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Friendship- Rivals
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Author:  Fiona Mc [ Sun May 09, 2010 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Friendship- Rivals

Rivals of the Chalet School are the first time EBD introduces another school within the vicinity of the Chalet School. The Chalet School and the new school St Scholastika do not become friends but instead both schools try and find ways to antagonise the other. This changes when Joey almost dies while saving Maureen’s life, but resumes again until all is finally resolved. The school experiences chicken pox and Grizel returns to visit. The book was published in 1929 along with Heather Leaves School and was printed twenty-two times. The latter printings have minor, frequent cuts to the story.

The theme we will be discussing in relation to this book is friendship (though do feel free to discuss anything else). The Chalet School do not offer the hand of friendship, in fact, Joey Bettany makes it clear she loathes the school after Miss Browne attempts to gain Joey as a pupil by disparaging Mademoiselle and the school. Miss Browne also confides this to her Head Girl: Elaine Gilling.

We also see Cornelia’s new friendship with the rest of the middles after a disastrous first term. Cornelia very much becomes one with them and something of a leader. We also see the closeness of the quartet: Joey, Marie, Frieda and Simone as the play jokes on the younger girls and learn to be Prefects for the first time.

When the two schools are thrown together, we see the potential and budding friendships between some of the girls namely Maureen O’Donnell and Deira Hagan; and Joey and Gipsy Carson. Joey and Gipsy’s friendship develop to the point they continue their friendship long after both girls leave school.

We also see the depth of friendship with the robin and Joey. When Joey is restless and fevered and potentially about to die, it is Robin who is able to get through to her and sing her to peaceful sleep.

We do start to see the rivalry die down and then resume as Elaine refuses to let it go and is rough with the Robin. Elaine initiates a nasty snow fight and refuses to allow any friendship between the schools.

We also see Grizel return with a very old friend from EBD’s first book: Gerry Challoner. Grizel see’s the school as more important than family and chooses to visit her friends rather than her parents. It is very telling of her relationships with both (though travel would be a large part of the reason why she went to Austria, not England).

And finally, Madge makes it very clear the rivalry was the fault of both girls and the Chalet School girls should have offered a hand of friendship rather than acted the way they did. While Miss Browne and Gipsy both repent from their own behaviour, one for passing on information that inflamed the situation and the other for floating along and not taking a strong stand against the rivalry.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon May 10, 2010 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

I didn't realise when I first read this that Gerry was an existing EBD character, but I thought it was really good to see that Grizel had made a close friend at college and seemed to be trying to make the most of a course she hadn't wanted to do. It's a shame that the friendship was never mentioned again: once Grizel was back at the CS, she was in that awkward position in which everyone else seemed to be closer to each other than they were to her, which was quite sad. & Elisaveta was already in that position: she's writing these rather plaintive letters asking people for news about the school goings-on which she's not a part of any more, and it's sad :(.

I thought that Madge handled things very well at the end. Both schools suffered from poor leadership during this: Mlle isn't criticised in the way that Miss Browne is, but I never thought that she handled things very well. & surely Con Stewart, new or not, should have had the sense to tell the girls to get into single file on a narrow path when people were coming the other way! St S's is clearly the "bad" school in that it doesn't adapt to local life as the CS has done, but, whereas in later books EBD is unwilling to admit that the CS could ever be be in the wrong, she's fair in this one and makes it clear that it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

I could have lived without the snobbery element of the Vera storyline. I accept that part of the problem with Vera was her obsession with titles, but it annoys me that EBD just had to make the point that the girl who behaved the worst was from a nouveau riche family, especially as she then did exactly the same thing with Diana Skelton. & I'm not convinced that a reigning monarch would have got quite so stressed out over an anonymous letter from a silly kid :roll: .

There's a good scene with Jem and Dick in this, in which we see these two stiff upper-lipped Englishmen trying to discuss their feelings about the likelihood of Joey's death and its effect on Madge: there are very few "man-to-man" conversations in the series. Isn't this book (or the month just before it) the first time that Madge and Dick meet each other's spouses and children?

