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Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
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Author:  JB [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
This is the first of our themed discussions on the Chalet School series, where rather than going through the series again in order, we’re taking each title in turn and focusing on a specific element of the book. Please do join with other comments and questions; we felt it would be good to take a different slant to discussions but we don’t want to restrict them!

The Chalet School in Exile was published by Chambers in 1940 and was one of the earliest Armada editions of the series in 1967, with a key chapter missing. There were six different paperback editions of the book before GGB published the full text in 2003. It has recently been reprinted to mark the 50th anniversary of the outbreak of World War II and the GGB site is http://www.ggbp.co.uk.

This summary is taken from the back of the GGB edition and comes from an advert for the series which appeared in EBD’s reprints in 1941:

Quote:
“The Chalet School, after a dozen years’ flourishing existence, is stricken by the war. The invasion of Austria brings the school under the Nazi overlords, the pupils are scattered and it becomes impossible to continue the work in such surroundings. Eventually those who are left take flight to the Channel Islands, where the school is established temporarily.

The war apart, The Chalet School in Exile resounds with an event of the very greatest importance for the school’s history. Of course, Jo is concerned in this – but more must not be said here.”


This event is, of course, the birth of the Maynard triplets. Joey and Jack have known each other since she was a teenage schoolgirl who visited his family home and, after he joins the San, we see them become good friends. After a close escape from a small Nazi spy and despite of all Joey’s assurances that she wants to be the family’s “maiden aunt”, they become engaged after Joey realises what a “solid lump of comfort he is”. They’re married when they reach Guernsey after their flight from Austria.

As a child, did you like the romance element or did you prefer to concentrate on the school?
Do you feel the engagement was a natural development of their friendship?
Did you see the hints coming in earlier books?
Did anyone read the book without knowing that Joey and Jack married each other?
Do you like the glimpses we see of their relationship and early married life?
How does the romance here compare to EBD’s other romances, both those where we see the proposal scene and those where it’s love at first sight?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Shall I kick us off?

I really like the romance in 'Exile' now - though as a child, I refused to read any but the Tirol books, and this officially marked the end of them so it was never read at all! I think that it is beautifully written, very subtle but at the same time touchingly drawn, and I think that although sudden, if you don't know to look for the hints in earlier books, it does seem very natural.

I think that it compares very well to that of Madge and Jem - though clearly Joey didn't need her man to prove himself quite so much - who we again see as more friends than anything else before their engagement. As a small sidenote, I do like the interaction we see between Madge and Jem in this book, as well, it seems to me to be a very loving marriage without the need for overtly romantic gestures.

I do often feel quite sad for Joey; although not an unusual situation to be in at the time, I can well imagine how lonely and vulnerable she felt, even with Anna to help and Madge and Jem nearby, being pregnant and not knowing if Jack would ever come back to her or not. I also feel very sad for Jack, who must have missed so much of the triplets' young lives - again, I know that it wasn't uncommon, but it is so sad.

I've gone completely off topic, sorry. To conclude this essay :oops:; I think that 'Exile' could be classed as more of an 'adult' book than the ones preceding it, but I think that that's very fitting for its content, and reading it now I do very much enjoy it. The romance seems very natural to me, and, dare I say it, much better written than some of the later romances in the books.
Author:  Abi [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I don't think I took ever so much notice of the romance when I read this as a child - I already knew that Jack and Joey ended up together as I read some of the later books before, and I think I always saw the adventurous part as the main plot of the book, with the SLOC bit and the triplets being born etc as just a vaguely interesting aside.

Now, of course, I do see the hints and like the way the relationship is portrayed, though I don't think it's quite such a convincing romance as Madge and Jem's - it just isn't given as much time. Of course the missing chapter helps a lot, but I've only read it a couple of times with that (as opposed to a couple of dozen without!) so it doesn't quite fit properly into my head yet.
Author:  Carrie A [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I am currently reading Exile at the moment - I tend to work through my books in order before starting again! It is the paperback version and I did not read it as a child, only as a grown up.

In my paperback version it jumps from the escape over the border into Switzerland to ten months later and Jo and Jack are married. Is it the same in the hardback? Or does EBD describe the marriage ceremony?

It is one of my favourites, mainly because it is quite exciting. However, all the business with the little boy Hermann seems a bit far fetched - was there a reason for the Gestapo to be interested in the school? Or was it just British people in general? I know that several British wives married to German men did remain in Germany during the war.

Joey and Jack's relationship seems to be quite unromantic in some ways, he often seems to be scolding her (she mustn't get hysterical or anything). I like the way that she holds her head up though in front of Grizel being dismissive of her engagement.

One thing has always puzzled me - at the end when Frieda and Bruno turn up, Frieda doesn't know about the triplets. But a few pages earlier, Jo says that she has had a letter from Frieda congratulating her on being 'a mamma of three'. Is this just another EBDism?
Author:  cestina [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Which chapter is missing please? I have only ever read my original hardback copy of Exile.

I adored it up to the time they reach safety in Switzerland. But the sudden leap to Guernsey has always made me feel that the rest of the book really doesn't seem to fit properly. It always feels like the start of another book, tacked on. The first part, especially the escape, spoke to me very closely as my mother must have had not dissimilar adventures when she whisked my Jewish grandmother, her mother-in-law to be, out of Nazi Czechoslovakia.

I can't remember ever being surprised that Jack and Joey made a match of it but to me that was very secondary to the events around the attack on Herr Goldman (is that his name - book is in England?) and the plans to close the Sanatorium and move it and the school.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Carrie A wrote:
In my paperback version it jumps from the escape over the border into Switzerland to ten months later and Jo and Jack are married. Is it the same in the hardback? Or does EBD describe the marriage ceremony?


Sadly, Armada cut out a chapter, 'Hey for England' - although it doesn't describe the marriage ceremony, it shows Joey and Jack in Switzerland before they move to England. In it, Jack does mention all of the "red tape" to be got through for their marriage.

I think that Jack always scolding gives it a realistic edge; this was still in the days of stiff-upper-lipped men who couldn't be too fond in public, and I imagine that for most of the book he had far better things to worry him than a hysterical fiance.

As to the Frieda dilemma, I think that could just be an EBDism.
Author:  JB [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Carrie A wrote:

Quote:
In my paperback version it jumps from the escape over the border into Switzerland to ten months later and Jo and Jack are married. Is it the same in the hardback? Or does EBD describe the marriage ceremony?


In the hardback and GGB editions, there's an extra chapter called "Hey for England" (which is a bit odd as they're in Switzerland and leave for Guernsey at the end of the chapter). Jack, Joey, Robin and Miss Wilson are in Switzerland and they pack up and get the train en route to Guernsey. Not a lot happens. There's no description of the wedding.
Author:  Alison H [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
So much happens in Exile - which is more like two books than one - that the romance never seems like that much of an issue. EBD clearly wanted to keep Jo in the series, and the two most obvious ways of doing that were for her (Jo) either to become a teacher or for her to marry someone who worked at the San. Also, I get the impression EBD kind of liked the idea of marrying a nice SLOC-ish doctor and living happily ever after, and wanted that for her main character. So she paired her off with Jack, and there had to be some element of romance before they actually announced their engagement. There are various hints in some of the previous books about Jack liking Joey, but it never quite works for me in the way that Madge getting together with Jem does. However, it's the same with most other CS couples. The only times we really see romances develop are with Madge and Jem, Gillian and Peter (and even then it's only in the hb) and Grizel and Neil.

There seems to be more affection and even dependency than romance. Calling someone a SLOC is very sweet, but it's not exactly a first flush of passion type comment. Then we get Jack talking about wanting the right to "take care" of Joey, and Joey clinging to him during the escape from Austria. It's all very nice, but early on in a relationship, even between two people who have known each other a long time and even under such difficult circumstances, you might expect a bit more romance.

