The CBB :: View topic - Girls Own: EBD and EJO

and don't get me started on the names! (Dammy-Marry, Mary-Dorothy etc)

"The boys call me Lav. I hates it," and Lavinia flushed resentfully. (Schoolgirl Jen at the Abbey)

Dare I ask what a 'Bidet' might be? (Sorry if that is horrible naive, but last week I made my mum laugh by calmly asking if 'LED' wasn't also a slang name for a drug, so naive I be!)

However, I do think EBD bears the new reader in mind rather better than EJO.

The Abbey is almost a character in its own right in EJO's series - and takes the place of the CS in EBD's, I think.

The first AG book I read was At Home. I was as confused as Betty Maclean by all the Lady Marchwoods in the first chapter.

Sadly AGA is also one of the 4 titles that were very badly abridged for the Children's Press edition [as indeed was AG at Home], so you don't get anything like the full story

I've only read EJO as an adult - I have about 8 or 10 of the Abbeys and have enjoyed them. They do vary a lot, I think - the later written ones do seem to be written for a younger age range. I prefer the earlier ones and particularly liked *Go Back To School* - I was rather disappointed when the girls go off folk dancing just a couple of books later - *Back To School* paints such a positive picture and I liked Miss Newcastle...

The Abbey Girls don't exactly 'go off' folk dancing - they find that life gets a bit full of other things like marriage and babies, so no longer give it first place in their lives.

AG Again is quite a good one to get into the series with - it starts with new characters that you don't already know, and as they meet the 'established' main characters you learn about them as well

To be honest, the main thing is not to read any of the Retrospective titles as your first one, and that AG at Home, AG Play Up and probably AG On Trial are all ones that you're better only reading once you know who everybody is.

...and Strangers, Selma and Tomboys only need reading once or twice in a lifetime

...and Strangers, Selma and Tomboys only need reading once or twice in a lifetime

Abbeybufo wrote:

Quote:

...and Strangers, Selma and Tomboys only need reading once or twice in a lifetime

Twice? So often? :cry:

I like Mary-Dorothy too - she somehow seems more like an ordinary person than some of the others! I always felt terribly sorry for her in at Home (I think) - the one where Jen's mother dies and Mary-Dorothy fails her and Ann Rowney has to take over and 'talk sense' to Jen.

I can't remember which book it is, but there's one in which Joy is keeping Andrew Marchwood dangling - Joey Maynard would have told her off for messing him about! - and he seems to get quite pally with Mary Dorothy, and when I read it I really hoped (at this point I didn't know what was going to happen to him , I was thinking in terms of living happily ever after) he'd realise that he could do much better than Joy and go off with Mary Dorothy instead ... but he didn't .

What happens to him???

NB, what is Jen and Jack calling themselves husband and wife all about?

Worse, they all had at least two different names (their Queen name and their real name, then some of them had multiple nicnames, too) which meant I was never sure who I was actually reading about! And the very worst thing was that each and every single one of them seemed to be on their second or third lot of twins!

I've just giggled into my coffee over this. I love EJO but you are so right. Robins is a book with a lot crammed into it. Have you read any of the earlier ones? I think Mary Devine is an interesting adult character.

I think Mary Devine is an interesting adult character.

Quote:

I think Mary Dorothy is an interesting character as well as she can be strong but then will suddenly collapse and feel inadaquate.

Have just followed up a vague niggling memory and looked through my books to discover I have a 1st edition of The Camp Mystery by EJO inscribed in her own fair hand: To Elinor with every good wish, Elsie Jeanette Oxenham Dec.1932
I'm assuming Elinor is EBD; wonder if she enjoyed it? Not a book I read more than once every ten years, if that

All I can say to that is :bawling:

I'm green with envy!

Well, Abi is going to take care of the cats while I sneak in and get the books; one each, Abi?

the most fearsome weapon of all, a nappy-wearer with a snuffly nose and sticky hands. Take that, Abi! My first editions are safely guarded.

