tactful.

I don't see it fitting the ethos of the early Chalet School under Madge and Mademoiselle... I think there's an inherent flaw in any system which allows such gangs to flourish.

kind of like the Chalet School meets the Schleswig-Holstein question

ETA: Did the word 'Gang' have such negative connotations in the 50's? That doesn't help with their image, for the modern reader anyway!

There's a brilliant line in one of the later books - I'm never sure if EBD means it to be funny or not - in which we're informed that one character (is it Val Gardiner?) is in a strange and ambiguous position because she's a member of Jack's Gang but her best friend isn't. Kind of like the Chalet School meets the Schleswig-Holstein question :lol:

. I think that by that point the gang mentality really had gone too far ... it almost sounded as if they had membership rituals and Val (?) had gone through an initiation ceremony but her bezzie mate hadn't!

Along the same lines, why, whenever she's mentioned, are we always specifically told that Clare Kennedy is not one of the Gang,

Joey I didn't like as HG....but liked her personality throughout the series. i

Along the same lines, why, whenever she's mentioned, are we always specifically told that Clare Kennedy is not one of the Gang, although she seems to spend as much time with them as they do with each other, if that makes sense. It's almost like EBD is trying to make some point, but I don't know what it is. What about her relationship with Mary Lou and the others marks her out as separate? Unless there really is a membership list and initiation rite in which she didn't make the grade...?

I think EBD is at her best describing friendship groups when it comes to ones like Tom, Bride and their friends. It's a loose group, with various pairs of close friends in it, with a wide variety of girls, ranging from tomboy, to games mad, to academic, to musical, to lazy socialites.

Author:	Róisín [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:03 am ]
Post subject:	Girls: The Big Three
The Big Three: Joey, Mary-Lou and Len – these three are easily the most important girls in the Chalet world - would you agree?. How do they hold up as characters, and how do each do as leaders/head girls? How do they compare with each other? Were there other, better candidates that EBD should have lead with? Please join in the discussion below

Author:	Tor [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
In some ways, I fell that Margot has almost as much claim to the position of one of the 'big three' as Len does. Certainly, whilst Len is clearly supposed to be inheriting the mantle of Mary-Lou, many of the later stories are actually Margot's. And if EBD hadn't- as I think CatC put it in the Two Sams thread - almost descended into self parody in the later books in reeling off the triplets personalities, and thus trapping herself into undoing all the good work of a previous book, there might even have been a fully-realised self-development arc for Margots maturation, which there is no hint of in Len. So, in the later books, I fell that whilst EBd plumped on Len as the 'heroine', she actually found Margot continually wriggling her way to the forefront and getting right in the way!

Author:	JayB [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I like all three of them as younger girls, but I think EBD is less successful at portraying them as Seniors and leaders. Jo is still interesting at 16/17, and she is quite capable of maintaining discipline, but as prefect and HG she still seems to look at problems from the perspective of how they affect her, rather than how they affect the school. Matron Besly for example - Jo tends to undermine her, rather than help to support the authority of a new and inexperienced member of staff. Mary Lou I like quite a lot in the English books, when she's not presented as perfect and is quite often squashed by staff or older girls. But soon after the arrival in Switzerland she becomes almost unbearably bumptious, and far from being pulled up for it, she's encouraged, with the appointment as Head of the Middles, talk of her being a future HG, and even new members of staff having to acknowledge her wonderfulness. That said, I do think ML is the most effective HG of the three, in that she identifies problems and takes definite steps to solve them. Len, again, I quite like in the sequence of books introducing Ros, Ted, Ricki, although her character is somewhat bland - there's nothing that makes her stand out from the crowd especially. I think she's the least effective of the HGs, she lacks Jo's charisma and ML's interfering nature. She seems to react to events around her, rather than taking the initiative. EBD tells us rather than shows us what a good leader she is. It's not that EBD couldn't write older girls - she did so very successfully with Bride & Co, for example. One of the problems with these three I think was that EBD intended each of them to be HG from the time she entered the school, so EBD couldn't allow any other character to overshadow them. With other groups of girls, the HGs have emerged more naturally as the girls have gone up through the school. Oops - seem to have written an essay there!