I do wish we'd seen the wedding. I know it's all been said before, and I accept that a) the book was long enough already and b) EBD might have found it difficult to show such an emotional day from her main character's viewpoint, but the book could always have been split in two, and Janie and Julian Lucy's wedding is portrayed beautifully in the La Rochelle series.

Just on Exile generally, I think EBD was very brave to write this book. Some authors writing children's books at the time just ignored the Nazis and the War. I know that she was in a difficult situation because the school was in Austria, but she could have many any excuse to move the school to Britain - saying that Madge and Jem wanted to be near a suitable prep school for David and Rix, for example. It's an amazing book, it really is.
Author:  Miss Di [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Alison you are right, Exile really is an amazing book. It was one of the first (if not the first) children's books to mention "Jew Baiting" and the concentration camps.

But romance... well I think the Jack Joey thing had been set up gently. When they go on the picnic to hide the Peace League document it is Jack, not any of the other doctors Joey asks to accompany them. And you know, I just can't see Joey being romantic and gushy!
Author:  mohini [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I liked Exile but did not pay much attention to the romance part.
It was a surprise to read Jo getting married to Jack. I could not remember any hints been given in the earlier books
(Though when I read them again there were hints).
Though even today I find it difficult to imagine people falling in love with those whom they knew as kids.
I mean even today if when I meet someone whom I knew as a small kid (the age difference between us more than 15 years) I find it difficult to speak as an adult. I feel as if he/she is still a small kid
Did you understand what I am trying to say?

And I did not understand why Jack should choose Joey?
There were pretty girls in school and as such Jack and Joey must have met each other only in holidays and Jack must have been busy in the san.
Author:  Sunglass [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
What I actually kind of like about the Jack-Joey romance in Exile is precisely that it is overshadowed to a certain extent by all the various traumas and upheavals of the rest of the novel. (I mean, I'd love to have seen the wedding, obviously, but I think EBD's writing is at its best when it's at it's most thickly-plotted and event-filled, as it is here, so that there simply isn't time to do that slightly maddening slow-mo thing she does in the later Swiss books where the world stops for a detailed description of how to hold your lacrosse stick...)

I've banged on on the CBB in the past about how I continue to find it bizarre that we are essentially surprised by their relationship - we're placed in the position of an apparently astonished Madge closing the door, and then a disbelieving Grizel hearing of the engagement from Robin. To me it's quite significant that we encounter so little of the relationship directly - none at all from Joey's POV - despite the fact that Joey is the protagonist and we've mostly been inside her head out of all CS characters since School At. But I think, because Exile is so crowded with major sociopolitical events, it works OK, because there simply isn't time to dwell on the absence of any real lead-up to the 'solid lump of comfort' moment, or even a clue, really. (I don't count Jo inviting Jack to come along on the picnic, because he's featured so often before in just Useful Doctor mode.)

I'd agree with Alison H that their relationship is a matter of affection, familiarity and dependence (at least from Joey's POV), rather than passion, but that that's the way EBD thinks relationships should be - female dependency and male strength with a lot of mutual teasing. (And the presence of massive families suggests there's no lack of sex, I suppose. :shock: ) I mean, I like the teasing in Joey and Jack's relationship - and I think she means it as code for a very 'modern' marriage of equals - and I adore that bit (I think cut from the paperback) when they're trying to get out of Austria and Jack, all stubbly, asks if Joey will still marry him with a beard and she says 'shamelessly' that she'd marry him if he were bald! Though that 'shameless' exclamation is followed by her saying that then they can 'stick together' permanently, which brings things back to the 'solid lump of comfort' plane.

But (as with Len and Reg), EBD says several times things like 'Jack had long known what Joey meant to him' - I do find myself wanting, I think legitimately, to know what exactly she did mean to him. Why does he fall for her? He's been in love with her for years, apparently, despite her being so young, but it's even less clear how he's switched in her mind from being an almost-relative who at one point lived at Die Rosen, to a potential husband...
Author:  JB [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Alison H wrote:

Quote:
It's an amazing book, it really is.


I agree with you, Alison. Each time I read it, I’m amazed at her writing about concentration camps, etc in a children’s book published so early in the war. There are a lot of small things cut from the Armada edition and when I read the full text, I find it even more moving.

I can’t see Joey as gushy and romantic – and I can’t think of any EBD heroines who are. I agree with Sunglass that EBD sees teasing as a sign of a modern marriage. Janie and Julian Lucy have a similar relationship, and are another couple who’ve known each other since they were teenagers.

We do see a slight softening of Joey’s attitude towards marriage. By New House, she’s moved a little from her “maiden aunt” comment to saying to Marie that if it (marriage) happens, it will.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
As a "modern" child, I didn't find 'Exile' very exciting (though I never was one for adventure, I always preferred a good romance), but I agree that it was very daring for its time. On the "two books in one" aspect, I think that it was just because EBD was aware that this could be her last book and she wanted to give Joey her happy ending and get the school settled safely again in case she couldn't come back and write more. Of course she had to leave a gap for that to happen.

In a way, I think that it would have been better for the series to finish at 'New'; purely as a series of children's books, those are the best books, and it would have been lovely to think of the school continuing to flourish in the beautiful mountain scenery with all the happiness to be found there. But then we wouldn't have got the rest of the series, so of course I can't wholly support that!

I'm another who just can't see Joey as a gushy type. Hysterical, yes, and certainly in need of someone strong enough to 'keep her feet on the ground' - a role previously filled by Madge and Jem but taken over by Jack. Also, I think that the romance is natural just because of the situation that they're placed in; we also see, for example, Frieda marrying someone that she escaped with.
Author:  JB [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Chubby Monkey wrote:

Quote:
I think that it was just because EBD was aware that this could be her last book and she wanted to give Joey her happy ending and get the school settled safely again in case she couldn't come back and write more.


Perhaps she also thought that there would be more chance of the series continuing if the school had started up somewhere else, rather than leaving it in limbo?
Author:  sealpuppy [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I appreciate Exile much more now than I did as a child but I think my first CS book was Jo to the Rescue so I always knew she married Jack. I think it works well and that it must have been particularly satisfying to read at the time: girls in their early teens knowing that the world was falling apart and here was an example of how to cope.

I've always loved the aspirational aspects of girls' stories; I think my entire creed was based on Jen in the Abbey Girls when she says people need to know they can trust you! And the CS girls are in the same mould. In her own way Jacqueline Wilson is still doing it: life is tough, your parents may be dead/divorced/peculiar but here is a recipe for struggling through. Terry Pratchett does it too, the Discworld books are full of examples of how not to stuff up the world!

As for the romance at the time, it didn't bother me any more than the oodles of religious stuff, or the fact that they all had servants. Thinking of the Abbey girls here, more than CS, and particularly the books of MRs George de Horne Vaizey which I also collect. Late Victorian/Edwardian. As a child I just took it for granted that people were different.

I do love Joey's SLOC remark; Ken Marchwood in the Abbey books is another of them and my own SLOC is similarly SLOC-ish; I've often wondered if I was subconsciously influenced! :)
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Alison H wrote:
There seems to be more affection and even dependency than romance. Calling someone a SLOC is very sweet, but it's not exactly a first flush of passion type comment. Then we get Jack talking about wanting the right to "take care" of Joey, and Joey clinging to him during the escape from Austria. It's all very nice, but early on in a relationship, even between two people who have known each other a long time and even under such difficult circumstances, you might expect a bit more romance.


I agree entirely, though it doesn't surprise me at all in the context of other EBD books, where you get a similar pattern - this is EBD's template for suitable relationships. I can never decide entirely whether it's (1) EBD's own fear of not being 'nice-minded' enough for a young readership, given that she seems to equate any kind of dawning sexuality with over-sophistication and unsuitable precocity or (2) that she can't even hint at a really young romance - first love, loss of appetite, total absorption in the love object etc etc - because she can't see beyond her own conception of 'romance', which, to judge from the way she presents it in the CS, involves being taken care of, rather than mutual passion. Perhaps a middle-aged woman's view, particularly from someone who's always had to make her own way, rather than that of a twenty-year-old, who, until the Anschluss, had led a remarkably secure and untroubled existence...?