Author:	JB [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Elsie Jeanette Oxenham (EJO) was born in 1880. Her first book, Goblin Island was published in 1907 and over the course of her 52 year writing career, she published a further 86 titles. More information about EJO and her work can be found in the Wikipedia articles here for biographical information and here for the main Abbey Series. Unlike, EBD, Brazil or Bruce, her work was out of print from the 1960s until GGB began reprinting certain titles in 2001, with the exception of the two new titles her niece discovered and had published in the 1990s. She’s best known for her Abbey series of 38 books and, like EBD, alongside this main series, she wrote other books and series, some of which were connectors and some of which were stand-alone titles. Both wrote a mixture of school and family stories, but although the Abbey series does include a school, the Hamlet Club and the Abbey “family” are more important to the series’ development. Both the Abbey and Chalet series feature main characters who are there from the early days of the series but who fade out later on, to be replaced by a new generation. The Hamlet Club is begun by Cicely Hobart as a school girl and, whilst the club remains central to the series, Cicely herself makes only rare appearances as the series progresses. In a similar way, Madge Bettany takes a minor supporting role in the Chalet series once the school has moved to England. Interestingly, EBD was not the first writer to write about a school which was linked to a nearby sanatorium. Several of EJO’s Swiss series (1921 on) feature two schools (one for girls and one for boys) which cater for the pupils of a TB san on a shelf called the Platz. At a personal level, the two writers met in the 1920s through the English Folk Dance Society and remained in intermittent contact for the rest of EJO’s life. Seven Scamps is dedicated to EJO and she is also honoured in that Gwensi Howell has a “whole shelf” of her books in her bedroom at Plas Howell. A few questions to start us off (but please do throw in any of your ideas and questions): Have you read books by both authors? Do you have a favourite? Which did you read first? Did you read their main series first and then move onto the connectors and non-connectors? What are the similarities between their work? What are the differences? Do you feel that one has stood the test of time better than the other? Many of EJO’s titles are available in transcript: these are on a gmail site user name is : abbeytranscripts password is : Oxenham This week's discussion was a joint effort between Ruth and myself (but only one of us could post it, natch). ETA correction to gmail site

Author:	Alison H [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
There are some obvious similarities, although some may just have been GO conventions/tropes. The Swiss books (which I prefer to the Abbey books - Rennie and Karen are the most lovely couple ) with the idea of the school being near the San the multiple births and obsession with "baby races" in the Abbey books and the criticism of Joan's long-lost cousin Rykie for her hairstyle, clothes and make-up in much the same way as Joan Baker is criticised for hers are three obvious ones. There are other bits in EBD's books which may possibly have been influenced by EJO too, although it may just have been that they had an interest in similar things - the reference to Camp Fire (in Wins the Trick) which is something covered in several EJO books, mentioning that Richenda Fry was a Quaker (unusual for EBD, who seems to think that everyone is either a Catholic or an Anglican!), and some rather "interesting" ideas on how people in the Highlands dress and speak! I think one very big difference is that EJO's main series (the Abbey series) starts off based around a school but very soon moves to being based around a few Old Girls and their families, whereas the CS remains largely school-based. I wonder if that would have been different had it not been for the War, because in the later Tyrol books we see quite a lot of Madge and to a lesser extent Gisela at home, and we also see everyone going to Bernhilda's wedding, and Old Girls turning up with their husbands and children in tow.

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I, too, prefer EJO's Swiss and Sussex books to the Abbey ones. The Sussex books because I know a lot of the places - indeed, Woodend School is modelled on a real-life School of Gardening that was based in my parents' village before World War II, although I don't think they burnt it down!

Author:	trig [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I'm currently reading From Island to Abbey (GGBP) and it's a really fascinating link between most of EJO's books. Apparently there was "some coldness between EJO and EBD" because EJO set some books in the Swiss alps connected to a sanatorium early on in the 20s and felt, quite naturally, that EBD pinched her idea. EJO's Swiss books read more naturally because she had clearly visited the area and her local knowledge in all books is pretty impressive. EBD's Swiss books could be easily set anywhere with snow and a guide book - the expedition scenes are clearly culled in their entirity from Baedecker or the like. However, EJO's books have dated rather worse than EBD's mainly because of the attitudes. EBD was often ahead of her time with regard to religion, class etc, but EJO's later books, in particular the retrospectives, grate on me in their portrayal of working class people and the like.