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I think that the three heroines are very different, and it annoys me no end in the Swiss books when EBD keeps trying to make out that Schoolgirl Joey was just like an earlier version of Mary-Lou when in fact she wasn't. Joey as a schoolgirl is seen as the lynchpin of the school, partly because she is the only one of the early pupils fluent in all three languages (EBD makes this point) and partly because of her personality. However, I don't think that she's a natural leader, especially in times of crisis, in the same way that Mary-Lou is, or as Gisela and some of the other head girls are: we see her losing her rag with Margia in prep, and during the escape to Switzerland she is more than a hindrance than a help. That's not a criticism: I just mean that she has different strengths and weaknesses to Mary-Lou and I don't know why EBD in the Swiss books keeps going on about how Joey's always been a "butter-in" and Mary-Lou is like a younger version of her. Mary-Lou is far stronger as a head girl and a leader, and it's interesting seeing how she matures in the way she deals with things from arguing with Phil Craven to being "the complete Head Girl" with Margot. She leads a big gang of girls - and I never feel that Frieda, Marie, Simone, Ros and Ted are dominated by a group leader in the same was that Hilary, Lesley and co are - but, unlike Joey, is not so friendly with people of other ages - although that's partly just because the school is larger in her day than in Joey's. Her weakness is that she's sometimes rather too bossy and officious - although the mistresses and Joey contribute to this by piling responsibility to her, e.g. expecting her to look after Naomi when Barbara Chester would have been a more obvious choice. She certainly casts a long shadow: the school never seems to be the same after she's left. Len I find insipid compared with the other two. I remember once being dragged to a Latin A-level talk on how Virgil had tried to make Aeneas into an epic hero like Hector or Achilles or Odysseus and failed, and I think the same thing happened with Len! Maybe the trouble is that she was cast as the heroine-to-be from too early on and has so much responsibility piled on to her that it dampens her personality. It affects other people too: Josette, Maeve and Ros get no "action" as Head Girls because EBD just seems to be waiting until Len's ready to take over. Plus we're constantly being told - e.g. when Len tries to help Odette, which only lasts about five minutes anyway - how like Joey she is, just as we keep being told how like Joey Mary-Lou is! I feel sorry for her sometimes, especially when she ends up engaged to Reg before she's even left school, but I don't feel that she's a strong enough character to be a heroine. This is a bit OT, but just looking on to what might have happened once Len left, Jack Lambert was clearly in line to be the next heroine but I think that it would have been better to focus on Ailie & co. During the British books things are fine without there being one single dominant character, and I think that it would have worked better to've tried that again with Ailie, Janice, Judy and their friends than to focus on Jack and her gang of sheep. Sorry, that was a long essay! I am v bored at work . What I wanted to say in a nutshell was that the three of them are very different but that EBD seemed to want to rewrite Joey's history to make her seem more like Mary-Lou and to make Len sound like something she wasn't so that she'd seem like Mary-Lou and the revised version of Joey as well! And that Mary-Lou is the strongest character of the three but Joey has the more interesting personality, and Len is a weaker character than either of them.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
It's funny and the girls may have been held up for being the strongest leaders of the school, yet I don't think they are as popular as Head Girls. I think Mary Lou was excellent in the role and did do her honest best to help others, regardless of all her faults. Joey was plain straight out obnoxious in The CS and Jo and the Chalet Girls at Camp and I didn't like her in the slightest during both those books. At least with Mary Lou, she tried to help others, Joey didn't. Len was and is always a weak third, in part I think because EBD stopped writing so well and as someone said, EBD had it in her head Len was Head Girl regardless and I don't think Len was a strong enough charcter for that. To quote herself when the triplets are discussing Miss Derwent as a possible Head Quote: you have to have something more than she has....Miss Derwent is a poppet, but you need something more than that in a a Head I think it that fits Len as Head Girl to a tea

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Girls: The Big Three http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5898

