The CBB :: View topic - Barbara- Family

Do people think it was fair for Beth to sacrifice her own career plans (she had been to Oxford and in school had expressed the ambition to be a gardener) to be a mother’s help/nursery governess for Joey so she was able to keep an eye on her sister?

Someone did once suggest that maybe Anne packed Beth off to Switzerland to get her away from an unsuitable boyfriend, though . :wink:

What exactly is supposed to be wrong with these girls? I suppose the boys are given a better education because that was just what happened then, but it does seem particularly unfair on Beth since, coming from a poor family, she would have more need than most girls (of her class) to work for her living.

the girls who go there are not the kind Anne wants for Beth’s friends. Most of them are silly, giggling little idiots with only two ideas in their heads—boys and the Pictures! The few others are kids who want to pass exams and go to jobs away from Guernsey. Our homes are here and we adore the place. Anne doesn’t want Beth to start turning up her nose at it. Then most of them come from little houses and Bethy lives in a big one and the little beasts call her sidey and rub it in. She really is miserable there, but Anne won’t see it. The kid’s getting a very fair education and she only goes for lessons. Peter takes her in the car and calls for her at the end of the day. She’s not allowed to go to tea with any of them nor invite them. She did at first, but Anne got such shocks that she put a stop to it.’
Nan looked troubled. ‘But—isn’t that—isn’t it—well—rather—‘
‘Snobby of Anne?’ It looks like it, I know; but it isn’t. We want Beth to be a little girl while she is a little girl. Most of those little idiots at Miss le Poidevin’s are trying to be grown-up and sophisticated.’

Maybe worth saying too - especially as regards the discussion of income elsewhere on the board - that the Chesters' poverty is of an extremely genteel variety. They still have a large house, a servant, and the income from Peter's apparently very good medical practice, but their investments were embezzled by a crooked solicitor, after they had had an extravagant year. There was an operation to pay for, but also a lot of top London hotels, a new rose-garden, a fur coat for Anne's birthday and a second car

I think in Exile we're told something like that her character had become warped or threatened to become so because of her 'bad' school - but surely this 'warpage' is arguably partly from loneliness, or from her parents telling her she's too good for her schoolmates (but somehow not 'good enough' to be sent anywhere else).

One thing I don't get in Barbara is how we're told that Julie and Nancy are besties and Vi thinks maybe she and Barbara could be the same. But I've never seen much sign of Nancy and Julie being particularly friendly within Bride and Tom's gang. Did EBD just make this friendship up as a 'precedent' for Vi and Barbara (which we also don't see much of)?

Although I agree with the criticism of Anne Chester's behaviour about Beth's school and so on, I think it's some very good writing on EBD's part because for once it is ambiguous - so often EBD's moral judgements are very black and white, but in this case we've a generally 'good' character making very bad judgments because of misplaced pride, and other 'good' characters clearly uncomfortable with it but reluctant to criticise too openly and making half-hearted excuses for her... it's all very real!

Beth's schooldays would make a brilliant GO book if told from the viewpoint of the other girls. A new girl is dropped off and collected by her dad in his car every day, whilst everyone else probably gets the bus or walks, and turns down any invitations to parties or to go to other people's houses for tea until they give up and stop asking her, and they all think she's a horrible snob and then it turns out that she's really a very nice person and it's just that her parents are snobs.

Of course, that kind of thing can work both ways, for example my maternal grandmother (born 1911 or 1912) got a scholarship to the local grammar school, only for her mother to refuse it on the grounds that my Nanny wasnt going to 'get ideas above her station' :shock:

I'd quite like to have seen that as a side story in the CS - bright but poor girl gets scholarship, only for her family to turn it down... can you imagine the look on Joey's face? :lol:

I'd quite like to have seen that as a side story in the CS - bright but poor girl gets scholarship, only for her family to turn it down... can you imagine the look on Joey's face? :lol:

Jack talks about Joan Baker being the sort of girl who leaves school at 15, but makes it sound as if that's due to lack of ambition or intelligence rather than simple economic necessity.

My grandma, b. 1913, won a scholarship to the local grammar school, and was allowed to go, but then she had to leave school at 14 to get a job, which was understandable but must have been very frustrating for her when presumably most of her classmates were able to stay on if they wanted to. Just to cross over with the "wealth" thread in AE, this is the sort of thing that CS people don't seem to understand. Not everyone has the option to "keep their daughters young". Jack talks about Joan Baker being the sort of girl who leaves school at 15, but makes it sound as if that's due to lack of ambition or intelligence rather than simple economic necessity.

It must have been difficult for Ros and she was very lucky to make the friends she did, but then she had an excellent home life and a supportive family behind her, which must have made a huge difference! I'd never read the La Rochelle series, but I've picked up a lot from the discussion, and now feel really sorry for Beth :cry:

Sorry for that being completely OT!