Sorry, this is turning into a very long waffle :lol: . I always found the idea of Robin's singing bringing Joey back from the dead ridiculously OTT until a few years ago when something similar happened in RL with a girl in ... I think it was St Helens. I still find it melodramatic, though. & how many times has Joey nearly died by this point? I know that she was EBD's heroine, but I think it was time someone else got a chance to be at the centre of the big drama. Mary-Lou only nearly died once, and Len not at all!

One last bit of waffle - I think this is the point at which we see the San becoming really close to the School(/Schools). It's Gottfried, rather than the local doctor at the lakeside, who comes to attend to Joey and Maureen after they fall through the ice, and we see Jack and some of the others attending a church service with the CS people. So that's another type of friendship :wink: .

Author:  brie [ Mon May 10, 2010 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

I really like the friendship between the quartet in this, I like the fact that they were not perfect prefects and really enjoyed the hair flourig incident, which I felt showed that they were still very friendly with the middles. Of course this doesn't really conform to the Joey is perfect talk of the later books :roll: .

I also really liked Grizel and Gerrys friendship, although I had no idea who Gerry was!

It's also intersting to see EBD's portrayal of a school where she is not constricted by having to show it as an extremely admirable place all the time. Although I suppose she feels compelled to show its bad side off more.

That said I do really like the way in which neither school is considered innocent, and both are to blame. EBD could not and would not have done that in a later book, and I think that for that reason despite the increase in the number of characters and the fact that Madge is no longer head, Rivals still retains the feeling of the first four books which it might otherwise have lost.

(I'm really not sure that that last sentence makes sense!)

Author:  Llywela [ Mon May 10, 2010 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

brie wrote:
That said I do really like the way in which neither school is considered innocent, and both are to blame. EBD could not and would not have done that in a later book, and I think that for that reason despite the increase in the number of characters and the fact that Madge is no longer head, Rivals still retains the feeling of the first four books which it might otherwise have lost.

(I'm really not sure that that last sentence makes sense!)

I know what you mean - it makes sense to me! The school is starting to grow and change, but hasn't yet lost the sense of intimacy it had in the very early books. It isn't completely lost, I feel, until they leave Austria - that's the really big break, and the intimacy of the Tirol years is never re-created later.

Author:  Laura V [ Mon May 10, 2010 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

This is one of my favourite books in the whole series :D Although its completely improbably that 2 English schools would be set up on the same lake in the middle of the Austrian Alps, and that one would be so unprepared for the winter! I love the friendships we see in this book, how well the characters are drawn and the plotlines. The only thing that bothers me (and many others no doubt about it!) is the Robin singing to Joey, but then again we are reading about a very romanticised school!

Author:  Pado [ Mon May 10, 2010 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

It seems to me that the diffidence to Miss Browne is the concept of her "selling" the school at all. After all, the CS more or less sold itself; after going after Grizel, it seems that pupils magically appear on the doorstep, multiplying as necessary. So already, it's one down for Browne.

Then, she happens to try out her pitch on Joey and company, not knowing who they are. Two down; why didn't she do any research about prominent people in the area?

In fairness, she doesn't explicitly put down the CS, just disparages "foreign schools" in general, which is rude, but certainly not a hanging crime. But one more negative mark on general principles.

I still think Joey over-reacted. And her all-too-manifest "I'm not saying anything bad about the other school" attitude no doubt had the effect of subtly putting people even more off the Saints than they might have been anyway.

Author:  MJKB [ Tue May 11, 2010 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Pado wrote:
In fairness, she doesn't explicitly put down the CS, just disparages "foreign schools" in general, which is rude, but certainly not a hanging crime. But one more negative mark on general principles.


I think it was a hanging crime in EBD's eyes, particularly at that time. EBD is an exemplary ecuminist and internationalist at a time when some British people regarded Britain and its institutions as superior, and Miss Browne's dismissal of Mdle's headship as 'French', and therefore, infinitely inferior to British, really did irk. I'm not surprised that the 16 year old Joey reacted the way she did, it showed a distinct lack of respect to a family friend and headmistress as well as a disregard for the host nation. Miss Browne comes out of it far less favourably than Mdle and Madge. I also think the CS is shown to be a far more enlightened in terms of religious and national tolerance than St.S

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue May 11, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

This is also one of my favourite books in the series, and like others I was so pleased to find that Grizel had made a friend at last! (Perhaps because, try as I might, I always found her to be one of the characters closest to 'me', if that makes sense)

