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Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6710

Author:  JB [ Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Antonia Forest was born in 1915 and died in 2003. She wrote 13 books, 10 school and holiday titles about the Marlow family, 2 historical Marlow titles and one standalone book, The Thursday Kidnapping. Forest’s four school stories were published as Puffin paperbacks in the 1970s and remained in print until the 1990s. Her other titles were hard to find until they were reprinted by GGB.

Her first book was Autumn Term, published in 1948 and her last book Run Away Home in 1982. Each of the Marlow stories is set in the time the book was written although they take place over a period of 2½ years in the characters’ lives, ie in Autumn Term, the Marlows have been bombed out of their London House while in The Attic Term (published in 1976), there is a storyline about drugs. In fictional terms, the latter takes place two years after the former

School stories focus on the twins, Nicola and Lawrie (both girls) who are the youngest of the family and whose career comes off to an inauspicious start when they’re placed in the lowly Third Remove and not IIIA, like the rest of their family.

At the beginning of the series, all five daughters attend Kingscote boarding school, although a couple leave during the course of the series; the elder son is in the Navy and the youngest at Dartmouth. Holidays centre around life at Trennels, a family house unexpectedly inherited by Commander Marlow in Falconer’s Lure.

Further information on Antonia Forest can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonia_Forest.

Have you read Antonia Forest’s books? What do you think of them? Do you read all the books or just the school stories?

How does Kingscote compare to the Chalet School? Do you sympathise with the characters? How do you feel about the staff?

Like EBD, Forest converted to Catholicism and religious faith is important to most of their characters. How do you feel about their different ways of approaching faith within their novels?

The Marlows are a long family, with 7 children including one set of twins. Would you prefer to be a Marlow or a Maynard? Why?

In the holiday/family stories we meet the Marlow brothers, Peter and Giles, and Patrick Merrick, a family friend. How well do you feel Forest draws her male characters, and their relationships with their sisters and female friends? How does this compare to EBD?

Please do join in with any further thoughts on Forest and EBD.


Sorry about the delay in posting this. There was a bit too much Real Life happening. :oops:

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I sometimes forget that Antonia Forest was only about 20 years younger than EBD: her books are just so much more modern and "real world" in tone.

I never feel that I "know" Kingscote as well as I know the CS, although that's probably inevitable given how much longer the CS series is than the Kingscote series, but it makes an interesting change for an author to focus on the younger end of the family, and show the problems Nicola and Lawrie face in following in the footsteps of elder sisters who were all leading lights in the school. It's an area that EBD never really tackles, even though it must have been an issue for e.g. Primula and Maeve.

I think the girls in general were much nicer at the CS, though!

Author:  Emma A [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Forest's Kingscote is a more realistic version of the fictional boarding school - there are girls who aren't likeable, who are charismatic but arrogant; teachers who are detached, or who have favourites and eccentricities; and prefects aren't the feared elder girls who are also loved and respected. Forest really subverts the genre in Autumn Term, I think, by making the twins immediate failures, has them kicked out of Guides, when it's the one thing they think they can do, and only has them triumph at the end, without any staff or prefect interference or help. One can't see that happening at the Chalet School! The pupils at Kingscote seem to have more free time which is unsupervised, and we see more of it than at the Chalet School. When teachers do appear, vengeance approaches: Miss Cromwell only has to stand on the terrace steps while her form are taking advantage of a student teacher to 'look' for Nicola, missing from a lesson, and they appear, sheepish and shame-faced. And there is indeed "blood for breakfast". Can you imagine even Miss Wilson saying something like that to her form?

Altogether I think that Forest's books (not merely the ones set at Kingscote) are more complicated, and deal with far different feelings and emotions than EBD's do. She acknowledges boy-girl friendship and the first stirrings of love (or is it?), jealousy, anger, fear and bravery, and knows that not everyone has high or noble motives. One can't imagine Jan Scott fitting well into the Chalet School, though the younger girls might find Miss Annersley a more approachable and sympathetic headmistress than Miss Keith.

I like the way she has characters discuss religion, specifically - not discussing God, or quoting from the Bible, or assuming that everyone has faith of some sort - but what it's like to be a Catholic, or Jewish, as opposed to being CofE, or non-committal. There's more acceptance in Forest that unfaith exists, and that a main character such as Nicola can be undecided or sceptical about religious matters. There are very few absolute rights and wrongs in Forest, but EBD always knows. I think it's why the latter's books are so comforting to read.

I also think Forest's male characters are well-drawn and interesting - Patrick and Peter, for example, share interests and get on very well, but are very different. Peter, particularly, is fascinating in what we know of him - he tries to assert a masculine authority, and often fails, his authority usurped by older sisters, Edwin, or Giles. I do like the holiday books, partly because of the male characters: Foley, for instance, is a fascinating study, but also unknowable. I also like that the danger is so real in The Marlows and the Traitor - you don't get that sense in EBD - you know things are going to turn out well.