I was reading all the stories of people who weren't allowed educations 'above their station' (may I just say how much I admire you for getting to university, Cosimo's Jackal, after that!) when it suddenly hit home that I've known all along that's exactly how most of my family reacted, I'd just never equated it in quite those terms before. The entire side of my family on dad's side haven't spoken to me in about four years, ever since I announced that I was doing A-levels; might have been a couple of Christmas cards from my grandparents, but certainly nothing this year now that I'm at university and wasting my time on nothing

I think it's easy to make sweeping statements about "working class families tend to do this..." but I expect like most things, everyone's attitude to higher education depends on their own circumstances and experiences.

And, of course, the parental attitude of "what was good enough for me is good enough for my children" isn't exactly class specific! Joey could just have easily have expected Len to chuck university once she became engaged to Len; or what if Madge had expected Sybil, as her oldest daughter, to become a teacher and one day run the CS? Parental expectations can be dangerous things

Or is it only that Madge's daughters are older, so we see what happens after they leave school, whereas the triplets are still schoolgirls at the end of the series?

Didn't Josette plan to go to LSE at one point? I'm never sure whether it didn't have such a radical image in those days or whether EBD meant us to think that Josette was a left-wing intellectual :wink:

Josette is bright but even she (in the hardback) doesn't plan to to go Uni. She intends to train as a radiographer.

I’ll be eighteen in September, and she says that I can speak French and German and that I have my matric. I’m going in for radiology, but there won’t be a vacancy in the hospital I’m going to for training until next summer. That’s why I was going on to Millie’s, Now that Dad has to go to Adelaide for this big world conference, she’s going with him and taking Sybs and the twins, and she wants me as well.

Sybil's described as not being academic, and Ailie as not working very hard, but I definitely get the impression that Josette was clever.

But there wasn't anything to stop Sybil going to Kensington after she's been to Australia. In those days going to Australia would be an even bigger opportunity than it is now. But Sybil chose to get married - the same thing might have happened in England.

Including making the most exquisite baby clothes ever for her quadruplets :wink:

This really amazes me. I'm probably going to make very sweeping statements here, but generally speaking Irish people have always looked to education to get them out of poverty. My parents and grandparents came from families where some went on to training like teaching and the civil service and others either stayed working on farms, went into religious life or emigrated.

I do think that it's considerably less common for middle-class parents to transmit to their children worries about 'getting above their station', though.

Maybe EBD was trying to 'protect' the Russell clan in particular from feeling they had to live up to the examples set by their successful parents?

Margot tries to be a doctor and then becomes a nun, which is beyond reproof in CS-land. (I sometimes wonder whether Margot entered her order because there were already too many doctors in that generation? :lol:

)

The one thing I would change would be for EBD to be a bit more explicit about Vi's previous feelings towards Barbara - she makes a few tiny comments about Vi's vague feelings of dislike slipping away, and Barbara being different at school compared to the petted darling of her mother that she is at home etc. but it always reads to me as if there should be a bigger section somewhere that got expunged during editing.

I do kind of resent her making Anne look so bad, though (and I'm not sure how consistent the portrayal is with Anne's previous character, either). In Maids of La Rochelle she was my favourite of the Temple girls - Elizabeth is a gentle, motherly figure and Janie is good fun, but we see a lot of the story from Anne's POV and I always liked her the most.