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I misunderstood the topic title and wondered for a minute whether it was going to be about Sophie Hamel, Hilda Jukes and Nancy Wilmot! For me the biggest difference between schoolgirl Joey and the other two is that schoolgirl Joey has no one to live up to/inherit the mantle of etc - there's no agenda. Whether or not you find her as charming as EBD intermittently tells us she is as a schoolgirl, she does develop more or less naturally. Yes, she's the single most popular and influential girl in the school, but as someone said up the thread, it's more or less a natural situation, with her being fluent in the three school languages, naturally gregarious and the sister of the Head of a small, brand-new school, so her prominence makes a kind of sense. For me, the problems with Joey begin later, when she starts being retrospectively reinvented as a paragon of all that is CS - she kind of gets rehistoricised because of Mary-Lou and Len, both of whom become Schoolgirl Paragons coming up behind her, and need her to have been something she wasn't so they can appear to emulate her. The problem with them is they are required to become icons of CS perfection while they are still at school, in a way that Joey herself never was. EBD does a funny kind of revisionist thing where later Joey becomes somewhat obnoxious in her position as Official School Legend, and that has an impact on her two 'heiresses', both of whom risk becoming what EBD herself calls 'plaster saints' (when Matey is criticising Joey's aborted school story). One thing shocked me somewhat when I was reading Lavender recently - and that was just how soon after she leaves school Joey has become an unassailable school legend. This is Bill explaining about new girls signing the CS Peace League: Quote: If any girl prefers to stand apart from us, she may do so. I am the only person besides Joey Maynard who knows the names of the girls, and whether any have elected to pass us by. [..] For I think that Joey is in herself a kind of embodiment of what we like to think the school stands for...” I mean, I can understand, to some extent, how Joey, by the Swiss books, has become a kind of school mascot, just by virtue of always being next door - you can see how legends gather momentum by themselves, as the reality of how ordinary someone actually was fades in the memory. But by Lavender, she's only been gone from the school a very few years, and I certainly found myself wondering what she had really done to deserve being talked about as an 'embodiment of what the school stands for'? Arguably the enormously helpful and responsible (if less interesting) Mary-Lou and Len come to deserve that title later, but it seems like a pretty eccentric way to describe Joey...?

Author:	Cat C [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Alison H wrote: What I wanted to say in a nutshell was that the three of them are very different but that EBD seemed to want to rewrite Joey's history to make her seem more like Mary-Lou and to make Len sound like something she wasn't so that she'd seem like Mary-Lou and the revised version of Joey as well! And that Mary-Lou is the strongest character of the three but Joey has the more interesting personality, and Len is a weaker character than either of them. I think that's about right. Len was never a very alive character for me - even in Rescue, and allowing for EBD's iffy abilities to write about pre-school children as characters, I find Margot far more 'real'. The series in Switzerland would have been far more interesting if Joey had produced the triplets as singletons, (and then the boys as triplets, or whatever) even if fairly closely spaced, and ideally in a different order!

Author:	JayB [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Speaking of the embodiment of all the School stands for, I think it's interesting that Len didn't win the Josephine M Bettany/Margot Venables Prize. I know it wasn't awarded every year, and it might have been awkward for the School authorities to have made a point of awarding it in the year that Jo's own daughter was HG and might have been expected to win it. But if Len was that wonderful as a leader, shouldn't someone on the Staff or among the senior girls at least have thought of it? Summer Term, when the School was celebrating its Jubilee, and Len was HG, was a time when the prize should have been awarded, since such a point was made about awarding it in the Coming of Age year. (I'm reminded of Nicola Marlow reflecting on the fact that Karen didn't get the prize that was traditionally awarded to the HG at Kingscote, and taking that as additional confirmation that Karen wasn't all that good as HG.) Quote: I misunderstood the topic title and wondered for a minute whether it was going to be about Sophie Hamel, Hilda Jukes and Nancy Wilmot! That might indeed make an interesting thread. I like Sophie and Nancy. Hilda less so, but we don't see her as an adult, so don't know her as well.

Author:	Tor [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Sunglass wrote: Quote: I misunderstood the topic title and wondered for a minute whether it was going to be about Sophie Hamel, Hilda Jukes and Nancy Wilmot! Perhaps it would have to be expanded to include the various Mollies (before they got their glands sorted) and Madge before she went to her clinic! Oh, and poor Samaris, who is told but the lovely girls in her class that she is too fat to be a ballet dancer. I'd never thought of Joey-the-schoolgirl as having so much influence because of her language abilities, but that is so true, Alison H! And JayB, I like the Antonia Forest parallel in Karen not being awarded a prize, and Len not getting any plaudits. Perhaps EBd found Len boring to write about, but couldn't get out of the rut - she certainly never says anything along the lines of 'one of the best head-girls we ever had' for Len, does she?

