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Elisaveta
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Author:  charmkat [ Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Elisaveta
We last see (Princess) Elisaveta - now a widow, with her family - when she comes to open the school fete, and then she completely disappears from view (unless I've missed something). As she and Joey were always such good friends I always wondered what happened to her, and also why EBD seemed to suddenly drop all mention of her and never brought her into CS Reunion? She was after all at the school in the Dark Ages. Does anyone have any ideas?
Author:  Alison H [ Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
I like Elisaveta (and I like learning about Eastern European royals, even fictional ones :wink: ), but I suspect that EBD decided that involving princesses from fictional Ruritanian countries just didn't really work in the sort-of-real world of the Chalet School: Princess was written very early on in the series. Lorna Hill was still writing about Ruritanian royals in the Wells books in the 1960s, but other than that the idea was pretty much "passé" by the late 1930s - IMO the point at which the Slavonian royal family turn up in the Wells books is the point at which the series starts to go downhill!

It's a shame, because Elisaveta is a lovely character, and considered herself to be so close to the Bettanys that Joey was her chief bridesmaid, José was named after Joey and (IIRC) her younger daughter Guita was named after Madge and one of them had the middle name Cecilia after Robin.

In Fete there are hints that she's going to move to the Platz, but I don't know whether EBD changed her mind or just forgot about it as she forgot that Gisela and Gottfried were meant to be moving there!
Author:  JayB [ Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
I too like Elisaveta a lot. But I think, as well as Ruritanian storylines being out of date, by that stage of the series there were so many 'old' characters that it was impossible to keep up with all of them. Joey turning up in the Staff room with news of Old Girls doesn't advance the current plot at all - unless, as in Reunion, it is the plot, and it's likely to be of less interest to her target readers than the current doings of Inter V.

We do at least see quite a bit of Jose in the later books - whereas other daughters of Old Girls pass through the school without ever being mentioned!
Author:  MJKB [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
JayB wrote:
We do at least see quite a bit of Jose in the later books - whereas other daughters of Old Girls pass through the school without ever being mentioned!


Yes, I was always glad of that, and Jose is a particularly nice girl. She befriends Jane - I think? - and through her we have a connection to her mother. Elisaveta is the lady opener in Fete and it is at that point that she talks about moving to the Platz with Jack on hand to play the role of dad to her sons.
One thing that slightly irritates me in the series is the assumption that the English system of education is the best. I'm pretty sure there were excellent schools on continental europe which would have done just as well.
Author:  Miss Di [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
MJKB wrote:
One thing that slightly irritates me in the series is the assumption that the English system of education is the best. I'm pretty sure there were excellent schools on continental europe which would have done just as well.



In School at at least there isn't that assumption. The Austrian girls are quite surprised at how little work is done in an English school and compare it more or less unfavourably with their lycee.

Come to think of it, I am always surprised in early school stories how little work is done - it often seems to be morning for academic lessons and afternoons for handicrafts and games. Wouldn't want to strain the girls brains you know.
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
I don't think it is assumed for girls - the Saints and St Hilda's are explicitly seen as poorer schools than the all-conquering CS, and there are lots of moments when someone like Copper Ansell expects the CS sports teams to be less good than her old UK high school, but is surprised to find she's wrong.

But it does seem to be assumed for boys throughout the entire series. There's never a suggestion that the Maynard boys be educated at a Swiss school, for instance - although presumably Stephen at least would already have begun at a prep school before the move to the Platz, and they may not have wanted to move him, even though it would have meant him being at such a distance. But maybe it was natural that his brothers would join him then. (Although it does sit a bit oddly with Joey in Island actively resisting Stephen going to boarding school and saying it will be bad enough when it happens in six or seven years. Why not send him to an international school in Switzerland, where he can come home on weekends?)

Every single boy I can think of whose education is referred to in the series is sent to an English public school - and EBD makes a big deal about Elisaveta's father having been educated in England. And when she's widowed with growing children, doesn't José (do we ever know whether we are supposed to pronounce this the Spanish way?) say that the ex-King, now a cattle farmer in Australia, will pay for her brothers' education in England? I can't remember whether the implication is that he is only paying for the boys' education, not the girls, but I think I remember José saying they were strapped for cash.
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
To be fair, it's not unusual for royalty from other countries - these days usually from the Middle East - to be educated at British public schools.

It does amaze me the way that girls in the Swiss books just walk into top universities, though! How often are lessons interrupted so that girls can go off boating, ski-ing, etc? Not to mention all the time they spend "resting"! We never see anyone getting stressed over public exams the way they do in Malory Towers, and Josette is more or less told that she's making a fuss about nothing when she gets upset about the effect her illness (in Trials) will have on her revision.
Author:  JayB [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Quote:
EBD makes a big deal about Elisaveta's father having been educated in England.

Wasn't Elisaveta's grandmother - King Carol's mother - English? Given that it would be difficult for him to have attended school or university in Belsornia, because of his rank, education in England was probably a logical choice.

The alternatives I suppose would have been France, Germany or Austria, and relations between Austria and some of the Balkan states pre-1914 were quite dodgy. (I would like to know which side Belsornia was on in the First World War.)
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
JayB wrote:
Quote:
EBD makes a big deal about Elisaveta's father having been educated in England.

Wasn't Elisaveta's grandmother - King Carol's mother - English? Given that it would be difficult for him to have attended school or university in Belsornia, because of his rank, education in England was probably a logical choice.

The alternatives I suppose would have been France, Germany or Austria, and relations between Austria and some of the Balkan states pre-1914 were quite dodgy. (I would like to know which side Belsornia was on in the First World War.)


I quite like the idea of Elisaveta's mother (yes, she was English) being a kind of Marie of Romania character :D .
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
JayB wrote:
(I would like to know which side Belsornia was on in the First World War.)