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Barbara- Family
The Chalet School and Barbara was published in 1954. It was republished once in hardback and eight times in mass paperback. It was published the same year as Joey Goes to the Oberland and two non-Chalet School books: Nesta Steps out and Kennelmaid Nan. The Chalet School and Barbara is the first of the Swiss books (where we see the school not just the Maynard family) and is centred around a new girl to the school but not to us. We first meet Barbara Chester in Janie Steps in (Part of the La Rochelle series) as the youngest of Anne Chester’s children. She is extremely delicate and Dr Peter Chester baptised her on the spot as he thought she was about to die. Anne is extremely ill after her birth and the family lose all their money at the same time. It is only through the careful nursing of Javotte that Barbara lives, but she remains an extremely delicate and sickly child. Every time she teethes she ends up with bronchitis and due to the family’s financial situation, Anne is left caring for an extremely sick toddler along with raising her four older children. This causes an immense strain on Anne’s relationship with her eldest daughter Beth. Beth believes her mother doesn’t love her as much as Barbara as she sends Beth to a second rate private school whereas will (somewhat reluctantly) accept help to pay for Robin and Dickon’s education and allow Nancy to share a governess with the Lucy’s. Beth is also expected to help out with the younger children at the drop of a hat and all the older Chester children are expected to give way to Barbara in everything. By the end of Janie Steps In, Beth is somewhat reconciled with her mother and will accept the arrival of Janice in Goes to It. This is the first book we finally reunite with Barbara and see life from her point of view. Barbara caught the measles at the age of ten and manages to turn the corner health wise for the first time in her life, and finally at the age of fourteen is allowed to go to school for the first time. Her mother only agrees to send Barbara on the proviso she lives with the Maynards’ and goes to school daily rather than boards. She also agrees because Beth, her older sister will be a nursery governess and mother’s help to Joey and can also keep an eye on her. When Beth and Barbara arrive in Switzerland they are informed that the Maynard’s all have the measles and so Barbara will be a full blown boarder much to her delight. We follow her journey through the term and Barbara finds a new footing with her cousin Vi Lucy, makes friends with the gang and an enemy with Mary Woodley who is jealous of Barbara’s friendship with Vi. There is a blizzard on a walk, expeditions to go on, winter sports to enjoy and finally a Christmas play to wrap up the term’s events. So what did people think of this book? As per normal we are discussing a main theme of this book, which is family. What do people think of the family dynamics within the Chester family? Do people think it’s fair for all the children of the family (not only the Chesters but the Ozannes and Lucys) were taught to give way to Barbara simply because she was so ill, and how do you think it affected their relationship with Barbara or Barbara’s relationship with them? How well do people think Barbara coped with standing on her own two feet? Do people think it was fair for Beth to sacrifice her own career plans (she had been to Oxford and in school had expressed the ambition to be a gardener) to be a mother’s help/nursery governess for Joey so she was able to keep an eye on her sister? And finally, I know it’s not in this book, but Joey despite knowing all the problems within the Chester family (see Goes to it) makes the same mistake of insisting all the other children give way to the sick one (Margot), with the same thought that if she dies her life would be a happy one. Here we have two very different outcomes. Barbara insists on standing on her own two feet, is very sweet and good natured and does not come across as any worse for her spoiling. Margot on the other hand goes though a trial of fire of sorts in Theodora and learns the hard way that she can’t always be the centre of attention in her family. What do people think of these two very different scenarios and how well did EBD handle it? BTW if anyone thinks the above family comparison isn’t appropriate then please let me know and I’ll delete it or just ignore it.

Author:	Miss Di [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I feel so sorry for Beth in Janie Steps In. Barbara in that book really is a spoiled brat who deliberately spoils her sister's fun. So it's a wonder by Barbara's own book she has turned into a nice girl if woefully ignorant about school customs. Didn't her sisters and cousins talk to her during their school holidays? Maybe they didn't because they secretly still couldn't stand her?

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Fiona Mc wrote: Do people think it was fair for Beth to sacrifice her own career plans (she had been to Oxford and in school had expressed the ambition to be a gardener) to be a mother’s help/nursery governess for Joey so she was able to keep an eye on her sister? You know, that never even occurred to me! I always wondered why an Oxford graduate became nursery governess at Freudesheim, but I never thought about the possibility that Beth was there solely to look after Barbara, whether off her own bat or due to family pressure - Beth's early training was certainly to give in to Barbara in everything. It does make sense. If that's the case, I wonder Beth didn't beetle off again after the quarantine period ended, because Barbara was clearly adjusting fine as as a boarder? Would she have felt she needed to hang on in a job that doesn't look like much of a match for her education or ambitions just because of the possibility Barbara might need her? The Barbara we meet in Barbara has changed completely from Janie Steps In, and is the classic EBD recovering frail girl who wants to be like everyone else, and not mollycoddled. You only see hints of the fragile over-indulged child she was in things like it not occurring to her to clean up the bathroom after herself, and not being able to brush her own hair properly because her mother used to do it for her. (Which always struck me as a bit odd, because she has short curls, not long, heavy locks.) It's Beth who has the more interesting back-story, though, although we never really see any evidence of her past, which is quite dark for the CS. As well as being at Barbara's beck and call when she was ill, she would have been the right age to fully feel the Chesters' sudden poverty (or 'poverty') and to feel the injustice of relatives not being allowed to pay to send her to a good school, uinlike her siblings. Also, she must have had an awful time at her first school, where her family absolutely refused to allow her to socialise with her schoolmates because they disapprove of them. The other girls get blamed for their hostility to Beth because she lives in a big house, but the Chester parents don't seem to grasp that this must be at least partly the case because Beth isn't allowed to see them out of school hours, and so looks like a snob because she can't accept or issue invitations.