Author:	Cel [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I think Mary-Lou is by far the most successful character of these three, at least in terms of what I think EBD was trying to achieve, what she saw as the ideal Chalet School girl. Aside from the early Swiss books (when Mary Lou does get a bit bossy and is continually kicking people off seats she has 'bagged'), she's an appealing character as a young child (one of the best-drawn really little girls in the series, I think) who then matures very believably into an effective Head Girl and young adult. I think Older Mary Lou would have been a great person to have around in a crisis. The problems with Joey, much as I like her, are legion; and as for Len, I just feel a bit sorry for Len always - she's quite believable, unfortunately, as the stereotypical eldest child who just never seems to relax enough to really have fun. I remember someone (apologies if you're here, I can't remember who!) writing in a FOCS newsletter years ago and phrasing it very well - Joey is inconsistent but interesting, Len is consistent but dull. Only with Mary Lou does EBD get the balance right.

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I think Len is the least charismatic of the three, and that's my problem with her. As others have said, Joey has a large group of friends and is capable of connecting with people of all ages. She is a leader - not an unchallenged one, but girls often follow her whether she's in the right or the wrong. She is the most self-focused of the three, and clearly believes in letting other people "stand on their own feet", but at the same time if anyone comes to her asking for help she'll give it. Mary Lou is also the leader of a large group, and even though she has few friends outside of her own age group she's still capable of connecting with other people. She's more inclined than Joey to give help without it being asked of her, but she's also a lot more mature than Joey was at her age. Then there's Len, and she not only seems to be uncharismatic in her own life - I mean, EBD pretty much has to invent Jack Lambert to show us how attractive she is! - but she's similarly flat to read about. Jo and Mary Lou undoubtedly have their faults, but I'm seldom uninterested in reading about them. But I'm never dying to know what's going on with Len - even her sister Con, who EBD is constantly trying to tell us is too dreamy to be of interest to anyone, is a more fascinating character.

Author:	Dreaming Marianne [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Alison H wrote: and during the escape to Switzerland she is more than a hindrance than a help. Yes - and during one thread we had on the move to Switzerland someone drew a marvellous comparison with Jo being tucked up in bed whilst Daisy "breezily sat up to dinner". Jo always seemed to me to be a bit of a passenger in every adventure, when she didn't need tucking up in bed she was invariably fainting or requiring sedation with a selection of handy hypnotics. Hard work either way.

Author:	jennifer [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Joey was charming and gregarious a lot of fun, so she rose to the top of the social order and had people look up to her, but she didn't really have the personality to handle the practical aspects of leadership. Her tactlessness, disorganization, emotional volatility and tendency to collapse under stress all played against her there. Len has the personality for the practical parts. She's conscientious, responsible, reliable, organized, used to looking after other people, does her best to think of others and be fair. But she doesn't have the force of personality to be a natural leader - she's too inclined to conform, too caught up in being the good daughter. She never comes across as having the spark that makes people want to follow her. I see Len as perfect second prefect material - the one who takes care of details behind the scenes. Margot, for all her bad behaviour and temper, has that spark. Mary-Lou has both the personality and the practicality. People notice her and look up to her and follow her. She also has the wider vision that Joey lacked, to look at the broader needs and temper of the school. She's good at organizing, and follows things through. Her main problem is that she tends to be too bossy, too organizing, and too sure that the way she thinks is right. I think the staff did her a real disservice by not reining her in more. I see ML as being like the kind of older woman who runs the Women's Group at church with an iron hand. Everything is done and done well, and nothing falls by the wayside, but there isn't much room for anyone else to be part of the decision making process, and she keeps poking her nose in affairs that really don't concern her, even if she does mean well. The one even the Pastor and Synod Bishops are scared to cross.