I know EBD couldn't have written about passion in a children's book, even if she'd wanted to, but, rather than leaving things vague (I don't think anyone is suggesting Joey should 'gush', but there are other ways of showing someone being in love, even discreetly enough for a girls' book) she presents the Joey-Jack relationship quite straightforwardly in terms of 'taking care of' and being comforted. Which in some ways sits very oddly, for me, both with Joey's capable, happy-go-lucky character (her 'SLOC' remark reads more like someone at the end of a long period of strain, rather than a nasty, but short period of anxiety over Robin) and her imaginativeness and sensitivity, which you'd imagine would express itself in terms other than seeking comfort when she falls in love for the first time ...? Doesn't this wonderful new relationship have more to offer than a combination of dependency and care-taking, plus some rather brotherly-sisterly teasing?

Which is why I agree with Sunglass that it's the war that makes the Joey-Jack relationship plausible, because the Anschluss/onset of war explains Joey's sudden weakness and Jack's desire to take care of her, and glosses over the lack of romance by imposing traumas and escapes. But I'd agree too, that I find myself wanting to know more about why Joey loves someone who used to be pretty much a member of the Sonnalpe family until something clearly changed, and why Jack falls for Joey. We hear a lot about why Joey is so attractive and charismatic as a schoolgirl to other schoolgirls, but nothing about why she's attractive as a potential romantic liaison and wife!
Author:  Mel [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I think Jo and Jack are well-suited and in EBD's world (generally) the girls go for some one on the scene who is well known and 'safe' rather than the dashing stranger. I see the pace of the book and the fact that so much is packed into it being the cause for the lack of romance. Joey, in spite of her supposed aversion to anything soppy, is very free with her 'I love yous' with Madge, Juliet and Robin. I can see why the wedding was cut, possibly because of the religious element, that she did not want to cause offence (and lose readers) - or Chambers advised? It's a pity that they had no normal time together after they are married; Jack goes away and Jo is pregnant and that's her life mapped out for the rest of the series.
Author:  Bethannie [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Like others, I didn't read the books in order so I knew that Jo and Jack were married before I got a copy (paperback Armada) of Exile.

The fact that Jo and Jack were meant for each other is clear from the eralier books. I think it is avery similar courtship in many ways to the seemingly unromantic Janie/Julian romance of La Rochelle (EBD did love her J names didn't she!) Where again the potential groom is older, and 'knows his own mind' and simply waits for his beloved to realise she loves him!

I think I liked the relationship between Jo and Jack because it was not 'mushy'....I hated romantic stories as a child, much prefering a good adventure/thriller.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Bethannie wrote:
Where again the potential groom is older, and 'knows his own mind' and simply waits for his beloved to realise she loves him!


You wonder whether Jack ever despaired of this happening, given that he seems to have been in love for years with someone who was clinging to her schoolgirl identity, determined to remain single, and who had clearly never regarded him in a romantic light! It all sounds most discouraging for a man stuck on an isolated mountain shelf not exposed to a great variety of other potential romantic interests!

And what about the unwanted suitor that provides the spur to Joey going to India - was he another San doctor, or am I remembering that wrong? Can you imagine the manly glares over the operating table? I suppose it might have made Jack decide not to speak out - if one unwanted suitor made Joey take off to India, might another one have made her decide to become permanent writer in residence of one of the Outer Hebrides?
Author:  JB [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

Quote:
And what about the unwanted suitor that provides the spur to Joey going to India - was he another San doctor, or am I remembering that wrong?


I'm sure he was a doctor, although there are no other specifics given (but this has been covered in fill-ins).

Quote:
It all sounds most discouraging for a man stuck on an isolated mountain shelf not exposed to a great variety of other potential romantic interests


There's always Grizel who, on hearing of Jo's engagement, said it was impossible and that "Not even Jack Maynard could make her change her mind."
Author:  Kathy_S [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I don't particularly read Exile for the romance, unless you count the "romance" of exotic locale/suspense etc. That said, I really like the Joey/Jack relationship, and don't understand why people find the mutual caring and comfort and teasing so unromantic. Of course there's more behind it, but EBD's following the convention of protagonists being a bit incoherent (at least in public), with deeper feelings conveyed by the expressions in their eyes and whatnot. We don't need to see the dot-dot-dot.

I also think that overt mush would have completely turned off the original publisher's target audience of school story readers, many of whom would have been assumed to be in the "boys have cooties" stage.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I'd love to know how Jack felt about that other suitor! In such times of 'stiff-upper-lip' would he have been able to make his feelings clear? I'm now imagining some massive, violent, soap opera like brawl in an operating theatre which prompts Joey's return...
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
A lot of CS girls end up marrying family friends - probably quite realistically, in the times and society in which they lived. There must have been a point at which Gisela, Bernhilda and Peggy stopped viewing their future spouses as friends' brothers and started seeing them in a romantic light.

The older man who knows his own mind and has known the much younger woman concerned for years thing isn't an uncommon theme in books. Much as I love Jane Austen's books, I always find it a bit odd that Mr Knightley ends up marrying Emma Woodhouse whom, as he says himself when they get engaged, he held in his arms when she (the daughter of his neighbour) was a newborn baby and he was in his mid-teens, and whom he watched grow up whilst he was already an adult. & Elsie Dinsmore marries her dad's best friend, someone whom she looked on as a "brevet uncle" for years, which I have to say I find a bit creepy.

The idea of someone suddenly realising how they feel about someone in a time of crisis is common enough, but what exactly went on that day :? ? Did Joey suddenly fall into Jack's arms whilst they were looking for Robin and Hilary, with Evvy or whoever else was there looking on :? .

I'm sure Grizel was interested in Jack. That "even Jack Maynard" comment's very telling :wink: . & there's a bit in (I think) Exploits in which Juliet notices Jack and Grizel teasing each other. And, of course, there were lots of single mistresses at the school, with little hope of meeting a suitable British male unless once just happened to turn up whilst they were rescuing people from train crashes. Jack would have been able to take his pick!
Author:  JB [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
In the early books, the Austrian girls, at least, were heavily chaperoned and I'd have thought they'd have very little chance to meet a man who wasn't a family friend.

Alison H wrote:

Quote:
And, of course, there were lots of single mistresses at the school, with little hope of meeting a suitable British male unless once just happened to turn up whilst they were rescuing people from train crashes. Jack would have been able to take his pick!


I now have a mental picture of Jack trying to have a quiet walk on his day off and having mistresses falling off mountain sides and into the lake all around him (and then having to pick themselves up as he's too busy dreaming of Joey).
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
:lol: It sounds like the latest reality TV show! "All these mistresses get just one date to impress - but who will win the eligible doctor's heart?"

It's never struck me as odd for people to marry those that they've known for years, even when one is much younger. It strikes me as a very neat arrangement! I just wish that things were that simple nowadays.
Author:  sealpuppy [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Interesting comments here. Re falling in love with a friend, it worked brilliantly with Monica and Chandler in 'Friends'! I remember a huge Ohhhh from the studio audience and I remember feeling a delighted realisation that they were a perfect match. As for Emma, I think part of the attraction is that he'll help her cope with her own dreadful father, but mostly, I guess, because Mr Knightley has to be the original SLOC! (And a SLOC is very unlikely to be demonstrative in public but I'm quite sure Jack, and Joey had their moments in private! Mr Knightleyand Emma too! :lol:

Another factor is that when Jo is 15, Jack is about 25 and only then beginning to make his way in his career, so he'd be in no hurry to think about marriage. Also if he did rather fancy Joey he knows she's not likely to be snapped up by anyone else while under Madge and Jem's care and that he, Jack, has the inside track. The idea of a young doctor in his first job thinking about marriage until he was decently established would have been frowned on by everyone - parents, guardians, etc. So the timing fits.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
What I find funny is that a lot of people seem to think that the alternative to 'Whoops, Robin's lost, oh you great solid lump of comfort, take care of me, despite the fact I've never shown a flicker of interest in you before' is 'mush' - there is a happy medium, you know!

