The CBB :: View topic - Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott

I'd say that EBD must be one of the last writers who did still write children's fiction in a way that was influenced by a 19th century style of writing, with a strong sense of religion and duty and people being reformed ... or am I totally wrong there?

Jo Bettany does seem to be based on Jo March in many ways, but Jo March grows up and Jo Bettany never really does. LM Alcott's books are more grown-up generally - in a CS book, John Brooke would have conveniently been left a fortune by a rich uncle so that Meg didn't have to manage on a small budget!

What's quite different, though, is that the ultimate moral authority in Little Women is the father, who comes home from war and pronounces on the moral and 'womanly' progress of his daughters

"In spite of the curly crop, I don't see the 'son Jo' whom I left a year ago," said Mr. March. "I see a young lady who pins her collar straight, laces her boots neatly, and neither whistles, talks slang, nor lies on the rug as she used to do. Her face is rather thin and pale just now, with watching and anxiety, but I like to look at it, for it has grown gentler, and her voice is lower. She doesn't bounce, but moves quietly, and takes care of a certain little person in a motherly way which delights me.

"Jo should have remained a literary spinster, but so many enthusiastic young ladies wrote to me clamorously demanding that she should marry Laurie, or somebody, that I didn't dare refuse and out of perversity went and made a funny match for her"

Alcott seemed to take a lot of frustrations in her own life - particularly her frustrations as a writer - out on Jo, whereas EBD gives Joey Maynard the life she wishes she had.

Does any one know one of LM Alcotts other books Jack and Jill, which has them showing patience after a sledging accident much like Mary Lou's but it takes longer to recover from and they and their friends are all better people by the end.

Alcott seemed to take a lot of frustrations in her own life - particularly her frustrations as a writer - out on Jo, whereas EBD gives Joey Maynard the life she wishes she had.
One thing that strikes me about L M Alcott is that I don't think that Little Women was all about wish fulfillment for her, whereas you definitely get that sense with the Chalet series - not in the early books, but in the later series. Alcott didn't want Jo to get married at all, and in fact said,

Quote:

Quote courtesy of Wikipedia!

Alcott seemed to take a lot of frustrations in her own life - particularly her frustrations as a writer - out on Jo, whereas EBD gives Joey Maynard the life she wishes she had.

It's something we don't really see in the CS books, but Mr March's experience in coming home from war to find that those he'd left at home had changed is very typical of what happens. It'd be interesting to see e.g. the changes Friedel saw in Wanda, André saw in Simone, Raphael saw in Elisaveta etc after their experiences during the war.

I am doing EA300 with the OU this year, and the current TMA is on LW and growing up! This is going to be of use! I wonder if my tutor will accept CBB as an authoritive scholarly resource?

Meg and Jo having to work, even though Jo only "works" as a companion to her aunt, is seen as having a positive effect on their characters, as is coping with "poverty" generally. It's an idea that's not really used in the CS ... other than being the reason the school is set up in the first place.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:39 am ]
Post subject:	Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
L M Alcott features in the Chalet School series from time to time. Joey Bettany says she plans to never marry or grow up like Jo March and the Prefects in Peggy of the Chalet School perform scenes from the book Little Women. L M Alcott is an American writer from the 19th Century, who wrote prolifically for both adults and children. She was taught by her Father, the naturalist Henry David Thoreau and other writers such as Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nathaniel Hawthorn and Margaret Fuller. Her first novel was Flower Fables, written for Ralph Emerson’s daughter Ellen, but her novel Hospital Sketches gained her, her first critical recognition. She went on to write sensational novels, which were popular at the time, under a nom de plume A M Barnard. Little Women is her best known work and is loosely based upon her own family life. After writing Little Women, L M Alcott went on to write a number of children’s novels, such Eight Cousins, Rose in Bloom and An Old Fashioned Girl. L M Alcott was also an abolitionist and a feminist and believed avidly in the Women’s suffragette. Like EBD, L M Alcott never married however she did raise her niece and namesake Louisa after her mother died. We have many similarities between the characters, beginning with the names Jo Bettany and Jo March. Both are strong characters; neither is particularly feminine, and both want to be writers. They also latterly adopt a number of children beside their own. We also have similarities between Beth March and the Robin, both are portrayed as gentle, frail girls, not long for this world and where L M Alcott allows Beth to die, (as her own sister Beth does) EBD does write of Robin’s potential for dying young in and Jo. We also have the wise Mother figure in the Heads, particularly Madge and later Hilda Annersley whom, like Mrs March encourages the girls to develop a relationship with God and to call upon him to help with bosom enemies (temper, vanity etc). We also see a very early boarding school book in Little Men which happens to be co-ed and remains very much a family affair, while the Chalet School grows. However, both schools consider a pupil to be successful if they grow into caring people, who help others. Both EBD and L M Alcott write about themes of death and dying, helping others and there is a strong religious element within their books. We also have many scenes and books written of home, marriage and family life (for EBD this occurs more in the LaRochelle series than in the Chalet School series). Both writers’ beliefs are often reflected in their writing. L M Alcott’s characters promoted learning for girl’s well ahead for it time, along with housewifely duties. Two main female characters, Daisy and Nan are both allowed to find success in the various different paths they decide to follow with Nan becoming a doctor and Daisy a housewife. It is interesting to note that L M Alcott will keep a character single so she may pursue her career whereas EBD seems to promote marriage above career, (think Julie Lucy, and Mary Burnett). EBD has a strong ecumenical flavour in her books with characters being open to Catholic and Protestant beliefs, something we don’t see much of in L M Alcott’s writings. So what do people think of L M Alcott as a writer? Had anyone not read her books before reading EBD and were so inspired to read L M Alcott’s books after seeing them mentioned in the Chalet School books? What do people think of the various themes covered in their books? Does anyone prefer one writer over the other in the way they deal with a particular theme? Please feel free to discuss these points along with any others you can think of