Author:	Alison H [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
This is one of my favourite Swiss books, possibly because it's the first one set at the Platz and so the lovely descriptions of the Jungfrau and the trip to Interlaken, and the getting lost in a blizzard plot, seem fresh and exciting. & it's good to see how someone who isn't "bad" and in need of "reform" can still have problems adapting to school life - dormitory rules, bitchiness from other girls, generally feeling shy because everyone else already knows each other, etc - just because she's not used to it: "good" new girls are usuaqlly expected to settle in straight away, and I find Barbara's experience more realistic and think that it's handled well. I think that OOAO's Gang come across quite well in this one. Annoying though it is that the mistresses seem to favour them over other girls (letting them stay together on trips), I like the way they "adopt" Barbara, and the way Vi sticks up for her in the row with Mary Woodley. I do feel very sorry for Beth. I appreciate that godparents were supposed to be sort of substitute parents, but I just can't accept that Anne's pride didn't stop her from accepting the Ozannes' offer to pay for the boys' school fees but did stop her from accepting the Lucys' offer to pay for Beth's, which IIRC was on the grounds that Paul Ozanne was the boys' godfather as well as their uncle but Julian Lucy was "only" Beth's uncle and wasn't also her godfather. & then Anne and Peter wouldn't let Beth socialise with people at her "second-rate" school. It's no wonder she felt hard done by. We don't see Barbara's development from being an annoying little kid to being a nice teenager, but certainly she turns out much better than teenage Margot does. It's interesting that Vi seems to've found young Barbara annoying, which is very realistic, but that we never hear Josette or Maeve criticise Margot. I don't think we even ever hear Madge criticise Margot, even though Joey is quick to point out Sybil's faults. The way Margot turns out is, sadly, probably a lot more realistic!

Author:	Tor [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I really enjoyed this book when reading as a child, although I don't return to it much. The one thing that always gets me, though, is that the story never developed as I thought it was. I thought it would be much more of the new-girl takes a while to shake down ilk, especially when she is forced to board straight off, but Barbara has few character flaws really. I was always a bit disappointed by that, to be honest. The picture on the front cover of my Armada (which is possibly the only CS paperback to actually depict a blizzard rescue?) looked very promising on that front. I was hoping for Eustacia take two. A fitting return to the mountains, thought I I was also rather excited to see Beth again. I always liked Beth, and was hoping to hear about her gardening career (I liked the contrast between her girly beauty and her ambitions; it was something EBD seemed to start to develop with Marie von Eschenau with things like the boating race etc etc but then abandoned by marrying her off quick smart). I was immediately perplexed by her going to work as a nursery governess. In fact, this might have been the book that first drew the possibility of EBDisms to my attention. I searched high and low through my other books to see if I had made an error in my character assessment of Beth. Not that this is an EBDism, exactly, but it certainly indicated inconsistency to my young mind. I hadn't read any La Rochelle books until they were reprinted by GGB, and even then I only read the first few, so I don't really feel I have much sense of the Chester's outside of the CS books. But I was horrified by what was said about Beth's education in Exile/Goes to it.

The CBB http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/

Barbara- Family http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7540

Author:	Jennie [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
In 'Janie Steps In', Janie Lucy does try to make the Chesters, especially her sister Anne, see how wrong they are in the way they treat Beth, and she does do something to help Beth, by not insisting that Beth leaves her fun in the sea to come and amuse Barbara. I think that Barbara cannot be blamed for believing that everyone should give way to her, as she thinks it's normal, it's quite clear that Anne Chester is the person who is at fault in this.

Author:	Pado [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Maybe it was Beth who was responsible for the transformation of Jack and Joey's garden from its previous state of neglect to the oft-praised lawn of later years?

Author:	Llywela [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I think it is made pretty clear in the book that Beth has already been acting as governess for Barbara at home since she left Oxford, getting her ready to start school, and that taking the job with the Maynards is pretty much an extension of that - allowing her to remain close to Barbara in case of need, so the appointment is convenient for both families. She isn't giving up a career as a gardener for the Maynard job; she has already either thought better of the whole thing or put it on the backburner for a while, because family came first. It might be a little sad that the career she'd hoped for as a teenager hasn't panned out, but there could be all kinds of reasons for that. It does look on the surface as if she has given up her ambitions because her family needed her, but she seems perfectly happy and content, whether she has chosen this course out of a sense of family duty or because she genuinely wanted to - there is no hint of regret. She might have got to Oxford, started studying horticulture (or whatever) and realised that it wasn't for her after all. A lot of teenagers have grand ambitions that they never fulfil because something else gets in the way or they realise that the reality doesn't live up to their expectations.

Author:	Tor [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I love the idea that she sorted the Freudesheim garden out Pado!

Author:	MJKB [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I'm a little confused, what did Beth study at Oxford?

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I don't think we're told: she'd've been there during the gap between Rosalie and Three Go. When she was younger, she planned to go into horticulture, but I don't think we ever hear any more about her plans, or whether her degree (assuming she graduated) was linked to horticulture (botany?). Not sure offhand how old Beth was by the start of Barbara, but Daisy, who was the same age, had qualified as a doctor well before then. Someone did once suggest that maybe Anne packed Beth off to Switzerland to get her away from an unsuitable boyfriend, though .