The humour in Forest's books is often there, though is understated - I love the bit in End of Term where Mr Merrick calls the school to speak to Nicola, and a message comes to her that her "Member of Parliament wants to speak to" her. EBD often consciously writes "funny scenes", some of which are, others which aren't.

As to whether I'd have preferred to go to either school - well, I suspect that Kingscote is closer to what a boarding school would really have been like, though the Chalet School would have been nicer. Despite the Chalet School's insistence on bringing up girls to be strong women, not spineless jellyfish, I suspect that the Kingscote girls, seldom pushed or prevailed upon to be better people (except academically), might have been more successful (if possibly less happy).

Sorry for the essay!

Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I think Antonia Forest writes far more realistically than EBD does. And Kingscote, alas, is a far more realistic school than the Chalet School.

Having said that, I wrote my fic THE MARLOWS AT ST MILDREDS because I wanted to see how Nicola in particular and the twins in general would fare in a school that was far more tolerant of individual eccentricities than Kingscote. Other authors have, I know, had them be totally unsuccessful at the Chalet School....

Author:  Mel [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Antonia Forest's writing is far superior IMO to EBD, the characters more fleshed out and allowed to have flaws, even (and especially) the adults. They are very tightly plotted - which they should be as she spent years on each book! Not a very comfortable world at Kingscote/Trennels with no Jo to smooth paths and make things right, but fascinating. Her viewpoint changes very subtly from person to person, she can use irony and humour better than EBD and is not afraid to be subersive and mention the unmentionable - even the loo!
But she does have a few axes to grind about the post-Vatican 2 Church, intrusive Social Services etc. I would have loved to read an adult book by AF.

Author:  Pado [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I've only recently discovered Antonia Forest and am enjoying her books... but there's still something about the Chalet School, EBDisms and all.

Author:  mohini [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I have one Antonia Forest book and one in transcript.
The book did not appeal to me. It was alright.But it did not make me feel like searching or begging for the rest of the series.
I think the book is End of the term and I am seriously thinking of disposing it of if I get a good offer.
I like EDB better.

Author:  Catrin [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I always feel like I've been taken to another world when I read AF. I have to read the whole book in one sitting otherwise I'm crabby and cross until I've finished it - they are so absorbing and very complete. Peter's Room, especially, has a sort of old magic about it.

I could imagine bumping in to lots of the Marlowes in my real world (I have some Lawrie-like tendencies that I try and forget about). They are much better as teen-agers than CS girls, though to some extent that's because the teenager hadn't really been invented when the CS was being written. (Or at least EBD hadn't caught up). The sadness of the Nicola-Ginty-Patrick situation always gets to me.

I also like the way that AF seems to accept her own limitations - she was a very slow writer, so her books move through time but the characters don't age. That's more of the black magic bit - for instance in Ready-Made-Family, they take a ride on a railway, and in Run-Away-Home they take a walk on the footpath which runs where the railway did many years ago. Who else would ever think to write that?

I enjoyed the Shakespeare books much more than EBD's historical novels, but I suspect that EBD's work was much more authentic.

I would rather be a Marlowe than a Maynard - I don't trust the shadowy characters of Steve and Charles, and wouldn't be too keen on random strangers constantly moving in; plus, the whole pony and hawking bits sound great. And no Reg either!

Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Mel wrote:
Antonia Forest's writing is far superior IMO to EBD, the characters more fleshed out and allowed to have flaws, even (and especially) the adults. They are very tightly plotted - which they should be as she spent years on each book! Not a very comfortable world at Kingscote/Trennels with no Jo to smooth paths and make things right, but fascinating.


Yes, absolutely to all of this. AF's books are about children, but have an absolutely adult sophistication in their interest in individual and group behaviour, sibling relationships and friendships, belief systems, moral and emotional grey areas. They also expect quite a bit more of the reader than EBD's do - their range of cultural reference is huge, for one thing - and they show every sign of the long periods AF spent writing each book, compared to EBD, who was so prolific, sometimes with several novels coming out in the same year.

AF is also not particularly interested in Kingscote in itself, the way EBD clearly adores her own creation. EBD loves to repeat school legends, rules and customs as themselves interesting from book to book, but AF only shows Kingscote's functioning as it impacts on her characters - like we only know anything about Guides or shopping trips or rules on breaking bounds when they are immediately relevant to a plot. Also, it's not at all idealised the way the CS is. There's no 'true Kingscote girl'.