I always find it interesting that the school can make personal friendships with other girls (like Jo and Gypsy) but not as a whole - it seems to be the institution that they dislike, rather than the girls themselves! And of course, we get to see later in the series, when the two merge, that the girls really do get on after a while.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue May 11, 2010 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

I find it amusing how ill-assorted the Quartette seem at the start, though, with Simone very set on a career, Marie and Frieda being rather mawkish about wanting to make homes 'pretty' for their husbands, and Joey determined not to marry. They don't seem like the most obvious of friends at this point, and Marie and Frieda in particular seem as dull as ditchwater!

What I find very interesting about the start of the relationship with the Saints is that the Saints are presented as complete Little Englanders (although I would have said that if Miss Browne and her girls were united in despising foreigners, moving to the Tyrol isn't the most likely step!) while the CS British girls are uniformly charmed by local culture, and don't appear to have a single issue with being schoolmates with foreigners! I do get slightly surprised that the UK CS girls get so furious about being called 'foreigners', though! Although it would have been fascinating - in a time-travelling way - to see what would have happened if the early Swiss-period CS, which is much more British and insular, had been the one to come into contact with the Saints...?

I do wish the Saints/CS relationship at the institutional level had been less one-sided - it would have been great to see the CS acknowledge it had something to learn from the other school, too, rather than EBD just showing us the Saints getting everything wrong, from the wrong kind of shoes to not having porcelain stoves in the rooms! They dn't have Guides, they are snobbish, have a crap headgirl, they write anonymous letters, they quibble about collections, they aren't good at skating or climbing, they nearly knock down the Robin, they are nearly responsible for Joey's death, etc etc - can they do anything right?

My favourite passage in the entire book is
Quote:
Miss Maynard, striding along, with Joey Bettany on one side and Simone Lecoutier on the other, looked what she was—a jolly, frank Englishwoman. Joey, with her high-bred face, was another; little Simone being typically French. In front of them went the others, most of them showing their various races in their faces and bearing, from Vanna of South Italy, to Lieschen Hoffman, who came from one of the North German seaside resorts, and looked it, even in her very English coat and hat of brown material.


(Apart from the fact that this sounds vaguely like a Benetton ad, how do you look as if you came from a north German seaside resort?)

Author:  MJKB [ Tue May 11, 2010 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
how do you look as if you came from a north German seaside resort?)

Flaxon hair, an apple blossom complexion and easily shocked by the unconventional behaviour of English and American girls?
What does a 'Jolly English woman' look like, I wonder. Does she also have to have a 'high bred' face?

Author:  Mel [ Tue May 11, 2010 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Until 'Rivals' the CS has been trying to be 'very English' but now EBD is showing us how cosmopolitan it is!
St S is the perfect foil for this, though she does lay it on with trowel that the CS speak various lnguages, eat continental breakfasts etc. Why on earth did Miss B choose such a remote spot? (EBD does this again with St Hilda's later, which is another British school abroad with little interest in languages)

Author:  Alison H [ Tue May 11, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

We're told (again!) that the air is good for the "young ladies", and Austria would have been cheaper than Switzerland or France, but it still seems an odd choice, especially as we don't see them visiting other places in the area or making much effort with the language (and French would have been the "genteel" language to learn anyway, rather than German). It's pretty hard to believe that, of all the lakes in all the world (to misquote Humphrey Bogart :lol: ), Miss Browne just happened to pick the one at which there was a similar school already!

& everyone conveniently seems to forget that the British CS girls were clueless at winter sports to start with (Joey nearly got her fingers chopped off by Jem because she fell over whilst skating), that the CS didn't have the wondrous institution of Guides to start with, etc! I don't think either school comes out of this very well: the CS girls force the St S's girls to walk in the mud, laugh their heads off when they see them slipping on the ice, get involved in name-calling and chucking snowballs at each other, etc. Although I find it realistic: rivalries between schools are fairly common, IME, and in the later books EBD seems reluctant to admit that the CS could ever be less than perfect.

Author:  Llywela [ Tue May 11, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

MJKB wrote:
Flaxon hair, an apple blossom complexion and easily shocked by the unconventional behaviour of English and American girls?
What does a 'Jolly English woman' look like, I wonder. Does she also have to have a 'high bred' face?