I'm not suggesting for a second that Joey should write sonnets to Jack's eyebrows (though it would be pretty funny if she did), but I do think EBD could have covered herself by planting a few earlier clues - I mean, that Joey is developing reciprocal feelings for Jack. Otherwise it risks seeming, as it does later with Len and Reg, that the woman's feelings towards the man don't really matter if the man 'knows what she means to him' etc. The problem with Len and Reg is that there's not really any indication she has any feeling for him, and while that's not the case with Joey and Jack, I think the whole leap from Joey determined not to marry to the SLOC moment to engagement and marriage would feel a lot more rushed and jerky if it wasn't for the war...

I just get the feeling EBD was a bit embarrassed by the whole relationships thing, like Joey, who seems more embarrassed than proud when she shows Grizel her ring!
Author:  JayB [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
It would be interesting to know how EBD originally planned to handle the whole build up to Jo and Jack's engagement. As has been said, she had been dropping hints for a while, so she presumably had some plan in mind, however vague, before the Anschluss came along and messed everything up.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I - as usual - would argue the toss on Len/Reg. There are various moments when she 'grows up', or asks Hilda about marriage etc. That's rather off the point, though.

Personally, I think that it works perfectly well, and I think that there are hints about how they both feel in the texts, though a lot of them do depend on personal interpretation. But I certainly don't see any inherent problems in the relationship dynamic - though that may be to do with all the comments later on about "overflowing happiness" &cetera.

I also think that in war time, their reactions would be perfectly logical. People react in different ways, but I imagine that someone like Joey, whose reaction is to need someone to lean on, would be thrown against someone like Jack who instinctively wants to protect.
Author:  Cel [ Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Exile is one of my favourite books, and although the romance is only a small part of it, I have no problem at all with the way Joey and Jack's relationship is portrayed. I honestly think the gently teasing relationship is genuinely romantic, and more realistic than if Joey were to lose her appetite and moon around the place, which just wouldn't seem to fit with her personality (and, after the age of about 14, only seems to happen in books). We're not really privy to Jo's innermost thoughts, but that doesn't mean that Jack didn't occupy them, and I think her 'shameless' "I'd marry you if you were bald!" is about as passionate a declaration of love as you could expect to find in a girls' school story of the time.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
someone like Joey, whose reaction is to need someone to lean on


It's just that I don't see this at all up until the SLOC moment - I would have said pre-engagement Joey was a secure, self-confident (at times annoyingly bumptious!), charismatic young woman, who had fairly recently been a brilliant head-girl, and was in fact pretty self-reliant and capable, maybe as a reaction against the over-protectiveness that had to surround her when she was younger and more physically frail. I can't think of any indication that Joey, before this point, is someone who can't cope with whatever is thrown at her, whether that's rescuing kidnapped princesses, filling in for CS mistresses, etc.

I think what strikes an odd note for me is that it seems that it's only at the moment of an (implicit) declaration of love that she suddenly emerges as someone incapable of coping herself. It's as though EBD thinks Joey needs to be tidied into a 'clingier' category of conventional femininity when she's presented in the context of a sexual relationship, even though it's at odds with her character till now. It's from then on that we see the 'weaker', needing to be sedated and supervised Joey, that many of us find intermittently maddening. But I think it says something about EBD's relationship 'template' of male protectiveness and female relative weakness.

Not blaming Joey in the least for this - for me, this is very much something EBD 'does' to her character from outside, and slightly clunkily.
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I agree with Cosimo's Jackal - I think that the engagement is the tipping point between Joey's physical vulnerability and her emotional vulnerability.

I actually really like that we don't know Jo's feelings for Jack before the engagement. I like to think that Jo was for the most part fighting them - only her very close friends don't seem surprised that she's engaged. I think it's natural for both Madge and Grizel to be surprised/disbelieving - Madge, because she still really sees Joey as her little sister, and Grizel because to some extent she idolises Jo's bachelorette status and (I think) has modelled her own around her friends. Whereas the Robin is excited about the news - Joey has always been and older sister to her, and I think she's actually insightful enough by the time she's a teen to guess that Joey's feelings are more than platonic.

I'm another one who'd love to know Jack's reaction to a potential rival! I doubt he had anything much to worry about, though - I'm sure Joey made her feelings towards the other doctor plain enough!
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I think that, although she hid it well, Joey wasn't as strong as she appeared to be on the surface. Look at the way she reacts when Madge gets engaged; although she's happy for her sister, she has lost her main support at the school, and that shows. Or, just to take a small example, the time that Madge has a headache (it's just a headache!) and Joey can't concentrate all day. Undoubtedly, Jack brings out this side to her far more, but I don't think that it's necessarily a huge character change for her to react like that, especially given the situation they're in.
Author:  JayB [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Quote:
especially given the situation they're in

Yes; I wonder how much of the long term change in Jo's character is due to her experiences at this time. Up to this point she had been quite sheltered and secure. The world had, to a large extent, revolved around her.

She had been in some physical danger from time to time, but had never really suffered emotionally. It was other people who suffered when she was seriously ill. The worst thing Jo had ever had to deal with was the fear that Robin might be ill - and she didn't exactly cope with that well. Then it turned out to be just a scare - Jem fixed it for her.

With the Anschluss, the events in Spartz, and the flight from Austria, Jo for the first time came up against bad things that Madge or Jem or Jack couldn't fix for her. She says in a much later book that she still has nightmares about what happened. I wonder if perhaps, quite unconcscioulsly, she withdrew a little from the real world and clung to what was safe and familiar and where she had a fair amount of control over what happened - her family, the School, and her writing?

/End amateur psychoanalysis for today.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I agree, JayB, that the war probably played quite a large part in her clinging to the school so resolutely (though I don't know if you can call it psychoanalysis when you didn't mention an Electra complex once :twisted:). As you say, she was very sheltered until then, and this was her first real experience of the world, as such; Jack was there to support her through it and so she turns to him all the time as a support, as she does with the school.

Sorry, I'll stop just paraphrasing what you said now. In conclusion, yes, I concur!
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
She becomes more highly-strung in her late teens - racing round Die Rosen in hot weather and doing everyone else's heads in, and fainting at the Passion Play, and even her irrational attitude in blaming Stacie for Robin's health problems. The Joey who clings to Jack's arm during the escape from Tyrol and collapses on the journey away from Guernsey (leaving Nell and Frieda to look after her children) is a far cry from the Joey who rescued Grizel, Elisaveta and Maureen, but I think there'd been shades of it earlier.

I don't think Jack's attitude helps. He always seems very keen on administering doses - as does Jem, who doses Madge without her knowledge when she's (quite understandably) distressed when Sybil is kidnapped. Even Dick Bettany, whom we've been told's always tended to do what Madge says, has the nerve to tell Madge (when he writes to her about the Carricks) that women are helpless and need looking after. Typical enough attitude for men of that time and class, perhaps (or maybe men of their class but a slightly earlier time), but somehow I can't imagine Gottfried dosing Gisela, Bruno von Ahlen dosing Frieda, Phil Graves dosing Hilary or Eugen Courvoisier dosing Biddy.

Simone, interestingly, goes the other way. She starts off being highly-strung and a bit hysterical, but becomes much more calm and sensible when she grows up.

JayB, IMHO your comments about the events in Exile and the other war books are spot on.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Look at the way she reacts when Madge gets engaged; although she's happy for her sister, she has lost her main support at the school, and that shows. Or, just to take a small example, the time that Madge has a headache (it's just a headache!) and Joey can't concentrate all day.