Authority figures are ineffective, arbitrary or fallible, there is bullying, favouritism etc. (I mean, there is bullying and favouritism in the CS, too, only EBD doesn't seem to realise that's what she's portraying in Jack Lambert or the cover-up of Margot's book-end hurling etc!) Even the Marlows, the family of talented, charismatic golden girls at the centre of the series - the Maynard equivalent in some ways - are not universally liked, or exempt from including a bad Head Girl among their number. And, far from being Jack and Joey, their parents are either literally or metaphorically absent (Navy father, distant, rather distracted mother) from even the scenes set at home.

I'd also agree they are quite the reverse, in many ways, of a comfort read (in the sense that the CS is a comfort read for many of us) - AF writes terribly well about fear and moral discomfort and the less comfortable sides of an individual existing within a group situation, whether it's family or school.

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I've only read 3 Antonia Forest's as I only discovered her as an author a few years ago (quite possibly after a cross-over drabble on here though I can't now remember who by, as it was a while a ago now as I'd definitely read Autumn Term by the time I read Mrs Redboots' drabble (which was fantastic by the way), so it may have been an unfinished one), but I would like to continue reading the series, assuming I can get hold of them at some stage.

I'd agree with all the above, really- AF's world is far more complex than EBD's and is the richer for it IMO but that complexity makes it disturbing at times as well. I feel as though she writes about children and from the perspective of children, which makes her books children's books, but she doesn't simplify characters' responses to things or try to convey messages to children in the way that many children's authors do. In a way I feel as though she isn't specifically a children's author, more an author who happens to write about children in a way that children can read. I think that with EBD no matter what the topic of conversation, you can usually (not always, but usually) tell what she wants her readers to think and who she wants them to sympathise with. I find that a lot more problematic in AF. I've just finished reading Peter's Room and in some of the conversations between the syblings about the Brontes in particular, I couldn't quite tell whose opinion I was "supposed" to approve of. Which is quite unusual in a children's books and in the GO genre in general, I think. It makes her world and her characters more real because of their flaws (which are allowed to remain, and not be cured after one term at school), and because it means that nothing is black and white.

The other thing I find with AF is how vividly different the characters are, and how much we get to see from the different viewpoints. Yes, the majority is seen from Nicola's point of view, but in Peter's Room you're quite clear on what each of the characters involved in the game thinks of the situation. That's not something you find as much in EBD, who in similar situation would, I think, be more likely to examine the reactions of one or two of the ring-leaders, have a few differing opinions voiced, and then take it as read that the others think much the same. I think a lot of that is due to the fact that EBD in that situation would have a whole school to think about, rather than one family and a few hangers-on, but it's an interesting contrast. The other thing is of course that the children's game is never caught on to by adults. Something taking up so much of their time *would* be seen and acknowledged by adults in EBD's world, even if they decided to just keep an eye on things and not interfere! Certainly, someone would have made more of an effort to speak to Nicola, who was obviously slightly out on a limb.

In general as well I think there's a strong central point to the CS, (which is lovely when you see how close everyone is and how they all pull together for the sake of the school/ the form, the sick pupil etc) that seems to be missing in what I've read so far from AF. This makes her work more realistic in many ways, but definitely less rosy-childhood-glow comforting. The end of every CS book is happy and satisfying. That can't be said in quite the same way of AF's books, I don't think.

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Sunglass wrote:
Mel wrote:
Antonia Forest's writing is far superior IMO to EBD, the characters more fleshed out and allowed to have flaws, even (and especially) the adults. They are very tightly plotted - which they should be as she spent years on each book! Not a very comfortable world at Kingscote/Trennels with no Jo to smooth paths and make things right, but fascinating.


Antonio Forest's depiction of Kingscote is superior because it reflects the adolescent world so more more realistically than does the CS. Her characterisation is superb. I read two of the books as a child and didn't like the characters, they chilled me. I know I'd never have survived emotionally in fact if I was one of the unchosen in a class that contained the likes of Miranda and Tim. As far the callous treatment of Marie Dodd, it sends a shiver down my spine. It is such a different world to the warmth of the CS.

Actually, as an Irish child, I identified far more with that warmth than I did with the cold, analytical Kingscote girls. In fact, out of ignorance I'm afraid, I associated the latter with English upper middle class types.

Author:  JB [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Autumn Term was the first Marlows story I read (when I was 9 or so) and I still find the court of honour difficult to read. Are there any other school stories where good doesn't triumph and the heroines aren't restored to their rightful place?

Author:  MJKB [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I agree that AF is an excellent writer and certainly the older EBD does not compare favourably in respect of plot and character analysis. Having said that, some of the early EBDs are as well written in their own, albeit different way. And JO is a beautifully written book with a wonderful array of characters. There's humour and pathos, some beautiful descriptions and sympathic and memorable characters, and so it is, in its own way, something of a classic. I think!

Author:  Matthew [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

JB wrote:
Autumn Term was the first Marlows story I read (when I was 9 or so) and I still find the court of honour difficult to read. Are there any other school stories where good doesn't triumph and the heroines aren't restored to their rightful place?