Heh, the image of a 'high bred' face I have in my mind doesn't exactly jibe with 'jolly'. I'd imagine your stereotypical Englishwoman would have to have a classic English rose complexion, though, for starters!

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue May 11, 2010 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

MJKB wrote:
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
how do you look as if you came from a north German seaside resort?)

Flaxon hair, an apple blossom complexion and easily shocked by the unconventional behaviour of English and American girls?
What does a 'Jolly English woman' look like, I wonder. Does she also have to have a 'high bred' face?


:D :D I can understand someone saying I looked Irish, but not that I specifically looked 'as if I came from a small town on the north-west coast of Ireland'!

Also, does the fact that Miss Maynard looks 'jolly' and 'frank' mean that her face, unlike Joey's, isn't 'high-bred'? Because what little we know of the Maynards suggests they're from a somewhat higher social drawer than the Bettanys...

The changing attitudes to 'Englishness' and 'foreignness' - and the question of who exactly is 'foreign' at the CS - is very interesting in the way it fluctuates at different points in the series. I do think the Saints and the Swiss-era CS might have had fewer obvious differences - certainly the Saints couldn't have seen the Swiss CS as composed of 'foreigners' - but maybe the same could have been said for the slightly earlier CS under Gisela's headship, when everyone was so obsessed with being 'English'? It occurs to me that Gisela might have been thrilled to have a real English school across the lake, and might have consulted Elaine and co rather than just Joey, on 'English' school matters, which might have disarmed the more hostile Saints! Or, I suppose, confirmed their prejudices that foreign things are inferior to English...

On an entirely different matter - when the Saints and CS girls are stranded on the wrong side of the chasm and are going to have to loop around the long way up the mountain to get home, why does Dick Bettany's name leap to Bill's mind as someone likely to be a help?

Quote:
But is there no one with a cart to whom we could send a message to meet us at the foot of the pass?’
‘If only Mr. Bettany had been still here!’ sighed Miss Wilson.
But Dick Bettany had moved to Innsbruck when Jem Russell had gone back finally to the Sonnalpe, so there was no possibility of getting to them.


This makes it sound as though Dick, rather than being a forestry service worker in India who happens to have been briefly in the area on his holidays, generally hangs around the Tiernsee with a horse and cart!

Author:  Llywela [ Tue May 11, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Maybe she was just thinking in terms of who she knew living close enough to have helped - Dick and co had been, but are no longer. But surely she knows other people in the vicinity?

It occurs to me that although I would struggle to describe someone who is 'typically French', we get a lot of French school parties in the city here - they send the kids off in small groups and pairs to explore - and I can spot 'em a mile off. Something about them is very distinctive.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue May 11, 2010 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

What were Dick and Mollie doing in Innsbruck anyway? If they had financial business to attend to, Innsbruck isn't an obvious place, and if they wanted some rest and relaxation then the lakeside'd be a better bet than a city centre. Unless they fancied doing a bit of sightseeing.

Maybe Miss Wilson was secretly infatuated with Dick and longed for him to come and rescue her?

Maybe not ...

I can see how Madge might have started off with the idea of running a very British school and then changed her mind once she found that she was getting a lot of pupils from other countries and that the idea of girls learning to speak fluently in three languages could be a kind of USP for the school, but it's a shame that the missing term covered by Visitors, when the crucial decision about using all three languages is made and the Brits Abroad idea goes out of the window, isn't covered by EBD.

Author:  MJKB [ Tue May 11, 2010 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Llywela wrote:
It occurs to me that although I would struggle to describe someone who is 'typically French', we get a lot of French school parties in the city here - they send the kids off in small groups and pairs to explore - and I can spot 'em a mile off. Something about them is very distinctive.