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Little Women's set during my specialist period of American history, so I've read it a zillion times, and I find LM Alcott's writings about her experiences as a nurse in wartime very interesting. Her books are very much influenced by the ideas of the Second/Third Great Awakenings, and I think we get some of that in the early CS books with the talk about the San never turning away a patient in need, Joey giving the last of her Christmas spending money to a hungry child in Innsbruck, etc, but it's not there as much in the later books - although that could just be because 1950s Switzerland was a far more affluent society than 1930s Tyrol. We certainly don't get so much of the Pilgrim's Progress type stuff in EBD's books, and we don't get the ecumenicalism (is that the right word?) in LM Alcott's. Jo Bettany does seem to be based on Jo March in many ways, but Jo March grows up and Jo Bettany never really does. LM Alcott's books are more grown-up generally - in a CS book, John Brooke would have conveniently been left a fortune by a rich uncle so that Meg didn't have to manage on a small budget! & I'm glad that Robin didn't just fade away and die like Beth March did, although Beth as an angelic child never gets on my nerves in the way that Robin as an angelic child does, but there are certainly similarities between the two. I'd say that EBD must be one of the last writers who did still write children's fiction in a way that was influenced by a 19th century style of writing, with a strong sense of religion and duty and people being reformed ... or am I totally wrong there?

Author:	JennieP [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Alison H wrote: I'd say that EBD must be one of the last writers who did still write children's fiction in a way that was influenced by a 19th century style of writing, with a strong sense of religion and duty and people being reformed ... or am I totally wrong there? Elizabeth Goudge's 'Little White Horse' and 'Linnets and Valerians'? Admittedly with a strong fantasy element rather than everyday life, but still with a clear religious redemptive thread running through it. And written very much in the style of a good fifty years before rather than the 60's when she was writing. (Bit OT, sorry!)

Author:	andydaly [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
And I suppose CS Lewis and J R R Tolkien, but they are pretty much contemporaries of EBD, and again, it's fantasy rather than the real world that they deal with.

Author:	Nightwing [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Alison H wrote: Jo Bettany does seem to be based on Jo March in many ways, but Jo March grows up and Jo Bettany never really does. LM Alcott's books are more grown-up generally - in a CS book, John Brooke would have conveniently been left a fortune by a rich uncle so that Meg didn't have to manage on a small budget! At least in Little Men I do think that Jo March still retains some of her... 'schoolgirlishness', for want of a better word! She still understands children very well, and still has a habit of exclaiming "Shakespeare!" Actually, I suspect 'boyishness' is almost a better word for it. I think the woman that Jo March becomes is the woman that EBD wanted Joey Bettany to become, but was just never capable of pulling it off. I do think that Jo Bettany was meant to be a Jo March character, and Robin became a sort of Beth. I also think Sybil as a young girl is a lot like a young Amy.