Author:	RubyGates [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Alison H wrote: Someone did once suggest that maybe Anne packed Beth off to Switzerland to get her away from an unsuitable boyfriend, though . . Ah yes, for "unsuitable" read "is not a doctor, has no private income"

Author:	Loryat [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I quite liked this book though not having read any La Rochelle books or even known that they existed, I found all the references to them very confusing (also in Exile). I like Barbara and think the story bubbles along quite nicely. It's a shame that she isn't in the later books, and I'd also have liked to see more about her friendship with Vi. Though that never made much sense to me as it always seemed pretty clear that Vi was ML's best friend. I do think it's a shame that we don't see more of Beth in this book, as well. It seems such a waste to bring her back and then more or less forget about her. However, I don't see Beth's not being a gardener as having anything to do with family pressures. If she had still wanted to be a gardener later on, presumably she would have gone to the gardening college (Elmhurst or I am getting that completely wrong) EBD's always going on about, rather than Oxford. I think Beth is simply supposed to be one of those middle/upper class girls who gets an expensive education and then does nothing with it. Long after Barbara presumably has no need of Beth, she's still working as nursery governess, which implies it's her own choice. She only stops to get married. I do feel very sorry for the way Beth is treated. Though I haven't read any La Rochelle, I was always very annoyed by the reference in Exile to Beth's school, where EBD is seemingly blatantly snobbish about Beth's schoolmates. What exactly is supposed to be wrong with these girls? I suppose the boys are given a better education because that was just what happened then, but it does seem particularly unfair on Beth since, coming from a poor family, she would have more need than most girls (of her class) to work for her living. I don't really remember any specific references to Margot being spoiled in the books. We only ever hear about it in retrospect, when people say that they 'feared they might not raise' Margot and they gave in to her. But we never see that at the time, and definitely I never get the impression that the other children are encouraged to give into her. When Margot fights with the others in Rescue, she is punished.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Loryat wrote: What exactly is supposed to be wrong with these girls? I suppose the boys are given a better education because that was just what happened then, but it does seem particularly unfair on Beth since, coming from a poor family, she would have more need than most girls (of her class) to work for her living. The attitude to Beth's school is awful. Everyone keeps stressing that it's private, small and gives a decent education for low fees, but Quote: the girls who go there are not the kind Anne wants for Beth’s friends. Most of them are silly, giggling little idiots with only two ideas in their heads—boys and the Pictures! The few others are kids who want to pass exams and go to jobs away from Guernsey. Our homes are here and we adore the place. Anne doesn’t want Beth to start turning up her nose at it. Then most of them come from little houses and Bethy lives in a big one and the little beasts call her sidey and rub it in. She really is miserable there, but Anne won’t see it. The kid’s getting a very fair education and she only goes for lessons. Peter takes her in the car and calls for her at the end of the day. She’s not allowed to go to tea with any of them nor invite them. She did at first, but Anne got such shocks that she put a stop to it.’ Nan looked troubled. ‘But—isn’t that—isn’t it—well—rather—‘ ‘Snobby of Anne?’ It looks like it, I know; but it isn’t. We want Beth to be a little girl while she is a little girl. Most of those little idiots at Miss le Poidevin’s are trying to be grown-up and sophisticated.’ What drives me crazy is that it is quite clearly snobbery, and EBD knows it is, but has Janie refuting it rather unconvincingly. Even though she condemns the Chester parents for not accepting the offer of a relative to send Beth to a better school, Janie actually defends their reasoning for not allowing Beth to see her schoolmates outside class. And the 'we don't want her to turn her nose up at Guernsey' thing is silly. It's lovely that the Chesters and their relatives love the island, but after all they've chosen to come and live there from a privileged position, and having lived and trained for prestigious professions elsewhere - it seems unfair to deny the same privilege to ambitious islander schoolchildren! And you could only feel sorry for poor Beth, who was allowed to socialise with her schoolmates at the beginning until her parents put a stop to it, and then presumably was viewed as a terrible snob and had a miserable time of it at school, through no fault of her own. I think in Exile we're told something like that her character had become warped or threatened to become so because of her 'bad' school - but surely this 'warpage' is arguably partly from loneliness, or from her parents telling her she's too good for her schoolmates (but somehow not 'good enough' to be sent anywhere else). Maybe worth saying too - especially as regards the discussion of income elsewhere on the board - that the Chesters' poverty is of an extremely genteel variety. They still have a large house, a servant, and the income from Peter's apparently very good medical practice, but their investments were embezzled by a crooked solicitor, after they had had an extravagant year. There was an operation to pay for, but also a lot of top London hotels, a new rose-garden, a fur coat for Anne's birthday and a second car!

Author:	judithR [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Maybe worth saying too - especially as regards the discussion of income elsewhere on the board - that the Chesters' poverty is of an extremely genteel variety. They still have a large house, a servant, and the income from Peter's apparently very good medical practice, but their investments were embezzled by a crooked solicitor, after they had had an extravagant year. There was an operation to pay for, but also a lot of top London hotels, a new rose-garden, a fur coat for Anne's birthday and a second car This has always annoyed me about the La Rochelle series. Even allowing for it to be 1920s & governess education Elizabeth & Anne were women, 23 & 21 respectively, in Maids. One would have though they could have found some employment - possibly with Miss climpson!