I think that exactly hits the nail on the head of why I didn't like Autumn Term and why I haven't attempted to find any further Antonia Forest. One of the reasons why I love to read children's books of all types is that in the end good always triumphs and wrong doers are punished. For that whole principle to be swept aside was extremely difficult for me to accept and impossible for me to enjoy. And I also strongly disliked Kingscote as a school.

In many ways it was a shame because I liked the Marlows and found the idea of Nicola and Lawrie starting off in the third remove to be an interesting storyline. At a school that was more idyllic and less realistic I think I would have really enjoyed reading about both Nicola and Lawrie. Especially as they had far more realistic strengths and weaknesses than any characters I had read in a school story before. There's no doubt in my mind that the Chalet School would have had it's work cut out trying to reform them! And that they would have made their mark at the Chalet School without ever turning into real chalet girls!

Author:  Kadi [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

The only Antonia Forest I've read is a transcript of 'The Marlows and the Traitor'. I find that it isn't enough for me to form a firm opinion about her as an author and the particular book doesn't give enough info about Kingscote. However, going by some of the other comments here it does sound a lot more realistic than the CS.

I liked the way the characters were portrayed. They seemed more real than EBDs characters. I found Ginty especially intriguing.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

MJKB wrote:
I know I'd never have survived emotionally in fact if I was one of the unchosen in a class that contained the likes of Miranda and Tim. As far the callous treatment of Marie Dodd, it sends a shiver down my spine. It is such a different world to the warmth of the CS.


I know what you mean, but I'm not sure I'd agree that the CS version of 'chosen' or significant girls vs insignificant followers or marginal girls is necessarily that much cosier, just less coolly analysed by EBD.

After all, along with the CS rhetoric of inclusivity, you do get an evident pecking order all through the series, where certain golden girls and cliques in practice matter far more than their satellites, like Joey, like Mary-Lou and her Gang and Jack Lambert and hers leading everyone else 'by the nose' - and there are also outcasts who are evidently miserable or not entirely accepted, like Odette Mercier or Joan Baker. EBD doesn't seem to see that as problematic, though, and she certainly never shows any of her central leaders having qualms about some 'follower's' treatment, the way we see Nicola unwillingly realising that even 'grubby wet drips' like Marie Dobson have feelings too, same as she does. And Marie isn't an attractive character, but AF does write her sympathetically, like the analysis of why she lies at the Court of Honour, or her clumsy attempts to make up with the twins.

I think AF is trying to conduct an analysis of pecking orders and popularity, and why some people develop power in certain group situations, and some don't, rather than straightforwardly endorsing that pattern - that seems to me to be clear from the inclusion of a perspective from which the golden Marlows are viewed as somewhat self-satisfied and over-prominent within school affairs. EBD doesn't give us that perspective on the Maynards, ever, which in some ways I find more chilling - there's no position from which you can dissent!

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

What's the name of the girl who dies - is that Marie? I find the part where some of the girls say it would be wrong for the form to send her parents a letter saying what a nice person she was and how much she'll be missed etc really awful. Surely most people would be upset by the death of a classmate, even one they weren't particularly friendly with, and would be prepared to write something nice about her for the sake of trying to comfort her grieving family?

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Yes, it's Marie Dobson, and I agree, that scene is unpleasant, but I think entirely deliberately so. It's the kind of discomfort I think AF writes really well.

It's significant, surely, that Nicola finds out separately about Marie's death from a mistress, and when she gets back to school, is genuinely (if uncomfortably) shaken by the death of someone she never liked and had almost forgotten about, as Marie had been absent for months due to illness - and for what it's worth, I agree with the uncomfortable truth that the sudden death of someone you dislike can both be painful and reveal nasty truths about you to yourself. Nicola, who is nothing if not sensitive and morally honest, even if not always in entirely easy ways, feels both distanced from the majority who are busy pretending Marie was everyone's best friend now that she's dead, and Miranda, Tim and Lawrie who are refusing that particular hypocrisy but (certainly in Miranda's case) behaving as though their own principled position of Disliking Marie And Not Going to Pretend Even Now is more important than telling her grieving parents a white lie in a sympathy letter. I think AF putting Nicola uncomfortably between those positions is intended to make us see the problem with both, when she says confusedly 'I'd rather feel properly sorry if I've got to.'

It's not a scene EBD would - or could - ever have written, but it does make one think about what would have happened in the (highly unlikely) scenario that an ongoing misfit like Joan Baker suddenly died after a year or two at the CS, without having become a 'true CS girl'? How would all those girls who never really liked or accepted her respond? I can't imagine, because the CS books just don't deal in that kind of grey area.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
How would all those girls who never really liked or accepted her respond? I can't imagine, because the CS books just don't deal in that kind of grey area.