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Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6922

Author:	Mel [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
In one of the newsletters EBD claims that Joey was an original invention 'certainly not Jo March' but I think unconsciously she did use a lot of JM in her creation. The school idea is interesting - I hadn't seen that connection before, because JM does create a very different kind of school like Madge does, with its emphasis on being a family and character above scholarship.

Author:	Pado [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
I wanted to be Jo March as a child in a way that I never wanted to be Jo Bettany. I liked the independence, the imagination, the moving off to the city to be a writer, the rebellious period of writing "bad works", and even her marrying Professor Bhaer (although I think I had a crush on Laurie). I liked her interactions with her sisters. I liked her patient impatience with Aunt March. I really liked her as an adult, much more than Meg, because she seemd three-dimensional, and I loved the school in Little Men. I can imagine sitting down to a cup of tea with her and having a conversation. But then, I owned all of the Little Women books, and only had a couple Chalet School books at the time.

Author:	mohini [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
I liked Little Women and is my fav. book when I want to shed tears. I liked Beth and felt that Jo was a well drawn character. LMA books seem more modern of her times. Though Jo Bettany has same name and some characteristics like Jo March, I feel they are totally different. Jo Bettany seems to adopt children because it was necessary at that time because of the circumstances. Jo March adopts children because she knows she understands them (Specially boys) and can help them become better characters. We do not see Jo Maynard trying to develop or change the character of the children either by action or words. Ruey gets ideas by watching Len. LMA girls seem real with all their good points and faults. I can sympathize with Jo for not being able to play like boys climb trees ride, I can sympathize with Meg when she sees her friends have nice things. Love is alright but nice things also bring joy. Her actions seem so true. EDB books are from a different era.She focuses more on school than on families or emotions, Whatever emotions or family scenes are there , are because they were necessary for the plot. Jo as an adult seems unreal. Jo as a school girl was one of my fav.character. I wanted to be like her.

Author:	Sunglass [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Until I'd started thinking about parallels, I hadn't realised there were so many - besides the Jo/Joey, Beth/Robin, Marmee/Madge/Mademoiselle/Hilda/Older Joey parallels, there are idealised family relationships, the dress-up plays full of falling scenery like various CS entertainments, Amy burning Jo's book like Deira burning Grizel's, Amy falling through the ice like Maureen in Rivals, disastrous cookery experiments, expeditions, the father at a distance in danger miraculously returning - even the game of 'Truth' they play on the picnic is a bit like the controversial 'Impertinent Questions in Three Go. And of course Beth's fever breaking in Little Women is very much the template for Joey's various brushes with death. EBD is also absolutely like LMA in her preference for girls to be kept 'young' in terms of their relationships with men, only it doesn't really come up in an all-female schoolgirl environment the way it does for, say, Meg, who is old enough to be 'out', and on her one visit to 'worldly' friends, to drink champagne, wear low-cut dresses and to have her relationship with Laurie speculated about by the more sophisticated in a way her mother fears has damaged her innocence permanently. And the wistful, irritated way Jo March responds to the signs her sister is growing up is very much the same way schoolgirl Joey reacts to talk about marriage and adulthood. But maybe more important ones are the moral code, in which everyone has a particular besetting sin they must continually struggle with - and the personalised way it's written about as a 'bosom enemy', rather like Margot's devil. I think Joey's night-time prayers and talks with the triplets are directly from Marmee's, and the scene where Margot is astonished that Len claims to struggle with temper and untidiness is descended from the one where Jo is surprised to find self-controlled Marmee has struggled all her life with anger. Lots of the scenes where Jo controls her temper are like Margot's similar struggles. And the various plotlines that involve giving up something for the sake of staying at home for someone else's sake are also very like some CS plots. What's quite different, though, is that the ultimate moral authority in Little Women is the father, who comes home from war and pronounces on the moral and 'womanly' progress of his daughters, and whose approval is their big reward in human terms. There's no male equivalent in EBD's matriarchy, and I like her all the better for it. I also cannot imagine for a single second Joey taking it lying down if Jack reminded her to keep her temper in public by putting his finger on his lips, the way Mr March does to his wife!