Author:	Sarah_G-G [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
jennifer wrote: Joey was charming and gregarious a lot of fun, so she rose to the top of the social order and had people look up to her, but she didn't really have the personality to handle the practical aspects of leadership. Her tactlessness, disorganization, emotional volatility and tendency to collapse under stress all played against her there. Len has the personality for the practical parts. She's conscientious, responsible, reliable, organized, used to looking after other people, does her best to think of others and be fair. But she doesn't have the force of personality to be a natural leader - she's too inclined to conform, too caught up in being the good daughter. She never comes across as having the spark that makes people want to follow her. I see Len as perfect second prefect material - the one who takes care of details behind the scenes. Margot, for all her bad behaviour and temper, has that spark. I think I agree with most of what is written above. Joey is fascinating and realistic as a young character- nobody else could really have been headgirl in her year because people would have automatically looked to see what Joey did and thought, because she's just that kind of character. I don't mean that other characters around her couldn't have been headgirl in another time, just that it would have been almost impossible to be an effective headgirl when Jo was a prefect. In fact reading the bit quoted above made me think that Len in many ways was more like Frieda than like Jo. A natural peace maker, a good girl with a sense of fun but always wanting to please older people, organised and practical... Frieda as second prefect balanced Jo brilliantly, and I suspect Jo would have been nowhere near as successful without that steadying influence. The difference is that Frieda probably never expected to become head girl, whereas I do feel sorry for Len, always having to try to live up to her mother and to Mary-Lou. It probably made her a lot less sure of herself than she would have been otherwise. To comment briefly on Mary-Lou, I do think the staff pushed too much on her sometimes (Naomi, Jessica) and probably as a result of this, she is sometimes bossy and interfering (one of the most unintentionally amusing moments in Theodora has to be when ML tells Len off for fussing over her sisters too much!) but she is a natural leader, like Joey, and has Len's practicality. On top of this I think she is more mature in outlook at that age than either of the other two. I do find the "let's give a prize to ML for being so wonderful!" a little bit weird, I have to admit, but then I always think that with those types of prizes and just sort of accept it as part of CS land.

Author:	Maeve [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I think lots of people have summarized the situation very well -- Joey, not great head girl material, but the only option --both from the story's point of view and from EBD's, if you get my distinction -- I mean, Joey had to be head girl, no matter how unlikely a candidate she was, as she was THE heroine of the books at that point; Mary Lou, right from her introduction inThree is a very strong character and I think makes a good head girl; Len as Sarah_G-G just wrote, is rather like Frieda and a little colorless -- although, if I was a new girl, I think I'd like her as my sheepdog more than the other two Róisín asked: Quote: Were there other, better candidates that EBD should have lead with? I think Gisela should be remembered more often in the books, as she was not just the first head girl but a very good one who took a fair amount of initiative (pushing for the magazine, e.g.) in trying to shape the school. I think the choice of Grizel was a good, interesting one -- she's the only head girl, IIRC, who had to struggle with her own faults while in the post -- she wasn't automatically beyond the pale of bad behaviour. I wish we'd heard more about the headships of Corney, Josette, and Maeve -- all strong characters, so it would have been nice to see the storyline revolve more around them during their headships. Rosamund Liley is an interesting choice, also, being the scholarship child from a different social class to most of the girls. Again, I wish the storylines during her headship could have involved her more. How would she have handled a nouveau riche enemy like Diana Skellton? Then there are girls whom we seem to know little about as personalities -- Elinor Pennell or Jesanne Gellibrand, for instance. It's hard to understand why EBD made people like this head girl.

Author:	Tor [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Quote: Joey had to be head girl, no matter how unlikely a candidate she was This suddenly put a whole new spin on Madge's and Mlle's decision about making Jo head-girl for me! If Jo hadn't been the heroine of the stories, the book could easily have started with two heads despairing that they had a year without decent head-girl material, but had to pick someone, and that someone had to be Joey simply because she would lead anyway. As for other leaders EBD missed a trick in not developing further, well I've already put my pennysworth in for Margot, but I also wish we'd had more of the Quintette as seniors. By the time they get to that age, the action shifts to include Jo's out-of-school activities more, and the day-to-day school business fades into the background. At the end of Exile, Corney etc are rather vivid as prefects, but I'd have liked more of them as seniors in Jo Returns and New/United

Author:	Cat C [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Tor wrote: Quote: Joey had to be head girl, no matter how unlikely a candidate she was This suddenly put a whole new spin on Madge's and Mlle's decision about making Jo head-girl for me! If Jo hadn't been the heroine of the stories, the book could easily have started with two heads despairing that they had a year without decent head-girl material, but had to pick someone, and that someone had to be Joey simply because she would lead anyway. Starts hoping someone might write that, or even a version of a book where Joey isn't head girl and someone else is instead (if that makes sense)

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I'd like to have seen EBD's take on Robin as Head Girl (I love Caroline's book, but would like to've seen an EBD version too), because I think Robin as a teenager is a lovely character. She could potentially have been the one who had the sense and good leadership qualities but didn't have the bossiness, and she had more charisma that Peggy and arguably even Bride. Cat, someone - sorry, can't remember who it was - wrote a very good drabble in which Frieda was made Head Girl instead of Jo.

Author:	Emma A [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I wrote a drabble called 'One More Summer Grant', which was an alternative history to CS And Jo, where Jo left school early and Frieda was made HG in her stead. I don't know if that's the one Alison was thinking of (apologies for puffing it if it wasn't ).