I think it would largely depend on when the book was written. If it was in the early years - say if they'd heard of Thekla's disappearance during the war - I think EBD could have dealt with it very sensitively. But later on we get odd comments about how it was "for the best" which I think could have lead to a slightly skewed reaction to it!

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
How would all those girls who never really liked or accepted her respond? I can't imagine, because the CS books just don't deal in that kind of grey area.


I think it would largely depend on when the book was written. If it was in the early years - say if they'd heard of Thekla's disappearance during the war - I think EBD could have dealt with it very sensitively. But later on we get odd comments about how it was "for the best" which I think could have lead to a slightly skewed reaction to it!


You're probably right there. I take Cosimo's Jackal's point, though, in the sense that some CS deaths are oddly greeted. The finding out about Marie Dobson death is supposed to be an uncomfortable experience, and throws her former classmates into a heap from a combination of fear, guilt and other feelings, with Nicola being almost equally appalled by both Lawrie and co's hard-heartedness, and the vaguely hypocritical hand-wringing of some of the others. The reader gets a range of positions from which to consider a sudden, inglorious death - doesn't Marie die getting up to change TV channels because her heart was weakened by her illness?

But as Chubbymonkey says, some of those fatalistic 'for the best' responses to various offstage CS deaths, whether they're Doris Trelawney or the motorist in the crash Nina Rutherford is in, aren't supposed to make us uncomfortable - they seem to have full authorial sanction and are the 'right' response. I personally find them quite chilling, though. I recognise EBD probably intended them in part as a bowing to God's will, but there actually aren't really any references to God's will, more to individual human opinions that this death was for the best. It seems fairly inhuman and dismissive - even arrogant - for someone to confidently pronounce, to general agreement, that poor Doris's death was a blessing in disguise for Mary-Lou.

Author:  JS [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I liked Antonia Forest's books as a child - they certainly seemed more contemporary than the CS (which they probably were, given that I'd be reading them in the late 70s!) although re-reading Autumn Term recently, the time difference didn't seem too great (presumably because the gap in years between them is smaller now we're at a greater distance in 2009, if you know what I mean?)

On re-reading Autumn Term, I definitely wanted to re-read the others, but was quite shocked at the prices. Would love any transcripts that might be around (pending my expected win on the lottery/premium bonds :D )

I loved Mrs Redboots' Marlow drabble, by the way - would recommend it if anyone hasn't found it already. I could really see it happening and think that the CS would have suited them better than Kingscote.

I also liked the different personalities of the Marlow girls - and the idea that people were rarely entirely good, or bad, but were human.

Can't really say much more as it's so long since I read any bar Autumn Term - I'm not attracted by the idea of the historical ones, by the way, so haven't bought the recent GGBs. I wish they'd reprint the others, however.

Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I know quite a few people aren't attracted by AF's historical ones (actually, it's just one novel, as written, but it was so long her publishers published it as two) - but they are every bit as satisfyingly written as the contemporary ones. And not so different - the main character, Nicholas, is essentially a male Elizabethan Nicola (who starts off the action living at Trennels) and there are other characters who recognisably contain elements of Lawrie, Tim, Rowan. Shakespeare is a fascinating character (with elements of Jan Scott, I always think). And if you like the way AF writes plays in the school stories or Peter's Room, then you'll really like the way she writes about the Elizabethan theatre and boy actors.

Author:  Abi [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I'm just on the penultimate chapter of Player's Boy, which I'm really enjoying, though I don't normally read historical fiction. Nicholas is uncannily similar to Nicola and there are similarities in language - you'd definitely know it was Antonia Forest.

(Not on here, but on Middles Common Room, is truly the most amazing AF drabble, here.)

Author:  Miss Di [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I love AF. She wrote such real characters and the interactions between them are so brilliantly done. She writes for readers - so many casual references to other books, poetry, music - with the expectation that her readers will either know or will Run And Find Out.

EBD is comfort food. I love her but she doesn't challenge me.

Author:  Sarah_G-G [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Abi wrote:
I'm just on the penultimate chapter of Player's Boy, which I'm really enjoying, though I don't normally read historical fiction. Nicholas is uncannily similar to Nicola and there are similarities in language - you'd definitely know it was Antonia Forest.

(Not on here, but on Middles Common Room, is truly the most amazing AF drabble, here.)



Ah, having followed this link earlier I would strongly agree with the recommendation but thought I'd add a quick word of warning: Don't follow the link and start reading when you're having a "quick 10 minute break" at work! :oops: :roll: I may not have got a lot of work done this morning...

Author:  andi [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Seconding both the recommendation and the warning! I stayed up till all hours last night reading that drabble...I'm glad I only found it once it was complete; I'm not sure I could have coped with the suspense if I'd been reading it in instalments! Poor Patrick :( (and I'm normally not a Patrick fan).