Author:	Loryat [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I never liked the occasional mentions of Beth's school and that excerpt is worse. It would be different if someone said 'oh the education's good but in other ways so-and-so is awfully lax and the girls have no discipline', because then it would be more a criticism of the school. But the idea that Beth shouldn't associate with any of the girls is just snobbery pure and simple. I can't believe there wouldn't be one girl with morals that Beth could befriend, and I really don't see what would be wrong with her befriending any of the ambitious brainy girls either. After that upbringing, if I was Beth I'd probably take the first chance I could to leave the island too! As for the idea that the girls think Beth is 'sidey' for coming from a big house, I would have said it's far more likely to be down to the fact that she isn't allowed to associate with any of them. And to say they want to 'keep Beth a little girl' while simultaneously doing all they can to make her bitter before her time, if they can't see the contradiction, how stupid are they?

Author:	RubyGates [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I get SOO frustrated with the Chesters! Poor Beth seems to bear the brunt of her parents' "poverty" yet Anne is so blind she can't or won't see how it affects Beth. I know they love Guernsey and their house etc but if they can't afford to run a big house why not sell it and move somewhere smaller? They don't have the sort of income any more that the other families in their social circle do so just bite the bullet, sell up and move somewhere else. I don't have any patience or sympathy with Anne Chester at all. She's a bit of a spineless jellyfish who could do something to make their situation better but she won't. Having ranted that I do like the book "Barbara" and I think Beth has turned into a really nice person, obviously all thanks to the CS influence. I think Barbara is a well-drawn character who copes really well with the transition from Mummy's pet to standing-on-her-own-feet schoolgirl. I also think the "vague dislike" that Vi had always felt towards her cousin very realistic and the fact that as Barbara comes out of her mother's shadow Vi realises she's actually quite a nice person.

Author:	Cat C [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I really like Barbara too (except for the bits about her joining the gang...) The thing that strikes me as funny now is Matey's insistence that she brushes her curly hair thoroughly. These days people with short curly hair are told only to ever comb it (if at all) when wet, to avoid it all going frizzy. Is this something that's come about because of more frequent hair-washing? Or was frizzy the look in the 50s?!

Author:	GotNerd [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
When I curl my hair I brush it out without disastrous consequences. When it's freshly washed, it frizzes rather, but if you keep brushing, it really isn't very bad, and it dies down after not very long. The longer it's been since washing, the less frizziness. Another thing to bear in mind is that defined curls are in nowadays. Back then, the fashion was much more for soft wavy curls than neat corkscrews. Compare this: http://hairstyleschat.com/wp-content/uploads//827/beautiful-curly-hair.jpg to these: http://beautyisathingofthepast.blogspot.com/2009/10/album-of-hair-dos-for-spring.html

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Quote: I think in Exile we're told something like that her character had become warped or threatened to become so because of her 'bad' school - but surely this 'warpage' is arguably partly from loneliness, or from her parents telling her she's too good for her schoolmates (but somehow not 'good enough' to be sent anywhere else). The warpage is said to come more from Beth feeling like her Mother doesn't love her any more. In Janie Step's In its a real issue and Beth is inconsolable when she has mumps because her mother can't see her bacause of Barbara and there is an incident with Beth's paintbox which is destroyed by Julie and Nancy and Janie actually has a go at Anne over her treatment of Beth about it all and says that regardless of whether Beth is the maligned party she can do nothing right in her mother's eyes and Anne's eyes are opened when she realises how much her daughter looks to her Auntie Janie for support and love, not her mother.

Author:	Kirsty [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I've just finished a re-read o the La Rochelles, and have firmly decided that I don't like Anne Chester at all for her treatment of both Beth and Barbara (the boys don't get much screen-time). Beth was old enough to know that things were wrong/different with losing the money, but not old enough to be able to understand what it really meant to the family (that sentence was going somewhere, but I got lost ). All she could see was that she was a distinctly 2nd-place in her parent's affextions. And with Barbara being so ill from birth Anne's time was completely taken up with her & she doesn't seem to have noticed how much damage she was doing to Beth's personality. And not even Janie's wakeup call seemed to change much for long. I'm in agreeance with someone up-thread, who said that Margot is the more sensible/realistic outcome of being pandered to as a child, and for most of her young life, than Barbara was. It would be very hard to break that early "conditioning" that "I come first, last & always" to the rest of the family. (Slightly OT: Have seen this from the outside, with family friends. Child had no discipline as a baby/toddler & was a self-centred brat who expected everyone to cater to her evrey whim. Mum's new partner didn't bow down to her tantrums & general sulkiness & after a couple of years she's much less self-centred. 2 new sisters & a multitude of cousins probably helped, as she's no longer be-all & end-all of mum's world).