Author:	Mel [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I've read a handful of the Abbeys and would say that EBD beats EJO into a cocked hat in terms of creating a believable world. I find that her characterisations and descriptive writing are far better and even Jem and Jack seem well-rounded characters compared with EJO's men who remind me of those men on old knitting patterns, rugged, pipe-smokers all. I can imagine that the series factor would hook me into them, but really, so little actually happens - a whole chapter recounts the return of a character. The women seem to have stuck at a mental of about 15 and don't get me started on the names! (Dammy-Marry, Mary-Dorothy etc) and the babies! and the titled ladies!

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Girls Own: EBD and EJO http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6595

Author:	Abi [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I've read a reasonable number of the Abbey books, but none of the others. I think one of the things EJO does beautifully is evoking the spirit of the folk movement. The earlier books in particular I think have a real freedom and light to them. It's a shame that the later ones get so bogged down in simply bringing more and more people into the family - I feel that they lose some of the spontenaity. Interesting point, Alison, about the Abbey books moving away from school - I don't think it works so well. Also, however irritating we find people like Mary-Lou, she and others are strong leading characters to follow on from Joey and her friends, and EJO never found someone who could effectively follow Jen.

Author:	JayB [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I read the CS as a child, from the age of about eight. I didn't come to EJO until I was an adult. I can only assume my local children's library didn't have them, as I can't imagine I could have overlooked so many books by the same author. Many of EJO's Abbey books of course aren't children's books, focusing as they do on girls in their late teens and early twenties, whereas EBD's books are much more aimed at girls in the early teens. I do think EBD has stood the test of time better. But then she was half a generation younger than EJO and they started their writing careers either side of the watershed of the First World War. 1920s girls stories overall are much more modern in feel than those from before 1914. I do like some of EJO's early, non Abbey books. She has some very nice boy-girl friendships, which is an area EBD never really explored, and is very good at creating a sense of place. I think Girls of the Hamlet Club is lovely, both as a girls' story and as a picture of life in the Chilterns at the time. I think EBD's school setting is much more effective as a series background than the Abbey. We do criticise EBD for running out of ideas in the later books, but I think EJO is far more repetitive, with one new girl after another coming to the Abbey and being nearly killed by the twins then being helped by the Abbey crowd to solve whatever personal or career problems she has. They do all blur together rather, whereas EBD was still creating distinctive characters right up to Two Sams. One difference between the two for me is that while I sometimes find Joey and Mary Lou annoying, I never want to shake or slap them, as I do Joy and Rosamund at times!

Author:	mohini [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I read both EDB and EJO though cannot remember which I read first. But I love EJO. There is a dreamy, fairy tale like sense while reading EJO. Everyone is good , beautiful, nice . Nothing bad happens or if it happens like death, it is skimmed very lightly. I loved Hamlet club and find Cicely was a well drawn character. I wish she featured in more books. As I love both series, I cannot compare them as I feel comparing them is like comparing say different types of chocolates (I adore chocolates). EJO books are more towards description of various folk dances and their effect on the characters. While EDB does mention these dances but she focuses more on her character's character. EJO wants to tell about Camp Fire and badges in details and EDB uses these as a plot in her books. As a child I never thought about why and how about the books .But now after CBB (Which makes me think) I feel as if EJO was flooded with ideas about different characters and so she introduced so many of them. And she found that some of them became her favorite and hence she connected them some how. And like EDB she also got confused. Take for example Rachel Damaris's sister. In Damaris dances she is shown as an emotionally weak and spineless person and then she suddenly grows up and becomes mature in the later books. That is why I feel it has a dreamy sense anything can happen. But it leaves a good feeling. Like you get when you snuggle down under warm blanket on a winter morning knowing you can lie and read a good book and there are no pending chores. EDB books are more alive where activity is going on. As she describes, crisp no nonsense wide awake. Sorry for the essay. But I love EJO and EDB books.

Author:	MJKB [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Our boarding school library was full of EJO books, but no EBD's. I have to say I saw no merit at all in the Abbey series and was bored by them. I verily believe they put me off folk dancing for life. EBD rocks!