Author:	JayB [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Quote: Then there are girls whom we seem to know little about as personalities -- Elinor Pennell or Jesanne Gellibrand, for instance. It's hard to understand why EBD made people like this head girl. Elinor was just there to keep the HG's seat warm for Mary Lou, wasn't she? That said, I do rather like her. She's quietly competent, more of a Gisela than a Jo or Mary Lou. I agree about Jesanne being an improbable HG, though. She'd been at school barely a year, I think. She only got the job because she'd been the heroine in her own book outside the CS. I can't think just now who else was around at the time who might have been an alternative HG.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Personally, Joey was always my favourite of the three. She seemed so accessible somehow - you could imagine meeting someone with the same qualities (at least for younger Joey). I never really liked Mary-Lou, she always seemed obnoxious and interfering. Also, the "leading the other Middle's by the nose" always sort of read as bullying to me. There was always a feeling that you went along with what Mary-Lou said or had a really hard time. Len was somewhat colourless, I think. In other stories, say 'Malory Towers', I could easily see her being portrayed as the good girl who nobody liked. I think it would have been good to make Con or Margot head girl, just to take responsibility off of Len a little bit and try to make one of the other's grow up a little bit. Slightly OT, but I do like the comment which says, IIRC, that Stephen usually leads the Maynard boys - I could see him and Len being really good friends because of it, and it would take some pressure off her at home at least.

Author:	Emma A [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I've thought for a while that Ted Grantley might have made a good HG...

Author:	MJKB [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
ChubbyMonkey wrote: I never really liked Mary-Lou, she always seemed obnoxious and interfering. Also, the "leading the other Middle's by the nose" always sort of read as bullying to me. There was always a feeling that you went along with what Mary-Lou said or had a really hard time. That's hard to argue with, she is given far too much leeway by the school authorities. Nevertheless I like ML, primarily because she is instinctively kind and genuinely likes to help others. I don't think she is intentionally bullying when she 'bags' seats and gets others to move. It's more the fault of the teacher on duty - Biddy?, She should have reprimanded her sharply and told her that such behaviour constitutes bullying and, furthermore, that it is lacking in respect for other people. I'm sure she'd have been horrified if that had been pointed out to her. The School really fails in its duty by not responding appropriately to her when she indulges in such officious behaviour. When Kathie Ferris ticks her off publically, she seems genuinely hurt and remains quiet for the rest of the lesson. A weaker character might have sulked but ML shows sufficient humility to ask advice from her friends and to act on it. From that point on she alters her manner towards Kathie but does not show resentment pique

Author:	Nightwing [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Emma A wrote: I've thought for a while that Ted Grantley might have made a good HG... I agree! In her first book we're told that she holds great powers of attraction which even effects the sensible Len and Rosamund. We see her struggle to break with her past and in future books I think we still see that she has flashes of temper - so she could have been a natural leader, and she's most definitely not colourless!

Author:	Abi [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I do think a lot of the problem with Mary-Lou is that not only is she given too much leeway, but she's actively encouraged and requested by staff to get involved in things that don't otherwise concern her. as she's only in her early-mid teens when this starts (I can't remember precisely, but maybe 14/15?). I can't imagine any girl of that age being treated like that and not supposing that she can legitimately interfere in anything in which she thinks she can help - which, to be fair, is usually Mary-Lou's motive. As for Len, I agree with everyone that she's really a bit two-dimensional - at least Joey and Mary-Lou have character, whereas Len doesn't have much really except for being the perfect Chalet School girl.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Just my random thought, but "the big three" were brought up very differently from each other. A lot's made of how Margot is irresponsible because she was indulged as a young child due to her "delicacy", but to some extent the same's true of Joey. The impression given is that Madge, out of genuine concern for Joey's health, wouldn't let the wind blow on her when she was young: I can't imagine that Joey was expected to help with the housework, and I should imagine she had a week off school every time she sneezed, and unlike Len she wasn't expected to be thinking of others' needs all the time. Len is never cosseted in that way: I half-wish that she'd been the one to get appendicitis in Joey and Co, just so that everyone would have had to've made a fuss of her and stop dumping stuff on her for a change. Mary-Lou was presumably somewhere in the middle. I can't imagine Mrs Trelawney senior (who seems to've ruled the roost in their home) being overly indulgent (all that stuff about Mary-Lou being a bit cheeky because she grew up surrounded by adults bemuses me, because I can't imagine that Gran, however devoted she may have been to her granddaughter, stood for any backchat!), but at the same time Mary-Lou didn't have all that "eldest of a long family" responsibility heaped on her at home.