Author:	Loryat [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
One thing I don't get in Barbara is how we're told that Julie and Nancy are besties and Vi thinks maybe she and Barbara could be the same. But I've never seen much sign of Nancy and Julie being particularly friendly within Bride and Tom's gang. Did EBD just make this friendship up as a 'precedent' for Vi and Barbara (which we also don't see much of)?

Author:	Cel [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Although I agree with the criticism of Anne Chester's behaviour about Beth's school and so on, I think it's some very good writing on EBD's part because for once it is ambiguous - so often EBD's moral judgements are very black and white, but in this case we've a generally 'good' character making very bad judgments because of misplaced pride, and other 'good' characters clearly uncomfortable with it but reluctant to criticise too openly and making half-hearted excuses for her... it's all very real! On Margot... although she could theoretically fit into the Barabara-mould, I don't think we actually see much evidence of her being spoiled as a young child, or of the others being made to give in to her because of her delicacy. I know Joey at one stage claims that this has happened, but it seems like a slight revision of history... On the occasions when we see her misbehaving, she tends to be punished as thoroughly as anyone else.

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Loryat wrote: One thing I don't get in Barbara is how we're told that Julie and Nancy are besties and Vi thinks maybe she and Barbara could be the same. But I've never seen much sign of Nancy and Julie being particularly friendly within Bride and Tom's gang. Did EBD just make this friendship up as a 'precedent' for Vi and Barbara (which we also don't see much of)? IIRC, when Julie had appendicitis we're told that someone belatedly remembered that Nancy would be very upset, as well as Julie's sisters, because they were like twin cousins.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Cel wrote: Although I agree with the criticism of Anne Chester's behaviour about Beth's school and so on, I think it's some very good writing on EBD's part because for once it is ambiguous - so often EBD's moral judgements are very black and white, but in this case we've a generally 'good' character making very bad judgments because of misplaced pride, and other 'good' characters clearly uncomfortable with it but reluctant to criticise too openly and making half-hearted excuses for her... it's all very real! I'd see EBD as wobbling a bit here, actually (though I like the fact that it's not a black and white situation, too). Janie is clearly definitely speaking for EBD when she condemns the false pride of the Chester parents which deprives Beth of a better education, but I'm not sure that she isn't also intended to be genuinely arguing that their condemnation of Beth's schoolmates is not, in fact, snobbish, though it looks that way at first - I think EBD expects the reader to accept the reasoning about the over-sophistication, boys and pictures, and critical approach to Guernsey as justified. She goes on about 'keeping girls young' and disliking boy talk and the pictures more than once elsewhere. But I do think EBD is signalling her unease with the Chesters' decisions in general when she makes it plain that part of the reason they're so 'poor' is not just due to paying for Paul's operation, but for fripperies like a new rose garden and a fur coat! I think if she was fully behind them, she would have made them be poor entirely due to medical bills.

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Beth's schooldays would make a brilliant GO book if told from the viewpoint of the other girls. A new girl is dropped off and collected by her dad in his car every day, whilst everyone else probably gets the bus or walks, and turns down any invitations to parties or to go to other people's houses for tea until they give up and stop asking her, and they all think she's a horrible snob and then it turns out that she's really a very nice person and it's just that her parents are snobs (do we find out what Beth herself thinks of her classmates)? To some extent, Mary-Lou has similar problems when she lives in Polquenel, before Clem and Tony move into the area. She isn't put in the horrible position of going to a school where her family's attitude makes her the odd one out and disliked by everyone else, but she isn't allowed to make friends because her gran seems to consider that the Trelawneys are a cut above everyone else in the village and that it's better for Mary-Lou to have no friends than to have the "wrong" sort of friends. & I get the feeling that it was the same for Polly and Lala when they lived in Yorkshire, although they at least had each other.

Author:	RoseCloke [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Of course, that kind of thing can work both ways, for example my maternal grandmother (born 1911 or 1912) got a scholarship to the local grammar school, only for her mother to refuse it on the grounds that my Nanny wasnt going to 'get ideas above her station' I'd quite like to have seen that as a side story in the CS - bright but poor girl gets scholarship, only for her family to turn it down... can you imagine the look on Joey's face?

Author:	abbeybufo [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Alison H wrote: Beth's schooldays would make a brilliant GO book if told from the viewpoint of the other girls. A new girl is dropped off and collected by her dad in his car every day, whilst everyone else probably gets the bus or walks, and turns down any invitations to parties or to go to other people's houses for tea until they give up and stop asking her, and they all think she's a horrible snob and then it turns out that she's really a very nice person and it's just that her parents are snobs. wanders in, sprinkles liberal bunny food round Alison, wanders off whistling nonchalantly ...