But she does cope by herself, rather than find someone to cling to. I think that if you consider her schoolgirl days, she was actually unusually self-reliant. Rather too much so at times, as when she went racing off solo to rescue someone! But she talks very seldom about her personal problems, doesn't confide her loneliness at Madge's departure, for instance, and it's Madge, rather than Joey, who tells Marie and authorises telling Frieda about the Robin's suspected illness. Even if she does 'act out' her emotions physically, she's not dependent on anyone about them - I feel sure Simone wished she were less guarded and more needy, though it may precisely have been Joey's ebullience and confidence she found attractive!

I agree with JayB about the significance of the war in this - but I'm still not convinced EBD consciously intended us to see Joey's personality changed by finally coming up against something the grownups couldn't solve. But I think that the war happened to have to be dealt with in the same book as Joey's engagement actually helped EBD out of a tight spot (the transition of a beloved central character to a new state, and something she must have known she didn't write very well!), allowed for big narrative gaps and jumps. and probably accidentally 'helped' explain Joey's new fragility and clinginess in relation to her newly-discovered SLOC as a reaction to trauma.

But I think it's significant that even on the way up to the cave on the picnic, with the Anschluss a reality, the threat of war, spies on her trail, and an incriminating document in her pocket, Joey remains unfazed, breezy, and in charge - her old self - even though Jack is there, though as yet not an acknowledged love object. (In fact, she more or less gets Jack up the awkward rock climb, doesn't she?)

She does freak out when Robin and Hilary aren't in the cave, but doesn't break down, and retains the presence of mind to nab Hermann. It seems that it's only after the SLOC moment that we see the birth of a new, less ebullient Joey. It's as if EBD thinks that what a man brings to a relationship is primarily protectiveness, so if the woman doesn't need or want protecting, the relationship can't work, so she needs to make Joey more reliant and fragile than the girl who charged off up mountains and foiled kidnappers with Guide woodcraft etc.
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Alison H wrote:
I don't think Jack's attitude helps.


I suppose it's possible that Jack, as Jem's friend and colleague initially, has unconsciously absorbed Jem's protective older-brotherly/fatherly attitude to Joey and Joey's health. Although the age-gap between him and Joey isn't particularly big, it's undeniable that he's been part of the 'older generation' of quasi-parents and authority figures at the Sonnalpe since she was still a somewhat sickly schoolgirl, and that must make a difference in how you would approach someone as a lover. (Rather like Austen's Mr Knightley, as someone said up the thread - will he ever be able to get over lecturing Emma like a curmudgeonly uncle?)

It would be damn awkward to want to take Joey for a moonlight walk, but to feel Jem mentally breathing down your neck about making sure she wrapped up well and got an early night with a beaker of hot milk afterwards. Hard to avoid feeling like her GP rather than her lover!

Though EBD - to me, weirdly - seems to really like the combination of slightly medically-tinged romance. Not just that she pairs so many of her women with doctors, or an ethically dubious situation like Phoebe Wychcote being Dr Peters' patient when he declares himself, but even the first time Neil Sheppard notices Grizel on the ship, he's looking at her in terms of what he thinks is wrong with her medically! I would have said that feeling like a walking set of symptoms was about as erotic as a cold bath, or having someone look at your X-rays, but, hey, each to their own, and this is EBD's particular kink!
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Sunglass wrote:
I would have said that feeling like a walking set of symptoms was about as erotic as a cold bath, or having someone look at your X-rays, but, hey, each to their own, and this is EBD's particular kink!


Perhaps that's why she wrote so many doctor romances - after all, marriage is all about darning socks and eating breakfast together, unless you're Joey and Jack there shouldn't be anything erotic about it!

I think that we're going to have to agree to disagree about Joey; to me, even in the cave scene she is showing her need to rely on Jack - her first reaction to finding the paper 'missing' is to "half-faint" into his arms, which is hardly the Joey of earlier materials.

I do think that it's a transitory thing; she goes from dashing off by herself in 'School At' to enlisting the help of others in 'Rivals' by sending them off to tell various people where she is etc, and then in the later Tirol books as she grows up, she also seems to lose her impulsiveness to do dangerous things, until she goes backwards and starts to rely on others.

I do think that maybe it was something to do with growing up; her main role models would be Dick (who, as someone said above, seems to think that women are helpless) and Madge and Jem, who do have a reliant relationship on each other - though in their case it does work both ways, for example when they think Jack is dead and Madge has to comfort Jem. IMHO, Joey just absorbed that and took it to be part of growing up.

Sorry if that makes no sense :oops:
Author:  trig [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I've always loved the Joey-Jack relationship right from the beginning although I never noticed any hints until I reread as an adult. OK, so Jack is high-handed in the dosing/ sending to bed department but otherwise their relationship seems to be natural and comfortable. It's probably attractive to a mainly female readership that, apart from the issues above the main male characters don't really interfere (apart from all the baby-making :) ) with the women's lives and friendships like real men do :roll:

The rushing of the courtship in Exile is probably realistic too. My grandparents had a very rushed wedding as my grandfather was posted to Burma quite suddenly. Don't Con Stewart and Simone also have quite rushed weddings?

I'm puzzled by the references to another suitor for Joey. What book does this happen in? Or is it a fill in I don't know about?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
trig wrote:
I'm puzzled by the references to another suitor for Joey. What book does this happen in? Or is it a fill in I don't know about?


AFAIK it was the reason for her trip to India, which EBD wrote about but which was never published and so has been lost.
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
It's mentioned in Summer Term (about 20 years after the event!) as the reason Jo went to India. His name is given as Dr Hunter in one of the fill-ins - I think it's in Gillian - but AFAIK is never mentioned by EBD.

I don't find the rush to get married unusual - Joey says herself that she hadn't planned on getting married for at least a year but that the need to leave Austria's changed things, and a lot of couples got married quickly during the War - but I find the rush to get engaged a bit much. I know that CS couples move very quickly from liking each other to getting engaged, but going out one morning as just good friends and coming back in the evening engaged seems rather quick!
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Am I remembering this wrong, or does Robin tell Grizel Jack and Joey were already engaged before the fateful picnic but were keeping it to themselves? Or is it a different, later, picnic?
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
IIRC, she says that "they were engaged" (which I take to mean "they got engaged") on the day of the picnic (the one which ended with Robin and Hilary getting separated from the others), but said nothing until after Juliet's wedding, a few weeks later, because they didn't want to steal Juliet and Donal's thunder. I know there's been confusion about it before, though, so I may be remembering wrongly as well :? .
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Robin says:

Quote:
She and Jack have been engaged for nearly a month now... That night we had the picnic up the Sonnenscheinspitze they were engaged; but Joey asked us not to tell anyone till after the holidays, as Juliet's wedding was coming...
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
It's all a bit vague, but I've always assumed that there was only one picnic (we're only told that they were going to "Robin's Cave", and it doesn't actually say whether or not the cave was on the Sonnenscheinspitze!). At the start of the first chapter at the picnic, there's a long section on how Jack's been interested in Jo for two years but Jo has no interest in relationships/marriage at the moment. Later on that day, we get "the SLOC scene".

From what Robin says, Jo and Jack get engaged that same evening. It sounds as if Jack might have proposed immediately after the SLOC scene. For one thing, we're told that Robin had been in bed since 7pm and that Jo and Jack got in two hours later, so it was already 9pm by then and not much of "that night" left, and also Madge had left the room so they were alone together. It's not hard to imagine, amid all the emotion of that day, Jack declaring that he'd been secretly enamoured of her for the past two years and Joey declaring that she'd just realised how wonderful he was, but it just seems a bit weird somehow.

I wonder if Madge, however much she may have liked Jack and been delighted that he and Jo had got together, mightn't've felt like advising Jo to wait until she was in a calmer frame of mind before making a definite decision.
Author:  JayB [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
trig wrote:
I'm puzzled by the references to another suitor for Joey. What book does this happen in? Or is it a fill in I don't know about?


AFAIK it was the reason for her trip to India, which EBD wrote about but which was never published and so has been lost.