Author:	Cat C [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I can't remember now, but didn't Jo get delicate later? Or did it start in India? Because most of Margot's delicacy (apart from the sore throat that got her deported to Canada of course), was when she was very small - nearly dying age two. Jo, by contrast is still busy nearly dying into her teens, which if anything would make her more likely to be bratty, but somehow she isn't, and that suggests she's basically a much nicer person than Margot.

Author:	Abi [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Or possibly that it was treated differently? Although Joey was cossetted physically she was rarely given much sympathy (especially when it was her own fault, which it not infrequently was!). Whereas Margot is more cossetted emotionally, if that makes sense - probably partly because she is younger, but still it would probably breed a very different attitude in her from the one Joey gained.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Jo started having health problems when she was 4. Madge never seems to have let her get away with bad behaviour because of them, but what I was trying to get at (sorry, probably didn't explain myself very well ) was that Joey was protected and fussed over more than Len or Mary-Lou were. Having said which, so was Robin, who also had to put up with being referred to as "the baby" when she was 6 , and she grew up to be pretty responsible even so .

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
But Margot was also protected in a way Joey never was. In Rescue we see Len giving way to Margot in everything whereas Con stood up to her sister. We also see Joey has tried to shield Margot from any kind of discipline, whereas Jack didn't let Margot get away with it and helped her see why her behaviour was wrong. Joey on the other hand was rarely shielded from having to face her own wrong/bad behaviour and Madge always helped her see where she was wrong in her behaviour as did those around her. Joey may have been protected more healthwise but she certainly wasn't behaviour wise whereas Margot seemed to be protected from having to face and take responsibility of her own behaviour by first her mother and then eldest sister. Con seemed to be the only one who refused to pander to her for a long time and she was usually told off for it and told she was tactless BTW I don't have an issue with Mary Lou and co bagging seats for each other. It happens all the time here-friends saving seats for each other, and yet people seem to be upset/offended by it and say Mary Lou was wrong to do so. Doesn't it happen in the UK? Or is it really looked down on when people do?

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Sorry to spree . Yes, it does happen here, and personally speaking that's why it annoys me, because it reminds me of a gang of 9 girls who dominated our class for the first 3 years of secondary school. Their leader would shove her way past people in the corridor, barge into the classroom, hold her arm out in a bizarre quasi-militaristic way and yell "Back three rows saved" ... unless it was the first lesson after break or dinner in which case she'd send one of her minions on ahead of her. Not that I'm still bitter about it or anything . Seriously, whilst I'm sure no-one would mind Margot saving a seat for Emerence or Len saving seats for Ros and Ted, I'd find it very annoying walking into a classroom or coach which was empty apart from one person and being told that my friends and I couldn't sit in any of the best half a dozen or more seats! In the early Swiss books, the Gang are all in the same form. We know that the CS doesn't like to have more than 25 girls in one form, and 9 or 10 people (I forget how many of them there were in all) out of 25 is a lot: other people must have felt intimidated sometimes. Edited to correct typo .

Author:	MJKB [ Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
Alison H wrote: Seriously, whilst I'm sure no-one would mind Margot saving a seat for Emerence or Len saving seats for Ros and Ted, I'd find it very annoying walking into a classroom or coach which was empty apart from one person and being told that my friends and I couldn't sit in any of the best half a dozen or more seats! In the early Swiss books, the Gang are all in the same form. We know that the CS doesn't like to have more than 25 girls in one form, and 9 or 10 people (I forget how many of them there were in all) out of 25 is a lot: other people must have felt intimidated sometimes. That wasappalling, and what was even more telling was how meekly the girls asked to move did so with barely a resigned air. That incident, though, was, in part at least, the fault of the teacher on duty. She should have given Mary Lou the telling off of her life. Mary Lou was so used to being the confidante of Joey and half the staff, the most important half of the staff, that she developed a sense of entitlement. At 15 or 16, with a very strong, determined disposition anyway, and being treated like she has the wisdom of Solomon by significant adults, it's hardly surprising that Mary Lou feels that she has a right to order the others around as she pleases. Apart from Kathie Ferris, whose dislike of the bumptious Mary Lou is regarded as faulty judgement on her part, there is only one other teacher who pulls her up for bossiness -can't for the life of me think who it is. Mary Lou was such a nice child, is basically an inherently decent and kind individual, it's such a pity that the staff ecourage the worst aspects of her character.