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
There's no EBD equivalent of Mr Laurence either, which is a shame because he's so lovely with Beth. Grossmutter Mensch's reaction to meeting Robin, who reminds her of Natalie, is a sort of parallel to Mr Laurence having a soft spot for Beth because she reminds him of his late granddaughter, but that relationship never really develops as we never see them together again and anyway Grossmutter dies when Robin is still only very young.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Sunglass wrote: What's quite different, though, is that the ultimate moral authority in Little Women is the father, who comes home from war and pronounces on the moral and 'womanly' progress of his daughters The thing that strikes me as quite different between Jo March and Jo Bettany as adolescents is mostly to do with how prescriptive 19thc norms of femininity were, and how relatively free Joey Bettany is, as a girl in her mid to late teens, in comparison. When Mr March gets back and sermonises his family about their moral progress since he's been at war, his approving account of Jo is entirely based on her having painstakingly suppressed her 'boyishness' into something more akin to contemporary ideas of 'proper' femininity. He doesn't comment on her having learned to govern her temper, but on entirely cosmetic surface matters, such as how she dresses, speaks and moves: Quote: "In spite of the curly crop, I don't see the 'son Jo' whom I left a year ago," said Mr. March. "I see a young lady who pins her collar straight, laces her boots neatly, and neither whistles, talks slang, nor lies on the rug as she used to do. Her face is rather thin and pale just now, with watching and anxiety, but I like to look at it, for it has grown gentler, and her voice is lower. She doesn't bounce, but moves quietly, and takes care of a certain little person in a motherly way which delights me. What drives me nuts about this little scene is that there's zero moral worth to this terrible self-suppression Jo has put herself through - the way she pins her collar makes absolutely no difference in her attempts to be good, it's just what her particular society thinks a woman should be - the Angel in the House. It's an appalling waste of energy. LMA clearly enjoys Jo's tomboyishness, but feels it needs to be suppressed. Joey Bettany, on the other hand, is allowed to be something of a tomboy, and despite the fact that the authorities cluck at times about her untidiness, whistling, rushing about, hands in pockets etc, it's key to her charm. There's no suggestion that her failure to be as traditionally feminine as, say, Frieda Mensch, is a moral failing - we're told later that marriage brings out the 'womanliness' in her, but no one forces it on her. Schoolgirls in the 1930s are allowed to run around, lead energetic lives, have adventures, be untidy etc, and the CS ideal doesn't involve primness or demureness, but is essentially Joey. For which, in comparison to poor Jo March having to learn she's not allowed to run, for instance, now that she's growing up, I say Hallelujah!

Author:	Nightwing [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
One thing that strikes me about L M Alcott is that I don't think that Little Women was all about wish fulfillment for her, whereas you definitely get that sense with the Chalet series - not in the early books, but in the later series. Alcott didn't want Jo to get married at all, and in fact said, Quote: "Jo should have remained a literary spinster, but so many enthusiastic young ladies wrote to me clamorously demanding that she should marry Laurie, or somebody, that I didn't dare refuse and out of perversity went and made a funny match for her" Quote courtesy of Wikipedia! Alcott seemed to take a lot of frustrations in her own life - particularly her frustrations as a writer - out on Jo, whereas EBD gives Joey Maynard the life she wishes she had.

Author:	ammonite [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Quote: Alcott seemed to take a lot of frustrations in her own life - particularly her frustrations as a writer - out on Jo, whereas EBD gives Joey Maynard the life she wishes she had. That could be why I have always preferred the chalet school to Little Women. That the Chalet School you always knew it would be alright in the end whereas with Little Women and the others you didn't. Jo Bettany had the fairy tale life of being able to live in a different country and plan her own life whereas Jo March lived in the family enviroment where more things were sent to try them without the usual range of fire/flood/trip problem that the Chalet School had, which made the Chalet School feel more like fantasy. I always wanted to be a writer when I was younger but never identified much with Jo March and More with Jo Bettany. In fact whilst I have read several others of LM Alcott several times I don't think I went back to Little Women and the others in that set very often at all. Does any one know one of LM Alcotts other books Jack and Jill, which has them showing patience after a sledging accident much like Mary Lou's but it takes longer to recover from and they and their friends are all better people by the end.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
ammonite wrote: Does any one know one of LM Alcotts other books Jack and Jill, which has them showing patience after a sledging accident much like Mary Lou's but it takes longer to recover from and they and their friends are all better people by the end. I have. I've read/own all of LM Alcott's children's books. I would love to get hold of Hospital Sketches though. I love LM Alcott and often reread them. Nightwing wrote: Alcott seemed to take a lot of frustrations in her own life - particularly her frustrations as a writer - out on Jo, whereas EBD gives Joey Maynard the life she wishes she had. One thing that strikes me about L M Alcott is that I don't think that Little Women was all about wish fulfillment for her, whereas you definitely get that sense with the Chalet series - not in the early books, but in the later series. Alcott didn't want Jo to get married at all, and in fact said, Quote: "Jo should have remained a literary spinster, but so many enthusiastic young ladies wrote to me clamorously demanding that she should marry Laurie, or somebody, that I didn't dare refuse and out of perversity went and made a funny match for her" Quote courtesy of Wikipedia! Alcott seemed to take a lot of frustrations in her own life - particularly her frustrations as a writer - out on Jo, whereas EBD gives Joey Maynard the life she wishes she had. Little Women was loosely based on LM Alcott's life and LM Alcott never married. Maybe she wrote to book to sort out/ work through her own issues, angst about her childhood, so I don't see her taking her frustrations out on her characters but that they were more the frustrations/difficulties LM Alcott had to face or deal with