I don't see why Jo should have had to go all the way to India to get away from an unwanted suitor. This is one occasion when Jem could and should have come over all authoritarian. Jo was only 18 or 19 and was to all intents and purposes his ward. He was the unwanted suitor's boss. He should have fired him if he wouldn't take 'no' for an answer.

No reason why Jo shouldn't have gone to India just because she wanted to.
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
JayB wrote:
No reason why Jo shouldn't have gone to India just because she wanted to.


I suspect it's more likely that the trip was used as an excuse, but that wasn't the only reason that she went. After all, Robin went as well, and as far as we know the mysterious suitor Dr X wasn't after her as well!

Perhaps Jem *couldn't* get rid of him for whatever reason - he was the son of someone who donated funds to the San, for example. Like I said, I can imagine Joey making her feelings towards him *perfectly* clear, so perhaps Jem thought it was better to send her away and then get rid of the suitor quietly, so there wouldn't be any more scenes!

I would love to have seen Joey giving Dr X her "unvarnished opinion" of him, though. Such a pity EBD never wrote it!
Author:  Abi [ Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Nightwing wrote:
Perhaps Jem *couldn't* get rid of him for whatever reason - he was the son of someone who donated funds to the San, for example. Like I said, I can imagine Joey making her feelings towards him *perfectly* clear, so perhaps Jem thought it was better to send her away and then get rid of the suitor quietly, so there wouldn't be any more scenes!


I just wrote a lovely post saying pretty much that and have now lost it :roll: so will instead merely say I Agree!
Author:  Sunglass [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Yes, I find it interesting that EBD felt she had to write in an 'excuse' for a trip to India, rather than just have Joey going to see her brother and his family, which I would have said was enough reason, if reason was needed. Is it that, having passed on the Belsornia appointment, at least partly on the grounds that she was needed at home to help Madge with the children, EBD might have felt it looked selfish if Joey simply took off on a pleasure jaunt for a long period, and so decided there needed to be a spur? (As other people have said, the unwanted medic suitor scenario looks a little pasted-on, given that all-powerful Jem was at one point able to see off a Nazi with powers of arrest merely by being his 'great doctor' self! Which is adorably EBD, who believes so utterly in the power of the Great Doctor!)

Not that clear on the time-line either - wouldn't Robin have had to be taken out of school for quite a long period? And what about the effects of the Indian climate on her fragile constitution?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if a lost MS came to light....?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I think that that's a perfectly plausible idea, Nightwing, and one that I quite like. I can picture Jem trying to be very diplomatic about it, but being interrupted by Joey to say exactly what she thought! I do feel sorry for him, though; he has the suitor on one side, then Joey telling him that she never wants to get married, presumably Madge worrying about what it will do to her (Joey) and Jack, his best friend, probably getting very cross and jealous about it all. What a lot of balls to juggle! Maybe he just packed Joey off to India to get her out of the way for a while :lol: I'm surprised that they let the Robin go, though; I would have thought with her delicacy and need for "pure moutain air" it might not have been the most ideal place to go....

Alison H wrote:
I wonder if Madge, however much she may have liked Jack and been delighted that he and Jo had got together, mightn't've felt like advising Jo to wait until she was in a calmer frame of mind before making a definite decision.


I don't know if she would or not - it would seem to be a sensible thing to do, but as has already been mentioned a lot of marriages were rushed during the war. And as it turns out it was for the best because now Jack can look after her during the escape. I, personally, think that if she did have any doubts that would change after Jack was taken away for questioning (I've always wondered, would that just have been questioning, or might there have been a bit of "persuasion" thrown in?), as it would really bring home just what danger they were in; until then it had just been seen as a schoolgirl affair, IMHO.
Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I was just wondering - are there any other instances in the series of a man showing interest in a woman who doesn't return it? There are several instances of woman having feelings for men they can't have (Juliet's broken heart over O'Hara, Grizel's possible feelings for Deira's second husband) but I can't think of any other examples of a man not having his feelings reciprocated. Significant, maybe?

ETA: Ah, I just remembered Madge's first proposal. I stand corrected :lol:
Author:  Kirsty [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
There also may be a case for Grizel having feelings for Jack, if you take some of the comments in early books a sign of her jealousy that Jack preferred Joey to her. ALthough, it could also be read that she is jealous of ANYONE that takes Joey's attention away from her (ref: the Robin)
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Should we assume that Jack would have formally asked Jem as Joey's (presumably) guardian-cum-father-figure for his permission to propose to Joey, even though Jem seems to have known in general about his love for her all along? (Or Dick, via telegram? 'NEED PERMISH TO PROPOSE JOEY STOP PLEASE CABLE YES ASAP STOP YRS IN TORMENT JACK' :) ) If we assume he did formally ask Jem, should we think of him having to bolt out of the room to find Jem during the SLOC scene? 'Be right back, two ticks, Joey dearest!' Or, if he'd previously received permission from Jem, does that imply he'd noticed a softening in Joey's attitude towards him that made him think she might accept if he proposed, and was wandering around with a ringbox in his pocket?

I suppose I'm wondering whether the SLOC scene came as much of as a surprise to him as it clearly did to other people, or if he knew it was coming. Them keeping it quiet for a month so as not to steal Juliet's thunder, and the approach of war, lets things like the purchase of the ring, and enagagement announcements or visits, get a bit blurred over.

Actually, more than seeing Joey's own wedding, I'd have liked to see a bit of Juliet's, to see whether Kay O'Hara was glowering and if Donal had grown up enough to deserve Juliet (who is cool), and whether Joey kept blushing mysteriously during the ceremony, to Grizel's puzzlement! (Or was secretly wearing her engagement ring on a chain inside her bridesmaid's dress...)
Author:  hac61 [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
There is a fill-in book, "Two Chalet Girls in India" by Priyadarshini Narendra, published by Bettany Press, I think.

It not only describes the Indian holiday but deals with Joey's unwanted suitor. I loved that bit - he is so thick at taking hints and so sure she will come round.

Well worth reading. Most dealers still carry it, I think. I know the two dealers I use do.


hac

ETA IIRC it also shows Joey beginning to think about marriage and such like.
Author:  Abi [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
'NEED PERMISH TO PROPOSE JOEY STOP PLEASE CABLE YES ASAP STOP YRS IN TORMENT JACK'


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
I suppose I'm wondering whether the SLOC scene came as much of as a surprise to him as it clearly did to other people, or if he knew it was coming.


I'm sure he must have had previous permission from Jem, or at least that Jem had expressed his approval. And I guess he wouldn't have proposed unless he'd had some encouragement from Joey apart from the SLOC comment - which must have seemed a fairly opportune moment :D .

RE the doctor - maybe Joey was actually head over heels, Jem thought he was unsuitable and packed her off to India to stop her running off with him........
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Cosimo's Jackal wrote:
If we assume he did formally ask Jem, should we think of him having to bolt out of the room to find Jem during the SLOC scene? 'Be right back, two ticks, Joey dearest!' Or, if he'd previously received permission from Jem, does that imply he'd noticed a softening in Joey's attitude towards him that made him think she might accept if he proposed, and was wandering around with a ringbox in his pocket?


I think that, not just as Jem's friend, but as a gentleman, he would have told Jem as soon as he realised how he felt, and asked for his permission to at least try as he saw fit. After all, it would be incredibly awkward for him to keep working at the San if Jem didn't approve.

I like to think of Joey softening to him. They are such a lovely couple, and I love reading about them before they get engaged (often in drabbles, I'll admit, but still). Even later on in the books, I always think that there is such a romantic feel to it, and you can see how happy they are together. I don't think that Joey would have just rushed into something like that.
Author:  Nightwing [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I never thought for a moment that he'd have asked Jem's permission. I daresay he would have said something to him, since they're good friends and Joey is Jem's sister-in-law, but Jem isn't Joey's guardian. Plus there's the fact that Madge doesn't know it's going to happen - surely Jem would have told her if Jack had said that he wanted to ask Jo to marry him?