Author:	MJKB [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
I must read the La Rochelleseries. I'm really curious now about Beth's early schooling. Btw, were their fortunes restored at the end of the series to allow Beth go to the CS? I don't think I like the sound of Anne Chester.

Author:	Llywela [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
RoseCloke wrote: Of course, that kind of thing can work both ways, for example my maternal grandmother (born 1911 or 1912) got a scholarship to the local grammar school, only for her mother to refuse it on the grounds that my Nanny wasnt going to 'get ideas above her station' I'd quite like to have seen that as a side story in the CS - bright but poor girl gets scholarship, only for her family to turn it down... can you imagine the look on Joey's face? That's pretty much what happened to my mother, in fact. She took the 11+ in the early 60s, got the highest score in the whole county, and was offered a scholarship to a private girls grammar school in town, very prestigious. But the family were poor as church mice - her mum had died a couple of years earlier, and her dad (a lowly electrician) had had a nervous breakdown in the aftermath, and they were living back with his parents, who also had no money at all. Although the scholarship covered school fees and uniform, there were all kinds of extras that weren't covered, and the family just couldn't run to it, so my granddad turned it down. Would definitely make a good CS story...but rather a short one.

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Something along those lines happens to Ally, the elder sister of the heroine of Lorna Hill's Vicarage Children books. Her family are middle-class but are short of cash, and she gets some sort of scholarship to a posh school but ends up feeling out of place because she hasn't got the "right" sort of clothes for parties etc. & Rosamund Lilley was worried that she wouldn't fit in at the CS because they were "all young ladies" there. Being the odd one out at school is horrible, whatever the reason. & I can understand that parents in less well off families might have been worried that children who won scholarships might come to feel detached from the rest of the family, although it doesn't seem to worry the Lilleys. My grandma, b. 1913, won a scholarship to the local grammar school, and was allowed to go, but then she had to leave school at 14 to get a job, which was understandable but must have been very frustrating for her when presumably most of her classmates were able to stay on if they wanted to. Just to cross over with the "wealth" thread in AE, this is the sort of thing that CS people don't seem to understand. Not everyone has the option to "keep their daughters young". Jack talks about Joan Baker being the sort of girl who leaves school at 15, but makes it sound as if that's due to lack of ambition or intelligence rather than simple economic necessity. I think it's very sad that Beth and Mary-Lou weren't even allowed to try to make friends, though, especially when Beth had to spend 7 hours a day with the other girls. She must have dreaded getting up every day .

Author:	Fiona Mc [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
RoseCloke wrote: I'd quite like to have seen that as a side story in the CS - bright but poor girl gets scholarship, only for her family to turn it down... can you imagine the look on Joey's face? I know AlisonH wrote a drabble about Marie and Anderas's daughter Gretchen wanting to go for a scholarship and go to a Grammer school only to be told no because it was above her station. I remeber being stunned as my parents were working class and dad wanted us to do well in school and not end up with a job like his. I couldn't believe Marie or Anderas didn't want something better for their daughter. Re: Beth's school, I wonder if all girls were like they said or whether some went along with it to just fit in. I wonder if Beth did, but given her parent snobbery had a harder time fitting in not being allowed to see them after school. Given how she felt about her parents she may have rebelled. Quote: Jack talks about Joan Baker being the sort of girl who leaves school at 15, but makes it sound as if that's due to lack of ambition or intelligence rather than simple economic necessity. I can see why Jack thought that, as Joan was 1-2 years older than the rest of her form, had never worked previously at her old school and only wanted to go to the Chalet School because she was jealous Rosamund got the scholarship. If Joan genuinely wanted to stay at school, she would have worked much harder than she did and been in a form of girls her own age (at her old school she wasn't either).

Author:	Mel [ Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
In some of Michelle Magorian's books, there are bright children who pass the eleven plus to go to Grammar School but have a disapproving parent. Spoonful of Jam? Just Henry? More the idea that what was good enough for us.. It is not the working class ethos that I know, where parents were usually pleased for their children to get on.

Author:	Llywela [ Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Barbara- Family
Alison H wrote: My grandma, b. 1913, won a scholarship to the local grammar school, and was allowed to go, but then she had to leave school at 14 to get a job, which was understandable but must have been very frustrating for her when presumably most of her classmates were able to stay on if they wanted to. Just to cross over with the "wealth" thread in AE, this is the sort of thing that CS people don't seem to understand. Not everyone has the option to "keep their daughters young". Jack talks about Joan Baker being the sort of girl who leaves school at 15, but makes it sound as if that's due to lack of ambition or intelligence rather than simple economic necessity. nods Something similar happened to my grandmother (born 1917) - she was a bright girl and doing really well at school, but her mother died when she was 14 and she had to leave school at once to keep house for her father and younger brother. That, however, is something that the CS people do understand, although the girls in the stories who have to leave school for family reasons tend to be older than 14. I suppose it just drives home how wide the class difference still was back then - more recently than we probably tend to realise these days.