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Author:	KatS [ Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Reading this discussion, Jo March's situation reminds me a lot of Polly Winterton's actually, with the difference that her father comes back to remark approvingly on the changes he see in her, rather than coming back to enforce the changes he would like. I mean, Mr. Winterton "decides his family would be happier in the country", forces them to move out to Yorkshire, far away from any schools, before taking off for ten years, and then thinks: "His first job must be to undo the results of the last ten years’ lack of training, and it was a difficult matter. Finally he decided to cut right across their lives. They would leave the moors where they had run wild..." If he hadn't uprooted them from London in the first place, there wouldn't have been any moors for them to run wild on! Tomboy Polly and Lala have to become "little ladies", dress tidily, wear big shady hats to avoid freckling, develop "pretty ways" with their mother, etc. Freddy, who presumably has been under the same regime as the girls, is just fine. By the end of Peggy, Mrs. Winterton thinks: "she really found it hard to believe that the prettily-mannered girls who spoke so nicely, and treated her with the same charming ways as the Bettany girls treated their mother, could be the same two", which strikes me as the same kind of thing as the Little Women passage Cosimo's Jackal quoted above. And Polly is 15 in, what, the late 40s?

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Poor Polly even gets told off for telling her mother to watch where she's going when she (Mrs W) nearly walks off the end of the jetty into the sea. As Polly says, the water's deep there, none of them can swim and there's no-one else around: another few steps and Mrs W could have been drowned. Yet Mrs W's reaction is to tell Polly that her father would be very angry if he heard the way she's just spoken! It's something we don't really see in the CS books, but Mr March's experience in coming home from war to find that those he'd left at home had changed is very typical of what happens. It'd be interesting to see e.g. the changes Friedel saw in Wanda, André saw in Simone, Raphael saw in Elisaveta etc after their experiences during the war.

Author:	Emma A [ Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Alison H wrote: It's something we don't really see in the CS books, but Mr March's experience in coming home from war to find that those he'd left at home had changed is very typical of what happens. It'd be interesting to see e.g. the changes Friedel saw in Wanda, André saw in Simone, Raphael saw in Elisaveta etc after their experiences during the war. Now going completely OT, but I'm currently reading 'Wartime' by Juliet Gardiner, and she mentions there the varying reactions that women had to their men returning - even if only on leave - expecting the home to be running as if their wife wasn't looking after everything on a miniscule budget and working in a munitions factory (or similar) as well! I've often thought that EBD was influenced by Alcott - as were many of Alcott's successors, I think. Alcott's characters are very real people, and very much of their time. I think that Mr March's commendation of Jo after his return home is only to be expected - he may well not have been home long enough to notice her attempts to control her temper (though Marmee does, and Jo appreciates her commendation). After all, Jo would find it difficult to go through life in their society as a tomboy, so being made to fit a more feminine role could be argued as a positive improvement. Obviously Jo never really attains that truly womanly state (as Meg does, almost effortlessly), but one would far rather go to her for comfort (as Dan does in 'Jo's Boys') than to Meg or Amy.

Author:	Karry [ Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
I am doing EA300 with the OU this year, and the current TMA is on LW and growing up! This is going to be of use! I wonder if my tutor will accept CBB as an authoritive scholarly resource?