Funny that. I have a sister who emigrated to the US after college. She married a fellow Irish man and they have three children, all grown up now. I often wondered how it is that my niece and nephews look American, or certainly Irish American, with an almost Kennedy look about them. They've been back and forth to Ireland throughout the years and they always stood out from among the other Irish cousins. It could be to do with voice, mannerisms, clothes, even dentistry etc.
The quote above reminds me of the droves of Spanish students who come to Ireland every summer. When I was growing up we regarded them as quite exotic. They were decidedly louder than we were, wore different clothes and generally seemed more confident than we did. I suppose we all look out for the differences in peoples and nations as it adds a bit more colour to life. I can see differences in races, even among Europeans and Americans, but the differences between social classes is abit more worrying. The first time I read that bit about Joey's 'high bred' face I took it more to mean a mark of her sensitivity and delicate look.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue May 11, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

MJKB wrote:
It could be to do with voice, mannerisms, clothes, even dentistry etc.


I think it's all those variables, definitely. It's also a bit of what language you habitually speak - I notice an American friend of mine who married a Frenchman, lives in Paris and habitually speaks French, has become more French-looking over the years. Not just because she's adopted a more French style of dress etc., but because as she ages, her face is lining differently because the way your face moves when you speak French is different to the way it moves when you speak English. (I can nearly always tell in photos of myself taken when I'm talking what language I'm speaking, for instance...)

I find it interesting, though, that EBD uses 'race' as a term for describing physical differences between European nationalities - especially when she also does things like describe Deira O'Hagan as Spanish- rather than Irish-looking, due to a Spanish grandmother (although, as has often been said on the board, if she's to be presented at Court, then her antecedents will have been wholly or mostly English rather than Irish, anyway...) Also, Joey never sounds obviously English-looking to me at all, with her straight jet-black hair and eyes and very pale skin...? I wonder whether EBD would extend 'race' to what she seems to see as major differences between Prussians and Bavarians?

I get very impatient with her ideas about physical differences between social classes and feel like pointing out that low-born Biddy O'Ryan with her ravishing looks, seems to contravene this 'rule'...

Author:  Mel [ Tue May 11, 2010 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Talking of 'high-bred face' Jilly Cooper in her book 'Class' claims that bodies and faces get progressively thinner and bonier as you go up the social scale so aristos have stoat-shaped heads. So perhaps EBD means good bone-structure?

Author:  MJKB [ Tue May 11, 2010 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Mel wrote:
Talking of 'high-bred face' Jilly Cooper in her book 'Class' claims that bodies and faces get progressively thinner and bonier as you go up the social scale so aristos have stoat-shaped heads. So perhaps EBD means good bone-structure?

That doesn't really work for most of the British royal family, surely.

Author:  Alison H [ Tue May 11, 2010 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Mel wrote:
Talking of 'high-bred face' Jilly Cooper in her book 'Class' claims that bodies and faces get progressively thinner and bonier as you go up the social scale so aristos have stoat-shaped heads.


Oh good! You mean I can blame my weight problems on my lack of upper-class ancestry :D ? This I like! Not sure it works, though. Wallis Simpson was too thin and the Queen Mother was always on the plump side!

I think that talking about people's appearance in terms of social background etc was much more common before the War, but was then discredited because it sounded too much like Nazi eugenics. There's much less of it in the later books, although poor old Joan Baker is classed as "cheaply pretty" rather than just "pretty" :roll: .

To get back to St Scholastika's, CS girls - apart from Stacie - always seem to recover fairly quickly from their numerous mishaps, but Maureen is taken to the French Riviera for a year to recover, and years later (and totally unnecessarily) we're told that she's died young partly as a result of the accident. I suppose EBD didn't want to lose a major CS character by sending them off somewhere to recuperate, especially as the person who'd nearly died was always Joey in the early books ... is there anyone other than Maureen who actually has to leave school as a result of an accident which happens whilst they're there?

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu May 13, 2010 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Alison H wrote:
Wallis Simpson was too thin and the Queen Mother was always on the plump side!


Didn't WS always disdainfully refer to the QM-to-be as 'the Cook'? :D

Back on the ' Englishness vs foreignness' thing, would EBD have expected a certain amount of xenophobia to be common among the British at the time of writing of Rivals? Miss Browne clearly expects that three Englishmen (and she clearly recognises Jem, Dick and Ted Humphries as English by sight, before anyone says anything!) abroad will be likely to agree with her criticisms of French-run schools. And Jem, in response, even before he says his wife started the school, replies

Quote:
‘The school in question is run by a particularly efficient Head, and her staff are nearly all English.


which sounds a bit as if he thinks most French-run schools might justify her criticism, but that Mademoiselle is unusual in being 'efficient' and that the almost entirely English staff mitigate 'foreign' inefficiency anyway!