Author:  KatS [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Yes indeed - read the whole drabble last night, and started it again this morning. Thanks to Abi for sharing the link!

Author:  JS [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Thanks for the warning - I've bookmarked the drabble!

Author:  Emma A [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Thanks for sharing the link - that was a fabulous drabble. I haven't logged on to MCR for ages because it's not a very active site, normally!

Author:  MJKB [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I'm in between students so gave myself a little 'treat peek' at the drabble. Looks fabulous. One for bed.
Sunglass wrote:
But as Chubbymonkey says, some of those fatalistic 'for the best' responses to various offstage CS deaths, whether they're Doris Trelawney or the motorist in the crash Nina Rutherford is in, aren't supposed to make us uncomfortable - they seem to have full authorial sanction and are the 'right' response. I personally find them quite chilling, though. I recognise EBD probably intended them in part as a bowing to God's will, but there actually aren't really any references to God's will, more to individual human opinions that this death was for the best. It seems fairly inhuman and dismissive - even arrogant - for someone to confidently pronounce, to general agreement, that poor Doris's death was a blessing in disguise for Mary-Lou.


This has made me realise the fact that I, in obedience to the will of EBD, believd Doris's death to be a 'blessing in disguise'. It removed an obstacle to ML's career and adulthood. Mind you, I couldn't get my head around the death of the driver being a similar blessing. If memory serves me right, it was a happy release to him because his mother, to whom he was fantastically close, had died. Thatstruck a chilling note. Something decidedly wrong in that dynamic.
But getting back to Marie Dobbs, whose death I read about when I was a child, I was actually disturbed by how any human being could be so horribly cold as Miranda about a fellow school mate. I do take the point that Nicola, at least, had the humanity to be affected and guilt that she didn't feel too grieved. But Miranda, Tim and Lawrie, realistic they might be, more's the pity, but cold.

Author:  snowmaiden [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Echoing all opinions about that drabble, didn't heed the warnings and all my actual work this afternoon has gone right out the window :oops: - it is really really brilliant.

Author:  JennieP [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Also seconding request for any transcript links that might be floating around.

I find AF far more realistic but much less comfortable a read than EBD -goodies aren't always vindicated and evil Lois always seems to triumph. But I think her discussion of religion and esp. Vatican II is far more nuanced and grounded than EBD's somewhat fatalistic/blanket approach, and much less overtly didactic.

I also find the way Ann gets portrayed very entertaining, whereas in Chalet Land the saintly Len is the very epitome of What A Schoolgirl Should Be. (Minus the untidiness, obviously)

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I've read most of the Kingscote boarding school books and didn't mind them, but they never became much loved or read constantly like the CS books. My favourite and the only one I would consider owning would be Cricket Term simply because, the good characters seem to triumph in this book. Nicola helps her form win Cricket. Jan Scott acknowledges the unfairness of Nicola not making the Netball team earlier and there does seem some sense of justice prevailing. I also found Lawrie to be less of a spoilt brat in this book. I think that's why I loved EBD is because good always won and the evil people were always vanquished

Author:  Kadi [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I don't have a link to a transcript site but I do have a transcript of Marlows and the Traitor if anyone is interested.

Author:  JB [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Jennie P wrote:

Quote:
I also find the way Ann gets portrayed very entertaining, whereas in Chalet Land the saintly Len is the very epitome of What A Schoolgirl Should Be. (Minus the untidiness, obviously)


Some years ago, Fen Crosbie wrote an article on why Ann Marlow would have been a good Chalet girl. It's a really interesting read.

Wow. I found it. Isn't the internet great?

http://www.maulu.demon.co.uk/AF/articles/familyfailing/index.html

Author:  Sunglass [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I like the article, and generally agree with it.

I'll say this much for AF, though - she realises that someone who is unfailingly helpful, responsible, mature, charitable, sincere, religious etc can still be a right old bore, despite her virtues. I don't think EBD fundamentally gets that someone like Peggy Bettany comes off for at least some readers as annoying, prissy and Mummy-pleasing compared to the rough-and-ready, imaginative, disobedient Polly and Lala Winterton at the start of Peggy. Or that butting in whether or not it's invited or appreciated, and little parables about Jesus and making friends, aren't necessarily going to make you everyone's favourite person.

For EBD, if you are a responsible, hard-working, first to volunteer, natural form prefect-type, you are automatically liked and appreciated as a leader and the 'right' kind of CS girl by fellow CS girls and mistresses. Whereas in AF, popularity, and being liked and respected by your peers, has nothing to do with goodness, helpfulness etc. Tim, Miranda, Lawrie and Nicola are the powers-that-be in their form, despite being arrogant, arbitrary, self-absorbed and witheringly dismissive, and Jean (more or less another version of Ann in Nick and Lawrie's form) is seen as the kind of well-meaning bore who always wins the form scripture prize, and is liked by mistresses.