Oh, it probably shifted about, rather like its Incredible Moving Borders!

I think the Marie of Roumania connection is a brilliant idea - wasn't 'Carol' a family name in her family, too? Someone could write a drabble called 'A Bahá’í at the CS'!
Author:  Millie [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Again, as someone said already, EBD just couldn't include all the old characters as she had to keep the story moving with current characters all the time (even though I read the later books almost solely because of the presence of older characters!).
I remember the first time I read a CS book I didn't like it at all as I couldn't figure out who all these older characters were and why I was supposed to be interested in them (I think it was one of the later Island books). Then a while later I went back and read School At and the other early ones and I fell in love!
Author:  Meg14 [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Quote:
(I would like to know which side Belsornia was on in the First World War.)


When Elisaveta flees to England in Highland Twins hasn't Belsornia been overrun by the Nazis. As I remember it the king has been smuggled out and Elisaveta has to run for her life and nearly gets turned in by a Quisling. I think I remember her saying that the country people of the next door country (is it called some like Mourania? Apologies I don't have the books on me!) scatter all the land with salt and then flood it to stop the Nazis being able to use the very abundant fields. The people of Belsornia also do something to stop the Nazis being able to use the mines. So the population in WWII are obviously anti-Nazi so my theory is that they were probably neutral and verging towards Britain in WWI but kept quiet about it. Bearing in mind how fluid their boarders were my suspicion is that they would have had had to be very careful or else they could have been invaded. I like inventing historical theories!! :D
Author:  Selena [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Sunglass wrote:
(Although it does sit a bit oddly with Joey in Island actively resisting Stephen going to boarding school and saying it will be bad enough when it happens in six or seven years. Why not send him to an international school in Switzerland, where he can come home on weekends?)



Stephen is not quite five years old in Island, which is extremely young to go to boarding school. I'm suprised a school would take boarders of that age to be honest.

Did Belsornia become a democracy in the end?
Author:  JayB [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Quote:
Did Belsornia become a democracy in the end?


We don't know that it wasn't a democracy under King Carol and his father (was his name Ridolfo?)

After the war, Belsornia like the rest of the Balkans and Eastern Europe came under Communist rule. Presumably in 1990 when the Eastern bloc collapsed Belsornia would have been free to choose its own form of government, but of course EBD wasn't still around to tell us about it!
Author:  Selena [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
JayB wrote:
Quote:
Did Belsornia become a democracy in the end?


We don't know that it wasn't a democracy under King Carol and his father (was his name Ridolfo?)

After the war, Belsornia like the rest of the Balkans and Eastern Europe came under Communist rule. Presumably in 1990 when the Eastern bloc collapsed Belsornia would have been free to choose its own form of government, but of course EBD wasn't still around to tell us about it!


Good point...i always assumed it was ruled by the King. :oops:
Author:  Sunglass [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Isn't there a mention somewhere, in relation to Joey going as lady in waiting to Elisaveta, to the Belsornians being a 'democratic people'? Though all it seems to mean in that specific context is that they don't mind a a foreign commoner taking a position at Court - but maybe there's a suggestion that there was an expectation that the people's will would be respected?

I've always vaguely assumed it was a constitutional monarchy - there's such an emphasis on Englishness in the Belsornian Court...?
Author:  Mia [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Selena wrote:
JayB wrote:
Quote:
Did Belsornia become a democracy in the end?


We don't know that it wasn't a democracy under King Carol and his father (was his name Ridolfo?)



Good point...i always assumed it was ruled by the King. :oops:


Do you mean it became a republic? :wink:
Author:  Selena [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Mia wrote:

Do you mean it became a republic? :wink:


i don't know - i've confused myself! :lol:

i thought the King had lots of power and ruled (sort of like Henry VIII style) and then maybe after the 2nd World War the people had more power, as they did not have a monarchy any more.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Belsornia had a Parliament and a Prime Minister - they're referred to at the end of Princess, when Jo visits.

(And even Henry VIII didn't have unlimited power - he had to deal with Parliament and powerful noblemen.)
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
We're told that Belsornia was annexed to the Soviet Union after the Second World War. I take this to mean that it became the 16th republic of the USSR; but I know that other people take it to mean that it remained independent but became a Soviet satellite state, like Poland, Hungary and the other "Eastern bloc" countries. In either case, there wouldn't have been too much democracy in the form of government after 1945 :( .

We aren't told a lot about Belsornia's history, but from the sounds of it it had been independent for many years and the royal family was of many years' standing, rather than it just having become independent of the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century or the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the 20th century like most other Balkan states. I would think that the king had ruled as an absolute monarch in traditional Ruritanian style until the early 20th century, but that the system had then been reformed to some form of constitutional monarchy as happened in Monaco.

Sorry - I have very serious problems remembering that Belsornia doesn't actually exist :oops: .
Author:  JayB [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
I think you should write the History of Belsornia, Alison! :D
Author:  Mia [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
JayB wrote:
I think you should write the History of Belsornia, Alison! :D


I second this! Please do! :D :D
Author:  Tor [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Thirded! Go on Alison.... pleeeeeeeaaaasssseeee!

And it would be an excellent way for an ignoramus like me to get some Balkan history into my head. I loved Black Lamb, Grey Falcon, but that is about it as far as my reading on the general region goes.

I reckon a search on you posts for 'Belsornia' would throw up a whole lot of 'source' material to start with!!!
Author:  delrima [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
What am I like... I Googled it (Belsornia) 194 results. This one is interesting http://www.nationstates.net/nation=belsornia-by-the-sea
- the national animal is the Rufus! Now who put this up I wonder? :lol:
Author:  JustJen [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elisaveta
Didn't someone write the history of Belsornia before the board got hacked?
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