And near the end it's still being reiterated that Miss Browne can't quite get over the fact that continental girls have shown themselves to be more brave and honourable than her British girls (though her 'British' girls include at least two Irish girls... Incidentally, if the Donovans and the O'Hagans are both Anglo-Irish Cork families, there is absolutely no way they wouldn't already know one another before they meet at the Tiernsee!)

I also do still find the CS's apparently uniform outrage at being called 'foreigners' a bit odd - I could easily imagine the Austrians being annoyed at being called foreigners in their own country, or the CS British girls by being called it by other Brits, but surely each CS nationality would be likely to have a different take on it? It seems odd that Robin, Amy Stevens, Vanna di Ricci and Deira O'Hagan, all different nationalities, and all foreigners to Austria, are equally outraged for apparently similar reasons!

And what on earth is going on with that remark about foreigners being afraid to play with a hard ball? Is this some archetypal remark about continentals and cricket? I don't see again why it gets everyone so enraged - I know EBD tells us the CS sports teams are 'brilliant', but surely it's much more likely that with most of the non-UK girls never having previously played cricket before they came to the CS, no games mistress yet, and no one to play against, the CS cricket playing probably wasn't much cop...?

Or is that why they get so defensive about it? :D

Author:  MJKB [ Thu May 13, 2010 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
The school in question is run by a particularly efficient Head, and her staff are nearly all English.
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
which sounds a bit as if he thinks most French-run schools might justify her criticism, but that Mademoiselle is unusual in being 'efficient' and that the almost entirely English staff mitigate 'foreign' inefficiency anyway!


I didn't pick up on that inference the first time I read it, but of course you're absolutely right. I wonder how Miss Browne would have reacted to Gisela's innocent comment on the first day of the CS that English schools are deficient in education. That came as a big shock to me on my first reading of the School at because I was so used to the 'English schools are best' diet of the EB books in which all French sneaky and totally uninterested in academic work, and as for Americans.............

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu May 13, 2010 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Quote:
‘The school in question is run by a particularly efficient Head, and her staff are nearly all English.


which sounds a bit as if he thinks most French-run schools might justify her criticism, but that Mademoiselle is unusual in being 'efficient' and that the almost entirely English staff mitigate 'foreign' inefficiency anyway!


I read it completely differently - to me, it sounds like he's saying that even for a Head - any Head - Mlle. is particularly efficient, and that since most of her staff are English it's not such a very "foreign" place. But perhaps I'm giving him too much credit!

As MJKB says, in some (most?) GO books the French are shown as being devious and without honour (I'm thinking both EB and Lorna Hill) and completely unable to understand the right-thinking English girl who are their pupils or classmates. Perhaps EBD was writing against this stereotype?

Author:  MJKB [ Fri May 14, 2010 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Nightwing wrote:
As MJKB says, in some (most?) GO books the French are shown as being devious and without honour (I'm thinking both EB and Lorna Hill) and completely unable to understand the right-thinking English girl who are their pupils or classmates. Perhaps EBD was writing against this stereotype?


Without doubt, she was. When, as aforementioned, Gisela makes that statement about English education, it ran counter to the attitude of every other GO author at the time. It was inconceivable to have right minded, honourable 'foreign' girls and tough, hardboiled American girls. It is a pity that as the series ran on some of the insularity of the other GO books creeps in, so that you get a very British colony abroad in Switzerland with no sense of the same respect or deference for the host country that she shows in Austria.

Author:  Cel [ Sat May 15, 2010 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

MJKB wrote:
It is a pity that as the series ran on some of the insularity of the other GO books creeps in, so that you get a very British colony abroad in Switzerland with no sense of the same respect or deference for the host country that she shows in Austria.


Although if you look at the second-string cast of the later Swiss books, there seems to be a larger number of non-English pupils than ever before - big proportions of the Crew and Jack Lambert's gang and so on are French/German/Swiss/Dutch girls. It's just that they're never really fleshed out, so they tend not to make an impact individually.