Author:  JennieP [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Thanks for that article, JB. I thought that her comments on Ann's two-dimensionality in comparison to the other characters were particularly interesting, given how two-dimensional I also find Len, who has no real personality. And being beloved by all, Len doesn't even have the added depth that being disliked by Nicola et al gives to Ann and the occasional reactions that it draws from her (Ann). And as Sunglass says about Peggy, EBD just doesn't seem to *get*, in the way AF does, that what she sees as someone epitomising all the perfections of girlhood (presumably for the reader's edification) doesn't actually make her likeable or even realistic.

Author:  Elle [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Kadi wrote:
I don't have a link to a transcript site but I do have a transcript of Marlows and the Traitor if anyone is interested.


I have Pm'd you Kadi.

I read my first Antonia Forest this weekend - the first one (cannot remember what it is called!) and I quite enjoyed it. I think I will need to read a few of the others before I can realistically compare it with EBD. I did however feel that the characters were better drawn than in the later Chalet School books, although I felt that the early Chalet School stood up to it very well.

Author:  Kathy_S [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Actually I think one reason I find EBD such a pleasant form of escapism is that nice, helpful, responsible kids get to be popular! Accuracy, who needs it? I prefer to visit a world where scholarship doesn't get one bullied as a teacher's pet, caring about right and wrong doesn't condemn characters to roles as goody-goody targets, and that even during the (realistically) cliquish middle years Mary-Lou has the force of character to bring people who might otherwise have been outcasts into the gang.

I can't really judge Antonia Forest, as I've only read Autumn Term (at least in recent memory). It didn't convince me to run out and collect the lot, though I'd probably read them if I came across them.

Author:  Alison H [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Ironically, Jack Lambert, who looked set to succeed Len as CS "heroine", would probably have made a much better Kingscote girl than she did a CS girl!

Author:  Nightwing [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Actually, I'm not sure that all of EBD's popular, 'nice' girls were that unrealistic - Gay Lambert and Tom Gay, for example, are both lovely, but they both have that force of personality and charisma that would make a leader. Ditto Mary-Lou - whatever you might think of her, again it's her incredibly strong personality which makes her so popular. To me, Len is the really only stand-out as someone who is, well, painfully two-dimensional - she seems forced into her role as the popular one. If she'd been exactly the same character but not forced into a leadership role, I might have found her more believable.

Author:  JennieP [ Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Tom and Gay are both lovely characters, but I find that they aren't portrayed as the two-dimensional perfect beings like Peggy and Len. Gay incites rebellion against Miss Bubb and runs away from school, and Tom perpetually has her hands in her pockets, (IIRC) carries a socking great knife in her pocket and has absolutely no idea how to deal with Rosalie. Whereas Peggy is always daintily clad a la true EDB heroine, and sweetly attentive to her mother - ick! And as for poor Len, her one moment of personality is putting her hair in a ponytail - and even then, she'll obediently plait it if they go on an expedition. :banghead:

Author:  Loryat [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I LOVE AF - but there is a certain cruelty about her books that makes them more uncomfortable reading than CS. I too would not like to be one of the characters outside the chosen circle, and with AF as with most GO writers you get the impression that these people are just less interesting. Which is fine in EBD etc, but in the more realistic Kingcote books I sort of resent it (I'm sure I would not have belonged to that circle).

I have only read three of the school books: Autumn Term I loved; End of Term too but less so;I enjoyed Attic Term but could have done with less of the Ginty/Patrick storyline.

Funnily enough, I find EBD's slight modernisations more convincing than the ruthless jumps forward in time of AF; I don't find her references to 'pop' and drugs all that natural, though the girl's behaviour as natural as ever. I also think that Lawrie's character suffers in the later books, in Autumn Term she is much more on a level with Nicola.

I loved Mrs Redboots' drabble, and only wish AF had written more school stories. Val Forrest is quite similar to AF and a good read, especially the books about the huge family whose name escapes me at the moment.

Author:  RubyGates [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I love Antonia Forest's books, especially the school stories. They always seemed more modern in tone and style compared to the Chalet School or Malory Towers, evne though they were written a long time ago. I can't remember which book it's in but there is one episode which made me absolutely spitting mad, and still does and it's when the Marlow parents suddenly feel they can't afford school fees for all their kids. They decide to take just Nichola out of school as she's sensible and won't kick up a fuss. Well sorry but in my view if they can't afford school fees then take ALL the kids out of private school. You can't just pick on one kid like that, you have to treat your kids all the same when it comes to something like that. Poor Nicky, she always seemed to get a rough deal because she was viewed as sensible. Perhaps she should have sulked or had a few more tantrums like the rest of the Marlows.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

It was in The Cricket Term, and it really wound me up too. I could just about handle them saying they're leaving Ann and Ginty as one was in the middle of her A-level course and one was in the middle of her O-level course and it would really've messed them up to've made them move schools at that stage, but saying they were leaving Lawrie at Kingscote and taking Nicola away was really vile.