Author:	Alison H [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Mel wrote: and don't get me started on the names! (Dammy-Marry, Mary-Dorothy etc) I quite like "Mary-Dorothy", but the one that gets me is when Mary-Dorothy's sister adopts the pseudonym "Madame Biddy Bidet". It sounds like something out of a Carry On film .

Author:	Jenefer [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I read some Abbey books as a teenager but did not enjoy them. I thought the Abbey was a school and could not understand why there were no school scenes in the books. Instead it seemed to be people talking about May Queens past and present. At least with EBD, there is an explanation in each book about the CS. It was not until I read the Abbey page on Wikipedia some years ago that I understood what the books were about. I agree with MJKB. EBD rocks.

Author:	JennieP [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Madame Biddy Bidet! Splutters Can I say in defence of my potty brain - as opposed to potty mouth - that I am currently Abroad (deliberate ironic caps) and they are everywhere!?

Author:	abbeybufo [ Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
There has been quite some discussion within the EJO Society as to whether EJO really knew what she was writing when she let Biddy pick that nom-de-guerre. It is used when Biddy doesn't want to disclose her married name, and she chooses a name that is as similar to her own as possible, to tell the people she's staying with. But anyone who can have a character called Lavinia, who, in a discussion about the 'short' for her name - Vinny for preference - can say: Quote: "The boys call me Lav. I hates it," and Lavinia flushed resentfully. (Schoolgirl Jen at the Abbey) - and I still don't know if that is deliberate - can surely use Bidet! I love EJO and most of her books - yes there are some bad ones, mainly the fill-ins, but Biddy's Secret, where this howler comes from, is otherwise one of her best - but there are times when you just don't know if it's innocence or 'schoolboy-level' humour she's displaying

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Dare I ask what a 'Bidet' might be? (Sorry if that is horrible naive, but last week I made my mum laugh by calmly asking if 'LED' wasn't also a slang name for a drug, so naive I be!)

Author:	Emma A [ Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
A bidet is a kind of low slung basin for washing one's privates after going to the lav... My parents have one in their main bathroom but it's been used only very infrequently!

Author:	Abi [ Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
We had one in our rather revolting ex-council student house, for some reason .

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Aah, thankyou!

Author:	hac61 [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
ChubbyMonkey wrote: Dare I ask what a 'Bidet' might be? (Sorry if that is horrible naive, but last week I made my mum laugh by calmly asking if 'LED' wasn't also a slang name for a drug, so naive I be!) It's a sort of toilet bowl that one uses for cleansing oneself in that area of the anatomy. Nowadays you can get ones that shower you and then blow-dry you afterwards! hac

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I spend a lot of time in the Gulf, and there all loos come with a kind of handheld shower attachment for ablutions - toilet paper is considered a disgusting, unhygienic Western fad. The snag is that when its 50 degrees or so outside, the water that comes through the shower-attachment (which is technically 'cold' water from a storage tank, often on the roof) can be rather hotter than one's sensitive regions would like. I wonder whether the CS in its various incarnations would have had bidets as standard? Presumably not in the original Chalet or in any of its UK homes, but what about their brief period at Der Edel Ritter, and the Swiss hotel they take over on the Gornetz Platz...? Might those buildings have had them in situ? Not that EBD would have felt able to incude jolly scenes where the Continental girls laugh at the British ones for wondering what they are, but it would be funny to think of... The bit in Chalet where Amy Stevens (is it her?) powders the sinks with sherbet would be quite a bit funner if she'd done the bidets into the bargain... Mind you, the only two times I can think of in the entire series that involve someone implicitly needing or going to the loo are Len taking the younger Maynards off to make them 'comfortable' during one of the rests in the minibus journey to the Tiernsee, and whichever unfortunate Junior it is who possibly needs the loo when they all get locked in because someone put graphite on the lock... Even when I was a firstime CS reader I did find myself wondering how they managed on the various occasions where they were trapped in a herdsman's hut/barn/broken down coach etc.