Author:  MJKB [ Sat May 15, 2010 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Cel wrote:
Although if you look at the second-string cast of the later Swiss books, there seems to be a larger number of non-English pupils than ever before - big proportions of the Crew and Jack Lambert's gang and so on are French/German/Swiss/Dutch girls. It's just that they're never really fleshed out, so they tend not to make an impact individually.


Also, in the Tyrol books the reader is given an appreciation of the local customs and culture. Many of the Austrian girls and their families are given prominent roles in the books, and, like the Mensches and Maranis, are authority figures. One of the most charming episodes in the early books is the visit by the Bettany girls and the Robin to the Menshes for Christmas. The Menshes treat even the autocratic Madge like a daughter and Madge is very grateful for their hospitality and friendship. This sense of internationalism is the greatest strenght of the early books because it is so different to other school stories of the time.

Author:  Poppy [ Mon May 17, 2010 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

MJKB wrote:
Mel wrote:
Talking of 'high-bred face' Jilly Cooper in her book 'Class' claims that bodies and faces get progressively thinner and bonier as you go up the social scale so aristos have stoat-shaped heads. So perhaps EBD means good bone-structure?

That doesn't really work for most of the British royal family, surely.


well HRH The Princess Royal is very slim - I always put that down to horseriding

Rivals is the first Chalet book I read so I have a particular findness for it - but will have to re read it with your comments in mind now! I think the version I have is abridged - I don't rememebr anything about Joey being referred to as having a high bred looking face...

Author:  bonnie [ Mon May 17, 2010 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

One of the things about Rivals that interests me is, what were the "outside" teachers supposed to do about the new school? Miss Denny, presumably, was tied to the Chalet School, but what about Plato, Herr Anserl, Herr Laubach (was he with the school in Rivals? He seemed to turn up out of nowhere in Exploits, as far as I can see!) and so on? Was Herr Anserl supposed to associate himself with only one school? Presumably before the Chalet arrived he had other pupils, so was he free to take on the Saints, or was he exclusively a Chalet School teacher? He is described as dedicated to his art, so would he have missed the opportunity to find another Margia? And the same could be said for Plato - I can't imagine him not wanting to seek out new singing stars, and just think of the opportunity of forming a large-scale choral society by combining the two schools! Now there's an idea EBD missed out on - resolution of tensions between the schools via music, rather than via near-death-experiences and anonymous letters...

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue May 18, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

bonnie wrote:
Was Herr Anserl supposed to associate himself with only one school? Presumably before the Chalet arrived he had other pupils, so was he free to take on the Saints, or was he exclusively a Chalet School teacher? He is described as dedicated to his art, so would he have missed the opportunity to find another Margia? And the same could be said for Plato - I can't imagine him not wanting to seek out new singing stars


That's a good point - I bet, if EBD had covered it, it would have been a matter of Miss Browne begging Plato and Herr A to take on her pupils, too, and being turned down, either because they aren't advanced enough, or because of CS loyalty issues! Although the entire staffs merge when the CS buys St S's, I can't imagine EBD countenancing the sharing of freelance staff associated first with the CS! Though it would be great fun if Plato discovered a wonderful budding soprano across the lake and bubbled with enthusiasm about her at the CS...

But it would have been very interesting to see the Tiernsee locals and residents in general responding to the presence of two schools, rather than one. Would Herr Braun also have given the Saints seats of honour also at the Tzigane concerts, for instance? Or, if the Saints came up with a brilliant scheme to help alleviate winter poverty locally, would they have surpassed the CS in popularity? Might summer visitors have started asking Miss Browne to make an exception and take on their daughters, because they would like them to have immersion in an entirely English-speaking environment, or because St S's is a smaller school?

Or what if the presence of two schools actually made the locals feel swamped by too many schoolgirls, and the addition of the Saints made them feel more negative towards the CS...?

Author:  Miss Di [ Wed May 19, 2010 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Or what if the presence of two schools actually made the locals feel swamped by too many schoolgirls, and the addition of the Saints made them feel more negative towards the CS...?



I think I go with this theory. Knowing how I feel about the feral children next door and how much crosser I feel when they have feral visitors...

Author:  hac61 [ Wed May 19, 2010 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Or what if the presence of two schools actually made the locals feel swamped by too many schoolgirls, and the addition of the Saints made them feel more negative towards the CS...?