Author:  Mel [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I agree about the oddness of Mrs Marlow's reasoning. I think Ann should have been taken away as she could do her A levels for nursing at the Sixth Form College. Also Nicola has only been at the school for two years, whereas all the others started at nine.

Author:  judithR [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Mel wrote:
I think Ann should have been taken away as she could do her A levels for nursing at the Sixth Form College


Did they exist at that time? "Colebridge Grammar" or the local Technical College are likely to have been the only options.

Author:  Lisa_T [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

RE: comment on authorial presentation of deaths... and 'being better' - eg, Doris and Random Young Man in Two Sams.

And yet, to be coldly cynical about it, you could make an argument that it was. I'm talking about practicalities here, not Mary-Lou's emotional response (or Doris's, for that matter) which is a different thing again. Ditto the man in Nina's accident.

For example, a friend of mine was very much the youngest of three and her father died when she was a baby. When my friend was 22, her mother was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, and it progressed quite quickly. My friend was the only one still at home, and she had to provide her mother with constant care despite also holding down a full time teaching job, and I know she dreaded the inevitable further deterioration. Some years ago, the mother died from ovarian cancer - and I found myself thinking that dreadful as it was for my friend, in a very real way her mother's death has freed her, just as Doris's did Mary-Lou - though I didn't make that parallel at the time. I met the mother many times and loved her - this is NOT written from callousness - and even when my relationship with my friend was rocky, I could rely on getting a card from the mother. Now my friend has her own life, career and family - things that her situation would have made very difficult before. Then again, that approach is just as simplistic in its own way as the reverse, as anyone who has read the recent case in the UK of the mother 'killing' her bedridden daughter can attest.

To return to the point: I loved the Kingscote books when I read them, and I did find some aspects of their portrayal of boarding school life to be more realistic that the CS's. Then again, the CS shows how people can have affection for their school and validates that, and I think it's too easy to forget that happens. I returned to (boarding) school for Speech Day last year, and found myself thinking how very Chaletish it was, in a sense, with the atmosphere of caring and ... well, the sense of coming home, regardless of the changes in the intervening eleven years. So I always loved the warmth of the CS books; I think I would have been another who would have literally shrivelled in the chillier enviroment of Kingscote.

Having said that, one of my history teachers was a dead ringer for Miss Cromwell. I always appreciated the fact that in AF, we see the withering sarcasm (and cringe ourselves, even if we do laugh...) whereas in the CS it's part of the mythos rather than our seen reality. eg, phrases such as 'famed sarcastic tongue' and 'behind closed doors' come to mind!

Author:  Sunglass [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

Lisa_T wrote:
And yet, to be coldly cynical about it, you could make an argument that it was. I'm talking about practicalities here, not Mary-Lou's emotional response (or Doris's, for that matter) which is a different thing again. Ditto the man in Nina's accident.


Sure. Objectively speaking, Doris's death does free Mary-Lou to pursue her career. My only problem with the way EBD presents it is that she portrays everyone as openly and blithely regarding it as providential for that reason, as though Doris had no other identity or significance in herself, other than being a kind of burden to Mary-Lou.

I realise EBD didn't intend it to seem that way, but there's something repellent to me in Doris' death being publicly talked of in CS circles as the removal of an obstacle, even though it's well-meant. A woman many of them had known for a long time, and who had had a difficult life in many ways, deserves more consideration than being seen as a kind of ball and chain! And it's even more insulting that Verity's marriage is seen in exactly similar terms by CS circles - not important in itself, as a happy event in the life of an old girl, but as another clingly, helpless dependent removed from Mary-Lou's life! (Not suggesting Mary-Lou thinks any of this, incidentally, but this is the way that everyone else seems to interpret Doris's death and Verity's marriage, as though they only matter for their impact on Mary-Lou...)

I think it's a symptom of EBD's weakening powers by this part of the series, that she can't see beyond the repercussions of an event for a single, favoured character. Earlier in the series, she'd have handled it much more subtly

Author:  rugbyliz [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Girls Own: Antonia Forest and EBD

I enjoy both AF and EBD but for different reasons. I found the chalet school as a child and was hooked from the start. I thought the school and the people there sounded just perfect and so wanted to go!
I did not come across AF until I was an adult and took a while to get into her books. In fact is was not until I got a copy of Autumn term that I started to enjoy them. I think her world is more based in reality but I am not sure how much i would have enjoyed such "reality" as a child.
Out of all the books of both writers I find Nicola Marlow to be my favourite character as I feel I can believe she really could have existed.
Mind you, I read my EBDs over and over again but I really have to be in the right mood for a Marlow book!

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