Perhaps he'd asked Dick for permission before they went back to India... :D
Author:  JB [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Chubby Monkey wrote:

Quote:
Even later on in the books, I always think that there is such a romantic feel to it, and you can see how happy they are together. I don't think that Joey would have just rushed into something like that.


I was pondering the speed of Joey and Jack's engagement this afternoon (a perfectly reasonable way to spend time while the acupuncture needles did their work :) ). Between New Chalet School and Exile, there's an 18 month gap* when we don't see Joey and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that she did a lot of growing up in that time. She visited India and lived at Die Rosen as an adult, writing her books. Presumably there'd be some social aspect to life up there with the Russells, the other married couples and the San/Annexe staff. During that time, she may well have come to think differently about Jack who, as others have said, had no doubt spoken to Jem about his interest in her.

I like the way that both fill-ins for this period (Two Chalet Girls in India and Gillian) show us a hint of Joey's growing awareness of Jack.

* I am a believer in the 18 month gap theory as it allows time for Joey to go to India and have been back at the Sonnalpe for a while before Exile opens.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Nightwing wrote:
Plus there's the fact that Madge doesn't know it's going to happen - surely Jem would have told her if Jack had said that he wanted to ask Jo to marry him?


I've always read that as Madge just being shocked that they'd actually got engaged, rather than that they had feelings for each other, or Jack for Joey at least. I can't see how Jack couldn't in all decency have asked Jem!
Author:  Abi [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
Nightwing wrote:
Plus there's the fact that Madge doesn't know it's going to happen - surely Jem would have told her if Jack had said that he wanted to ask Jo to marry him?


I've always read that as Madge just being shocked that they'd actually got engaged, rather than that they had feelings for each other, or Jack for Joey at least. I can't see how Jack couldn't in all decency have asked Jem!


Or possibly Madge was still thinking of Joey as her baby sister - maybe she thought of their engagement as something not unlikely to happen in the future.

I'm bad at timelines - hadn't realised there was an 18 month gap. That makes the whole thing far more likely as there'd have been plenty of time for Joey to mature, gain experience and so on.
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I think Madge must just have been totally dazed by that point. First of all, no-one arrived back from the picnic until well into the evening. Then Robin turned up with Gottfried, with no sign of Jo or Jack. By the time Jo and Jack finally turned up, two hours later, it was getting pretty late and Madge must have been worrying that they'd got lost in the mountains or had an accident, and then Jo first of all fainted and then burst into tears ... and then Jack, who, whatever Madge may or may not have known about his feelings, had been "just good friends" with Jo when they'd left the house, put his arms round Jo and called her "darling". Oh, and to cap it all they'd brought Hermann with them.

Madge must have been ready for a long stiff drink after all that: it's no wonder she was a bit stunned and couldn't quite take it all in!
Author:  JayB [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I don't see Jack formally asking Jem's permission to court Joey before they were engaged. Jack had no reason to suppose he wouldn't be acceptable as a husband for Jo.

Jem, and especially Madge and Jo, had known the Maynards a long time; Joey knew the Maynards well, and presumably had met Jack several times, before Jack ever met Jem or came to work at the San.

Madge and Jem were quite happy for Jo and Jack to go around together chaperoned only by schoolgirls (quite different from the courtships of Jo's Austrian friends).

The only possible issue might be that of religion - but since Madge allowed Jo to make her own decisions on religious matters when she was a schoolgirl, she wasn't likely to start raising objections when Jo was almost of age.

I can imagine Jack having a private, informal chat with Jem, or Jem and Madge, once they were engaged, to discuss plans and maybe business matters.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I was thinking more along the lines that Joey is still a minor, and can't marry (I assume?) without the permission of her guardian/s. Even though the resident guardian on the Sonnalpe is Madge, rather than Jem (though, in practice, after their marriage, Jem seems to assume that role to at least the same extent as Madge, - would his marriage have given him some guardian-like position in relation to Joey? Or might he have been legally appointed as an extra guardian?), the irksome traditional practice of suitor asking senior male relative doesn't suggest Jack would have formally consulted Madge over Jem.

I know there's the implication that Madge and Jem of course approve completely in theory - Jack is an old friend, after all, and his feelings for Joey appear to be an open secret - but you could say the same for Reg, but he does seem to make a formal application to Jack all the same, setting out his financial situation and his financial ability to marry etc. (Though Reg is quite a bit younger, which may make a difference.)

But I would have said it would be somewhat awkward for Jack to have to make his intentions plain to his senior colleague and friend in theory only, back in the days when Joey was still regarding him with friendly indifference.

'I say, Jem?'

'Pass the scalpel, old man. Yes, what is it?'

'I'm in love with Joey.'

'But she's still at school!'

'I know.'

'But she says categorically she'll never marry!'

'Yup.' Suction, nurse, please.'

'And she regards you as a kind of extra brother! And she said overbreakfast you were no film star for looks.'

'Gotcha. Clamps. But, ahem, do I have your and Madge's approval?'

'For what? Joey would laugh in your face and accuse you of being soppy!'

'Oh. So you don't think I should propose to her, then?'

'What part of what I just said are you not hearing, man? Suction, nurse.'
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
:lol: Ok, fair enough. But how about this?:

"I say, Jem, old chap, you know that I've been getting to know Joey a lot more since I've come to work here?"

"Yes, I'm so pleased that you could come."

"Well, I think that I might have more than brotherly feelings for her."

"Oh, I say, how awkward."

"It is at the moment, but I'm sure that once she starts to grow up a little she'll realise that marriage isn't all that she thinks it is."

"Well, maybe you're right."

"So you wouldn't mind if, should the occasion ever arise, I made my feelings plain to her?"

"You can try; it will of course be up to Joey."

Please excuse stilted English of the variety clearly used by gentlemen then.
Author:  JB [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I like that Ariel. Thanks.
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Jane Austen's heroes generally propose first and only ask the lady's dad/guardian for permission after getting the thumbs up :D . I know Eugen von und zu Wertheim asked Marie's dad before he and Marie officially got engaged, but I get the impression he and Marie had come to an "understanding" first.

Jem says something about "Haven't you got anything pretty to say to Jack?" when Jack (bizarrely!) accompanies him to the school camp, so he clearly knows that Jack is interested and has presumably told Jack that he's OK about it. (Given that Joey was, if not then then certainly by the time she left school, planning to spend the rest of her days hanging about at Die Rosen, he was probably over the moon at the prospect of her marrying Jack instead!) I can't imagine that Jack asked if it would be OK to propose should Joey just happen to fall into his arms whilst they were looking for Robin and Hilary and dodging Nazis, though, or that he nipped out to ask Jem's permission in between the SLOC scene and actually getting down on one knee.

It's possible that Jem twigged, instead of Jack telling him.

"Listen, old chap, correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here but would I be right in thinking that you've developed a bit of an interest in young Joey."

"Oh bugger - is it that obvious? Has Joey realised?"

"Don't think so. For someone who's supposed to be so sensitive, she can be remarkably thick sometimes. In fact, Madge and I are thinking of adding to our family, and I bet Joey won't even notice that Russell Junior Mark II's on the way until he or she's born."
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Alison H wrote:

Jem says something about "Haven't you got anything pretty to say to Jack?" when Jack (bizarrely!) accompanies him to the school camp, so he clearly knows that Jack is interested and has presumably told Jack that he's OK about it.


I'd forgotten that! What an odd thing to say, really - and I bet Jack was ready to murder him! It comes across as a bit like your dad saying, when you're a sullen teenager 'And haven't you given Uncle Tony a big kiss to say thank you for your birthday present?' If Joey is aware of Jack's feelings at this stage, long before she returns them, it's embarrassing him and for her - there's nothing worse than someone who's keener on you than you are on them hanging about making sheep's eyes, especially when they've shown up with your brother-in-law when you were off on a Guide camp! - and if she's not aware of them, I doubt Jack would be all that thrilled to have Jem dropping Great Clunky Hints like that!