Author:	Squirrel [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Personally I enjoy both EBD and EJO - I met the former one earlier, through my Mum, but after that many of our visits to my Gran's house (a car journey away of about an hour or longer) were characterised by the adults talking, my brother doing his own thing, and my reading her EJO books - mostly abbey girls. Since that point I've loved them for different reasons - though if I'm honest, I probably reread EJO more often than EBD - the latter of which has a stronger grip on my sense of humour. If I'm really needing cheered up an EBD reread is one of the best ways to kick start me. In other words, I couldn't choose between the two, though I like them both for different purposes. And I can Still remember my frustration when reading 'at home' and finding I apparently 'skipped' huge sections of text without realising why. It was only years later I realised that the Childrens Press editions of that had obviously cut lots of the bits which I enjoyed from the text. Right up until that point I just thought there were times when I was a lazy reader - even when I tried to make myself go carefully so that I wouldn't miss such bits!!!

Author:	KathrynW [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I read all the EJO transcripts a couple of years ago when I was very quiet at work. To be honest, I don't have a great desire to re-read them although I did quite enjoy them. Although they are more 'grown up' than EBD is, I also find them strangely child-like. I know the characters are mainly adults but there don't seem to be that many 'proper' adults (with some obvious exceptions of course) which makes it feel almost like some sort of secret world. A bit like, and this is a bad example but my brain isn't really working today, EB's 'The Secret Island'. I think maybe it's something to do with approaching them as an adult as I had never even heard of EJO until I joined the CBB/GO! The names also drive me a bit bonkers too.

Author:	Emma A [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I've only read a few of EJO's books, and they're the early ones: even the latest of the books I've read (well, recently enough to remember) is only set a few years at most after the end of WW1. At that time, the Chalet School hadn't even started. As a result, Miss Macey's school and her pupils seem dated and rather old-fashioned. Some of her characters are excellent, and I enjoy reading Cicely's sarcastic replies to the grandees of the school, when she first arrives, and her impatience and impulsiveness are very attractive. I did also like the natural way EJO described the romances in The Abbey Girls Go Back To School, and Cicely's puzzlement and anger with Dick Everett, as well as her very real feeling for him. I think EBD must have been influenced by EJO, since the early (and not so early) Chalet School displays characteristics that are also seen in EJO's Abbey series. Names are similar, Miss Macey's "sportiness" compares with that of Madge's (though the latter is presumably younger), and her willingness to let classes go hang while more important explorations take place is rather amusing. EJO also had the idea of a school in Switzerland (and eminent doctors) before EBD took the Chalet School to Austria, too. I think EJO was more willing to consider the idea of boy-girl relationships than EBD. I haven't read any of EJO's Swiss books, but Karen and Tazy appear in TAGGBTS, and mention boys quite specifically: Karen, though still only sixteen, is mentioned to have a special friendship with Rennie that Tazy reckons will eventually lead to marriage. I suppose that even the Abbey books don't have the same continuity as the Chalet School - Miss Macey's school doesn't even have a name, for example - and we get far fewer details of lessons or staff than we do in the Chalet School. It's the girls' interactions and activities outside school which are important in EJO's books, whereas EBD isn't quite so interested in showing us that, Plus, of course, Miss Macey's is predominantly a day school, and there's not nearly so much school spirit about the place, much to Cicely's regret and disapproval. In The Girls of the Abbey School, I did enjoy Della's reformation, and Dick's gradual realisation that it's better to be reliable and decent than impulsive and untrustworthy: a lesson which is well-described by EJO, I think, and is perhaps more realistic than some of EBD's reformations (though it still comes about via an accident). They're the most obnoxious brats, though, when they first appear, even worse than the Mystic M, so that I could hardly bear to read about them!