Or they felt threatened by the number of British people invading their enviroment?

I lived in England for the first 45 years of my life, but I know how I feel about the tourists when they invade us every summer.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed May 19, 2010 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

hac61 wrote:
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
Or what if the presence of two schools actually made the locals feel swamped by too many schoolgirls, and the addition of the Saints made them feel more negative towards the CS...?


Or they felt threatened by the number of British people invading their enviroment?

I lived in England for the first 45 years of my life, but I know how I feel about the tourists when they invade us every summer.


Yes, it just occurred to me that, whatever about the Chalet girls and the Saints getting on one another's nerves and blocking paths and continually running into one another whenever they leave the house, it might have been much more maddening for the locals, who were suddenly swamped with large numbers of visibly antagonistic schoolgirls in blue or brown! I mean, obviously some locals would benefit financially from the presence of two schools, but it seems perfectly likely that for others it must have been a shock for their remote lake to suddenly have a lot more people and two 'foreign' businesses so visibly present...?

Especially in winter - presumably they were used to the presence of summer visitors and tourists, although I'm never sure quite how busy and populous to imagine the Tiernsee being in summer. Sometimes it only sounds like the Kron Prinz Karl and a scattering of Gasthausen, but at other times, it sounds like quite a lot of summer chalets.

Author:  MJKB [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
it might have been much more maddening for the locals, who were suddenly swamped with large numbers of visibly antagonistic schoolgirls in blue or brown!

Surely not! After all, the 'englekind' Robin and ythe adored 'Fraulein Joey' were among their numbers.

Author:  Alison H [ Wed May 19, 2010 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

That's a really interesting point! There must've been over 200 girls by the later Tyrol days, plus staff, and that's a lot of people for a small village: the school must've dominated the place. I'm sure that Herr Braun was very glad to've sold his unused chalet, the Pfeifens were glad that their children'd got jobs with good employers and whoever supplied food, toiletries etc did well out of the CS being there, but it really must've got a bit much for everyone else. I'm clearly just a grumpy old maid, but if I go anywhere and there's a school trip there I tend to groan :roll: , so finding hordes of schoolgirls using the lake for swimming or boat races or taking up all the best seats at concerts would have wound me up no end! You sit down to enjoy a nice bit of music by the lake, and someone tells you to shift out of the way because the front umpteen rows are reserved for the CS girls! & didn't the Catholic girls and mistresses go to services at the village church sometimes? It must've been standing room only for any poor local who walked in at the last minute!

Author:  Sarah Carr [ Thu May 20, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

Oh, I KNOW how the locals must have felt. I lived in a NASCAR town in NEw York for several years, so focused on tourism that it makes you gag! My husband and I called the tourists "terrorists!" You never have a place to park, you can't enjoy your own town's special events... you want to toss 'em all out on their ears! :banghead:

Author:  Mel [ Thu May 20, 2010 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

But surely in the depressed 1930s they would be glad of the work promoted by the two schools? It would have a knock on effect for builders, gardeners farmers, guides etc. It wouldn't just be Marie's family and Herr Braun who would benefit?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Fri May 21, 2010 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

TBH, I think that the lake is still dominated by tourists. When I was there, every other building was a hotel or gasthaus, and I certainly saw far, far more tourists than local people. You couldn't get away from them even up a mountain! So I rather suspect that, being such a beautiful part of Austria, it would always have attracted quite a few tourists, and it mightn't be such a big issue for the locals.

Author:  2nd Gen Fan [ Fri May 21, 2010 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

And of course having the school there as a year-round source of income rather than just seasonal tourists would make a big impact.

Author:  Fiona Mc [ Mon May 24, 2010 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Friendship- Rivals

I can understand that despite the added income, a few people would be annoyed about the schools. I know growing up in coastal town, you knew you needed the holiday makers over the summer to keep the town alive, but you were also glad they left at the end, especially the ruder ones who expected, the town to be a mini Melbourne. I know it's changed beyond recognition which is good in a lot of ways, though I do miss the old way.

I can see how Madge made sure of the lack of resentment by ensuring the staff were always treated well and they in turn would let people know that. It did ensure good relations between the locals and the Chalet School, especially when they also took Zita in at no extra cost to the family

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