What does Joey say in response, if anything?
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Quote:
'...Madge will be pleased with you. Now, haven't you anything pretty to say to Jack?'

Jo turned with a grin to Dr Jack. 'I forgot you in the excitement of seeing Jem,' she confessed, as she shook hands. 'It seems such years since we left the Sonnalpe. But it's jolly having you here, Dr. Jack. Have you heard from Maynie lately?'


It seems to me rather more of a joking comment than anything else, and Joey clearly isn't offended by the suggestion - or just doesn't get it.

I like the idea of Jem guessing! That could be supremely awkward but nice too.
Author:  Alison H [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Poor old Jack! First Jem embarrasses him, and then all the girl of his dreams does is ask after his sister and say she's more excited about seeing her brother-in-law than seeing him! He must've wanted to go off and howl :( .
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I agree, Alison H! You could say Joey is tactfully but quite plainly making it clear to poor Jack that

(a) she is considerably more excited to see her brother-in-law than him

(b) she's entirely forgotten the Sonnalpe folk with the exception of her own family since she's been at camp, having great fun

(c) while it's 'jolly' that he's here, she doesn't ask how he is, but whether he's heard from his sister.

And a friendly handshake and a 'grin' could definitely not be construed as in any way inviting...

Poor Jack, I see him being rather silent on the way home. Thinking about it from his point of view, Joey is pretty difficult to get at - she's so self-evidently having the time of her life as a schoolgirl at this point, surrounded by people who are without exception fond of her and with endless friends, adoring her school, well able for anything that's asked of her, apparently without insecurities or moments of introspection or self-doubt. I wouldn't normally suggest you have to be vulnerable to fall in love, but that's the way EBD often presents it, and certainly in Joey's case, that's what happens. Joey shows a chink of vulnerability and they are engaged the same evening.

But in Camp, Jack can't offer her anything to compete with school at this stage, which must have been obvious to him... She must have come across as having everything she currently wants, and those are certainly the signals she's giving off in that exchange.
Author:  JayB [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Quote:
I was thinking more along the lines that Joey is still a minor, and can't marry (I assume?) without the permission of her guardian/s....

True - but there's no reason why Jo, or Jo and Jack together, couldn't do the asking.

If EBD had stuck to what she originally wrote, with Jo having her 22nd birthday in November 1939, and if Jo and Jack had been engaged for at least a year, as Jo at first intended (ie not married before spring 1939) Jo would have been 21 by then anyway, so no need for any permission.

Quote:
I know there's the implication that Madge and Jem of course approve completely in theory .... but you could say the same for Reg, but he does seem to make a formal application to Jack all the same ... (Though Reg is quite a bit younger, which may make a difference.)

I think the difference is that Len is much younger - only a little over sixteen - when Reg approaches Jack. We know that Jack has been sure of his feelings for Joey since she was that age, but unlike Reg he's been content to let Jo grow up in her own time, and Jo is 19 or 20 by the time they're actually engaged.

Quote:
Jem says something about "Haven't you got anything pretty to say to Jack?"

I've always seen it more as Jem reminding Jo of her manners, taking the edge off the reprimand by doing it in in a slightly teasing way. She doesn't need to gush, but she does need to acknowledge Jack's presence and say something polite. Possibly slightly embarrassing for Jack, but I think it would be for anyone in that situation, regardless of their feelings.
Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I agree that Jack must have felt fairly despondant about not being able to offer Joey anything to rival what she has at that time, but I think that he would be very hopeful of giving her more once she leaves school. He must surely know that her only plans are to live at Die Rosen, and possibly even that she isn't dreadfully excited about it, so if I were him I would be thinking that I would make her like me as much as possible now so that it isn't a complete shock when I start to intimate something more a little later on.

I am naively and unrealistically romantic, though, so I apologise for this and all of my previous posts. I know that I'm being hopelessly stupid with my attitude, but I can't help it!
Author:  JayB [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Quote:
I agree that Jack must have felt fairly despondant about not being able to offer Joey anything to rival what she has at that time, but I think that he would be very hopeful of giving her more once she leaves school.

I think Jack's approach was the right one. He must have been aware of Jo's resistance to the idea of growing up - her not wanting to be HG was probably pretty well known among their circle of friends. If he'd tried to be anything more than a chum before Jo was ready, he'd have made her uncomfortable and unwilling to spend time with him, and spoiled what seems to have been a good friendship.

It must have been difficult for him, especially when Jo went off to India; he must have worried that she might meet someone else out there or on the voyages there and back. It must have been hard for him to let her go without saying anything. I think Jack behaved very well in not trying to force the issue prematurely.
Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
JayB wrote:
I think Jack's approach was the right one. He must have been aware of Jo's resistance to the idea of growing up - her not wanting to be HG was probably pretty well known among their circle of friends. If he'd tried to be anything more than a chum before Jo was ready, he'd have made her uncomfortable and unwilling to spend time with him, and spoiled what seems to have been a good friendship.

It must have been difficult for him, especially when Jo went off to India; he must have worried that she might meet someone else out there or on the voyages there and back. It must have been hard for him to let her go without saying anything. I think Jack behaved very well in not trying to force the issue prematurely.


Yes, I'd say that was pretty well-played from Jack's point of view. But I think he would have had one trump card (compared to, say, Reg in a not dissimilar situation later) - Joey doesn't have an exciting new university future in front of her, like Len. She's vocal about how 'little' just being at the Sonnalpe working on her singing and helping out with the children is going to feel, after her busy schooldays. Jack knows she will be close by, in his immediate circle, and somewhat at a loose end compared to her school existence, and he must have been canny enough to realise it will give him a better chance, so it's worthwhile taking the long view.

But of course that must have made the Indian trip rather alarming for him, because he wouldn't have been expecting her to leave Madge and the family for a long period - and of course it would have been an obvious opportunity for her to meet other men. Hard to say (without reading EBD's treatment of it) whether the unwanted medical suitor would have put Joey temporarily off the whole idea of love even more than ever, or whether it might have had the effect of waking her up to its possibilities with someone she liked better... But even better played by Jack to have kept calm and not tried to claim her before she left for India. Give that man a gold star for playing a long game and winning.
Author:  Tor [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
this thread is making me want to dust off my drabble about Jack having comoetiotion for Joey's heart (now languishing in the archives).... must. ignore. and. do. work
Author:  emma t [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
I have read the above with much interest ( and I do apologise if the debate has come to an end!) but I have recently finished reading 'Exile' and have to agree that the romance between Jack and Joey was hinted at in previous books ( notably on his part). How did he manage to keep quiet for all those years? It must have been quite hard on his part, but then he knew that wrath would have been brought down on him if he approached a school girl on the matters of the heart. I too,have never seen Joey as the romantic heroine, and like her almost matter-of-fact way of dealing with her engagement to Jack, even if it is rushed and she is made to marry him sooner rather than later.
But when does she become a Catholic? This is not mentioned either, aswell as the wedding, and I am quite curious as to why EBD did not write about it - I know it would have been an even longer book, but how about in two books?
Sorry if I have gone off the mark here and repeated anything anyone else has said :)
Author:  JB [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Books: Romance - The Chalet School in Exile
Emma, discussions on here rarely come to an end! :wink:

There has been discussion about how/when Joey became a Catholic. This isn't referred to in the books, although by the time of Jo to the Rescue (which might be where we've been discussing it recently), she's attending the Catholic church with the children.

We did speculate that EBD wanted Joey to become a Catholic because she had also converted in 1930 but that the conversion wasn't something that would have been suitable for a children's book at the time.

Helen McClelland wrote a short fill-in called Joey and Patricia, that was a supplement with the New Chalet Club Journal a few years ago, and which talked about this.

It is a shame the wedding wasn't covered. I wondered that, given EBD had been under some pressure from her publisher to end the series, whether she decided the most important thing was to get the school up and running again. If a book had ended with the school in limbo, might it have been easier for Chambers to say that was a good point to end things? Just speculation.
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