Author:	abbeybufo [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
The Abbey is almost a character in its own right in EJO's series - and takes the place of the CS in EBD's, I think. The standards taken or inferred from a monastic ideal are behind the actions of the main characters, whereas EBD makes the School [and its headmistresses] the touchstone. You cannot really call the Abbey Series school series at all - indeed Miss Macey's school fades into the background for some 8 years, between Maidlin leaving the school [in Abbey Girls at Home set in 1924, published in 1929], and Jansy first going to it [in Two Joans at the Abbey set in 1932, pub 1945]. Yes, EJO did portray other schools; notably, when comparisons are made with EBD, the two [one boys, one girls] in Switzerland near the 'Great Sanatorium'. So one could argue that she had the idea first, but she did not return to the schools after 1927 - and even then the books published in 1926 [Troubles of Tazy] and 1927 [Patience and her Problems] were set near the school and san, but dealt with the romances of the characters who had been at those schools. I suspect once the CS series got going she didn't feel the need to follow that line again, and apart from Camp Mystery [1932], which is set retrospectively on a summer camp that the Swiss Schools are holding on Lake Annecy, although part of the story had appeared in an Annual earlier, she left the School/San field clear for EBD from then on. I wonder what she thought when EBD brought her school to Wales - another setting for several of EJO's books, though she only put one school there - near Bala Lake in North Wales - for the Torment Series, published during WWI.

Author:	trig [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I've only recently become an avid Abbey collector, and still have only about a dozen books due to their comparative scarcity, so can't speak as at all expert. However, I do think EBD bears the new reader in mind rather better than EJO. It might be annoying to have the whole CS story retold ad infinitum each book but it's pretty useful if that's your first book. My first Abbey book was AG play up and the multitude of characters which I was supposed to know all about already almost put me off for life. However, now I know about all the interlinks between EJO's books they're more desirable than ever! It's interesting to read a book where major characters from one group of books are minor ones, like in TAGGBTS. I've also noticed through reading the books out of sequence and out of publishing order too, how EJO's characterisation changes. I've always seen Joy as a rather negative character, but having read Abbey Girls for the first time yesterday, she emerges as a much more sympathetic character - and one I can easily relate to! It's interesting that EJO allowed Joy to keep most of her faults, though toned down, throughout the series, whereas EBD air-brushed them out of such major characters as Joey and MaryLou. (Perhaps there's some comparison between Grizel and Joy character-wise?)

Author:	JB [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Trig wrote: Quote: However, I do think EBD bears the new reader in mind rather better than EJO. The first AG book I read was At Home. I was as confused as Betty Maclean by all the Lady Marchwoods in the first chapter. I'm not a Joy fan. EJO tells us how attractive she is, despite her faults, and how much charm she has, but I can't see it. I wonder how flawed EJO felt her to be. Did she expect us to see Joy's faults? Or did she believe that Joy really could charm everyone?

Author:	Abi [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
abbeybufo wrote: The Abbey is almost a character in its own right in EJO's series - and takes the place of the CS in EBD's, I think. I'd never thought of it in just that way before, but there are definitely parallels - the way each institution (for want of a better word) seems to exemplify what the spirit and message of the books is supposed to be. I've just read Maidlin Bears the Torch (courtesy of GGBP!) where there's quite a lot of talk about this spirit and what it means. Although it can sometimes feel a bit cloying, the original idea, that the girls welcome people and give them refuge, is valuable one - one that's often neglected in the modern world. And of course, it's a little similar to Joey's habit of adopting every stray she comes across. Quote: The first AG book I read was At Home. I was as confused as Betty Maclean by all the Lady Marchwoods in the first chapter. Me too, especially as it was the Children's Press edition I read! I actually really like Joy - she's one of the most realistic characters in that she doesn't just suddenly reform. She improves, and then she forgets a little of what inspired that and goes back, then something else happens and she makes another huge effort. She's obviously a genuinely caring person as she's always really guilty when she realises she's hurt someone. It's just that it generally takes someone else to point out to her what she's done. At least she isn't quite so maddeningly perfect as Joan and Jen!

Author:	abbeybufo [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
AG At Home is certainly not the best one to read first - or even 2nd or 3rd! It - or the full version of it - is key to the series in many ways, but if you don't know the characters when you come to it, it must be very puzzling. I'm not sure if any of the CS titles is as puzzling if you haven't read any before, and of course EBD was [almost tediously ] meticulous in putting footnotes referring you back to the book when/where something happened, whereas although EJO often refers to prior events, you don't necessarily know exactly where they featured. I knew the outline of the story of The Abbey Girls, for instance, from reading Girls of the Abbey School and several others from when I first was given a dozen or so at the age of 10 or 11, but I didn't get to read the actual book, and see the full story, until after I began collecting them again as an adult.