Author:	Maeve [ Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
MJKB wrote: Apart from Kathie Ferris, whose dislike of the bumptious Mary Lou is regarded as faulty judgement on her part, there is only one other teacher who pulls her up for bossiness -can't for the life of me think who it is. Are you thinking of Miss Dene in Barbara? It's half-term and Mary Lou is suggesting who Francie, who doesn't have a partner, should walk with: Quote: "And that leaves Gwen and me - and Francie," Beth Lane said. "Who's she going with?" "You two if you like," said Mary-Lou the ready. "Or she can tag on with Verity and me. Just as you say." "I'll come with you, Beth, if I may," Francie said quickly. "If I'm with Mary-Lou she'll boss me to death!" she added ungratefully. Miss Dene had stood back while these amenities were proceeding. Now she decided that she had better take a hand. She took a step forward. "Now that's enough," she said firmly. "Francie, that is not the way to reply to an offer that was meant kindly, I don't doubt. As for you, Mary-Lou, be careful or you'll be turning into one of those domineering women that no one likes. Francie, if Beth and Gwen will have you, you may go with them." Mary-Lou had subsided and joined Verity-Anne, her face as red as a peony. Francie's was no better. Between being told to take care to avoid being too bossy and ticked off for bad manners, she rather thought she would prefer the former. Miss Dene chuckled inwardly... About the seat bagging incident from Mary Lou, it does seem as though the other girls, Hilda and Jill, were potentially as bad: Quote: Lesley and Hilary had “bagged” a couple near the platform by the simple means of each lying full-length on hers until the rest joined up. The Gang, augmented by Jessica and Clare, who had lately taken the new girl under her wing, fled to take their places, for Hilda Jukes and Jill Ormsby from VA were beginning to argue that they wanted those seats for their crowd. It's unclear how big "their crowd" is, but presumably more than a seat for one friend each -- surely that wouldn't constitute a "crowd." However, there's no doubt the gang were formidable. Quote: Hilary sat up with a look of relief as Mary-Lou arrived. “For any sake, Mary-Lou, make these two realise that these seats are bagged!” she said. Mary-Lou grinned at the pair. “Sorry; but it’s so,” she said as she pushed Hilary’s feet on to the floor and sat down. “Come on, Verity! Room for a little one!” Hilda and Jill grimaced and retired to find seats further down the room. They knew their Mary-Lou! In any case, the remaining thirteen had been ready to back her up. I don't think it's their number so much, as that they all have imbibed a certain amount of Mary Lou's certainty/confidence -- and the staff has condoned them as a group, which must have boosted their sense of self-importance.

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls: The Big Three
I used to wonder whether Hilda Jukes and Jill Ormsby had a secondary gang to Mary-Lou's 'Gang' - maybe started in rivalry? In which case you could read this as a (failed) challenge for supremacy! I think seat 'bagging' is emotive for a lot of people because it's often a way for schoolgirls (and boys for all I know!) to assert dominance and the pecking order - it comes up quite a bit (mostly as desk bagging) in school stories. I've always found this incident a bit irritating, too - fair enough, it's just two gangs squabbling over seats, but the issue seems to be resolved less on the fairer grounds that one gang legitimately bagged them first, than on the grounds that Mary-Lou cannot ever be successfully challenged, and that this fact is beyond argument. But this becomes a self-reinforcing situation because we never see anyone strong challenge her - everyone around her is either a henchman (henchwoman?) or a minor character like poor Hilda Jukes, who seems to have been invented to be a vaguely idiotic, giggly podge. What would have happened if EBD had developed another leader who simply didn't understand that Mary-Lou is unassailable, and who didn't see why someone else shouldn't call the shots, who didn't back down? Or - an amusing thought occurs - what would have happened if EBD had suffered from a serious time wrinkle, and the Big Three were all the same age and at the CS together at the same time? (Obvious, this would mean finessing the point that one of them is the daughter of another, but you get my drift.) Would schoolgirl Joey beat Mary-Lou into second place, for instance, or vice versa? Would Len retire to the Frieda Mensch-type dependable best friend role that in some ways she seems designed for? Would schoolgirl Joey even like schoolgirl Len?