Author:	abbeybufo [ Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Karry wrote: I am doing EA300 with the OU this year, and the current TMA is on LW and growing up! This is going to be of use! I wonder if my tutor will accept CBB as an authoritive scholarly resource? There is also a discussion this month on GirlsOwn about growing up in GO lit ...

Author:	Karry [ Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
I am om GO, and have been reading this with interest an thinking how to reference this! If we can somehow link Treasure Island in with LW!

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
I think the reason I find Mr March's sage-like remarks and universal veneration annoying - not just his commendation of Jo having become more 'ladylike' - is that LMA was making a highly idealised portrait of her own brilliant Transcendentalist father, but leaving out the fact that, despite his high ideals and brilliance, he led his family an awful life, dragging them around in severe poverty from one failed experimental school/commune venture. You can only admire lots of Amos Bronson Alcott's principles - fighting for an end to slavery and helping fugitive slaves, admitting a black child to one of his experimental schools (which promptly closed for lack of pupils), pioneering female education - but there's no denying his way of life demanded huge sacrifices and caused a lot of misery for his wife and children. I think one of the things about Little Women that is wish-fulfilment is that their home, though genteelly poor, is settled (and priivate, not a commune), and that though Mr March lost the family's money through apparently being too trusting of a friend's scheme, the reuslting poverty isn't his fault the way the Alcott poverty and endless moving about was Mr Alcott's. I suppose you could argue that authoritarian, high-flying, but almost always-present fathers like Jem and Jack in the CS books are a kind of wish fulfilment on EBD's part also, for her own complicated situation via-a-vis her absent/present father...?

Author:	sealpuppy [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
I always wanted to be Jo March too and she was one of the influences in my becoming a writer (along with Mary-Dorothy Devine in EJO). I do think it's fairly clear that EBD 'borrowed' quite a lot from LMA: the cracking ice, the book burning, etc, but then she also borrowed a lot from Mrs George de Horne Vaizey, Victorian/Edwardian GO writer. She even, I think I'm right in saying it's in Behind the Chalet School, used the name Patricia Mariquita for herself, and that's a straight lift from 'About Peggy Savile' by Vaizey. As are a lot of the scrapes and jokes, ie the sheets and pillowcase parties. But I think Little Women must have been a very early influence and perhaps it was subconscious 'borrowing'. (I can't talk, I 'borrow' from Charlotte M Yonge and Mrs Henry Wood for my Victorian cosy mysteries! )

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Just reviving this thread because of a random thought I had whilst reading a book in which a well-to-do family lose a lot of money during the Depression. In Little Women, there's an idea that there's something sort of noble about a middle class family who have lost money through bad luck coping with (what they perceive as) being "poor". The Marches are happier than the wealthy Laurences, and it's all very romantic when Meg March, who would have been expected to marry someone fashionable and well off, marries John Brooke. In the What Katy Did books, the wealthy Pages compare unfavourably with their poor relations, the Carrs. In School At, we do see Madge bravely setting up her own business when her family loses money, but by the later books the idea's gone completely. I think, for example, I'd've liked the Len and Reg romance much better if, instead of Joey shouting her mouth off in the San about how Reg had a private income, we'd seen Len deciding that Reg was so wonderful (OK, maybe he'd've needed a personality transplant first) that she wanted to marry him even if meant not having a big house and domestic staff. Probably a bad example as a doctor would be on a good salary, but you get the idea. Meg and Jo having to work, even though Jo only "works" as a companion to her aunt, is seen as having a positive effect on their characters, as is coping with "poverty" generally. It's an idea that's not really used in the CS ... other than being the reason the school is set up in the first place.

Author:	MJKB [ Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD & L M Alcott
Alison H wrote: Meg and Jo having to work, even though Jo only "works" as a companion to her aunt, is seen as having a positive effect on their characters, as is coping with "poverty" generally. It's an idea that's not really used in the CS ... other than being the reason the school is set up in the first place. Jo's life as a companion is portrayed as very difficult, as is Meg's work as a governess. They're both quite young to be contributing to the family's finances, not a great deal older than Joey Bettany is when Madge starts the CS as a way out of poverty for herself and Joey. I read a children's biography of LMA, and I agree with Cosimo's Jackel that the real life Mr. March was very self centered in his virtue. His family lived in very real poverty in order for him to live up to his principles. Actually, he's a perfect argument for a celebate priesthood.