Author:	Kadi [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I've only read a few EJOs. The first one I read was 'Abbey Girls Again' which I found in the Op shop I was working in. It is the only Abbey book I've read and I quite enjoyed it. I had no idea about the history of the characters from earlier books but that didn't detract from my enjoyment of the book. The other EJOs I've read are transcripts of her early books from before the Abbey series. I am reading them in publication order. I have liked the books I have read so far and EJO has been added to my list of favourite authors on LibraryThing.

Author:	abbeybufo [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
AG Again is quite a good one to get into the series with - it starts with new characters that you don't already know, and as they meet the 'established' main characters you learn about them as well - like EBD bringing a new girl into the school and them learning all about Joey or OOAO Sadly AGA is also one of the 4 titles that were very badly abridged for the Children's Press edition [as indeed was AG at Home], so you don't get anything like the full story

Author:	Kadi [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
abbeybufo wrote: Sadly AGA is also one of the 4 titles that were very badly abridged for the Children's Press edition [as indeed was AG at Home], so you don't get anything like the full story Oh dear! I think it may have been the Children's Press edition I read.

Author:	Squirrel [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
Mmmm - I recently started a reread of my Collins version of Abbey Girls At Home. I have both that and a Children's Press edition - and I used to get very annoyed with myself for 'sloppy reading' and missing out chunks of text I liked on occasion. It was only as I grew older that I realised that how well I was reading depended on the version of the book I was using... I must have grown very annoyed one day, cause I appear to have starred, in pencil, all the bits which the Childrens press cut out of it... It's amazing how many times on a page I have put a set of stars - sometimes for just a sentence, or part of it, and sometimes for whole paragraphs. Sadly, I've been unable to read the other three badly cut ones in full. I hope that I shall be able to change that fact in the future...

Author:	violawood [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
I've only read EJO as an adult - I have about 8 or 10 of the Abbeys and have enjoyed them. They do vary a lot, I think - the later written ones do seem to be written for a younger age range. I prefer the earlier ones and particularly liked Go Back To School - I was rather disappointed when the girls go off folk dancing just a couple of books later - Back To School paints such a positive picture and I liked Miss Newcastle. I love the late night angst-and-cocoa parties, though. Moral issues are rather more black-and-white in EBD (and she's much more an 'early to bed, early to rise-er and, as a teacher, likes to wear the girls out during the day to circumvent midnights and the like ) and I'm rather given to agonising over things myself, so I really liked those parts I'm not mad keen on Joy - prefer Jen, Joan (and she disappears so early) the Pixie, Mary and Ann.

Author:	Emma A [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
violawood wrote: I've only read EJO as an adult - I have about 8 or 10 of the Abbeys and have enjoyed them. They do vary a lot, I think - the later written ones do seem to be written for a younger age range. I prefer the earlier ones and particularly liked Go Back To School - I was rather disappointed when the girls go off folk dancing just a couple of books later - Back To School paints such a positive picture and I liked Miss Newcastle... Me too (especially Miss Newcastle - was she a portrait of anyone real?). I can't believe they go off folk dancing, though! It's such an important part of the first few books - the Hamlet Club, and the shared passion and recreation of the girls featured. Does this mirror any disillusionment EJO had with the folk dancing movement?

Author:	abbeybufo [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Girls Own: EBD and EJO
'Miss Newcastle' was Catherine Orde, whom EJO had met at the Vacation School in Cheltenham in 1920. The Abbey Girls don't exactly 'go off' folk dancing - they find that life gets a bit full of other things like marriage and babies, so no longer give it first place in their lives. Once the second generation gets going, the folk dancing comes more to the fore again. I think EJO's move to Sussex took her out of the circle of dancers that she was friendly with in London; it may have been as simple as that in terms of no longer portraying 'Madam' and 'The Pixie' - who were also real people, I've linked their names to the articles about them on the Abbey Chronicle site - as characters in the books. There is some speculation that they hadn't liked the way they were depicted. And although she always shows Cecil Sharp as a 'kindly' figure, if a martinet, there were many people in the EFDS disagreeing with him at about the same time, and the EFDS - as has happened several times since - was perilously close to breaking up.